::: spoiler "meat honey"
The vulture bee is sometimes said to produce a so-called "meat honey", but this is a misnomer resulting from scientific uncertainty, due to historic confusion of multiple species, each with a slightly different method of processing.
In one detailed study of Trigona hypogea in Brazil, the vulture bees mixed sugary plant products with a proteinaceous paste from regurgitated meat, and let it mature to form a sweet substance that was used as food; however, the two resources were initially kept in separate "pots" in the colony, neither being true honey (i.e., not derived from nectar), but they were then mixed together.
In a different study of Trigona necrophaga in Panama, the bees gathered nectar and produced honey, and they also produced a glandular secretion, derived from carrion, partially metabolized, used as a protein source, and kept completely separate from the honey. In neither case were the bees mixing meat-based substances with floral-derived substances.
:::
On bed of mottled rocks
Amid flowers cold as ice
Pray the weak, the old, the poor
And when the tiny one from Heaven comes
Crawls inside the chosen skull
And when the tiny one it summons the others
To crawl inside the chosen skull
They build their castles in the heads of kings
Bring life to the empty halls
They build their castles in the heads of kings
And honey will flow once more
Once more
Amorphis! Their lyricist does a great job adapting the Finnish spoken histories. ZERO idea if this is one of them, though it references the shores of Tuonela. I highly recommend the clean/acoustic version of My Kantele https://youtu.be/UufaC2TI7dg
In one detailed study of Trigona hypogea in Brazil, the vulture bees mixed sugary plant products with a proteinaceous paste from regurgitated meat, and let it mature to form a sweet substance that was used as food; however, the two resources were initially kept in separate "pots" in the colony, neither being true honey (i.e., not derived from nectar), but they were then mixed together.
So it's not incorporated in the honey. They have a separate protein stache.
Fascinating. It's worth mentioning that (normal) honey can be used to preserve meat, thanks to its antimicrobial and hydrophilic properties. I guess that's what's going on here too: they use a kind of nectar honey to keep the meat component from going off. That said, this kind of food preservation isn't immune to botulism so do be careful if you try this.
Now I'm wondering when/how this behavior evolved. Did these guys come first, and honeybees figured out how to eat pollen as a protein source as an evolutionary step, the other way around, or separately at the same time from some parent species?
Using their extra-toothed mandible, they will slice and chew the flesh off, coating the meat in their acid-rich saliva before consumption. The bee will transport the chewed carrion back to the colony where it’s regurgitated into wax pots, different from the honey pots.
Here, the meat will be mixed with honey and left to mature over a period of 14 days. During this curing time, it will become a paste-like substance that is rich in free amino acids and sugars. This paste is fed to their young, who need it to grow.
So basically a potted meat but with sugar instead of fat. Apparently they also keep normal honey that's separate from the meat honey. Bees are so fucking cool.
Like is that at all surprising? Starvation was a leading cause of death through much of history and pre-history, of course folks start to eat and drink dubious things. Ever heard of folks sucking the eyes out of fish to get fresh water? That's on the milder end of what our instincts will force us to do under the right circumstances.
Ok, as I understood it, there is "edible honey" that is really plant-based, and "carrion meat-based protein storage" that kind of works like pollen storage in honeybees nest. TBH, I find pollen more nutritional and tasty than honey. And I know that honey bees are opportunistic carnivores too. These things kind of come together in a story better left untold.
It totally is! I'm allergic to several types of pollen, also I live in the middle of the forest and am a beekeeper. My stomach hurts when I eat that stuff. Nothing of this stops me; I also love Spring. I feel quite sick now, too (well, cold weather came back and it's a bit easier than 2 days ago). Good that I have mild allergy, I'd be dead by now if I had it hard. When birch flowers unusually hard, I sometimes have a symptom that feels like how people describe asthma.
Maybe some day I'll get desensibilized enough, after eating this stuff regularly. Maybe I'll die trying.
My neighbor doctor - also a beekeeper - says that many people who perceive honey as slightly spicy actually get allergic reaction from traces of pollen in it. He also thinks my strategy of eating pollen to overcome allergy should eventually work; I think I just like the taste too much to stop.
The trick with pollen I've discovered is that as soon as it is extracted from the honeycomb, it starts quickly degrading; whenever it's sold, it's bleak tasteless flavorless powder, not even close to explosion of flavor that happens when you chew on a fresh blob right from the honeycomb (usually with the honeycomb, who cares, it's edible too. Almost everything inside the nest is edible, apart form the frames and other human-made nonsense). Apparently you can get the stuff only from an actual beekeeper (or by raiding wild bees nest probably, I think it's not a good idea though), and I only figured it out when I started keeping bees!
