Remembering Hitler and the abhorrent shit nazis did has not prevented nazism from rising again. If we want to be really pessimistic we're doomed either way.
Actually I had two countries in mind when I made the comment. The US has taken great pride in defeating Nazi germany. But I get where you're coming from in the context of the US, the American people don't have first-hand experience with fascism so they probably don't make the connection that the horrific shit they're seeing is fascism.
However the other country was what I had more in mind, Israel. Hopefully you're not going "hold on, what?" because Israel is doing some pretty nazi shit. Jewish people don't just have first-hand experience with nazism, they have a generational wound left by the Nazis. And in many ways Israel exists solely because of that generational wound. And yet Israel is the prime example how this kind of remembrance of Hitler and nazis doesn't prevent it from happening again, because they're now the ones riding on the ethnic supremacy, dehumanization, collective punishment, etc. ideological eradication train. And furthermore countries like Germany, who to this day harbor collective shame for doing Nazi shit, are not only unwilling to call it out but are in support of it. And it doesn't even need to be Germany, quite a lot of countries in Europe support Israel, not because their daddy US tells them but because they themselves want to.
So no, those historical lessons do not prevent bad things from repeating.
I think that story do help, but it's not the only thing to prevent, it's like saying "Wear a helmet when cycling so you don’t hurt yourself" of course wearing an helmet isn't the only thing that you have to do on a bike;
In this case with fascism we can see that fascism is being justified by religion which kinda influence how people see it aswell, then we add the international component - american media influences us - and then conservatism that never really left many european countries which usually also tend to end up in a fascist regime, conservative countries and parties will do everthing to win, even being fascist friends and that's a sad reality
If we're talking the US here, Nazis supposedly came to the US to get ideas on how to oppress people, as the US was doing such a good job of it. I'm not at all surprised at what is happening in the US right now.
The quote above is from a different interview out panel thingie and is his response to someone asking why he doesn't think we should do more about school shootings. I'm pulling this entirely from memory so I'm paraphrasing a bit.
It’s worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year
For context, he was talking about school shootings. He was advocating for 8 year olds being shot and killed in schools so people could have a gun to go shopping at Wal Mart.
but people failed to realize that mediocre white men should be able to live a happy and fulfilling lives, too. like all of us should. they used to be able to do that by doing less skilled labour like manufacturing etc, and still be able to afford a home and decent life. that's until capital possessing elites decided that it is more profitable to use cheap off shore labour. that as well as worsening inequality left them miserable and without purpose.
too bad centrist politicians are mostly being bought out by capital, that's why opportunist grifters like Charlie Kirk was able to fill the vacuum that was left, and poison the mind of these people.
This is why, if you are going to caucus with Democrats, its important to insist on universalism in whatever social programs get focused on for a platform. Democrats look towards their technocrats to support 'means testing' as a way to split hairs and preserve capitalist ideals while offering soft changes on social programs. The result is that we end up with historically racist and sexist programs (look into the origination and implementation of social security).
The answer is straightforwards. Raise the floor. Programs need to be universal, period. There is no cost savings in piecemeal solutions or means testing; its an intentional way to sabotage the social project.
I have a hard time celebrating anyone's death (there are a few I'm looking forward too though), but it's hard to classify Kirk's as undeserved. Hell, he preemptively justified his own death in that golden quote about "some shooting deaths are necessary in order to uphold the 2nd amendment".
I personally don’t think people should be shot for things they say.
I think watching an old, decrepit Kirk fade into obscurity would be a lot more satisfying.
On one hand I agree, there could have been worse outcomes for him that he would have deserved, but on the other hand it is good that he can no longer cause any more harm himself
To be fair there are a lot of very successful college and more than you might imagine high school drop outs. The difference between them and Kirk is that they're still alive.
Charlie Kirk was the human equivalent of an unfixed tomcat that hangs out in the street and yells at everyone, harasses other cats trying to go about their lives, and spreads disease and discord until they get hit by a car or someone euthanizes them.
