Philips heads are designed to intentionally cam over and limit torque, if you’re using the correct screwdriver that is quite a lot of torque. They certainly have a usecase, but that isn’t anywhere near me. I only use torx.
Torx often ends up being the worst of both worlds imo. It grabs too hard and you can easily overdrive it and strip the hole in some material. And you can also still easily strip the head if you don't get the bit seated all the way. I think the Robertson combo head is the best all around, since you have a Robertson bit for high torque applications and a Phillips bit for low torque and slightly off axis work. And then the "ecx" bit for "I'm going to friction weld this terminal screw shut" applications.
What makes torx crap? Unlike hex, you can still screw them in if your screwdriver is at an angle, which can be really convenient if you're working at odd angles.
Yeah but with torx I don't need an extra bit to handle that, it's just a built in feature of the bit. It also doesn't answer why torx apparently sucks? "Hex can also do that if you have a special bit" doesn't make torx any worse.
Years ago when working in a boat shop at a “yachting center” aka “dudes with 20’ sailboats they’ve spent more effort repairing than their marriage” and I had a full wall of hardware.
An old school wooden hardware shelf.
My favorite thing ever in my whole life was being Willy wonka with fasteners and my rolly ladder
They do but you have to really work at it. I see them all the time as set screws on the fans in commercial ovens. Leave a set screw in an oven for years and that bastard will be so profoundly sized that you can round out even a hex screw.
Torx is great until you can’t really see the bolt in question and think you have the right bit but actually it’s slightly small and rounds off the bolt entirely.
As someone who has spent far more time than I want to think about removing screws and bolts that other people fucked, Robertson is the second most popular fastener to get brought to me with Torx in hot pursuit.
Philips head screws that are messed up come in two types. Soft cheese metal versions and the insidious Japanese style that are just ever sooo slightly different and require their own special driver. And most of you can't tell the difference or even care.
Plus, Y'all buy cheap ass "turn screws" as the British used to call them. When you buy dollar store quality tools you deserve what you get and I don't feel sorry for you.
So, I wanted to go at the guy for not reading your article but in reading it myself I did find possibly missing something. Like, they talk about them fitting within one another but then show that there are definitely differences. Maybe it’s a case of the same number screwdriver not being equal but +/- 1 number gets you back on track, I dunno.
The article definitely isn’t fully selling me on what they’re saying, though. I own a 1986 Ninja 1000 and have done extensive work to it(engine in half, whole bike in pieces at one point) and there was definitely something up with the bolts. I replaced them all with new button-head and socket-head hex bolts and life was much easier.
Tell that to guys with Japanese motorcycles. I still get people bringing me engine parts to remove the messed up screws. It costs real money to get me to fixture those parts in my mill and indicate the hole in and then very carefully remove your stupid.
The contemporary square-drive screw has all but replaced the Robertson screw proper and is commonly referred to as a Robertson because it has practically identical drive dimensions and the same colour identification system, but the contemporary square drive socket has parallel sides rather than tapered.
It’s not a square, it’s better than a square. One of the sides is ever-so-slightly angled, so the screws stick onto the screwdriver before you get them in place.
Robertson = Robertson. “Square-head” is not clear enough, same as saying “hex-head” and not being able to say definitively whether you need an allen key or a socket. It’s not that difficult, just learn things.
Dumbing the world down for Benny is only hurting the both of you. I truly believe that some people are just shockingly stupid and that’s the end of it but you say Roberston enough times, without being an asshole, and even they will figure it out.
The only reason they’re so common is because of Henry Ford. Ford wanted Robertson screws, but Ford also wanted to make his own screws in-house. Robertson wouldn’t license them, Philips would, the rest is history. Robertson screws are much more common than Philips up in Canada (where they’re from).
Wanna bet? Robertson is the second most popular screw people want me to remove. The cause is that they can't be arsed to inspect their tools and replace them when they are worn. It's the classic "I can do just one more".
Not with the craptastic tools you guys use. Plus the general thumb fingered, hoof handed, club footed skills most of have. And yes, I exclusively use a JIS spec'ed driver for Japanese cross head screws. The fit is far better and I have far few issues removing those screws.
