I mean, while she absolutely does not look great, this is also the expected condition for a ship that's been at sea for 200+ days without even a port call. Saltwater is hell on metal, and paint can only do so much for so long.
Trump voters are braindead. Now we have sailers jumping off the boat to their deaths. Whole country is a hopeless cesspool of income inequality, job insecurity, skyrocketing cost of food, while housing costs, education costs, and healthcare costs are wildly unaffordable. Half of the population seems to be in some hated minority group (non Christian, non white, non cis, lgbt, disabled, autistic, or whatever boogeyman) these idiots can hate rather than focus on the real enemies manipulating them.
It's heartbreaking to see it in your family and neighbors. They voted their country away to own the libs. They don't give a shit about the kids they sent to die in this stupid war. Or those kids they sent to rot on a boat.
At least they were able to prevent those two trans kids from playing sports I guess.
Even if it is expected and has no effect on the carrier's performance, the optics are pretty bad regardless. Half of its job is projecting power, and a rusty ship doesn't hit the same. Looks like soviet tech in western representations, working but barely
I have no idea if that includes crew, food, aircraft, armaments, and everything else. If it does, that's not all that insane, or I should say I'm not surprised at least.
Given the size and complexity of these things I wouldn't be surprised if less than a quarter was allocated to elements outside of ship maintenance. Ships are expensive as hell to maintain and always have been.
I suspect the aircraft are a big expense too. They're also expensive to maintain, and these ones are constantly surrounded by salt water. They have a lot less room for degradation than the ship does. It's fine for the ship to get a little rust, but a fighter jet probably can't afford any.
Probably but also you can probably do a good bit of proactive maintenance on them and otherwise work a bit more cleanly to keep the costs down. Can't really do that for a ship.
I want to be clear about something before anyone interprets this as me defending Trump: I am not a Trump supporter. I consider him one of the worst presidents in U.S. history, and I have very little interest in defending either him or his political agenda.
That is precisely why I have a problem with memes like this being presented as factual arguments.
The USS Abraham Lincoln really did return to port after an extraordinarily long deployment. The photograph is real, and the ship genuinely looks rough after spending months at sea. But using that photograph as evidence that Trump somehow left the U.S. military looking like this is misleading. The Lincoln had just completed a 286 day deployment, including roughly 208 consecutive days at sea and about 200 days in a combat zone. That is actually a far more legitimate thing to criticize. Keeping a carrier and its crew deployed for that length of time raises serious questions about operational tempo, maintenance, readiness, crew fatigue, and the strain being placed on the Navy. Those are substantive criticisms that deserve discussion.
Instead, we get this stupid little meme that takes a completely legitimate photograph, strips away all of its context, and presents it as though it is evidence of something it does not actually demonstrate. That is intentionally misleading the people who see it, and then encouraging them to repeat the misinformation because it supports an agenda.
That's the problem I keep seeing on Lemmy: a legitimate political point gets wrapped in misinformation because the misinformation makes the meme more effective. People then repeat it because it supports a conclusion they already agree with.
I don't think that's acceptable simply because the target is Trump.
One of the things that infuriates me about Trump and his political movement is their willingness to manipulate facts, exploit outrage, selectively present information, and construct narratives that are technically based on something real while being fundamentally misleading. We shouldn't respond to that by adopting the same tactics.
If we believe our position is actually stronger, then we should be able to make the argument honestly.
You can criticize Trump's claims about "rebuilding the military." You can criticize defense spending, procurement failures, maintenance problems, military readiness, the defense industrial complex, or the extraordinary deployment demands being placed on the Navy. There are plenty of legitimate arguments to make.
We don't need to manufacture evidence to make those arguments.
If our standard becomes "misinformation is acceptable when it hurts the people we dislike," then we've abandoned the very standard we're supposedly defending. Worse, we've made ourselves vulnerable to exactly the same rhetorical tactics when they're used against us.
Being better than Trump and his political movement means more than disagreeing with them. It means refusing to become comfortable with the methods we condemn when they're politically convenient.
You make a valid point if this were misinformation. But where's the misinformation? That's a picture of the ship. Salt water and steel don't mix well, we all know this. Long deployments at sea means stretched maintenance schedules. And for what purpose? Nobody really knows. Israel has nukes, why can't Iran? This war is costing us immensely and for no other purpose than so Israel doesn't release Donnie's pedo proof. There's no misinformation in this meme. The ship looks like shit because it was there for a long ass time, but it does look like shit.
Right, I get that. But that's a reaction to the meme. It is factually rusty. It's not necessarily a problem yet, but it isn't misinformation. It's just kinda small fry shit. Even the claim from trump that he's rebuilt the military twice is simply eye-rolling in nature. It's like calling him orange, it's not important, but it's true. Therefore it can't really be called misinformation.
Disinformation is probably what they're going for.
This ship is a ship in water. This happens to ships in water. We're even discussing it now and it's a non issue.... Not the actual valid points related to the ship having been there.
Then say that in the meme. Don't sensationalize it.
The fact that Donnie spent trillions of dollars on the military has nothing to do with the Abraham Lincoln being rusty. In fact, as far as I can tell, the cosmetic damage to the ship has nothing to do with its combat readiness. I'm sure at some point it'll get maintenance, get repainted, and be taken care of, considering it's an active-duty ship.
The misleading part of the meme is that it implies all the money being spent on the military isn't actually doing anything to keep the military up to date, which is absolutely untrue.
If you want to criticize the Abraham Lincoln's maintenance, deployment, or condition, then do that. But there's nothing in the meme that even indicates what's happening in the Middle East, what ship it is, or any context for why it's rusty in the first place.
That's the problem. It's taking an isolated image of cosmetic wear and presenting it as evidence that massive amounts of military spending aren't accomplishing anything. That's not an honest representation of what the image actually tells us.
military moneys spent and deployment schedules do have a lot to do with each other, though. it's not an immediate, 1:1 thing. it's a budget cycle/debt cycle, time value of money thing that the corrupt can use to grift.