It's objectively the truth, I agree entirely with all of it.
I've got notes on how to adapt this identical message in a way to maximally influence mediocre white men, but It's pretty clearly not for that purpose. It could be, though.
This fucking chud has been dead for how long now and y'all are still talking about him? He was a piece of shit and now he's a dead piece of shit. Why are you keeping this neck bleeding bitch relevant?
I think his assassination was orchestrated by the GOP considering his wife's reaction and the reaction of elite republicans. Regardless of his opinions, I don't think we should celebrate something that they want us to celebrate
This post is a perfect example of everything people criticize about the modern “left.” Not because it disagrees with Charlie Kirk, but because it reduces an entire person to race, gender, and resentment instead of engaging with ideas.
You can think his views were wrong, shallow, or even outright harmful, but dismissing someone as just “a mediocre white man” is exactly the kind of identity based tribalism the left claims to oppose.
And regardless of how much people hated his politics, Charlie Kirk openly debated people who disagreed with him. He went onto hostile campuses, argued face to face, answered questions, and defended his positions publicly. That already puts him above a huge part of modern political culture, where too many people prefer censorship, deplatforming, mob shaming, or labeling disagreement as “harm.”
As for myself, I didn’t agree with everything Charlie Kirk said, and I still don’t. But I deeply respect what he was doing. Peaceful exchange of ideas.
I’m an atheist myself, raised Christian, and honestly I would have loved debating him about religion. Not because I think I would magically “win,” but because that kind of respectful clash of ideas is healthy. People sharpen each other through discussion. Through challenge. Through disagreement.
No person is an island. We’re social creatures. People grow by debating, listening, challenging each other, and trying to understand different perspectives. Open discourse is infinitely healthier than censorship and ideological purity tests.
Ironically, many of the people constantly screaming “fascist” are the same ones trying to silence, deplatform, shame, or censor anyone who disagrees with them. That mentality, “agree with me or you are evil and must be silenced,” is itself authoritarian.
A real democracy requires tolerance for disagreement. It requires accepting that there can be multiple ways to solve problems, even if you strongly prefer one over another.
The post itself proves the point more than it refutes it. Instead of counterarguments, it goes straight to race, identity, and contempt. No discussion, no nuance, no engagement with why millions of people listened to him in the first place. Just “white man bad.”
You can despise someone’s ideas and still defend their right to speak and debate openly. In fact, that’s the entire point of free discourse and freedom of speech.
77 Comments
_stranger_@lemmy.world · 181 pts · 115d
I hope he's remembered for losing a bad faith argument in the most ironic way possible.
fullsquare@awful.systems · 147 pts · 115d
i hope he's not remembered at all, like his cause (someday)
_stranger_@lemmy.world · 52 pts · 115d
bitjunkie@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 115d
So we're doing the "doomed to repeat it" thing again in like 80 years, got it
Goodeye8@piefed.social · 31 pts · 115d
Remembering Hitler and the abhorrent shit nazis did has not prevented nazism from rising again. If we want to be really pessimistic we're doomed either way.
psycho_driver@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 115d
I would have hoped it would have taken at least 100+ years, but nope.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 3 pts · 115d
I mean, the place where nazism is taking foot again is the place where nazism wasn't at the door and the story is barelly told to the children
Goodeye8@piefed.social · 3 pts · 115d
Actually I had two countries in mind when I made the comment. The US has taken great pride in defeating Nazi germany. But I get where you're coming from in the context of the US, the American people don't have first-hand experience with fascism so they probably don't make the connection that the horrific shit they're seeing is fascism.
