Yeah I get that they created roguelite for games that are based on rng runs and has some sort of async progression and I think that has become a pretty practical genre to categorize a wide array of hands that share those traits.
But roguelike should be kept to games like nethack, pixel dungeon etc that share the basic concepts of rogue.
agree re roguelikes but roguelite seems far too broad to work as a genre? like if there was a 'combos' genre that included blazblue, bayonetta, and bejeweled
Combos are one specific element in a game, roguelite is the basic concept the game is built on. Also since when are genres very specific? Rocket League and Mario Tennis are both Sports games.
i think i agree with this which means i only dislike roguelite as a top level category (but see below). in your mario tennis example it might go something like
sports ¬ tennis ¬ arcade (as opposed to simulation)
a mario tennis where it would be practically impossible to win a randomly generated tournament without grinding out some progression would be
sports ¬ tennis ¬ roguelite
so it seems to me like roguelite is less useful as a genre rather than just being descriptive of a feature i suppose
I think the issue you're having is that you're treating them as categories and subcategories, like most things it's never that clean. It makes much more sense if you treat them as unordered tags. Arcade isn't a subcategory of tennis.
Say for instance you had a multiplayer racing simulator game, you could categorise that as multiplayer > racing > sim, but if you have a similar singleplayer game you have single player > racing > sim so clearly those aren't just subcategories of single/multiplayer.
You could try sim > racing > multiplayer, but what about your city building sims? Now it's your middle category that didn't work right.
If they're independent tags sim, racing, multiplayer you can change any one of them independently. If any one tag changes that changes how the game is played.
And yet I tend to like most games that fall into the "rouge lite" category. It feels too broad and yet also seems to work to classify games.
I think it may just be a bit like "RPG" or "Action" that are actually very wide categories that now have a lot of subcategories to help better explain them.
same. but considering that, it's still a bad name for a sub (sub sub) genre at best, not a top level one. your RPG and Action examples are quite right but it's easy to imagine games as being e.g. action > beat-em-up > roguelike or RPG > TBT> roguelike. it's the same level as isometric or coop imo
edit: you've helped me talk myself out of my own argument, now i want to spend all my money on combocore and get upset about the inevitable subsequent wave of combolikes
Let's be honest with ourselves combocore is really just another phrase for rhythm games, which let's you aggregate things like guitar hero (rythmncombos) and DMC (actioncombos), as it's all about hitting buttons at the right time interval. Surprisingly many darksouls also fall into the combocore/rythmn category - sekiro and Lies of P (with their parrying/dodging timing) which we'll now call soulcombos.
Now we just need to start promoting this through the steam tags.
There is a functional difference, though. Roguelikes start you from Zero everytime. Roguelites give you meta progression that you can bring into your next run.
I know theres a difference. I didnt say roguelike is the correct term for roguelites, but it has been and is used synonymously by many if not most people. Just like people call every electronic music with a rhythmic bassline techno even if it is progressive funk house.
Oh, after doing some research, it seems the person who wrote this article did not do theirs.
I'm pretty sure Don't Starve Together, Megabonk, and Elden Ring Nightreign (if you want to count that) all still beat out Mewgenics (especially Nightreign if we count it, by like such a large gap.)
The article is bunk, but oddly enough the all time high by Steamdb suggests it's around tied with DST, Megabonk, Hades II, and a few others at 115k-ish.
Nightreign, as AAA go, 313k at peak, lol.
You can still tell the article is bunk for comparing it to Stray as a cat game. Oh yeah, sure, while we're at it let's compare to Hello Kitty Island players, eh? AI logic. Lol
Gotta wonder where Binding of Isaac falls on the list since it's been out so long and it's players tend to be the ones that put hundreds, if not thousands, of hours into it.
The article is talking about concurrent play, which generally peaks near release for all genres, with a few exceptions (like Hollow Knights sleeper numbers). Isaac came out when there was relatively fewer players and it's a slow growth, so the original probably didn't have a very high concurrent count.
The remake is around 70k peak, although it's oddly high at 20k right now, perhaps because if Mewgenics.