Maybe I'm overthinking the meme, but to me that picture means exactly what you said about excessively long deployments and the issues of maintaining both materiel and personnel as an effective force when that happens. It sums up the whole bundle of problems in one image, even if the thing pictured isn't directly the issue. Sure, a more nuanced and detailed aanalysis is better, but this gets the message across to even people who don't have the mental bandwidth for that.
What this meme is trying to say is that even though the orange man put a lot of money into the military. It's still crappy. Probably implying that somebody's just pocketing the money or some sort of government inefficiency, but it most certainly doesn't imply that it is one that Abraham Lincoln. There's no way to tell that that is the carrier in question and to any context as to how it received the rust to start with. The meme is expressly weaponized propaganda.
I'd agree with your statement if it was simply the picture of the ship and the text criticizing Trump, but context is provided about the ship and I think that most people are aware of the horrible misuse of this ship and her personnel.
This is the meme shown in the feed that everyone is going to see. Some people might go into the comments section for additional context, but most won't. And very few are going to actually fact-check it like I did.
The meme itself, which has the most visibility, is essentially saying, "Even though Trump put more money into the military, our ships still look like this." There is intentionally no context in the meme itself.
That's the problem I'm criticizing. The photograph may be real, but the way it is presented encourages people to draw a connection between Trump's military spending and the cosmetic condition of the ship without providing the context necessary to support that conclusion.
I don't know. If Trump has taught us anything, it's that a significant percentage of people struggle with empathy. And despite us being the war hawk, military police of the world, I would guess there are fewer people who understand what it's like to be deployed that long than folks who are used to landlords slapping a coat of paint on something and pretending they totally rebuilt it, brand new.
Both are enormously disrespectful. Trump doesn't give two shits about the people, the money, or the equipment he burns on this giant Epstein file distraction.
I don't disagree, but we're living in the age of memes and 30 second videos. People don't even bother to do the most basic of fact checking. They're too hung up on trying to "win" discussions, while being "accurate" or "truthful" takes a back seat.
Man. Ain't that the truth. If I had a nickel for every logical fallacy I've been accused of committing I'd... Have like twenty bucks. But that's a lot of nickels.
I don't see what factual argument is being made in ANY of the three layers of this meme. Or how Trump is mentioned or involved at all. "The ship has arrived at port" with a photo of the ship. Surely your issue isn't with that. "My God, the state of that ship" is not a factual assertion of anything, except that the ship externally looks pretty rough in that photo after that long deployment. And "A passenger on the titanic had a better experience" is is obviously not an earnest assertion of fact either, it's a joke. Sinking into the freezing Atlantic and 2/3rds of them dying is not meant as some serious comparison to serving on a Navy vessel for a long deployment, it's humor. Nothing is being asserted in these memes, nothing even vaguely related to Trump is mentioned, and I'd love to hear your argument for how any of the text or images here are rising to the alarmist level of "manufacturing evidence"
Imagine this was a photo of a WWII bomber returning home after a long and hard deployment, you wouldn't interpret someone saying "wow that bomber looks beat to shit" as some kind of misinformation or assertion of fact or personal attack on President Roosevelt would you?
You say after having all the context presented to you.
Dude, don't be a contrarian just for the sake of it. You know exactly what this meme implies and what it means and how out of context it is, don't even.
Well at least you've retrenched from this is "manufacturing evidence" to this "implies" something. Which in no way are the same thing. I agree with you that it vaguely implies something about our Navy assets and sailors being worked too hard during this war, which is certainly a fair point for discussion, but that wasn't your original argument in any way. So from a motte and bailey fallacy perspective I feel good about that progress. Also a pretty bold move calling your own wall of text on the matter "all the context" but that's rather beside the point.
The stupidest people on this platform hide behind logical fallacies they can't properly identify or use correctly, then call what I wrote a "wall of text." You're like the 20th person this month to use this exact tactic, and it looks and sounds just as stupid coming from you as it did from your counterparts.
Nobody manufactured evidence. Nor did I make any implications. I explicitly called out the manufactured propaganda the meme was displaying and the misinformation it was attempting to promote.
Apparently, you have some kind of disagreement with that. So let me state it plainly and head back down to the motte:
I am proclaiming that the meme is propagandizing misinformation.
Excited about big post, it must have lots of good information. Incredibly disappointed after reading it. Nonsensical complaints and logic fallacies abound all under the guise of correctness. Yes, we need to fight lies with facts with an administration that could care less about facts.
You're the second person to tell me I made a logical fallacy in this post.
So let me state it plainly: the meme is intentionally misleading and is creating propagandized misinformation against a politician.
The Abraham Lincoln is superficially rusty. That has no effect on its combat ability and has nothing to do with how much money Trump has sunk into the military.
The bigger criticisms are how poorly managed the Abraham Lincoln's deployment was, the torment the sailors must have faced during such a long deployment, and the fact that, despite the military receiving even more money, situations like this still happen.
We should not use the same tactics our adversaries use.
And I'll tell you what I told the other guy: the stupidest people on this platform are the ones who respond with "wall of text" and "logical fallacies."
This is not a formal debate. I am not trying to convince you of anything, and you most assuredly won't convince me of anything.
I have made my case very clearly, and instead of addressing any of the points I made, you simply cry "logical fallacy." What an absolute waste.
Anyone who actually thinks about what you wrote would tell you the same thing. You have constructed a strawman in regards to the meaning of this meme. There is no misinformation presented that you have identified to my discernment.
A picture is worth a thousand words and this picture highlights the long deployment and torment the sailors had to go through.
We should definitely use the tactics the enemy uses if they are effective and this administration operates purely off vibes. Facts don't matter, but feelings do. This is exactly how we should be attacking them.
I get you want to dismiss criticism, but I think you are way off base with me. I was genuinely excited to read your post. This is not a debate rather it is a discussion. The reality is you didn't add anything meaningful other than nonsensical complaints.
Your lack of reading comprehension does not make my complaints “nonsensical.”
I very clearly stated the facts and arguments I was making.