However the other country was what I had more in mind, Israel. Hopefully you're not going "hold on, what?" because Israel is doing some pretty nazi shit. Jewish people don't just have first-hand experience with nazism, they have a generational wound left by the Nazis. And in many ways Israel exists solely because of that generational wound. And yet Israel is the prime example how this kind of remembrance of Hitler and nazis doesn't prevent it from happening again, because they're now the ones riding on the ethnic supremacy, dehumanization, collective punishment, etc. ideological eradication train. And furthermore countries like Germany, who to this day harbor collective shame for doing Nazi shit, are not only unwilling to call it out but are in support of it. And it doesn't even need to be Germany, quite a lot of countries in Europe support Israel, not because their daddy US tells them but because they themselves want to.
So no, those historical lessons do not prevent bad things from repeating.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 1 pts · 115d
I think that story do help, but it's not the only thing to prevent, it's like saying "Wear a helmet when cycling so you don’t hurt yourself" of course wearing an helmet isn't the only thing that you have to do on a bike;
In this case with fascism we can see that fascism is being justified by religion which kinda influence how people see it aswell, then we add the international component - american media influences us - and then conservatism that never really left many european countries which usually also tend to end up in a fascist regime, conservative countries and parties will do everthing to win, even being fascist friends and that's a sad reality
farting_gorilla@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 115d
If we're talking the US here, Nazis supposedly came to the US to get ideas on how to oppress people, as the US was doing such a good job of it. I'm not at all surprised at what is happening in the US right now.
wuffah@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 115d
I swear to god, it’s like The Game. I go months without thinking about Charlie Kirk and when it happens I feel like I’ve lost.
Sorry, by the way.
IMALlama@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 115d
Oh man, I hadn't thought about that game in at least a decade. Thanks.
Patrikvo@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 115d
Goddammed. Guys. I lost The Game.
Mac@mander.xyz · 4 pts · 115d
You hope who isn't remembered
U7826391786239@piefed.zip · 35 pts · 115d
greyscale@lemmy.grey.ooo · 11 pts · 115d
I don't really want to watch the video of him talking again, or of a human dying, but is that actually what he was saying when his neck just did that?
ironhydroxide@sh.itjust.works · 37 pts · 115d
No. His last words were insinuating that mass shooters were mostly gang violence.
greyscale@lemmy.grey.ooo · 10 pts · 115d
Fair enough. The irony would be too thick, if it were so.
Skullgrid@lemmy.world · 26 pts · 115d
Paraphrased:
Hasherm0n@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 115d
The quote above is from a different interview out panel thingie and is his response to someone asking why he doesn't think we should do more about school shootings. I'm pulling this entirely from memory so I'm paraphrasing a bit.
PhoenixDog@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 115d
For context, he was talking about school shootings. He was advocating for 8 year olds being shot and killed in schools so people could have a gun to go shopping at Wal Mart.
U7826391786239@piefed.zip · 4 pts · 115d
Hello_there@fedia.io · 74 pts · 115d
Spent his life arguing against the public good. Ended his life as a fountain.
U7826391786239@piefed.zip · 8 pts · 115d
nialv7@lemmy.world · 47 pts · 115d
but people failed to realize that mediocre white men should be able to live a happy and fulfilling lives, too. like all of us should. they used to be able to do that by doing less skilled labour like manufacturing etc, and still be able to afford a home and decent life. that's until capital possessing elites decided that it is more profitable to use cheap off shore labour. that as well as worsening inequality left them miserable and without purpose.
too bad centrist politicians are mostly being bought out by capital, that's why opportunist grifters like Charlie Kirk was able to fill the vacuum that was left, and poison the mind of these people.
TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 115d
This is why, if you are going to caucus with Democrats, its important to insist on universalism in whatever social programs get focused on for a platform. Democrats look towards their technocrats to support 'means testing' as a way to split hairs and preserve capitalist ideals while offering soft changes on social programs. The result is that we end up with historically racist and sexist programs (look into the origination and implementation of social security).
The answer is straightforwards. Raise the floor. Programs need to be universal, period. There is no cost savings in piecemeal solutions or means testing; its an intentional way to sabotage the social project.
kilgore_trout@feddit.it · 7 pts · 115d
No one is talking to mediocre white men about their worries and dreams.
