New Mozilla CEO: "[Firefox] will evolve into a modern AI browser"
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/leadership/mozillas-next-chapter-anthony-enzor-demeo-new-ceo/
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/leadership/mozillas-next-chapter-anthony-enzor-demeo-new-ceo/
111 Comments
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world · 123 pts · 243d
How about you make it something people have to turn on, and make it useful enough that they will enable it?
ptz@dubvee.org · 71 pts · 243d
Or, better yet, step down as CEO. Pick someone who is in touch with what the project's dedicated userbase actually wants.
Eyekaytee@aussie.zone · -9 pts · 243d
a userbase that is largely shrinking?
ptz@dubvee.org · 39 pts · 243d
Most of the "abandon Firefox" rhetoric I've seen is due to their sudden focus on cramming in AI while simultaneously ignoring or half-assing long wanted features (e.g PWA support).
And to think that shoving in AI will fix any pre-existing userbase shrinkage is like thinking having a baby will save one's failing marriage.
Eyekaytee@aussie.zone · -7 pts · 243d
it’s been shrinking for well over 10 years, nothing to do with ai
sin_free_for_00_days@sopuli.xyz · 4 pts · 243d
Last data I saw showed user base pretty flat for the past 5 years.
Eyekaytee@aussie.zone · -1 pts · 243d
https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1mhks3h/firefoxs_weekly_active_users_fall_below_150/
sin_free_for_00_days@sopuli.xyz · 2 pts · 242d
https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity
230,000,000 in 2021 204,000,000 in 2025
I don't go to the website you linked to. Sorry.
dustyData@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 243d
Gee, our userbase is shrinking. What should we do? learn what the users want and cater to their needs? No, definitely what we must do is double down and force more unpopular features. That will surely bring back the users that left because of our previous decisions.
/s
leftyknowitall@mastodon.social · 1 pts · 242d
@dustyData Seriously… Over the years, I must have gotten dozens of people to switch to Firefox, just out of my enthusiasm. For the last 5 years or so, I haven’t promoted it much because of the direction of the Mozilla foundation. Now I’m abandoning it altogether.
Zombie@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 242d
Does that include those who have switched to a Firefox fork like Librewolf?
Those who use Firefox are more likely to be tech savvy. They're therefore more likely to be comfortable switching to a Firefox fork as well.
Firefox keeps getting worse, why would those with the know how stick with it when they can use a fork which is better?
gressen@lemmy.zip · 14 pts · 243d
Right, opt-in not opt-out.
XLE@piefed.social · 7 pts · 243d
Or add it to the list of onboarding steps at the very beginning. Otherwise, it's either on by default or off by default, and our (or Mozilla's) definition of "easy" is entirely open to interpretation.
Manjushri@piefed.social · 75 pts · 243d
Headline is misleading. That is one sentence from a list of three points.
I think the more important statement, and one that I agree with, is in the first point.
If this is the goal then I agree. Mush as AI annoys me, I don't care if they build AI features into the browser. There are enough people that do want AI features for it makes sense to do so. But it needs to be optional. I don't want to have to keep going into about:config to disable AI features that should have been opt-in in the first place.
actionjbone@sh.itjust.works · 48 pts · 243d
No.
AI is something that the user can easily turn on.
If somebody is forced to turn it off before they can use their browser, it's not actually optional.
Rhaedas@fedia.io · 28 pts · 243d
The best choice is to let the user know that such a feature is available first, ask if they want it on, and tell them how to turn it on if they say no. The problem with having things off by default is that most people don't look around the options, they go with what they're given. This isn't even about AI, but features in general.
Myself on both Firefox and DuckDuckGo I saw the AI selection prominently displayed and I disabled it. Be transparent, but that includes letting your users know things are there.
snooggums@piefed.world · 1 pts · 243d
I hate starting an app and being forced to choose between things that I have no idea what they are or whether I would want them right when it starts. Just leave it off and let me turn it on when I want to, thanks.
FaceDeer@fedia.io · 9 pts · 243d
This word "optional", I do not think it means what you think it means.
actionjbone@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 243d
If something is enabled prior to receiving user consent, it's not truly optional.