I did not commit a straw man. I cannot commit a straw man against you because I am the one making the initial argument. A straw man would require me to misrepresent your argument and substitute it with a weaker argument that is easier to attack. That is not what I did. I made an accusation and then defended the position I was actually arguing.
You, on the other hand, are committing a straw man by substituting my actual argument with the assertion that my argument is simply “nonsense.” That is not an argument against what I said. It is a dismissal that avoids engaging with the actual points I made.
Stop throwing around logical fallacies you clearly do not understand. If you are going to accuse someone of committing a fallacy, you should at least understand what the fallacy means, how to identify it, and how to demonstrate that it actually applies.
A picture is worth a thousand words and this picture highlights the long deployment and torment the sailors had to go through.
And this picture is worth about three. It’s a close-up of the aft of the ship where you can see some rust. Above that is out-of-context text saying that military spending went up.
Wango bango: Rusty ship = more military spending = Trump is shit.
Which, he is. Don’t get me wrong. But this meme is wrong. Those two things are not connected in the context of the rust on the USS Abraham Lincoln. The presence of superficial rust on an active-duty ship does not demonstrate that increased military spending is being wasted, nor does it establish anything about the ship’s combat readiness or maintenance.
If you want to criticize Trump’s military spending, then criticize the actual spending. Don’t take a cosmetic maintenance issue, strip it of its context, and imply that it proves something it doesn’t.
We should definitely use the tactics the enemy uses if they are effective and this administration operates purely off vibes. Facts don't matter, but feelings do. This is exactly how we should be attacking them.
An eye for an eye didn't work for Hammurabi, and it's not going to work here. We have to be better than the scum we stand against.
I am directly addressing your "criticism." I have argued against your point, point by point, and I have not replaced your argument with something easier to attack. NO STRAW MAN.
"but using that photograph as evidence that Trump somehow left the U.S. military looking like this is misleading."
It is not misleading. It is factual. The current administration's decision to extend the deployment directly lead to the state of the ship.
"Those are substantive criticisms that deserve discussion."
This meme is what lead to you saying this. Mission accomplished!?
"Instead, we get this stupid little meme that takes a completely legitimate photograph, strips away all of its context, and presents it as though it is evidence of something it does not actually demonstrate."
This is straight nonsensical. It is also disingenuous, dismissive, and deceptive. The photo is the context that proves Trump is not rebuilding the military. He is using and abusing it as demonstrated by this picture. Your inability to see this is staggering to say the least.
"That's the problem I keep seeing on Lemmy: a legitimate political point gets wrapped in misinformation because the misinformation makes the meme more effective."
There was no misinformation, this is just an excuse for you to talk shit and it really makes you look like a fucking idiot.
"People then repeat it because it supports a conclusion they already agree with."
You certainly repeat yourself a lot in this post.
"I don't think that's acceptable simply because the target is Trump."
Nonsense.
"We shouldn't respond to that by adopting the same tactics."
Yes, we should because it works on the low information "feels people" Trump is manipulating. Obviously the fact that Trump is a rapist and charlatan isn't convincing them. Making fun of Trump does work because it hurts his image and the feels of his followers. If they think Trump is uncool he is done.
"You can criticize Trump's claims about "rebuilding the military."
This meme did that effectively.
"You can criticize defense spending, procurement failures, maintenance problems, military readiness, the defense industrial complex, or the extraordinary deployment demands being placed on the Navy. There are plenty of legitimate arguments to make."
Once again, a picture is worth a thousand words.
"We don't need to manufacture evidence to make those arguments."
You have failed to prove this and restating it over and over again is the same stupid tactic Trump uses. At this point you are not using facts and are using feelings. Pretty sus.
"If our standard becomes "misinformation is acceptable when it hurts the people we dislike," then we've abandoned the very standard we're supposedly defending."
Repeat ad nauseum. Also what you are saying has been dubunked time and time again. Trump voters are not swayed by facts.
"Worse, we've made ourselves vulnerable to exactly the same rhetorical tactics when they're used against us."
This straight laughable. First, what you said was not even true to begin with. Your opinion isn't supported by anything other than your own hangups and failure to understand how politics are currently working.
"Being better than Trump and his political movement means more than disagreeing with them. It means refusing to become comfortable with the methods we condemn when they're politically convenient."
Let me fix this for you. There is no being better and even if there was it wouldn't win in the current climate. Winning is what matters and being factual is not winning. The only way to win is to turn these same tactics against Trump. Ridicule is what gets under this regime's skin and it is what changes public opinion.
So you are wrong on multiple levels hence my complete disappointment and realization that you are fucking rambling at this point using the exact same tactics (repeating untruths over and over again) this administration uses.
If you think the only way to beat Trump is to convince people like you have convinced me...well let's just say you are missing the mark. A lot.
This one's got a long way to go to being Kuznetsov'd, for one you need to weld off unused areas, then make the engine room look like something from Saw, replace the catapult with a cope slope. Oh, and have it spew clouds of black smoke whenever it's not moved by tugs (which is like 10%), maybe keep it in port for "modernization" for a few years too
Of course plenty of smaller aircraft/helicopter carriers powered that way, but I'm thinking Trump would want heavy fuel oil, boilers and steam turbines.