People who don't do that have often ended up paying $100 per screw removal to me to un-fuck their ignorance. I have spent so much money on tools for broken bolt/screw removal that it isn't even funny anymore.
Also plastic clips on laptops, monitors or any small electronic, pretty much every time I open up something with those clips one of them just snaps apart.
JIS is only good for being cheap, and only works if you're a precision robot.
You lose the autocentering and overtorque protection of Phillips, without gaining any of the advantages of Torx.
(Phillips has overtorque protection in the sense that your tool doesn't break, the screw does; which doesn't matter if you don't need to unscrew it.)
The last time this thread came up there were some convincing comments suggesting that the over torque protection for philips was not an intended feature.
I thought the whole “JIS is different from Phillips” thing was a misunderstanding and JIS is just a type of Phillips or something and it and “regular” Phillips are more or less compatible
I have this iFixit guide as my source: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Choosing+the+Right+Screwdriver+Bit/93991#s176809
According to that, the JIS screws have orthogonal inner angles, while the Phillips' are rounded, resulting in the slipping bits.
However, some Phillips screwdrivers fill out that space, and thus won't fully go into a JIS screw, and effectively be too small, stripping it.
Using JIS basically requires buying a special high quality screwdriver set. A few years ago I bought a few Nintendo switch repair kits that came with JIS drivers, and ended up removing the screws with a drill. Since then I bought an ifixit kit, which has heads that are actually the right size - unfortunately it is too late for my poor switch, that is now slightly mangled beneath its case.
Funny thing is, torx was invented by apple out of greed so no one could open their devices. Turns out it's the best system, as it has the highest force distribution possible. It's the best screw system out there, so apple actually invented something good. Yet still they did it out of greed. After many got torx bits, they added a pin in the middle to make sure everyone's bits didn't fit anymore. This proves apple is, even though they invented the best screw system out there, still a shitty company.
My experience with Robertson is only electrical stuff made with softer steel. You can really reef on it, but it will hang on to your bit. Nice when you need a second hand, annoying when my 10-in-1 becomes an 8-in-1
I read that back in the day when mechinised fastening was needed they didn't have a way to track the torque on screws. So rather than have the machine over tighten and break the head off the screw, the Philips head would fail first keeping the screw in place
Torx is undoubtedly a better screw head, but I have so many drivers, especially the smaller ones, that have snapped heads. It's a manufacturing issue with the driver, not the screw head.
But I guess my comment still stands, you can complain about torx, but you absolutely can't compare it to how shit Philips is (including every variation and adaptation).
86 Comments
plateee@piefed.social · 53 pts · 4h
HA! Amateurs.
PriorityMotif@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 2h
Looks like the next guys problem.
needanke@feddit.org · 3 pts · 1h
Is that how drillbits are born?
Bonus@sopuli.xyz · 4 pts · 1h
*shorn
massive_bereavement@fedia.io · 25 pts · 8h
Use better screws, don't screw around.
Anchorxiety@reddthat.com · 29 pts · 6h
Quit screwing around! You all screw around too much!
arin@lemmy.world · 21 pts · 7h
better screws are torx
massive_bereavement@fedia.io · 12 pts · 7h
Material matters, if you use poorly made screws that's when the head gets blunted.
Natanox@discuss.tchncs.de · 11 pts · 6h
Philips screws are intentionally made to strip though. Even the best material can't fully offset bad design.
Junkers_Klunker@feddit.dk · 16 pts · 6h
Philips heads are designed to intentionally cam over and limit torque, if you’re using the correct screwdriver that is quite a lot of torque. They certainly have a usecase, but that isn’t anywhere near me. I only use torx.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 2h
I read that was just an afterthought to explain away why they strip out so easily, instead of actually redesigning them
socsa@piefed.social · 6 pts · 3h
Torx often ends up being the worst of both worlds imo. It grabs too hard and you can easily overdrive it and strip the hole in some material. And you can also still easily strip the head if you don't get the bit seated all the way. I think the Robertson combo head is the best all around, since you have a Robertson bit for high torque applications and a Phillips bit for low torque and slightly off axis work. And then the "ecx" bit for "I'm going to friction weld this terminal screw shut" applications.