Zephorah@discuss.online · 6 pts · 115d
Someone paid him.
Photonic@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 115d
You’re not seriously suggesting Kirk came to fame on his own naturally without massive funding from big corporations and CPAC?
avidamoeba@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 115d
Yeah the meme while funny is a bit too radlib and as such plays idpol with different parts of the working class.
wander1236@sh.itjust.works · 46 pts · 115d
Not that I disagree with the message, but why is most of it highlighted?
Asafum@lemmy.world · 78 pts · 115d
Murse@slrpnk.net · 54 pts · 115d
TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world · 27 pts · 115d
toothpaste_sandwich@thebrainbin.org · 4 pts · 115d
Thanks I hate it.
PhoenixDog@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 115d
I don't.
TragicNotCute@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 115d
Needs more JPEG and arrows. I’m not quite following.
Chivera@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 115d
Yeah and I need a video of one of those runner games on top to keep my focus
wander1236@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 115d
You got me there
criss_cross@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 115d
Thanks for the helper arrows. I wasn’t able to comprehend what the post was saying without them
Saapas@piefed.zip · 1 pts · 115d
I was wondering the same. Defeats the usual purpose. Maybe it is trying to grab your attention and hold it
DarkerRadical@lemmy.world · 38 pts · 115d
His death was hilarious and I'm glad it happened
psycho_driver@lemmy.world · 48 pts · 115d
I have a hard time celebrating anyone's death (there are a few I'm looking forward too though), but it's hard to classify Kirk's as undeserved. Hell, he preemptively justified his own death in that golden quote about "some shooting deaths are necessary in order to uphold the 2nd amendment".
gurty@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 115d
I personally don’t think people should be shot for things they say. I think watching an old, decrepit Kirk fade into obscurity would be a lot more satisfying.
PhoenixDog@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 115d
The problem with that is the decades he would continue to sow discourse and spread hate.
666dollarfootlong@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 115d
On one hand I agree, there could have been worse outcomes for him that he would have deserved, but on the other hand it is good that he can no longer cause any more harm himself
Taleya@aussie.zone · 4 pts · 115d
I'm not celebrating, but the world is objectively a better place without him
FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 115d
Sidhean@piefed.social · 8 pts · 115d
Every time I do it makes me laugh, How did his shirt get so red, And what the hell is up with Charlie's head?
bilb@lemmy.ml · 10 pts · 115d
Counting or not counting gang violence?
DagwoodIII@piefed.social · 24 pts · 115d
When he couldn't get into West Point he was too much of a baby to just join up.
If he couldn't get the prettiest costume he wasn't going to play soldier.
nagaram@startrek.website · 23 pts · 115d
As a mediocre white guy who dropped out of college
Fuck that guy
Dozzi92@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 115d
I also am a mediocre white guy who dropped out of college. And to top it off, I entered a field dominated by women. Am I DEI?
Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 115d
No you're just qualified
postcapitalism@lemmy.today · 23 pts · 115d
Who is Charlie Kirk?
DupaCycki@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 115d
You, me, others. It's us. We are Charlie Kirk.
SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org · 10 pts · 115d
Je suis Charlie.
Karl@literature.cafe · 0 pts · 115d
PhoenixDog@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 115d
A white man who leaned left.
psycho_driver@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 115d
To be fair there are a lot of very successful college and more than you might imagine high school drop outs. The difference between them and Kirk is that they're still alive.
explodicle@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 115d
Yeah but they didn't get involved in gang violence like he did.
frustrated_phagocytosis@fedia.io · 11 pts · 115d
Charlie Kirk was the human equivalent of an unfixed tomcat that hangs out in the street and yells at everyone, harasses other cats trying to go about their lives, and spreads disease and discord until they get hit by a car or someone euthanizes them.