I had to do my due diligence because I initially got the Admiral Kuznetsov confused with the Moskva (of "Russian Warship, Go Fuck Yourself" infamy). which, in my initial searchings, Ukraine claimed they fucked and the russia claimed fucked itself, and honestly the russia claiming "nah, nah our boat totally fucked itself after y'all told it to fuck itself. Our boats just do that sometimes" (which is a glib oversimplification of war)
no i'm not gonna look up the admiral kuznetsov that'd be too easy i'm gonna look up what i THINK the admiral kuznetsov is. then when i'm done and frustrated i'll look up what the admiral kuznetsov is if i haven't remembered. that's harder and more fun.
so, i can’t impress upon everyone the toll the ocean has on ships. the ocean seems to make it its mission to sink every vessel in it, one steel layer at a time. and paint only lasts so long.
when in a deployment, the scraping and repainting maintenance is not able to be done. and this is a standard result of a ship being out. other then paint discoloration, i don’t see anything wrong with it.
i mean i agree that they should not be out so long, but no ship comes back looking very good, maybe a touch up port side in hawaii.
mine didn’t look much different. the meme seems to point to exceptional military incompetence as to why it looks like that. but that’s just your average levels of neglect.
i was going to say it looks to be riding high so either supplies or crew are low (which given what we've heard about the lincoln, it's a good move to get as much of the nonessential crew off there as possible i'd think. i'd also think more of the airplanes too tho)
Asked my dad about this, because he was in the navy a long time, and it's normal, and the ship is sitting high, indicating light load, which makes sense because of the deployment circumstances.
I just wanna say that is a marvel of engineering. To make something that big and wide sitting on such a small base in water is very impressive. It's like a reverse iceberg, where 10% is under the surface and 90% above.
military tend to have some of the most creative accounting so no matter how much it is always not enough even though by all metrics it is more than enough
creative? they just don't do it period. their fudge balance was something like 2 billion one year. i don't pass something on if there's a penny in there.
being lazy requires finding ways for not doing shit but make it seem like shit gets done - which requires creativity. that's it. of course that's not artistic creativity by any means. but it is technically a creative act.
How to ragebait the right: "look at all those torpedo marks at the water line! They must have some thick hulls, bless." 100s of comments on Tiktok news channels.
Same channel: "that ship is about to experience chlamydia and herpes, better stock up on penicillin and valtrex" (upon landing on a sex capital of the world).....nothing. zero comments.
Still the funniest fact about Darwin is his legendary hatred for barnacles, also the fact his kids just thought a dad having barnacles for study was normal.
i mean, were we not dealing with a mad tyrant it would be a much bigger issue. it's a visible symbol of systemic maintenance delays throughout the entire military and government. moneys going somewhere tho
Imagine signing up for the navy with the expectation to live on a boat and then cry when that happens. 😂🤣😂 No wonder US military can't win a war. What a bunch of weaklings
110 Comments
ZapBeebz_@lemmy.world · 106 pts · 1d
I mean, while she absolutely does not look great, this is also the expected condition for a ship that's been at sea for 200+ days without even a port call. Saltwater is hell on metal, and paint can only do so much for so long.
lightnsfw@reddthat.com · 88 pts · 1d
The ship shouldn't have been out that long in the first place. Letting it get this bad is the failure being highlighted here.
vzqq@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 34 pts · 1d
Maybe don’t start a war that puts your critical shore support structures at risk if you don’t have a plan.
Or just, you know, don’t start a war, period. I have been informed it’s generally frowned upon.
ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 1d
Trump voters are braindead. Now we have sailers jumping off the boat to their deaths. Whole country is a hopeless cesspool of income inequality, job insecurity, skyrocketing cost of food, while housing costs, education costs, and healthcare costs are wildly unaffordable. Half of the population seems to be in some hated minority group (non Christian, non white, non cis, lgbt, disabled, autistic, or whatever boogeyman) these idiots can hate rather than focus on the real enemies manipulating them.
It's heartbreaking to see it in your family and neighbors. They voted their country away to own the libs. They don't give a shit about the kids they sent to die in this stupid war. Or those kids they sent to rot on a boat.
At least they were able to prevent those two trans kids from playing sports I guess.
lightnsfw@reddthat.com · 2 pts · 1d
Well, yeah. That would have prevented this. Allowing a corrupt dementia patient to run your country unchecked leads to all kinds of problems.
floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 26 pts · 1d
Even if it is expected and has no effect on the carrier's performance, the optics are pretty bad regardless. Half of its job is projecting power, and a rusty ship doesn't hit the same. Looks like soviet tech in western representations, working but barely
filcuk@feddit.uk · 10 pts · 1d
The cost to maintain these must be insane. A quick uneducated search gives me about half a billion $ per year. Absolutely bonkers.
Cethin@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 1d
I have no idea if that includes crew, food, aircraft, armaments, and everything else. If it does, that's not all that insane, or I should say I'm not surprised at least.
filcuk@feddit.uk · 3 pts · 1d
I believe it does
vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 22h
Given the size and complexity of these things I wouldn't be surprised if less than a quarter was allocated to elements outside of ship maintenance. Ships are expensive as hell to maintain and always have been.
Cethin@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 18h
I suspect the aircraft are a big expense too. They're also expensive to maintain, and these ones are constantly surrounded by salt water. They have a lot less room for degradation than the ship does. It's fine for the ship to get a little rust, but a fighter jet probably can't afford any.
vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 18h
Probably but also you can probably do a good bit of proactive maintenance on them and otherwise work a bit more cleanly to keep the costs down. Can't really do that for a ship.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 5 pts · 1d
thailand is expected 5000 sailors to spend time with the red district.
Typotyper@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 1d
Peacefully blownoff steam
countvon@lemmy.world · 85 pts · 1d
Not the most ragged lookin' ship I've ever seen, but for a representative of the world's most expensive Navy she's looking absolutely shabby.
toiletobserver@lemmy.world · 53 pts · 1d
That's speed rust
joelfromaus@aussie.zone · 21 pts · 1d
Sponsored by Rust-eze Medicated Bumper Ointment.
postmateDumbass@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 1d
That must be what freedom looks like
TeaWithDani@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1d
Red makes it faster
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 20h
those barnacles? speed barnacles.
i knew i shoulda brought more than six shellfish
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 47 pts · 1d
I want to be clear about something before anyone interprets this as me defending Trump: I am not a Trump supporter. I consider him one of the worst presidents in U.S. history, and I have very little interest in defending either him or his political agenda.
That is precisely why I have a problem with memes like this being presented as factual arguments.