5in1k@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 4h
Nah, Robertson. Torx is designed to destroy bits.
MoffKalast@lemmy.world · -7 pts · 6h
Better screws are hex. Torx belongs in the bin alongside slotted screws.
thebestaquaman@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 5h
What makes torx crap? Unlike hex, you can still screw them in if your screwdriver is at an angle, which can be really convenient if you're working at odd angles.
IrateAnteater@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 4h
They make hex keys with ball ends to handle that
thebestaquaman@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 4h
Yeah but with torx I don't need an extra bit to handle that, it's just a built in feature of the bit. It also doesn't answer why torx apparently sucks? "Hex can also do that if you have a special bit" doesn't make torx any worse.
IrateAnteater@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 2h
Why would it be a separate bit? Most people I know just have a set of these
prettybunnys@piefed.social · 1 pts · 4h
My guess is this is a situation where someone can never find the right size screwdriver
Bluewing@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2h
Robertson head screws are the second most popular fastener people pay me money to remove for them after they screw it up. Torx is third.
Junkers_Klunker@feddit.dk · 4 pts · 6h
Unbrako and hex are great for bolts and machinescrews, on small headed woodscrews I’m a firm believer of the torx masterrace.
Doom@discuss.online · 1 pts · 6h
Agreed
RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 6h
Have you been to a lot of hardware stores with different grades of every of the 257 different types and sizes and thicknesses they carry?
MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 5h
I'll get the torx universal wood and stone ones, thanks.
prettybunnys@piefed.social · 4 pts · 4h
Years ago when working in a boat shop at a “yachting center” aka “dudes with 20’ sailboats they’ve spent more effort repairing than their marriage” and I had a full wall of hardware.
An old school wooden hardware shelf.
My favorite thing ever in my whole life was being Willy wonka with fasteners and my rolly ladder
Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 3h
I was going to say "don't screw up".
xylol@leminal.space · 3 pts · 4h
Or the right size screwdriver and apply force down onto the screw as you turn
Bluewing@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2h
Don't underestimate the efforts some people are willing to go to.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 2h
Hex screws are pretty good, I've never had one strip out
Canonical_Warlock@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 2h
They do but you have to really work at it. I see them all the time as set screws on the fans in commercial ovens. Leave a set screw in an oven for years and that bastard will be so profoundly sized that you can round out even a hex screw.
Leviathan@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 4h
Robertson is the supreme screw!
CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de · 9 pts · 3h
Torx is great until you can’t really see the bolt in question and think you have the right bit but actually it’s slightly small and rounds off the bolt entirely.
It is a good idea in general though.
Bluewing@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 2h
As someone who has spent far more time than I want to think about removing screws and bolts that other people fucked, Robertson is the second most popular fastener to get brought to me with Torx in hot pursuit.
Philips head screws that are messed up come in two types. Soft cheese metal versions and the insidious Japanese style that are just ever sooo slightly different and require their own special driver. And most of you can't tell the difference or even care.
Plus, Y'all buy cheap ass "turn screws" as the British used to call them. When you buy dollar store quality tools you deserve what you get and I don't feel sorry for you.
CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de · 3 pts · 2h
Philips and JIS are interchangeable; it’s Pozi that’s not.
Soup@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1h
So, I wanted to go at the guy for not reading your article but in reading it myself I did find possibly missing something. Like, they talk about them fitting within one another but then show that there are definitely differences. Maybe it’s a case of the same number screwdriver not being equal but +/- 1 number gets you back on track, I dunno.
The article definitely isn’t fully selling me on what they’re saying, though. I own a 1986 Ninja 1000 and have done extensive work to it(engine in half, whole bike in pieces at one point) and there was definitely something up with the bolts. I replaced them all with new button-head and socket-head hex bolts and life was much easier.
Bluewing@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2h
Tell that to guys with Japanese motorcycles. I still get people bringing me engine parts to remove the messed up screws. It costs real money to get me to fixture those parts in my mill and indicate the hole in and then very carefully remove your stupid.
MML@sh.itjust.works · 0 pts · 2h
Roberson = square for anyone normal >.>
DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1h
We all learned what a phillips is, so we can learn what a robertson is.
But, yeah, most of us need a reminder for now.
JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl · 2 pts · 53m
Except apparently Robertson isn't used anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_screw
So it is a square drive, not Robertson.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1h
Robbie, if you're not posh.
kestrel7_7@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1h
It’s not a square, it’s better than a square. One of the sides is ever-so-slightly angled, so the screws stick onto the screwdriver before you get them in place.
Torx is good. Robertson is great.
Soup@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2h
Robertson = Robertson. “Square-head” is not clear enough, same as saying “hex-head” and not being able to say definitively whether you need an allen key or a socket. It’s not that difficult, just learn things.
MML@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 2h
I know the proper name, I also know that Benny didn't finish the 8th grade Smith is going to have no fucking idea what a Robertson is on the job site.
Soup@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1h
Dumbing the world down for Benny is only hurting the both of you. I truly believe that some people are just shockingly stupid and that’s the end of it but you say Roberston enough times, without being an asshole, and even they will figure it out.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1h
And, if you're my dad, you say "the red-handled robbie" or "point the damned flashlight at the screw, genius".
MML@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 30m
I gave up, people I worked with would call both drills and impact drivers "screw guns"
kestrel7_7@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1h
But he knows what a Philips head is? If he was Canadian, he would know Robertson.
HootinNHollerin@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 3h
Torx plus is different than torx in that the tips are thicker which makes the rounding off much harder to do
Bluewing@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2h
But still not impossible. Realize the incompetence of most people.
ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 3h
Because Philips screws were supposed to cam out, to stop overtightening on airplanes.
Maybe we shouldn't use Philips screws for non-aviation purposes.
DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 1h
I've read this was the justification after the fact.
https://build-construct.com/tools-and-equipment/phillips-screws-and-cam-out-what-the-original-patent-actually-says/
kestrel7_7@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1h
The only reason they’re so common is because of Henry Ford. Ford wanted Robertson screws, but Ford also wanted to make his own screws in-house. Robertson wouldn’t license them, Philips would, the rest is history. Robertson screws are much more common than Philips up in Canada (where they’re from).
Texas_Hangover@lemmy.radio · 7 pts · 8h
Finally! Somebody who's not a simp for Robertson.
testaccount789@sh.itjust.works · 16 pts · 6h
Why?
Robertson is clearly superior. You're not going to strip that, and it holds onto the screw better.
TheRealKuni@piefed.social · 14 pts · 5h
Yeah. Robertson plus an impact drill is some of the most fun screwing around one can do that doesn’t involve OP’s mom.
Bluewing@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2h
Wanna bet? Robertson is the second most popular screw people want me to remove. The cause is that they can't be arsed to inspect their tools and replace them when they are worn. It's the classic "I can do just one more".
sudoMakeUser@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 4h
Robertson is great though
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 3 pts · 5h
JamesBoeing737MAX@sopuli.xyz · 6 pts · 4h
At least you didn't leave the toolkit in the rain and almost burn the house down by leaving the soldering iron plugged in for a week.
Yes, I'm still alive.
And yes, I used a Phillips screwdriver in JIS and vice versa multiple times.
brisk@aussie.zone · 5 pts · 4h
That's totally fine actually
JamesBoeing737MAX@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 3h
New; not 40 years old. But I mostly use my relatively new toolkit now, so I'm pretty much fine.
Bluewing@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 2h
Not with the craptastic tools you guys use. Plus the general thumb fingered, hoof handed, club footed skills most of have. And yes, I exclusively use a JIS spec'ed driver for Japanese cross head screws. The fit is far better and I have far few issues removing those screws.
People who don't do that have often ended up paying $100 per screw removal to me to un-fuck their ignorance. I have spent so much money on tools for broken bolt/screw removal that it isn't even funny anymore.
mamg22@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 33m
Also plastic clips on laptops, monitors or any small electronic, pretty much every time I open up something with those clips one of them just snaps apart.
sirico@feddit.uk · 3 pts · 7h
JIS!!!
kbobabob@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 4h
And when some person inevitably uses a phillips on it, it will look like the picture above.
JamesBoeing737MAX@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 4h
Why does this exist. Nobody has the driver for it. I could barely find a full size torx I needed for my car.