Super worth picking up if you like grid based tactics type games. It has so much more depth than I was expecting, every run or two I’m getting some new twist or ability that makes it play quite differently to anything I’ve tried yet.
The game itself is really fucking good, I'll give them that, but I stopped playing the moment I learned about the cast list and McMillen doubling down on it. Incredibly disappointed in this centrist bullshit to the say the least.
Interesting take. You bring up a good point, but the game has been in development for 10 years and it's a really small cameo. I'm assuming most did the voice work for free or a small flat rate. It's not like you're supporting them with royalties every time the cat meows.
If you asked Ben Stiller to remove the Donald Trump cameo from Zoolander he'd probably give a similar answer despite Donald Trump being a far worse person and Ben Stiller publicly being a Democrat. I don't think it's a "centrist bullshit" position to work with people with wildly different views.
For me, it's just such a small issue to focus on and ruin something else you find enjoyable. It's one thing if McMillen was a vocal supporter of Israel or vocal MAGA. Like, I haven't watched a Tom Cruise movie in almost 2 decades because of his role in Scientology, but I watch Zoolander like once a year.
I get that, but to me it's honestly less about the inclusions, especially given the dev timeline, but more about defending it so staunchly today with his whole "balancing out" shtick. It doesn't seem like anyone was actually paid for it, let alone under contract, so it would've been so easy to just go "yeah this is kind of fucked up after everything that's happened, let's cut these out before release" instead of doubling down on it and defending the inclusion of literal nazis and rapists.
I read his take more like: "the game is edgy, offensive, and gross anyway. If you are offended by someone we had do 3 minutes of meows who turned out to be a terrible person, you probably can't handle other content in the game." And "it'd be cool if we get a bunch of people that had a big influence on internet culture in the last 20 years do a cameo"
It felt more like an apolitical take than a centrist take. For me, that's fine. I understand your perspective also and generally I agree.
"yeah this is kind of fucked up after everything that's happened, let's cut these out before release"
I mostly agree. I think there's a couple reasons why it didn't happen though. First one is he just didn't know. He was probably more focused on other things than if some of the cameos in are from problematic people. The other reason is that if he did remove them he would anticipate a headline like "McMillen removes cameo from Conservative Internet personality in new game" and he wanted to game to stay apolitical.
I'm really enjoying the game. And think McMillen could have done better. But if I stopped playing/reading/watching/using every piece of media from someone I disagree with a little then I wouldn't be able to do anything ever.
Eh, I would prefer that they weren't in, but there's 100+ voice actors in it and their only contributions is literally meowing. It's such a microscopic part of a phenomenal game, I can look past it.
Yeah honestly, like I can't say I forgive his past shit but he's absolutely come a LONG way from those days, credit where it's due. I'm more concerned about Edmund including literal nazis (the Kleins) and an actual rapist (Chrischan), along with not clearly communicating any of this to the people he pulled in. On top of that, he pulls the centrist card so hard to defend himself.
I used to love this dude's games, sunk SO much time into the original SMB and both Isaacs, but he's clearly stuck in 2012 4chan.
It's a decent enough game, but I don't really love it. The items are all so boring and the passives aren't much better. Wish there was actual run-changing items like in Isaac.
Edmund has said he specifically did this on purpose. There's no singular game winning item. The power comes from combinations. He added passives and items that seem boring at face value but get better when synergizing with something else.
With all that said I think the breeding is what will make runs broken. Good items will be an unnecessary cherry on top when your cats are overpowered from the start.
Yes the synergies are what makes it but im hoping i unlock recollection later because there are some synergies I know will be broken if I can just get all thr perks/abilities at the same time.
The humor and style definitely gives me a 2000s internet flash game vibe. I don’t necessarily mean that as a jab, it’s just kinda the vibe. Doesn’t look like my cup of tea though.
That's surprising, I bought it but found I didn't really care for the humor and all that so I returned it. Maybe I'll pick it up again someday if I feel in the mood for what it was
Watched Cohh play it, it's a pass for me. The gameplay loop isn't my style. But it was fun watching someone go from 'this game is so good!' to just anger, lol. Some of the music is kind of catchy.