The USS Abraham Lincoln really did return to port after an extraordinarily long deployment. The photograph is real, and the ship genuinely looks rough after spending months at sea. But using that photograph as evidence that Trump somehow left the U.S. military looking like this is misleading. The Lincoln had just completed a 286 day deployment, including roughly 208 consecutive days at sea and about 200 days in a combat zone. That is actually a far more legitimate thing to criticize. Keeping a carrier and its crew deployed for that length of time raises serious questions about operational tempo, maintenance, readiness, crew fatigue, and the strain being placed on the Navy. Those are substantive criticisms that deserve discussion.
Instead, we get this stupid little meme that takes a completely legitimate photograph, strips away all of its context, and presents it as though it is evidence of something it does not actually demonstrate. That is intentionally misleading the people who see it, and then encouraging them to repeat the misinformation because it supports an agenda.
That's the problem I keep seeing on Lemmy: a legitimate political point gets wrapped in misinformation because the misinformation makes the meme more effective. People then repeat it because it supports a conclusion they already agree with.
I don't think that's acceptable simply because the target is Trump.
One of the things that infuriates me about Trump and his political movement is their willingness to manipulate facts, exploit outrage, selectively present information, and construct narratives that are technically based on something real while being fundamentally misleading. We shouldn't respond to that by adopting the same tactics.
If we believe our position is actually stronger, then we should be able to make the argument honestly.
You can criticize Trump's claims about "rebuilding the military." You can criticize defense spending, procurement failures, maintenance problems, military readiness, the defense industrial complex, or the extraordinary deployment demands being placed on the Navy. There are plenty of legitimate arguments to make.
We don't need to manufacture evidence to make those arguments.
If our standard becomes "misinformation is acceptable when it hurts the people we dislike," then we've abandoned the very standard we're supposedly defending. Worse, we've made ourselves vulnerable to exactly the same rhetorical tactics when they're used against us.
Being better than Trump and his political movement means more than disagreeing with them. It means refusing to become comfortable with the methods we condemn when they're politically convenient.
shartgargle@lemmy.zip · 20 pts · 1d
You make a valid point if this were misinformation. But where's the misinformation? That's a picture of the ship. Salt water and steel don't mix well, we all know this. Long deployments at sea means stretched maintenance schedules. And for what purpose? Nobody really knows. Israel has nukes, why can't Iran? This war is costing us immensely and for no other purpose than so Israel doesn't release Donnie's pedo proof. There's no misinformation in this meme. The ship looks like shit because it was there for a long ass time, but it does look like shit.
Where are you seeing misinformation in this?
BlackVenom@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1d
The ship is fine. The post is trying to claim otherwise.
The sailors, the pointless war, etc... are valid concerns.
The OmG ShIp Got WuStY... Is undermining the real problems.
shartgargle@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 1d
Right, I get that. But that's a reaction to the meme. It is factually rusty. It's not necessarily a problem yet, but it isn't misinformation. It's just kinda small fry shit. Even the claim from trump that he's rebuilt the military twice is simply eye-rolling in nature. It's like calling him orange, it's not important, but it's true. Therefore it can't really be called misinformation.
BlackVenom@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1d
Disinformation is probably what they're going for.
This ship is a ship in water. This happens to ships in water. We're even discussing it now and it's a non issue.... Not the actual valid points related to the ship having been there.
100_kg_90_de_belin@feddit.it · 5 pts · 1d
Israel can have nukes because it's the only democracy of the Middle East /s
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 20h
they're the only democratically elected democracy our kleptocracy gives money to so the other popularly elected democracies don't count
^/s^
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1d
Then say that in the meme. Don't sensationalize it.
The fact that Donnie spent trillions of dollars on the military has nothing to do with the Abraham Lincoln being rusty. In fact, as far as I can tell, the cosmetic damage to the ship has nothing to do with its combat readiness. I'm sure at some point it'll get maintenance, get repainted, and be taken care of, considering it's an active-duty ship.
The misleading part of the meme is that it implies all the money being spent on the military isn't actually doing anything to keep the military up to date, which is absolutely untrue.
If you want to criticize the Abraham Lincoln's maintenance, deployment, or condition, then do that. But there's nothing in the meme that even indicates what's happening in the Middle East, what ship it is, or any context for why it's rusty in the first place.
That's the problem. It's taking an isolated image of cosmetic wear and presenting it as evidence that massive amounts of military spending aren't accomplishing anything. That's not an honest representation of what the image actually tells us.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 20h
military moneys spent and deployment schedules do have a lot to do with each other, though. it's not an immediate, 1:1 thing. it's a budget cycle/debt cycle, time value of money thing that the corrupt can use to grift.
notabot@piefed.social · 18 pts · 22h
Maybe I'm overthinking the meme, but to me that picture means exactly what you said about excessively long deployments and the issues of maintaining both materiel and personnel as an effective force when that happens. It sums up the whole bundle of problems in one image, even if the thing pictured isn't directly the issue. Sure, a more nuanced and detailed aanalysis is better, but this gets the message across to even people who don't have the mental bandwidth for that.
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 21h
What this meme is trying to say is that even though the orange man put a lot of money into the military. It's still crappy. Probably implying that somebody's just pocketing the money or some sort of government inefficiency, but it most certainly doesn't imply that it is one that Abraham Lincoln. There's no way to tell that that is the carrier in question and to any context as to how it received the rust to start with. The meme is expressly weaponized propaganda.
GroundedGator@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 20h
I'd agree with your statement if it was simply the picture of the ship and the text criticizing Trump, but context is provided about the ship and I think that most people are aware of the horrible misuse of this ship and her personnel.
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 15h
This is the meme shown in the feed that everyone is going to see. Some people might go into the comments section for additional context, but most won't. And very few are going to actually fact-check it like I did.
The meme itself, which has the most visibility, is essentially saying, "Even though Trump put more money into the military, our ships still look like this." There is intentionally no context in the meme itself.
That's the problem I'm criticizing. The photograph may be real, but the way it is presented encourages people to draw a connection between Trump's military spending and the cosmetic condition of the ship without providing the context necessary to support that conclusion.
waitingtech@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 20h
Another troll. Internet rule #1: don't feed the trolls.