I guess it's getting a bit easier by the year; but I mean, until it's gone completely, I couldn't really tell. I'm basing my "strategy" on same anecdotic knowledge you mentioned, although I've never seen it proven right or wrong in a methodical research; I don't really care, it's not that if I know it for certain anything will change, I'll just keep living here and eat the stuff.
I went to look for a paper or other reputable source for my assertion, and to my surprise it is largely regarded as myth as the bees don't consume the right vegetation to produce the right honey to counter things like tree pollen or grass.
What? I literally can see them collecting alder pollen in huge quantities, carrying it on their hind legs like cavalry pants and forming into highly nutritional tubes, it's possible to trace them from tree to hive - well, it's not that there is any other pollen source here now anyway. And when I collect honey, quite some amount of this stuff falls down into the tank, not mentioning cross contamination in "pollen is processed at the same facility" honey manufacturing business bees are running. At least that part of the story is certainly true, that gives some basis to disregarding the conclusions of the meta-research you found.
You have me dying to go out an try pollen, though I know for a fact I'm allergic already lol. Hay fever and spring allergies leave me a.mess but darn it if I don't want to go an eat pollen now!
Mind you, as far as I understand, bees convert it a bit too, so it might be somewhat slightly less aggressive than just flying particles in the air or sniffing a flower. Kind of "allergic vaccine" if that mechanism works, which, again, I'm not certain about.
It's their protein source; honey is pretty much carbs-only, good in winter, when they just keep warm, but raising kids on that is not good. Besides, bees are wasps, and wasps are carnivores, they need protein and mostly eat pollen protein in summer if they can. Honeybees eat flesh too, including cannibalism, just less often than plant material - apparently, with organized labor veganism turned out to be more effective, at least for them. No morals behind it, pure business.
Actually, that's a really good point to which I really want to know the answer. We have to assume that, since it's effectively fermented meat, the prion would survive, but maybe they're really efficient at turning all of the protein into unbound amino acids?
Another one to add to the list when someone claims intelligent design. Approached from evolution, this makes sense - what works becomes a thing. And while it's disgusting to us, it's just a process and they're doing their part to help the cycle. From an ID pov... what the living fuck?
So, basically: Rotting flesh-eating zombie bees produce honey which few outside of a certain cultural milieu will ever find appetizing or acceptable? 😃
103 Comments
coalie@piefed.zip · 163 pts · 161d
::: spoiler "meat honey" The vulture bee is sometimes said to produce a so-called "meat honey", but this is a misnomer resulting from scientific uncertainty, due to historic confusion of multiple species, each with a slightly different method of processing.
In one detailed study of Trigona hypogea in Brazil, the vulture bees mixed sugary plant products with a proteinaceous paste from regurgitated meat, and let it mature to form a sweet substance that was used as food; however, the two resources were initially kept in separate "pots" in the colony, neither being true honey (i.e., not derived from nectar), but they were then mixed together.
In a different study of Trigona necrophaga in Panama, the bees gathered nectar and produced honey, and they also produced a glandular secretion, derived from carrion, partially metabolized, used as a protein source, and kept completely separate from the honey. In neither case were the bees mixing meat-based substances with floral-derived substances. :::
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulture_bee
snoons@lemmy.ca · 109 pts · 161d
panda_abyss@lemmy.ca · 51 pts · 161d
There needs to be metal band called Vulture Bees, this is too metal.
obre@slrpnk.net · 25 pts · 161d
Not exactly what you meant, but the first thing that came to mind
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Earth/The_Bees_Made_Honey_in_the_Lion's_Skull/178274
prettybunnys@piefed.social · 27 pts · 161d
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf_4uvymwRw
YetAnotherNerd@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 160d
Amorphis! Their lyricist does a great job adapting the Finnish spoken histories. ZERO idea if this is one of them, though it references the shores of Tuonela. I highly recommend the clean/acoustic version of My Kantele https://youtu.be/UufaC2TI7dg
TheOneAndOnly@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 160d
Well that was certainly... Something.
Akasazh@lemmy.world · 41 pts · 161d
So it's not incorporated in the honey. They have a separate protein stache.
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world · 52 pts · 161d
A protein stache would be part of a meat beard.