TrickDacy@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 243d
This got upvoted. A comment that literally doesn't understand the definition of the word "optional". Man, do better Lemmings.
grue@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 243d
No, fuck that. I am sick and tired of having shit pushed at me and then it being made my responsibility to be eternally hypervigilent to avoid it. It's abusive and fucking shame on you for defending it!
TrickDacy@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 243d
Yes, the only way to talk about something you don't like is to bend the actual meaning of words to make it sound worse.
...or, we can just respect what words mean. Big ask, I know.
I have turned off every AI feature I can in Firefox and most any other app. I'm not DeFeNdInG jack shit.
Zombie@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 242d
What if, instead of having to go to the effort of turning it all off, it's already off though?
Consent in any other scenario doesn't have yes as the default option, why tolerate it in the tech world? (Autocorrect changed tech to greedy, that's perhaps more accurate)
TrickDacy@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 242d
That's a different conversation. I'm trying to call someone on lying. "Optional" has a very simple meaning.
Zombie@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 242d
Optional has a very simple meaning if you ignore the context of the conversion.
Consider the question "Would you like to be punched in the face or not?" You have the option to choose either, but before you answer I'll start punching you in the face anyway. Do you see how consent is a requirement of optional in that context?
The same applies for many options in life, the default is almost always "no". Firefox should make this opt-in, not opt-out for the same reason.
If you're still not convinced by the argument of consent (which, ooft, red flag if you're not) then also consider the uproar in both this thread and around the internet/tech world because of this decision by Mozilla. All they have to do is change it from opt-out to opt-in and all this outrage disappears. But they haven't. Why?
actionjbone@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 243d
If something is enabled prior to receiving user consent, it's not truly optional.
Truscape@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 243d
TBF if our society and data harvesting practices have taught us anything, it's that the majority of users do not have the willingness or the basic understandings needed to opt out of the default settings. The amount of "install it and forget it" users is astounding.
TrickDacy@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 243d
That's definitely true. I was just criticizing flagrantly redefining a word.
milk@discuss.tchncs.de · -1 pts · 242d
Lemmy has such a hard-on for hating AI that it ignores what I consider to be basic facts. This, combined with the fact that Lemmy leans technical, means being out of touch is common. Seeing suggestions in this thread that the AI features should be opt in is absurd because no-one will use them because 90% of people don't change settings.
The hate for Mozilla also seems short sighted. Mozilla has to follow the group to try to gain marketshare or at least keep what it has. Firefox's marketshare is dwindling and if it gets low enough it will die, which would be bad for everyone
Grass@sh.itjust.works · 23 pts · 243d
choices like this should always be opt in, not opt out
ilinamorato@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 243d
I generally agree, but if there's a switch at install time, I don't really care what the default value is.
Zombie@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 242d
So for those that don't care, what's the problem with off being the default?
Those that do care would prefer it, those that don't care don't care.
ilinamorato@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 242d
I don't think there is a problem, from the user standpoint.
pglpm@lemmy.ca · 11 pts · 243d
The possibility of choice is a relief. But if one has a lot of storage bloat for some "features" one doesn't use, that's annoying.
XLE@piefed.social · 7 pts · 243d
Personally, I find all this talk of "choice" from Mozilla to be a red herring. What exactly does it mean?
When Mozilla introduced telemetry, they had to give us a reason. They had to promise it was good because it would help them develop their browser. But with talk of "choice," Mozilla simply implies AI is good without explaining how.
Manjushri@piefed.social · 2 pts · 243d
That's a good point.
FaceDeer@fedia.io · 7 pts · 243d
Sheesh. Out of the 20 comments in this thread this is the only one that actually addressed the contents of the article, the rest of them were all talking about what other browser they were using or going to be using now or just vaguely griping about how much they hate AI.
Are there any other Firefox communities that are actually about Firefox?
specialseaweed@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 243d
I've used Firefox for a long ass time but let's be honest here.. a LOT of recent history has been trying to figure out how to turn off whatever new feature they've been putting energy into. Their community sees them as a tool and they see themselves as an ecosystem. That disconnect is a problem.
Vincent@feddit.nl · 4 pts · 243d
Honestly, sometimes it feels like folks are more obsessed about AI than Big Tech CEOs are. With native vertical tabs, tab groups, and the new profiles, there are more new things in Firefox I've been excited about than in the years before, but everybody's only talking about AI.
yoasif@fedia.io · 4 pts · 243d
Why not talk about that stuff instead of AI? That's on the new CEO, not the community.
Vincent@feddit.nl · 1 pts · 243d
I'm happy to criticise him for that too, but that doesn't mean that folks don't drag AI into every slightly related or even completely unrelated threads too.
FaceDeer@fedia.io · 0 pts · 243d
I wasn't aware that he was a moderator here, deciding what threads people create or comment on.
The_Decryptor@aussie.zone · 2 pts · 243d
This reads like marketing, but also other browsers have this stuff anyway? It's not a selling point anymore.
Vincent@feddit.nl · 3 pts · 243d
It's just a list of recent additions I'm excited about. Of course they come on top of a browser I was already consciously using, so they're just there to sweeten the deal, not as unique selling points by themselves.
Kazumara@discuss.tchncs.de · 6 pts · 243d
It's weird that they want firefox to grow into an ecosystem. They only recently kicked Thunderbird out of the ecosystem.
tomorrow@leminal.space · 56 pts · 243d
Oh, geez.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 243d
My same reaction. Sometimes you just need to do one thing well, particularly when they thing you're doing is this very general use multipurpose interfacing tool.
Wildmimic@anarchist.nexus · 1 pts · 243d
although:
I have no issue with the option being available, i have an issue when i do not get an option at all.
pory@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 243d
Ignore all the AI stuff. I do not want my web browser to ever "evolve" into "more than a web browser". I want it to be a web browser. I do not want an "ecosystem" of related products. I want a web browser.
Wildmimic@anarchist.nexus · 1 pts · 243d
I agree that would be ideal, but if you look at how Firefox lost popularity over the last decade, it's obvious that "just a browser" doesn't seem to cut it anymore in todays integrated IT landscape if you want a relevant marketshare, making sure you don't just get ignored when sweeping changes are made by the likes of Google and co.
I'd say let them cook, he seems at least to know that respecting user choice and clear communication is important to make sure people don't lose trust in your brand, something that the previous leadership didn't demonstrate tbh. The browser landscape is depressing enough, i don't think it can get much worse.
pory@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 243d
I'll stick with "just a browser", specifically one derived directly from Firefox (FF being free software is the only good thing about FF that Mozilla won't revoke or change). Mozilla lost my custom and I'm not responsible for cheerleading for them.
Check out the reply to this from the lead of the Waterfox project. Would I rather use a browser by the guy promising to turn my browser into an "ecosystem" of tools, or the one saying:
"Waterfox will not include LLMs. Full stop."
"The browser’s job is to serve you, not to think for you. That core Waterfox principle hasn’t changed, and it won’t."
"If AI browsers dominate and then falter, if users discover they want something simpler and more trustworthy, Waterfox will still be here, marching patiently along. We’ve been here before. When Firefox abandoned XUL extensions, Waterfox Classic preserved them. When Mozilla started adding telemetry and Pocket and sponsored content, Waterfox stripped it out. I like to think that where there is want for a browser that simply respects you, Waterfox has delivered."
"Waterfox exists because some users want a browser that simply works well at being a browser. The UI is mature - arguably, it has been a solved for problem for years. The customisation features are available and apparent. The focus is on performance and web standards."
And hey, because Waterfox is a Firefox fork, that oh so precious user agent data people love to bring up to dissuade people from leaving poor Mozilla to shrivel up is still telling websites 'yep, this is a Gecko engine browser'.
stoy@lemmy.zip · 45 pts · 243d
Dear AI Techbros.
Why is AI in my browser something desirable for the common man?
T00l_shed@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 243d
It helps shareholders. Obligatory, I'm not a techbro
Someonelol@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 243d
Mozilla's a non-profit so what shareholders need to be please by bolting on this garbage to their browser?
veniasilente@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 6 pts · 243d
Google's.
vga@sopuli.xyz · 2 pts · 243d
Because you could theoretically order it to never show you stupid manipulative shit propaganda & brainrot and thus reclaim your spiritual/political/social life.
Disclaimer: I have not investigated at all how browsers are actually trying to apply AI.
Quazatron@lemmy.world · 28 pts · 243d
What I want: a secure browser that does just that and nothing more.
I'm so sick of AI everything.
gustofwind@lemmy.world · 25 pts · 243d
I’ve already switched to librewolf because of the ai update
It’s really just a matter of trust and they’ve clearly chosen to trust ai first and users second. That’s why you must turn it off instead of having to turn it on.
sad state of affairs
atro_city@fedia.io · 1 pts · 243d
LibreWolf. Sounds vicious. I'll give it a try!
Empricorn@feddit.nl · 25 pts · 243d
No. One. Wants. That.
We have nowhere better to go. But that's only for now, you short-sighted dumbass...
Linktank@lemmy.today · 21 pts · 243d
Boo this man!
explodicle@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 243d
BOOOOOOOO
FUsername@feddit.org · 1 pts · 242d
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUH!
bagsy@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 243d
I guess im looking for a new browser. Anyone have a good alternative?
CodyIwatzky@lemmy.cafe · 14 pts · 243d
How about LibreWolf?
https://chaos.social/@librewolf/115716906957137196
hal_5700X@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 243d
Here's some folks. Zen, Floorp, Waterfox, LibreWolf, Fennec, and IronFox.
voytrekk@sopuli.xyz · 14 pts · 243d
Are the first and third points not contradicting? Having control over AI in the browser means that the browser cannot be AI first. Maybe they need to step back and look at their core audience and a shifting user preference for less big tech and more control.
I think the biggest thing that they can do is look at what the Firefox forks are doing and try and implement the features that led to people leaving. I'm using Zen not only for the addition features and UI elements it brings, but also the things that it chooses not to include.
They can also look at what IronFox and LibreWolf do to create a new built in profile that maximizes privacy and security trading off convenience.
Finally, they have failed to capture new users when google is blocking ad blockers. When you have a smaller market share you need to take advantage of your competitor's mistakes.
natecox@programming.dev · 13 pts · 243d
voytrekk@sopuli.xyz · 4 pts · 243d
I'm worried you are right as well. Fortunately there are a number of great Firefox forks. I just wish they would put more focus into their core product.
One thing that really baffles me is that they aren't getting any revenue for having a default AI or something like that. Surely one of these companies would pay some decent money to have their AI agent as the default just as Google does for search.
Delta_V@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 243d
It seems like Mozilla's end game is to become a rival to Google for advertising revenue.
Google's stranglehold on search produces a huge volume of hugely valuable user data. That data + search market share drives demand for their advertising products.
If Mozilla can embed an LLM in their browser that meets people's search needs, then Mozilla and their 'AI' will be the ones hoovering up gobs of user data and selling the data and advertising space to marketers.
AshMan85@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 243d
Time for me to switch
ImgurRefugee114@reddthat.com · -11 pts · 243d
I'm looking into Helium. It's chrome-based but at this point I might as well use something that works
ThePowerOfGeek@lemmy.world · 24 pts · 243d
Why not Waterfox or one of the other open source Firefox forks?
ImgurRefugee114@reddthat.com · 1 pts · 243d
That's still alive? I thought it became mostly irrelevant Pale Moon... Anyway, last I looked it was buggy, out of date, and vulnerable. I use librewolf and it has pretty quick updates and doesn't follow ESR.
The only decent browsers seem to be downstreams with shit ripped out of them, with some exceptions like Floorp. Helium adds and changes things to improve UX which makes me curious about where it's going...
Firefox is already a second-class citizen on the web, and forks of it tend to be sloppy. I'm holding out some hope for a future with ladybird but until something like that happens, the gap between "chrome with shit ripped out" and "Firefox with shit ripped out" will be quite small in terms of privacy and security; but chromium ones will have an edge in compatibility.
ThePowerOfGeek@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 243d
Interesting. Looks like Waterfox's last release was 9 days ago.
ETA: I know the Firefox based browsers sometimes have problems rendering pages, but from what I've seen that's become less of an issue over time (it used to be a pretty big problem). I'm avoiding Chrome-based browsers wherever possible because of how the extension ecosystem has been wrecked by Google.
yoasif@fedia.io · 1 pts · 243d
Interesting UI, terrible font rendering on Linux at least.
Binturong@lemmy.ca · 13 pts · 242d
I'm so fucking tired of CEOs and their shit-ass ideas
Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 13 pts · 243d
You either die a hero or live long enought to become the villain
boaratio@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 242d
What a douche.
agent_nycto@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 242d
Everyone hated that
solomonschuler@lemmy.zip · 11 pts · 243d
als@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 242d
Or even better surely would be contributing to gnome web directly?
foggianism@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 242d
"Modern", "AI" - buzzwords for shareholders
Lemminary@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 243d
Fucking yikes.
HulkSmashBurgers@reddthat.com · 9 pts · 243d
Hey Mozilla, any chance you could add the ability to add tags to bookmarks on mobile during this evolution?
Or make add-on settings/configuration container specific (noscript forex)?
mp3@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 243d
Would be great if pinned shortcuts and collections would get synced as well.
HulkSmashBurgers@reddthat.com · 2 pts · 243d
Yes that too!
HulkSmashBurgers@reddthat.com · 1 pts · 243d
Yes that too!
nostrauxendar@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 243d
Gross.
mos@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 243d
Damn. Any good recommendations for alternatives?
miguel@fedia.io · 11 pts · 243d
ServantOfRa@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 243d
Librewolf or Floorp I guess. They work well enough, though Librewolf might be a bit too opinionated for some.
HouseWolf@pawb.social · 4 pts · 243d
I use LibreWolf but tell most people to use Waterfox since it's just Firefox without Mozilla's crap.
lambalicious@lemmy.sdf.org · 7 pts · 243d
Mozilla is a lost cause, and Firefox is too big to be rescued by one singular web-browsing development entity (that's because the web has become too complicated so as to allow for terminal capitalism).
The solution is, honestly, for a well-constituted organization to hard-fork the web standards model as a whole package, to start a sort of "re-web" project. Pick up something like gemini but iterate it to a level where it can actually be useful (gemini, nifty as it is, is actually less capable of layout and styling than the printing press from the 1500s and that's saying something). Maintain a "convertible subset" of HTML+CSS as an input option for people who want to maintain and develop simple sites that might want to eventually convert to re-web.
kuneho@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 243d
it's like that by design, that's the point of the protocoll
lambalicious@lemmy.sdf.org · 2 pts · 242d
Yeah but that doesn't really help much if the goal is "the web, but mote vintage of it". My impression of gemini is it's more like, to publish things you'd read on a beeper from the 90s.
sansrealname@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 242d
We meager 2% of browser users are not the customer base Mozilla is targeting for with stuff like this. This isn't for us - it's for the other 98% that Mozilla desperately wants to attract. I wouldn't necessarily say we 2% don't matter to Mozilla, but the fact is, losing us to gain something like 10% of the market would be a huge success for Mozilla.
XLE@piefed.social · 8 pts · 242d
This definitely sounds like what Mozilla wants to do, but who will care? People who want AI in the browser already have Edge and browsers developed by AI companies. Mozilla is just arriving late to the party, the same way they did with VR.
sansrealname@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 242d
Yeah, I agree. Mozilla is just jumping on the bandwagon. It's unlikely to change anything for them.
CubitOom@infosec.pub · 5 pts · 243d
Oh boy, I can't wait for ladybird's alpha release
albbi@piefed.ca · 2 pts · 243d
Just subscribed to the newsletter.
veniasilente@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 243d
Funded by fascists, last I heard.
tatann@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 243d
Care to elaborate ? Because of the Proton sponsor ?
veniasilente@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 240d
They are getting both Proton and Cloudflare sponsoring IIRC. Plus the dev has a history.
Endymion_Mallorn@kbin.melroy.org · 4 pts · 243d
Well, I guess we just need to move to Ladybird. Either that or my browsing is going to become entirely curl + Links.
miked@piefed.social · 2 pts · 243d
Are you all raw-dogging whatever Mozilla spits out?
There are many forks that remove their insanity.
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 2 pts · 242d
Eww.
TwinTitans@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 243d
So uninstall?