Unpigged@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 1d
Weighted takes are hard, being salty after a meme is much easier.
anarchy79@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
Jokes on you, I was already salty.
pachrist@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
I don't know. If Trump has taught us anything, it's that a significant percentage of people struggle with empathy. And despite us being the war hawk, military police of the world, I would guess there are fewer people who understand what it's like to be deployed that long than folks who are used to landlords slapping a coat of paint on something and pretending they totally rebuilt it, brand new.
Both are enormously disrespectful. Trump doesn't give two shits about the people, the money, or the equipment he burns on this giant Epstein file distraction.
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1d
Totally agree.
AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 14h
I don't disagree, but we're living in the age of memes and 30 second videos. People don't even bother to do the most basic of fact checking. They're too hung up on trying to "win" discussions, while being "accurate" or "truthful" takes a back seat.
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 13h
Man. Ain't that the truth. If I had a nickel for every logical fallacy I've been accused of committing I'd... Have like twenty bucks. But that's a lot of nickels.
khepri@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 22h
I don't see what factual argument is being made in ANY of the three layers of this meme. Or how Trump is mentioned or involved at all. "The ship has arrived at port" with a photo of the ship. Surely your issue isn't with that. "My God, the state of that ship" is not a factual assertion of anything, except that the ship externally looks pretty rough in that photo after that long deployment. And "A passenger on the titanic had a better experience" is is obviously not an earnest assertion of fact either, it's a joke. Sinking into the freezing Atlantic and 2/3rds of them dying is not meant as some serious comparison to serving on a Navy vessel for a long deployment, it's humor. Nothing is being asserted in these memes, nothing even vaguely related to Trump is mentioned, and I'd love to hear your argument for how any of the text or images here are rising to the alarmist level of "manufacturing evidence"
Imagine this was a photo of a WWII bomber returning home after a long and hard deployment, you wouldn't interpret someone saying "wow that bomber looks beat to shit" as some kind of misinformation or assertion of fact or personal attack on President Roosevelt would you?
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 21h
You say after having all the context presented to you.
Dude, don't be a contrarian just for the sake of it. You know exactly what this meme implies and what it means and how out of context it is, don't even.
khepri@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 21h
Well at least you've retrenched from this is "manufacturing evidence" to this "implies" something. Which in no way are the same thing. I agree with you that it vaguely implies something about our Navy assets and sailors being worked too hard during this war, which is certainly a fair point for discussion, but that wasn't your original argument in any way. So from a motte and bailey fallacy perspective I feel good about that progress. Also a pretty bold move calling your own wall of text on the matter "all the context" but that's rather beside the point.
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 15h
The stupidest people on this platform hide behind logical fallacies they can't properly identify or use correctly, then call what I wrote a "wall of text." You're like the 20th person this month to use this exact tactic, and it looks and sounds just as stupid coming from you as it did from your counterparts.
Nobody manufactured evidence. Nor did I make any implications. I explicitly called out the manufactured propaganda the meme was displaying and the misinformation it was attempting to promote.
Apparently, you have some kind of disagreement with that. So let me state it plainly and head back down to the motte:
I am proclaiming that the meme is propagandizing misinformation.
Proceed.
Doomsider@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 18h
Excited about big post, it must have lots of good information. Incredibly disappointed after reading it. Nonsensical complaints and logic fallacies abound all under the guise of correctness. Yes, we need to fight lies with facts with an administration that could care less about facts.
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 15h
You're the second person to tell me I made a logical fallacy in this post.
So let me state it plainly: the meme is intentionally misleading and is creating propagandized misinformation against a politician.
The Abraham Lincoln is superficially rusty. That has no effect on its combat ability and has nothing to do with how much money Trump has sunk into the military.
The bigger criticisms are how poorly managed the Abraham Lincoln's deployment was, the torment the sailors must have faced during such a long deployment, and the fact that, despite the military receiving even more money, situations like this still happen.
We should not use the same tactics our adversaries use.
And I'll tell you what I told the other guy: the stupidest people on this platform are the ones who respond with "wall of text" and "logical fallacies."
This is not a formal debate. I am not trying to convince you of anything, and you most assuredly won't convince me of anything.
I have made my case very clearly, and instead of addressing any of the points I made, you simply cry "logical fallacy." What an absolute waste.
Doomsider@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 14h
Anyone who actually thinks about what you wrote would tell you the same thing. You have constructed a strawman in regards to the meaning of this meme. There is no misinformation presented that you have identified to my discernment.
A picture is worth a thousand words and this picture highlights the long deployment and torment the sailors had to go through.
We should definitely use the tactics the enemy uses if they are effective and this administration operates purely off vibes. Facts don't matter, but feelings do. This is exactly how we should be attacking them.
I get you want to dismiss criticism, but I think you are way off base with me. I was genuinely excited to read your post. This is not a debate rather it is a discussion. The reality is you didn't add anything meaningful other than nonsensical complaints.
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 13h
Your lack of reading comprehension does not make my complaints “nonsensical.”
I very clearly stated the facts and arguments I was making.
I did not commit a straw man. I cannot commit a straw man against you because I am the one making the initial argument. A straw man would require me to misrepresent your argument and substitute it with a weaker argument that is easier to attack. That is not what I did. I made an accusation and then defended the position I was actually arguing.
You, on the other hand, are committing a straw man by substituting my actual argument with the assertion that my argument is simply “nonsense.” That is not an argument against what I said. It is a dismissal that avoids engaging with the actual points I made.
Stop throwing around logical fallacies you clearly do not understand. If you are going to accuse someone of committing a fallacy, you should at least understand what the fallacy means, how to identify it, and how to demonstrate that it actually applies.
And this picture is worth about three. It’s a close-up of the aft of the ship where you can see some rust. Above that is out-of-context text saying that military spending went up.
Wango bango: Rusty ship = more military spending = Trump is shit.