Akasazh@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 161d
I'll keep the typo up because of this <3
ToffeeIsForClosers@piefed.ca · 2 pts · 161d
And both of these are great metal band names as well.
dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 161d
Fascinating. It's worth mentioning that (normal) honey can be used to preserve meat, thanks to its antimicrobial and hydrophilic properties. I guess that's what's going on here too: they use a kind of nectar honey to keep the meat component from going off. That said, this kind of food preservation isn't immune to botulism so do be careful if you try this.
Now I'm wondering when/how this behavior evolved. Did these guys come first, and honeybees figured out how to eat pollen as a protein source as an evolutionary step, the other way around, or separately at the same time from some parent species?
Mandarbmax@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 161d
I just came into the comments to post that. Thank you!
RaoulDuke85@piefed.social · 9 pts · 161d
My mudhoney cover band.
0ops@piefed.zip · 7 pts · 161d
No it's my Meat Puppets cover band
RaoulDuke85@piefed.social · 3 pts · 161d
BruisedMoose@piefed.social · 3 pts · 161d
Every Good Boy Deserves Meat Honey
RaoulDuke85@piefed.social · 2 pts · 161d
Superbuzz Meatmuff
Chee_Koala@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 161d
Buzzing Barfmunchers
quantumcrop@lemmy.today · 90 pts · 161d
Source
So basically a potted meat but with sugar instead of fat. Apparently they also keep normal honey that's separate from the meat honey. Bees are so fucking cool.
5715@feddit.org · 78 pts · 161d
Nature does depravity.
Humans: "Is it edible?"
rollerbang@lemmy.world · 32 pts · 161d
While I would agree on the surface, it's not really depravity. We've got to do away with rotting meat somehow. Hence why vultures are so important.
Still upvoted though.
5715@feddit.org · 9 pts · 161d
I just wanted to use that word... The whole sentence is just a word game given that personifying environment into nature is common, but wrong.
Geobloke@aussie.zone · 26 pts · 161d
Have you ever thought about blue cheese？
"Let's try drinking the milk from an animal"
"Oh, it's kinda gross and solid ish now. Still tastes good though"
"Oh wait, it's gone really mouldy. Let's slap it on some chicken wings"
5715@feddit.org · 10 pts · 161d
Animal cheese connoisseurs be like: Our food culture grew by one diarrhoea at a time.
Nikls94@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 160d
People learning about mushrooms: This one tastes like beef, this one killed bob instantly, and that one made me see god for 2 weeks
vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 161d
Like is that at all surprising? Starvation was a leading cause of death through much of history and pre-history, of course folks start to eat and drink dubious things. Ever heard of folks sucking the eyes out of fish to get fresh water? That's on the milder end of what our instincts will force us to do under the right circumstances.
negativenull@piefed.world · 64 pts · 161d
IRL Zerg home base
Whirlygirl9@kbin.earth · 20 pts · 161d
We require more Vespene gas
Gsus4@mander.xyz · 59 pts · 161d
https://beeswiki.com/vulture-bees/
carrion/necrophage honey
...graphic
filcuk@lemmy.zip · 37 pts · 160d
Phew that's good to know! Nearly gourged myself on some corpse honey
Sphks@jlai.lu · 11 pts · 160d
It's strange that it doesn't taste like rotten flesh.
Gsus4@mander.xyz · 10 pts · 160d
I read it tastes a bit more like cheese/butter.
HeroicBillyBishop@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 160d
Thank you, this comment made me feel unwell
chiliedogg@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 160d
Because regular honey tastes just like pollen?
Sphks@jlai.lu · 2 pts · 159d
No it doesn't. It would be strange. Regular honey is made from nectar.
IntrovertTurtle@lemmy.zip · 52 pts · 161d
No thanks, I'm good.
87Six@lemmy.zip · 20 pts · 161d
No good, I'm thanks, dad
What
ouRKaoS@lemmy.today · 47 pts · 161d
That hive looks like I'm not high enough level to fight whatever is in there.
e_chao@lemmy.world · 37 pts · 161d
ICastFist@programming.dev · 2 pts · 160d
Sounds like it goes great with normal meat
OldQWERTYbastard@lemmy.world · 33 pts · 160d
otter@lemmy.ca · 28 pts · 160d
This one probably needs a NSFW filter, for "I was eating" reasons 😅
Gonzako@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 160d
NSFE
SsxChaos@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 85d
NSFF Not Safe For Food
sober_monk@lemmy.world · 27 pts · 161d
Well, I know what my players are facing next time they venture into the Underdark...