55 Comments
kip@piefed.zip · 30 pts · 189d
i'll accept that roguelite means fuck all except 'has meta progression' but none of the games mentioned in this article are roguelikes
MrFinnbean@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 189d
Well its does not mean "fuck all". It means the games are run based and randomised.
Also Rogue had zero meta progression.
kip@piefed.zip · 3 pts · 188d
of course you're right that a core feature of roguelikes is that each new game starts from scratch. it's roguelite that is vague
MirrorGiraffe@piefed.social · 18 pts · 189d
Yeah I get that they created roguelite for games that are based on rng runs and has some sort of async progression and I think that has become a pretty practical genre to categorize a wide array of hands that share those traits.
But roguelike should be kept to games like nethack, pixel dungeon etc that share the basic concepts of rogue.
kip@piefed.zip · 7 pts · 189d
agree re roguelikes but roguelite seems far too broad to work as a genre? like if there was a 'combos' genre that included blazblue, bayonetta, and bejeweled
tomi000@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 189d
Combos are one specific element in a game, roguelite is the basic concept the game is built on. Also since when are genres very specific? Rocket League and Mario Tennis are both Sports games.
kip@piefed.zip · 0 pts · 189d
i think i agree with this which means i only dislike roguelite as a top level category (but see below). in your mario tennis example it might go something like
sports ¬ tennis ¬ arcade (as opposed to simulation)
a mario tennis where it would be practically impossible to win a randomly generated tournament without grinding out some progression would be
sports ¬ tennis ¬ roguelite
so it seems to me like roguelite is less useful as a genre rather than just being descriptive of a feature i suppose
my_hat_stinks@programming.dev · 6 pts · 189d
I think the issue you're having is that you're treating them as categories and subcategories, like most things it's never that clean. It makes much more sense if you treat them as unordered tags. Arcade isn't a subcategory of tennis.
Say for instance you had a multiplayer racing simulator game, you could categorise that as multiplayer > racing > sim, but if you have a similar singleplayer game you have single player > racing > sim so clearly those aren't just subcategories of single/multiplayer.
You could try sim > racing > multiplayer, but what about your city building sims? Now it's your middle category that didn't work right.
If they're independent tags sim, racing, multiplayer you can change any one of them independently. If any one tag changes that changes how the game is played.
kip@piefed.zip · 2 pts · 188d
this makes sense, appreciate the perspective
jacksilver@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 189d
And yet I tend to like most games that fall into the "rouge lite" category. It feels too broad and yet also seems to work to classify games.
I think it may just be a bit like "RPG" or "Action" that are actually very wide categories that now have a lot of subcategories to help better explain them.
kip@piefed.zip · 4 pts · 189d
same. but considering that, it's still a bad name for a sub (sub sub) genre at best, not a top level one. your RPG and Action examples are quite right but it's easy to imagine games as being e.g. action > beat-em-up > roguelike or RPG > TBT> roguelike. it's the same level as isometric or coop imo
edit: you've helped me talk myself out of my own argument, now i want to spend all my money on combocore and get upset about the inevitable subsequent wave of combolikes
jacksilver@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 189d
Let's be honest with ourselves combocore is really just another phrase for rhythm games, which let's you aggregate things like guitar hero (rythmncombos) and DMC (actioncombos), as it's all about hitting buttons at the right time interval. Surprisingly many darksouls also fall into the combocore/rythmn category - sekiro and Lies of P (with their parrying/dodging timing) which we'll now call soulcombos.
Now we just need to start promoting this through the steam tags.
kip@piefed.zip · 2 pts · 188d
now that's initiative. and steam tags could hardly be much worse anyway
tomi000@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 189d
Roguelike was the term generally used for all roguelites before they became so popular someone invented a separate word for it.
Blaster_M@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 187d
There is a functional difference, though. Roguelikes start you from Zero everytime. Roguelites give you meta progression that you can bring into your next run.
tomi000@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 187d
I know theres a difference. I didnt say roguelike is the correct term for roguelites, but it has been and is used synonymously by many if not most people. Just like people call every electronic music with a rhythmic bassline techno even if it is progressive funk house.
chunes@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 189d
tomi000@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 189d
No more like millions of players didnt play Rogue and didnt see the necessity to create a new word for a (at the time) super niche genre
IronBird@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 188d
semantics is the lowest form of discussion
justsquigglez@leminal.space · 22 pts · 189d
Hot damn, that's actually wild considering his original game being so popular already, and also the first Hades AND Vampire Survivors existing.
Definitely gonna pick it up myself at some point soon.
justsquigglez@leminal.space · 40 pts · 189d
Oh, after doing some research, it seems the person who wrote this article did not do theirs. I'm pretty sure Don't Starve Together, Megabonk, and Elden Ring Nightreign (if you want to count that) all still beat out Mewgenics (especially Nightreign if we count it, by like such a large gap.)
taiyang@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 189d
The article is bunk, but oddly enough the all time high by Steamdb suggests it's around tied with DST, Megabonk, Hades II, and a few others at 115k-ish.
Nightreign, as AAA go, 313k at peak, lol.
You can still tell the article is bunk for comparing it to Stray as a cat game. Oh yeah, sure, while we're at it let's compare to Hello Kitty Island players, eh? AI logic. Lol
I_Has_A_Hat@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 189d
Gotta wonder where Binding of Isaac falls on the list since it's been out so long and it's players tend to be the ones that put hundreds, if not thousands, of hours into it.
taiyang@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 189d
The article is talking about concurrent play, which generally peaks near release for all genres, with a few exceptions (like Hollow Knights sleeper numbers). Isaac came out when there was relatively fewer players and it's a slow growth, so the original probably didn't have a very high concurrent count.
The remake is around 70k peak, although it's oddly high at 20k right now, perhaps because if Mewgenics.
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de · 7 pts · 189d
The previous record was actually Hades 2 which surprised me too.
Hazardous_area@piefed.world · 5 pts · 189d
Super worth picking up if you like grid based tactics type games. It has so much more depth than I was expecting, every run or two I’m getting some new twist or ability that makes it play quite differently to anything I’ve tried yet.
Plus the sound track is great.
nfreak@lemmy.ml · 19 pts · 189d
The game itself is really fucking good, I'll give them that, but I stopped playing the moment I learned about the cast list and McMillen doubling down on it. Incredibly disappointed in this centrist bullshit to the say the least.
jeff@programming.dev · 7 pts · 188d
Interesting take. You bring up a good point, but the game has been in development for 10 years and it's a really small cameo. I'm assuming most did the voice work for free or a small flat rate. It's not like you're supporting them with royalties every time the cat meows.
If you asked Ben Stiller to remove the Donald Trump cameo from Zoolander he'd probably give a similar answer despite Donald Trump being a far worse person and Ben Stiller publicly being a Democrat. I don't think it's a "centrist bullshit" position to work with people with wildly different views.
For me, it's just such a small issue to focus on and ruin something else you find enjoyable. It's one thing if McMillen was a vocal supporter of Israel or vocal MAGA. Like, I haven't watched a Tom Cruise movie in almost 2 decades because of his role in Scientology, but I watch Zoolander like once a year.
nfreak@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 188d
I get that, but to me it's honestly less about the inclusions, especially given the dev timeline, but more about defending it so staunchly today with his whole "balancing out" shtick. It doesn't seem like anyone was actually paid for it, let alone under contract, so it would've been so easy to just go "yeah this is kind of fucked up after everything that's happened, let's cut these out before release" instead of doubling down on it and defending the inclusion of literal nazis and rapists.
jeff@programming.dev · 6 pts · 188d
I read his take more like: "the game is edgy, offensive, and gross anyway. If you are offended by someone we had do 3 minutes of meows who turned out to be a terrible person, you probably can't handle other content in the game." And "it'd be cool if we get a bunch of people that had a big influence on internet culture in the last 20 years do a cameo"
It felt more like an apolitical take than a centrist take. For me, that's fine. I understand your perspective also and generally I agree.