Which, he is. Don’t get me wrong. But this meme is wrong. Those two things are not connected in the context of the rust on the USS Abraham Lincoln. The presence of superficial rust on an active-duty ship does not demonstrate that increased military spending is being wasted, nor does it establish anything about the ship’s combat readiness or maintenance.
If you want to criticize Trump’s military spending, then criticize the actual spending. Don’t take a cosmetic maintenance issue, strip it of its context, and imply that it proves something it doesn’t.
An eye for an eye didn't work for Hammurabi, and it's not going to work here. We have to be better than the scum we stand against.
I am directly addressing your "criticism." I have argued against your point, point by point, and I have not replaced your argument with something easier to attack. NO STRAW MAN.
Doomsider@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 12h
"but using that photograph as evidence that Trump somehow left the U.S. military looking like this is misleading."
It is not misleading. It is factual. The current administration's decision to extend the deployment directly lead to the state of the ship.
"Those are substantive criticisms that deserve discussion."
This meme is what lead to you saying this. Mission accomplished!?
"Instead, we get this stupid little meme that takes a completely legitimate photograph, strips away all of its context, and presents it as though it is evidence of something it does not actually demonstrate."
This is straight nonsensical. It is also disingenuous, dismissive, and deceptive. The photo is the context that proves Trump is not rebuilding the military. He is using and abusing it as demonstrated by this picture. Your inability to see this is staggering to say the least.
"That's the problem I keep seeing on Lemmy: a legitimate political point gets wrapped in misinformation because the misinformation makes the meme more effective."
There was no misinformation, this is just an excuse for you to talk shit and it really makes you look like a fucking idiot.
"People then repeat it because it supports a conclusion they already agree with."
You certainly repeat yourself a lot in this post.
"I don't think that's acceptable simply because the target is Trump."
Nonsense.
"We shouldn't respond to that by adopting the same tactics."
Yes, we should because it works on the low information "feels people" Trump is manipulating. Obviously the fact that Trump is a rapist and charlatan isn't convincing them. Making fun of Trump does work because it hurts his image and the feels of his followers. If they think Trump is uncool he is done.
"You can criticize Trump's claims about "rebuilding the military."
This meme did that effectively.
"You can criticize defense spending, procurement failures, maintenance problems, military readiness, the defense industrial complex, or the extraordinary deployment demands being placed on the Navy. There are plenty of legitimate arguments to make."
Once again, a picture is worth a thousand words.
"We don't need to manufacture evidence to make those arguments."
You have failed to prove this and restating it over and over again is the same stupid tactic Trump uses. At this point you are not using facts and are using feelings. Pretty sus.
"If our standard becomes "misinformation is acceptable when it hurts the people we dislike," then we've abandoned the very standard we're supposedly defending."
Repeat ad nauseum. Also what you are saying has been dubunked time and time again. Trump voters are not swayed by facts.
https://youtu.be/S8DQ2kseTWw?is=qxuWhKmhA-qwsVcq
"Worse, we've made ourselves vulnerable to exactly the same rhetorical tactics when they're used against us."
This straight laughable. First, what you said was not even true to begin with. Your opinion isn't supported by anything other than your own hangups and failure to understand how politics are currently working.
"Being better than Trump and his political movement means more than disagreeing with them. It means refusing to become comfortable with the methods we condemn when they're politically convenient."
Let me fix this for you. There is no being better and even if there was it wouldn't win in the current climate. Winning is what matters and being factual is not winning. The only way to win is to turn these same tactics against Trump. Ridicule is what gets under this regime's skin and it is what changes public opinion.
So you are wrong on multiple levels hence my complete disappointment and realization that you are fucking rambling at this point using the exact same tactics (repeating untruths over and over again) this administration uses.
If you think the only way to beat Trump is to convince people like you have convinced me...well let's just say you are missing the mark. A lot.
NOT_RICK@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 1d
We don’t get to make fun of the Admiral Kuznetsov ever again
T00l_shed@lemmy.world · 24 pts · 1d
We can do both
real_squids@sopuli.xyz · 17 pts · 1d
This one's got a long way to go to being Kuznetsov'd, for one you need to weld off unused areas, then make the engine room look like something from Saw, replace the catapult with a cope slope. Oh, and have it spew clouds of black smoke whenever it's not moved by tugs (which is like 10%), maybe keep it in port for "modernization" for a few years too
fake@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 1d
Really its a wonder Trump hasn't mandated conventionally powered carriers, only his insane ideas with steam catapults.
real_squids@sopuli.xyz · 5 pts · 1d
Part of me wants to see more ships powered by marine gas* turbines, but with aircraft carriers that's really improbable :/
fake@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 1d
Of course plenty of smaller aircraft/helicopter carriers powered that way, but I'm thinking Trump would want heavy fuel oil, boilers and steam turbines.
dondelelcaro@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1d
They're powered by marine steam turbines. Is that close enough?
real_squids@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 1d
Close, but not nearly cool enough
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 20h
I had to do my due diligence because I initially got the Admiral Kuznetsov confused with the Moskva (of "Russian Warship, Go Fuck Yourself" infamy). which, in my initial searchings, Ukraine claimed they fucked and the russia claimed fucked itself, and honestly the russia claiming "nah, nah our boat totally fucked itself after y'all told it to fuck itself. Our boats just do that sometimes" (which is a glib oversimplification of war)
no i'm not gonna look up the admiral kuznetsov that'd be too easy i'm gonna look up what i THINK the admiral kuznetsov is. then when i'm done and frustrated i'll look up what the admiral kuznetsov is if i haven't remembered. that's harder and more fun.
NOT_RICK@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 20h
It’s so much worse than the Moskva, I assure you
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 19h
it's the one that caught fire by itself in dry dock, right?