ArmoredThirteen@lemmy.zip · 18 pts · 161d
Are they facing the person who decided to test the edibility of the corpse nest?
sober_monk@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 161d
Now that you mention it, hell yes they are!
manmachine@lemmy.world · 27 pts · 161d
I think I saw that in Dead Space
bluesheep@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 161d
Was about to say, this is some resident evil type shit
umbrella@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 161d
raven@lemmy.org · 26 pts · 160d
I would not want the honey from Resident Evil anywhere near my breakfast.
massive_bereavement@fedia.io · 25 pts · 161d
From the entomologic side: this is so interesting, thanks for sharing.
From the Mothership RPG DM side: this is so useful, thanks for sharing.
Moxie_empathizer@lemmy.world · 24 pts · 161d
So busy with "could" didn't worry with "should"
alzymologist@sopuli.xyz · 21 pts · 161d
Ok, as I understood it, there is "edible honey" that is really plant-based, and "carrion meat-based protein storage" that kind of works like pollen storage in honeybees nest. TBH, I find pollen more nutritional and tasty than honey. And I know that honey bees are opportunistic carnivores too. These things kind of come together in a story better left untold.
pennomi@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 161d
alzymologist@sopuli.xyz · 21 pts · 161d
It totally is! I'm allergic to several types of pollen, also I live in the middle of the forest and am a beekeeper. My stomach hurts when I eat that stuff. Nothing of this stops me; I also love Spring. I feel quite sick now, too (well, cold weather came back and it's a bit easier than 2 days ago). Good that I have mild allergy, I'd be dead by now if I had it hard. When birch flowers unusually hard, I sometimes have a symptom that feels like how people describe asthma.
Maybe some day I'll get desensibilized enough, after eating this stuff regularly. Maybe I'll die trying.
My neighbor doctor - also a beekeeper - says that many people who perceive honey as slightly spicy actually get allergic reaction from traces of pollen in it. He also thinks my strategy of eating pollen to overcome allergy should eventually work; I think I just like the taste too much to stop.
The trick with pollen I've discovered is that as soon as it is extracted from the honeycomb, it starts quickly degrading; whenever it's sold, it's bleak tasteless flavorless powder, not even close to explosion of flavor that happens when you chew on a fresh blob right from the honeycomb (usually with the honeycomb, who cares, it's edible too. Almost everything inside the nest is edible, apart form the frames and other human-made nonsense). Apparently you can get the stuff only from an actual beekeeper (or by raiding wild bees nest probably, I think it's not a good idea though), and I only figured it out when I started keeping bees!
crazycraw@crazypeople.online · 5 pts · 161d
the thing is, eating the honey from the local area where you have allergies, helps your system build a tolerance to inflammation when encountering it.
i can only anecdotally claim "it helped me!" but it's not like a universal allergy relief.
i would have thought you would have observed a difference to -something by now.
alzymologist@sopuli.xyz · 4 pts · 161d
I guess it's getting a bit easier by the year; but I mean, until it's gone completely, I couldn't really tell. I'm basing my "strategy" on same anecdotic knowledge you mentioned, although I've never seen it proven right or wrong in a methodical research; I don't really care, it's not that if I know it for certain anything will change, I'll just keep living here and eat the stuff.
crazycraw@crazypeople.online · 3 pts · 161d
I went to look for a paper or other reputable source for my assertion, and to my surprise it is largely regarded as myth as the bees don't consume the right vegetation to produce the right honey to counter things like tree pollen or grass.
alzymologist@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 161d
What? I literally can see them collecting alder pollen in huge quantities, carrying it on their hind legs like cavalry pants and forming into highly nutritional tubes, it's possible to trace them from tree to hive - well, it's not that there is any other pollen source here now anyway. And when I collect honey, quite some amount of this stuff falls down into the tank, not mentioning cross contamination in "pollen is processed at the same facility" honey manufacturing business bees are running. At least that part of the story is certainly true, that gives some basis to disregarding the conclusions of the meta-research you found.
Zoot@reddthat.com · 3 pts · 161d
You have me dying to go out an try pollen, though I know for a fact I'm allergic already lol. Hay fever and spring allergies leave me a.mess but darn it if I don't want to go an eat pollen now!
alzymologist@sopuli.xyz · 2 pts · 161d
Mind you, as far as I understand, bees convert it a bit too, so it might be somewhat slightly less aggressive than just flying particles in the air or sniffing a flower. Kind of "allergic vaccine" if that mechanism works, which, again, I'm not certain about.
Windex007@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 161d
What do bees need pollen for? I thought bees just got bukkaked as an co-evolutionary repayment for the nectar they're jacking?
alzymologist@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 160d
It's their protein source; honey is pretty much carbs-only, good in winter, when they just keep warm, but raising kids on that is not good. Besides, bees are wasps, and wasps are carnivores, they need protein and mostly eat pollen protein in summer if they can. Honeybees eat flesh too, including cannibalism, just less often than plant material - apparently, with organized labor veganism turned out to be more effective, at least for them. No morals behind it, pure business.
sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz · 18 pts · 161d
Alright. I would. Gimme the goo.
Or would I contract a prion from it?
wolframhydroxide@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 161d
Actually, that's a really good point to which I really want to know the answer. We have to assume that, since it's effectively fermented meat, the prion would survive, but maybe they're really efficient at turning all of the protein into unbound amino acids?
DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 160d
There's a whole raft of things that are technically edible, that I want nowhere near my mouth. Add this to the list.
ramenshaman@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 161d
That's pretty metal
ryannathans@aussie.zone · 3 pts · 161d
No it's meat honey
Doomsider@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 161d
They are also stingless, how interesting.
Gumus@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 8 pts · 160d
Corpses don't usually fight back...
expatriado@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 161d
when i hear couples calling each other honey, this is what i will picture in my head
Akasazh@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 161d
Dark, yet uplifting
spankinspinach@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 161d
I can't explain why, but this got a lol
Akasazh@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 161d
I'm glad it did!
Rhaedas@fedia.io · 12 pts · 161d
Another one to add to the list when someone claims intelligent design. Approached from evolution, this makes sense - what works becomes a thing. And while it's disgusting to us, it's just a process and they're doing their part to help the cycle. From an ID pov... what the living fuck?
LurkingLuddite@piefed.social · 7 pts · 161d
Clearly going through a death metal phase.
prettybunnys@piefed.social · 4 pts · 161d
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf_4uvymwRw
Death Metal bees are a thing
crazycraw@crazypeople.online · 3 pts · 161d
yeppers. looks like it's still forming it's name.
BuboScandiacus@mander.xyz · 11 pts · 161d
That means someone tried it out
kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 161d
Lovecraftian horror.
NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone · 9 pts · 161d
This is why their hive looks.
Sam_Bass@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 161d
Rotted bee vomit. No thx
InTheNameOfScheddi@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 160d
Regurgitated rotten flesh bee vomit* :)
Tja@programming.dev · 1 pts · 160d
Correct. Bee vomit doesn't rot.
DaedalousIlios@pawb.social · 9 pts · 161d
Babe, wake up! New Vita Carnis monster just dropped!
TyrionBean@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 160d
So, basically: Rotting flesh-eating zombie bees produce honey which few outside of a certain cultural milieu will ever find appetizing or acceptable? 😃
SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org · 8 pts · 161d
Alien Bees is what I'm getting from this
samus12345@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 160d
Weavess eye vibes.
senorblackbean@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 161d
Soylent Green Honey (tm)
RaoulDook@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 161d
Could be related to the term Bugonia that they made that recent movie not-exactly about. From Wikipedia:
"Bugonia was a folk practice in the ancient Mediterranean region based on the belief that bees were spontaneously generated from a cow's carcass."
So in the old days, they saw bees coming out of rotting cows (maybe these here vampar bees) and said "that's where bees come from"
juliebean@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 161d
probably unrelated. vulture bees are from south america.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulture_bee
garbage_world@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 160d
Zerush@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 161d
Always it's bee shit
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 8 pts · 161d
*Vomit, actually.
Zerush@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 161d
Not better
Kratzkopf@discuss.tchncs.de · 2 pts · 160d
But more accurate
melsaskca@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 160d
So, we can kill the flowers then?
Bloomcole@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 160d
Bugonia?
Avicenna@programming.dev · 2 pts · 160d
hard pass
sepi@piefed.social · 2 pts · 161d
This is right out of Scorn
rizzothesmall@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 160d
No
python@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 160d
They need to make a Dominion 2 just for this kinda shit
HumbleBragger@piefed.social · 1 pts · 161d
This looks a lot like other native south American stingless bee hives.
remon@ani.social · 1 pts · 161d
OldQWERTYbastard@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 160d
SsxChaos@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 85d
So.. when you say edible.. how many times can I eat it? Once? Twice? Everything is edible at least once so I just need to know..