PhoenixDog@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 115d
Boy do I have some good news for you!
frustrated_phagocytosis@fedia.io · 2 pts · 115d
Kristi Noem approves this message
tanisnikana@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 115d
Who was Charlie Kirk again?
III@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 115d
I tried looking him up and all the results are for someone named Erika Kirk. I think they might be someone who transitioned. Good for her.
BagOfHeavyStones@piefed.social · 8 pts · 115d
Some kind of breakfast cereal I think.
A_norny_mousse@piefed.zip · 4 pts · 115d
A spaceship Captain?
HonoraryMancunian@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 115d
No, you're thinking of James T Kirk. Charlie Kirk was the guy who went to Candy Mountain
PieMePlenty@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 115d
Charlie! Charlie! Charlie!
Omnipitaph@reddthat.com · 10 pts · 115d
Why are we still talking about this guy?
He was murdered, he's dead, he's no longer an issue. We have LIVING people who STILL support the same shit he did.
Sgt_choke_n_stroke@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 115d
He got the public execution he advocated for
Windex007@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 115d
It's objectively the truth, I agree entirely with all of it.
I've got notes on how to adapt this identical message in a way to maximally influence mediocre white men, but It's pretty clearly not for that purpose. It could be, though.
notsosure@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 115d
Ah yes, Charlie Kirk, I vaguely recall that guy, how time flies.
lemonhead2@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 115d
there's one important thing u forgot. he was rich. so what he said mattered.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 115d
Mediocre?!??! Dude had an absolutely amazing head-to-face ratio.
sudo@lemmy.today · 4 pts · 115d
This fucking chud has been dead for how long now and y'all are still talking about him? He was a piece of shit and now he's a dead piece of shit. Why are you keeping this neck bleeding bitch relevant?
FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 115d
SourDrink@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 115d
Shanespeare has a new video about him and his widow.
wub@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 115d
I think his assassination was orchestrated by the GOP considering his wife's reaction and the reaction of elite republicans. Regardless of his opinions, I don't think we should celebrate something that they want us to celebrate
StarryPhoenix97@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 115d
MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 115d
xta@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 115d
This post is a perfect example of everything people criticize about the modern “left.” Not because it disagrees with Charlie Kirk, but because it reduces an entire person to race, gender, and resentment instead of engaging with ideas.
You can think his views were wrong, shallow, or even outright harmful, but dismissing someone as just “a mediocre white man” is exactly the kind of identity based tribalism the left claims to oppose.
And regardless of how much people hated his politics, Charlie Kirk openly debated people who disagreed with him. He went onto hostile campuses, argued face to face, answered questions, and defended his positions publicly. That already puts him above a huge part of modern political culture, where too many people prefer censorship, deplatforming, mob shaming, or labeling disagreement as “harm.”
As for myself, I didn’t agree with everything Charlie Kirk said, and I still don’t. But I deeply respect what he was doing. Peaceful exchange of ideas.
I’m an atheist myself, raised Christian, and honestly I would have loved debating him about religion. Not because I think I would magically “win,” but because that kind of respectful clash of ideas is healthy. People sharpen each other through discussion. Through challenge. Through disagreement.
No person is an island. We’re social creatures. People grow by debating, listening, challenging each other, and trying to understand different perspectives. Open discourse is infinitely healthier than censorship and ideological purity tests.
Ironically, many of the people constantly screaming “fascist” are the same ones trying to silence, deplatform, shame, or censor anyone who disagrees with them. That mentality, “agree with me or you are evil and must be silenced,” is itself authoritarian.
A real democracy requires tolerance for disagreement. It requires accepting that there can be multiple ways to solve problems, even if you strongly prefer one over another.
The post itself proves the point more than it refutes it. Instead of counterarguments, it goes straight to race, identity, and contempt. No discussion, no nuance, no engagement with why millions of people listened to him in the first place. Just “white man bad.”
You can despise someone’s ideas and still defend their right to speak and debate openly. In fact, that’s the entire point of free discourse and freedom of speech.