NOT_RICK@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 16h
Yup. It had a fleet of escort tugs too because it never worked
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16h
i want to say i remember it getting towed out to sea, then it sank, then it caught fire again (while undersea), but i might just be piling on a little
i also might be thinking of the river thames
WraithGear@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 23h
so, i can’t impress upon everyone the toll the ocean has on ships. the ocean seems to make it its mission to sink every vessel in it, one steel layer at a time. and paint only lasts so long.
when in a deployment, the scraping and repainting maintenance is not able to be done. and this is a standard result of a ship being out. other then paint discoloration, i don’t see anything wrong with it.
pelespirit@sh.itjust.works · 18 pts · 22h
If they wouldn't have been deployed way too long, it wouldn't look like that. You're making the argument for the meme.
WraithGear@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 21h
i mean i agree that they should not be out so long, but no ship comes back looking very good, maybe a touch up port side in hawaii.
mine didn’t look much different. the meme seems to point to exceptional military incompetence as to why it looks like that. but that’s just your average levels of neglect.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 20h
i was going to say it looks to be riding high so either supplies or crew are low (which given what we've heard about the lincoln, it's a good move to get as much of the nonessential crew off there as possible i'd think. i'd also think more of the airplanes too tho)
waitingtech@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 20h
Don't feed the trolls.
Audacious@sh.itjust.works · 16 pts · 1d
Asked my dad about this, because he was in the navy a long time, and it's normal, and the ship is sitting high, indicating light load, which makes sense because of the deployment circumstances.
fake@sh.itjust.works · 10 pts · 1d
Its sitting completely normally. It'll be ballasted to that draught.
shartgargle@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 1d
I just wanna say that is a marvel of engineering. To make something that big and wide sitting on such a small base in water is very impressive. It's like a reverse iceberg, where 10% is under the surface and 90% above.
ryathal@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 20h
What's even crazier is that these ships are still pretty fast. It's cruising speed is about 20mph, with a top speed of about 35mph.
socsa@piefed.social · 4 pts · 19h
Uranium is a hell of a drug
YurkshireLad@lemmy.ca · 15 pts · 1d
She just needs a lick of paint is all.
bulwark@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 1d
Ounce for dust, twice for rust.
OwOarchist@pawb.social · 14 pts · 1d
I mean, sure, but...
Is it really that surprising that a passenger aboard an ocean liner would have a better experience than a sailor aboard a warship?
BigPotato@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 1d
I think they're comparing it to the last hour or so of the Titanic's time on the water.
BC_viper@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1d
Unless you were third class.
Felis_Catus_Domesticus@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 21h
Rid hard, put away wet.
EmptyAsparagus@piefed.social · 10 pts · 1d
wow, maybe the military need more money to fix up their stuff. the only cause of this could be lack of funding, right? right?
TrickDacy@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 1d
Yeah a 1.5 trillion dollar budget just isn't enough /s
BilSabab@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1d
military tend to have some of the most creative accounting so no matter how much it is always not enough even though by all metrics it is more than enough
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 20h
creative? they just don't do it period. their fudge balance was something like 2 billion one year. i don't pass something on if there's a penny in there.
BilSabab@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 19h
that's literally a definition of creative accounting
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 19h
that ignores the meaning of the word creative. it's lazy but i neither feel like going on a rant nor teaching accounting today.
BilSabab@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 5h
being lazy requires finding ways for not doing shit but make it seem like shit gets done - which requires creativity. that's it. of course that's not artistic creativity by any means. but it is technically a creative act.
Johanno@feddit.org · 2 pts · 1d
Probably yes. They need more money to fix the ship.
However there's for sure enough money in the military.
So the question is, where did it all go?
zane@infosec.pub · 4 pts · 1d
Did you look under the Pentagon?
Why the fuck didn't that come to a head the first time they failed audits? America failed us a long time ago.
heartSagan5@lemmy.zip · 9 pts · 22h
Going to need some Rust-eze on that
criscodisco@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 1d
Turd Boat soon will be making another run.
The Turd Boat promises something for everyone.
Set a course for adventure,
Your mind on a new war crime.
Welcome aboard! It’s Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurds!
ra6787@fedinsfw.app · 1 pts · 1d
Bebopalouie@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 1d
A shining representation of what the US is like right now. A festering pit.
ironpangolin29@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 1d
How to ragebait the right: "look at all those torpedo marks at the water line! They must have some thick hulls, bless." 100s of comments on Tiktok news channels.
Same channel: "that ship is about to experience chlamydia and herpes, better stock up on penicillin and valtrex" (upon landing on a sex capital of the world).....nothing. zero comments.
postmateDumbass@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1d
All non perishable food will be gone from the city by the time they leave.
Also, how many sailors go AWOL?
saimen@feddit.org · 8 pts · 1d
Had to think of this:
vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 22h
Still the funniest fact about Darwin is his legendary hatred for barnacles, also the fact his kids just thought a dad having barnacles for study was normal.
SpicyLizards@reddthat.com · 8 pts · 1d
I think rust is like ablative armor
Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 1d
We would call that "load bearing rust".
clucose@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 1d
Seawater is really aggressive. I don’t think this is really a big issue as everyone makes out of this.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 20h
i mean, were we not dealing with a mad tyrant it would be a much bigger issue. it's a visible symbol of systemic maintenance delays throughout the entire military and government. moneys going somewhere tho
clucose@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 20h
No, I wouldn’t go this far. Look at other ocean ships after a couple of weeks; they look like this.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 19h
it's not the paint, it's the unnecessarily extended deployment. sorry, i was being imprecise
clucose@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 19h
That’s the issue, you’re right.
stumu415@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 1d
I can smell this picture
testaccount789@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 1d
Lots of seamen.
tetris11@feddit.uk · 3 pts · 1d
crusty walls
blackshirt@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 19h
This reminds me of Asimov's Prelude to Foundation and the signs of the fall of Trantor
RelativeArea1@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 1d
why send it to battle? they're disposing it, including the crew
daychilde@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
What does he even think he means (Trump on "rebuilding twice")?
BrickEater@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 19h
I hope it sinks.
anarchy79@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1d
So the front fell off?
AviAdi@lemmy.world · -6 pts · 1d
Imagine signing up for the navy with the expectation to live on a boat and then cry when that happens. 😂🤣😂 No wonder US military can't win a war. What a bunch of weaklings