I mostly agree. I think there's a couple reasons why it didn't happen though. First one is he just didn't know. He was probably more focused on other things than if some of the cameos in are from problematic people. The other reason is that if he did remove them he would anticipate a headline like "McMillen removes cameo from Conservative Internet personality in new game" and he wanted to game to stay apolitical.
I'm really enjoying the game. And think McMillen could have done better. But if I stopped playing/reading/watching/using every piece of media from someone I disagree with a little then I wouldn't be able to do anything ever.
ventusvir@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 188d
Eh, I would prefer that they weren't in, but there's 100+ voice actors in it and their only contributions is literally meowing. It's such a microscopic part of a phenomenal game, I can look past it.
AWistfulNihilist@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 189d
Ugh I know, imagine playing a game and hearing idubbz, the n-word/f-slur guy. Fucking gross.
Zirconium@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 189d
idubbz changed for the better tho
nfreak@lemmy.ml · 18 pts · 189d
Yeah honestly, like I can't say I forgive his past shit but he's absolutely come a LONG way from those days, credit where it's due. I'm more concerned about Edmund including literal nazis (the Kleins) and an actual rapist (Chrischan), along with not clearly communicating any of this to the people he pulled in. On top of that, he pulls the centrist card so hard to defend himself.
I used to love this dude's games, sunk SO much time into the original SMB and both Isaacs, but he's clearly stuck in 2012 4chan.
FooBarrington@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 189d
Could you share the content of the Bluesky post? It's not visible without logging in.
nfreak@lemmy.ml · 9 pts · 188d
FooBarrington@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 188d
Thank you!
AWistfulNihilist@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 189d
I was just memeing on idubbz, Chrischan is in the game, fucking oedipal rapist Chrischan.
Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 189d
WTF?! Why?
peacefulpixel@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 189d
SailorFuzz@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 189d
Then I guess no one should bother changing. Good talk.
chunes@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 189d
It's a decent enough game, but I don't really love it. The items are all so boring and the passives aren't much better. Wish there was actual run-changing items like in Isaac.
glitches_brew@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 188d
Edmund has said he specifically did this on purpose. There's no singular game winning item. The power comes from combinations. He added passives and items that seem boring at face value but get better when synergizing with something else.
With all that said I think the breeding is what will make runs broken. Good items will be an unnecessary cherry on top when your cats are overpowered from the start.
razzazzika@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 188d
Yes the synergies are what makes it but im hoping i unlock recollection later because there are some synergies I know will be broken if I can just get all thr perks/abilities at the same time.
Redacted@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 189d
From what ive seen the crazy stuff is quite a ways into the game, too much of a time commitment for me
jeff@programming.dev · 2 pts · 188d
I've played a bit now. My first broken build was probably around 30 hours in. Which, yeah, is a bit.
I enjoyed the game before I started seeing broken builds. It's still a solid tactics game. But it's a genre I like.
UnspecificGravity@piefed.social · 10 pts · 189d
I can't even figure out what "rougelike" is supposed to mean anymore.
BuboScandiacus@mander.xyz · 16 pts · 189d
It means “similar to red”
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 4 pts · 188d
There are so many roguelikes and not enough rougelikes. 😔
chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 13 pts · 189d
The headline says "roguelite", the Berlin Interpretation is safe for now
catalyst@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 188d
The humor and style definitely gives me a 2000s internet flash game vibe. I don’t necessarily mean that as a jab, it’s just kinda the vibe. Doesn’t look like my cup of tea though.
wilmo@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 188d
I mean that is what Edmund McMillan started as, up until the remake of Binding of Isaac really
catalyst@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 187d
Well that makes a lot of sense then! Haha.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 188d
That's surprising, I bought it but found I didn't really care for the humor and all that so I returned it. Maybe I'll pick it up again someday if I feel in the mood for what it was
CaptPretentious@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 187d
Watched Cohh play it, it's a pass for me. The gameplay loop isn't my style. But it was fun watching someone go from 'this game is so good!' to just anger, lol. Some of the music is kind of catchy.
wobblyunionist@piefed.social · -6 pts · 189d
bryndos@fedia.io · 9 pts · 189d
It is a practice that is extremely widespread in domesticated animals though.
IronBird@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 188d
touch grass