Rooster326@programming.dev · 1 pts · 3h
Alternatively everyone has the driver for it...
Given they are eventually putting the furniture together. It's just they never get it apart but frankly that's a problem for future me
libewa@feddit.org · 4 pts · 7h
JIS is only good for being cheap, and only works if you're a precision robot. You lose the autocentering and overtorque protection of Phillips, without gaining any of the advantages of Torx. (Phillips has overtorque protection in the sense that your tool doesn't break, the screw does; which doesn't matter if you don't need to unscrew it.)
im_fine_sandy@nord.pub · 2 pts · 5h
The last time this thread came up there were some convincing comments suggesting that the over torque protection for philips was not an intended feature.
fahfahfahfah@lemmy.billiam.net · 1 pts · 2h
I thought the whole “JIS is different from Phillips” thing was a misunderstanding and JIS is just a type of Phillips or something and it and “regular” Phillips are more or less compatible
Edit I found this: https://www.tekton.com/blog/jis-vs-phillips-screwdriver-tip-geometry-and-fastener-compatibility
libewa@feddit.org · 1 pts · 41m
I have this iFixit guide as my source: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Choosing+the+Right+Screwdriver+Bit/93991#s176809 According to that, the JIS screws have orthogonal inner angles, while the Phillips' are rounded, resulting in the slipping bits. However, some Phillips screwdrivers fill out that space, and thus won't fully go into a JIS screw, and effectively be too small, stripping it.
datavoid@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 2h
Using JIS basically requires buying a special high quality screwdriver set. A few years ago I bought a few Nintendo switch repair kits that came with JIS drivers, and ended up removing the screws with a drill. Since then I bought an ifixit kit, which has heads that are actually the right size - unfortunately it is too late for my poor switch, that is now slightly mangled beneath its case.
Basically what I'm trying to say is fuck JIS.
TigerAce@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 1h
Funny thing is, torx was invented by apple out of greed so no one could open their devices. Turns out it's the best system, as it has the highest force distribution possible. It's the best screw system out there, so apple actually invented something good. Yet still they did it out of greed. After many got torx bits, they added a pin in the middle to make sure everyone's bits didn't fit anymore. This proves apple is, even though they invented the best screw system out there, still a shitty company.
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 11 pts · 1h
Yes, Apple, a company founded in 1976, invented torx in 1967.
You may be thinking of Apple's Pentalobe screws, which are inferior to torx and have no real business existing.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 1h
Americans will do anything to avoid admitting Robertson was earlier, better, and easier to make.
lemming741@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 30m
My experience with Robertson is only electrical stuff made with softer steel. You can really reef on it, but it will hang on to your bit. Nice when you need a second hand, annoying when my 10-in-1 becomes an 8-in-1
Zomg@piefed.world · 2 pts · 5h
Newer drive heads have been invented since then
MehBlah@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 20m
The problem with using phillips is selecting the correct size. If you have the correct size its much harder strip the threads.
Heikki2@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3h
I read that back in the day when mechinised fastening was needed they didn't have a way to track the torque on screws. So rather than have the machine over tighten and break the head off the screw, the Philips head would fail first keeping the screw in place
diaphragmwp@discuss.tchncs.de · 1 pts · 3h
Why are they called after the brand of a kitchen blender, anyway? I call it a "plus head"
5in1k@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 4h
I fucking hate torx. The bits snap too often because they don’t cam out. Get some arm strength and keep your bit straight and phillips works great
DarkSurferZA@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 4h
Torx drivers are cheap and rubbish, but ooh boy, Philips is the worst.
CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de · 3 pts · 3h
Check out the Toque Test Channel on Torx drivers. The companies have different patterns for their heads with different advantages and disadvantages.
Philips is bad. Pozi-Drive screw with Philips head is awful.
DarkSurferZA@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2h
Torx is undoubtedly a better screw head, but I have so many drivers, especially the smaller ones, that have snapped heads. It's a manufacturing issue with the driver, not the screw head.
But I guess my comment still stands, you can complain about torx, but you absolutely can't compare it to how shit Philips is (including every variation and adaptation).
Malyca@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 22m
I try so hard not to overtighten them but always fail
FE80@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3h
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives