There is a reason however that in such cases the law differentiates between murder and accessory to murder. The latter carries less severe penalties. They are simply not the same thing and one is objectively worse than the other.
Only in the most broad sense, i.e. control of the government. What they want to do with that power is very very different (especially if you are nonwhite, LGBT, or a woman).
I'm not dismissing those things because that's the only area of debate in the United States. But the Democrats and the Republicans don't support universal healthcare, they don't support workers rights, they support corporations right to pillage the environment, they support the genocide in Palestine and broadly they support American Hegemony abroad. The only thing they disagree on is the gender, skin color, and sexuality of the people who can't get healthcare or parental leave.
Between the ACA, Medicare expansions, pre-existing condition coverage requirements, VA funding, and medication price reduction, Democrats have ensured that tens of millions of Americans have healthcare. Republicans have done their best to strip this away.
Democrat states usually do not have "right to work" laws that weaken union membership.
Democrats heavily pushed for a move away from fossil fuels, subsidized the expansion of electric car use, increased protected lands, and strengthened environmental laws. Republicans have undone most of this.
Democratic support of Israel is rapidly waning under public pressure. Republicans have not weakened their stance an inch.
Democrats funded and supported international aid across the world to generate soft power. Republicans have pulled this back and replaced it with threats and military force.
Dems are not perfect, but they are closer to your ideal by an immense amount.
I think the difference between us is that I think the Democrats can at best accomplish half measures that don't fix the fundamental structure of the system. The ACA hands more power and money to insurance companies, it doesn't fix the fundamental problem. The Democrats support of Israel is "waning" but that hasn't really altered anything on the ground or even stopped the money from flowing.
Republicans have pulled this back and replaced it with threats and military force.
You're acting like Obama didn't endorse more drone strikes than any president in history.
Like sure they are "technically" better but not in any of the ways that matter.
I agree, but also don't think we should be so devoted as to defend them for being the only ones who can help us and having them watch and do nothing. They're more concerned with the people running on doing more. Is that an Ally or just the weaker of two enemies?
We should absolutely push the Democrats to do better and support DSA and other farther left candidates. Short term though, they are the best chance to wrest control of the government back from the MAGA fascists.
They are the best chance insofar as we can change the party. FDR enacted many of his policies because the alternative was a mass uprising leading to murder of the owner class/scabs and the visuals of the societal abandonment of our elderly was dumping gasoline on the fire.
Well vote for progressives in the fuckin primaries and pull the fuckin party left because it's literally the only fuckin option that isn't republicans winning. Y'all can refuse to grasp the political reality all you want, but it doesn't change it.
It's not refusing to grasp anything to talk about how our options are falling to hell or floating for a while. You're preaching to the choir about how to change it and if you haven't noticed: That is what's happening. We are entitled to bitch in the meantime, especially about areas where corporate and consultant interests superseded people's own best interests due to record levels of spending and nonstop concern trolling (eg: Cori Bush, Jamaal Bowman, Oliver Larkin, Charles Booker, etc). We also don't need permission from anyone to do so, thanks for your concern.
Just as both of those cops couldn't be left on the street, the democrat party of today can't be same democrat party of tomorrow. We're going to make it better or we're not going to have a country just like Minneapolis didn't have police station after kicking those murder charges down the road.
Just let people transfer their vote if their first preference doesn't win. Then the unrepresented get suffrage, and the democrats get more votes.
Ask yourself why democrats are saying no to these free votes. Maybe the DNC wants us fighting as well if they dont implement this common sense electoral reform in the blue states they control?
Of the states that have adopted election reform, nearly all are Democratic run (Alaska being an exception but they are weird). Meanwhile Republicans have actively passed laws to disenfranchise as many people as possible.
I'd certainly be interested in historical examples of fascist propaganda meant specifically to divide the opposition (rather than simply gain more supporters).
I mean, the historic Nazis basically presented themselves to the German political establishment as an anti-communist deal with the devil, and it worked well enough for them to take over Germany. Does that count?
I'd say not really. This deal with the devil tactic was ultimately about getting the German political establishment to support them in return for breaking communist skulls, so it falls pretty cleanly under "simply getting more supporters." What would count would be the Nazis trying to split people who oppose them from other people who oppose them (so social democrats from liberals, communists from social democrats, etc) so that the size of the opposition isn't changed but it's directed less effectively. What you're referring to is just selling oneself to potential supporters, which any political party/movement must do anyway.
Propaganda can have multiple purposes. It also drove a wedge between the far left and the center left. The same goes for the Nazis attacking LGBT people (sound familiar)?
It also drove a wedge between the far left and the center left.
No it didn't. The people the Nazis were making deals with were squarely on the right of the German political spectrum. We're talking monarchists, rightwing nationalists and the like. A good proxy for this would be seeing which parties voted for the Enabling Act of 1933, and as you'll notice immediately if you're familiar with German politics from this period they're all rightwing. Hell, most of them weren't even republican. The center left here was the SPD, and they all (the ones that made it to the Reichstag anyway) voted no, while the communists were too busy suffering state repression. Importantly, the wedge that was driven between these two parties was driven by themselves.
Are you fuckin stupid or deliberately obtuse. Propaganda divided the populace to the point the average German didn't care their Jewish neighbors were being systematically executed. But at this point it's apparent you're deliberately engaging in bad faith so go fuck yourself.
This actually was a bit of a process. After Hoover, America was a serious shithole. A Hooverville was a shanty town. We call them homeless encampments now. It took Roosevelt's new deal to pull us out with a lot of national programs.
Then WW2 happened and we were super in debt, and we needed to get really organized to develop a robust union-supported middle class, so that our GDP outpaced our debt + interest + spending.
And the owner class took all that personally. Before the war, the industrialists organized a propaganda campaign to instill capitalist values in the US (and no small amount of fascism). They weren't yet good at it but got better with time.
And once big industries were unionized and regulated, Lewis F. Powell Jr. wrote his notorious memorandum outlining the plan to recapture the government, especially the courts, in order to create a pro-commercial state, e.g. one in which unions weren't welcome, regulations weren't enforced, and the working class knew their place.
And the owner class has been following that agenda since. Of course, it is turning the US back into a shithole on the verge of fiscal collapse, but they don't care. Nor do they listen to the economics experts that point out that liberal democratic societies end up far richer, including their owner class. They think as Trump does, that they're the experts on everything, and they surround themselves with sycophants who don't disagree with them or challenge their ideas.
In the 1970s, but especially after Reagan, lobbyists and special interest groups gained access to elected officials, and got really clever in all the ways that they can bribe them. Politician went from being a decent career into a gateway into the owner class, and so people ran for office not to do things (e.g. to create change) but to be adjacent to power. Nowadays, money is super entrenched. Campaign contributions are dwarfed by PAC money which is dwarved by Superpacs, and then there's the promise of post-career cushy high-paying jobs... as lobbyists.
(Apparently it's super humiliating. Once you're in office, if you want to keep your campaign sponsors happy -- and willing to keep you in office -- you have to pass what they say. They give you the bills prewritten and expect them to be passed verbatim. Fail, and that sweet high-paying job you were promised after your political career is gone. So elected officials beholden to large sponsors are forced to be absolutely subservient. It explains why it's so natural for Republicans to abdicate all responsibility to Trump, and why establishment Democrats are incredibly milquetoast, and make every excuse not to pass public-serving legislation. It also explains why establishment Democrats are fighting progressive and DSA factions more fiercely than they fight Republicans, even though the GOP is actively trying to unmake the two-party system and arrest the Dems as political enemies as soon as they get the chance.)
Progressives and DSA are gaining traction specifically because the establishment Democrats are just weak Republicans, and many of those who'd vote for them would rather vote for the guy with the fancier suit and the better memes. Progressives and DSA are coming into office with an actual platform beyond we're better than the Republicans and are trying to actually pass public-serving policy.
Trump, in the meantime, has a knack for inviting people to be their worst selves. He attracts voters who just want to vote based on vibes, rather than a platform and their own best interests. Trump also is openly racist in contrast to the dog-whistle racist Republican party of 2015. White racist Americans found refreshing. He's only saying what we all are thinking. Since then, the Republican party now has a purity test, that either you're 100% MAGA devout, or you're a RINO. And already we're starting to see the MAGA movement start to cut into their own ranks, excluding those who are not quite perfect.
It is a reductive simplification, to the point of uselessness. Look up the actual legislation that gets passed and gets voted on, who in what parties votes for what. But you're not here to engage in good faith, you're here to both sides so republicans win the midterms.
Can't you tell us what the good legislation they're passing is? Since you like posting here so much. You should have a notepad full of urls ready to go.
The fact that you dont know yourself shows how little you actually care or pay attention to politics, AND how little you understand how it works - they can't pass any legislation while idiots like you ensure the Republicans maintain control.
Look you're either down to use your allotment of violence this November to fight back within the system, or you're mad enough to fight The System, and build anew.
::: spoiler super secret option
Both, both is also good.
:::
Anything else makes you a Republican Asset. Fascism is already here, and I don't believe you can vote your way out, but there is value in getting the data to prove it.
There is value in giving The Democratic Party enough rope to hang themselves with. To prove to both yourself and others that even with more power The Democratic Party will still only fight with strongly worded letters.
There is also value in pumping up the DSA faction inside the party, and helping them takeover.
There is no value in staying home, and it's too late this election to build a Third Party Movement. So your options are either get behind Blue, or get ready to get bloody. Otherwise you're just a whining Republican Asset.
This is literally the only path forward and everyone who isn't actively doing that is helping elect Republicans. But I'm pretty sure this is one of those subs that ban you if you try to say dems aren't as bad as republicans. World is filled with fuckass mods that ban when their feefees get hurt, make fuckin reddit mods look reasonable and deliberate half the time.
But 2024 taught me that Americans do not care. They knew who Trump was. They saw how he is president. They heard what he said he wanted to do once in office. They knew about the Project 2025 Mandate for Leadership and what its plan was. And the majority of voters couldn't be bothered to vote against him.
On the Democratic side, I get the grievances, except that by not voting for the AIPAC lady, we're now watching as Israel plans to turn Gaza into a billionaire resort and just massacre the entire region. The Republicans don't have a conscience to be bargained with, while the Democrats have opinions that can evolve.
The price of eggs was an excuse. Americans voted based on vibes and racism. Not specific racism though they're being fed fear of brown immigrants, but permission to be racist. And now genocide of everyone not MAGA is in the Overton window.
Maybe all of the Republican election tampering and voter suppression shenanigans will fail to reduce the alleged blue tsunami to a blue trickle, and maybe the after-election shenanigans won't work, but that doesn't mean the Democrats are going to get full control of Congress and the Presidency in 2028. And if they do, that doesn't mean Democrats are actually going to sufficiently overhaul SCOTUS, and then ironclad elections from suppression, tampering, gerrymandering, voter caging and so on. And these things need to be done before any movement towards rebuilding regulatory institutions, soft power departments like USAID, reforming DHS or any of the other things that really need to be done.
And if all this isn't done in time, then American voters will get impatient, and follow their brainwashing to vote in oligarch puppets again. And this time the US will become a one-party state, and might even see its constitution dismantled.
So, I will vote. I think everyone absolutely needs to vote as if their lives and the lives of everyone they know depends on it. But I thought the same thing in 2024, and the constituency of the United States betrayed me. Seriously, eventually I'm going to end up on ICE's hit list, and they'll come for me. After that, they'll come for everyone else.
SCOTUS has locked federal political power in favor of MAGA. It's entirely captured. It has the capacity to nullify any or all parts of the Constitution of the United States, if they decide to do so. Expect to see carveouts of the 13th, 14th, 15th and 19th amendments just the way they scalloped the 4th and 5th. We have one chance to stop them. One.
So I'm not going to be dishonest about our actual chances. I still think everyone needs to vote. I also think Americans need to organize twelve million of us behind a single manifesto, so that when we general strike or occupy Washington, we have clear and established demands, and there is clearly nothing they can do about it and stay in power.
But I don't think Americans are up to the task, even if they are skipping meals and living off ramen. Even if their family is abducted and disappeared by ICE. Even if they're choking on data center fumes. Moreover because they still believe they have to check the R to prove they're not effeminate or communist.
I'll do my diligent duty. Heck I'm looking for my place in the organized resistance. But my faith in the people of the United States is gone. I'm not going to lie about that to purport hope or optimism.
I think that people are mostly politically ignorant and for whatever reason, do not take the time to educate themselves on the deeper working of our political system. Most people rely on mainstream news or their twitter feed or podcasts to stay informed about what is going on. This is why messaging is so important.
In the 2024 election, Trump talked about all the horrible things he wanted to do, but he framed it from the position of, "these terrible things will help you". Now to the politically aware folks like the kind that comment on political threads, we knew this was a lie. But we are the types of people to do research into crime statistics and know that immigrants contribute a minisicule amount of crime in the USA.
Regardless of how we wish people were more politcally knowledgeable, they aren't, so it is important for the oppositional party to do that kind of informing. The Dem party should have been out there calling the Repubs ridiculous and giga-racist. Kamala Harris should have had a strong message of protecting our immigrant neighbors against racist dog whistles and highlighting the good they do. Instead, the Democratic party ran on strengthening the border and cracking down on immigrant crime.
When the politically ignorant voter looked at these two candidates, they saw one who said, "immigrants are a problem and I'm gonna get rid of them all" while the other said, "immigrants are a problem and I'm gonna get rid of some". They heard Kamala Harris say she wants to spend more money building the border wall when only a few years ago, the Democratic party was calling the border wall racist and bad. The common voter saw the decision between Coke and Diet Coke, no matter how innaccurate that comparison was because the Democratic party advertised themselves as Diet Coke.
I really wish the common person would do a little more research into politics, but it isn't really surprising that they often sit out elections when the Democrats keep advertising themselves as Republican-lite. So while I agree that the constituency has some blame in the current atate of affairs, I think the Democratic leadership bears far more of the blame. They know what is popular and what would help them win, they just don't want to win with progressive policies that won't personally enrich them. This is why I think to fix our current state of affairs, most of our focus should be on the Dem leadership that are passively observing our descent to hell.
Most people rely on mainstream news or their twitter feed or podcasts to stay informed about what is going on.
And this is why I fear for Hasan Piker's safety. Traditional media is smearing him so badly that even C-Span hosts are saying shit like, "Hasan Piker has made many anti-Semitic statements" which is patently untrue.
I think the Democratic leadership bears far more of the blame. They know what is popular and what would help them win, they just don’t want to win with progressive policies that won’t personally enrich them.
I think a lot of this is also coming from the political consultant class. These people make far to much money on elections and it's not in their personal financial interests to embrace grass roots efforts to get politicians elected. They want big donors so they can make big ad buys(and get a commission).
But the pretense of democracy is that people will do their diligent research as part of their civic duty. Candidates should be entirely about platforms. Voting should entirely be about personal best interests. A high rate of political ignorance among the constituency is a symptom of a failing democracy already.
To be fair, US democracy was flawed from the beginning, partly because our framers didn't know fully what they were doing (Hamilton made some broad presumptions in the Federalist Papers,) and partly because the system was gamed from the beginning to be ruled by the petit bourgeoisie, because they feared rule by the common (uneducated) mob. Also, since they wanted to keep their slaves, they failed to uphold the enlightenment value that everyone is equal under law.
So we kinda got a bunk system to begin with.
The natural thing to do, then, would be to instill civic duty into the modern public education system. Teach kids critical thinking. Instill in them a sense of duty to be a check on government. Teach them to think about what is in their personal best interest, and to vote accordingly. And as we learn about manipulative tricks by the Republicans (e.g. single issue voting, racism campaigning) teach kids to recognize those, and to know someone's trying to play them for a fool.
We totally didn't do that. From the beginning, we taught obedience to authority.
Now, it turns out there was one time we did start teaching critical thinking. We beefed up the liberal arts taught in schools. We were really eager to raise kids who were STEM savvy, who could philosophize, who were willing to ask difficult questions. We did it once, and it was triggered by a singular event:
Sputnik.
Since then, we not only went right back to teaching obedience. Then we went to teaching to the test, as part of Republican effort to dismantle public education entirely. Between that and our range of fundamentalist Christian traditions through the south and the red states, we essentially set up our citizens to be Trump's instant army. In 2015 and 2016, we watched as Trump took the entire Republican base away from all the other candidates, because he dared to be openly racist.
Along with education, we also need our working class to have time and energy to engage civically. This means we need to allow them to afford to live while working them less. The three-day weekend and the 32-hour work week would be a start. (It would also likely increase productivity.) As an aside, our working class also need time and energy to parent, and since they don't get it, our kids suffer. As a gen-x latchkey kid, I didn't have parents at home, and yet our material standard of living wasn't any better.
But again, we're not doing that.
I suppose the survivors trying to start a new civilization can try sortition (that is election by lottery of all the qualified population). In that case they divide up duties so finely that no-one has too great an amount of power. And then they create a system of checks to make sure incompetent officials are out-voted until they can be replaced. That wouldn't mean tyrants would get into office, but our current system invites professional politicians, who dress fancy and speak with confidence, but can assert one set of positions while doing what their benefactors order them to do.
IMO democrats aren't really "left." They're more like "were going to use the federal gov to protect corporations" and then the GOP is more like "were going to use the state and local governments to protect corporations"
And then every November, Americans vote to protect corporations.
That's old news. Now Democrats are we're going to use the federal government to (mostly) pass protectionist legislation. and the GOP is like We're going to dismantle democracy, turn the US into a single-party autocracy and then no-one's vote will matter anymore.
Once they do that, the Democrats will become enemies of the state and will be arrested. But then, the executive will find that Congress is entirely useless. It'll be easy to get them to pass an enabling act after which elected officials don't really need to go to work.
By then, though, the country is going to be bankrupt, and will have no friends. If there's a half-functional military left, the US might try to annex Canada or Mexico.
I've been saying similar things for a long time now. Repulicrats and Demicrans are two sides of the same coin. Bush signed in the patriot act. I got all excited to make a change and voted for Obama. Then he signs in the expansion of the patriot act and carpet bombs the shit out of Syria.
BoTh SiDeS eLeCtIoN cOmInG. There's always an election coming. Every two years. When do you think it's appropriate to discuss the corporate ownership of our political parties?
Do we have a six month period in between elections or something?
Meanwhile, bOtH sIdEs made a BILLION dollars in the last election (that we know of), and, as usual, the winner ignored their own platform (as BoTh SiDeS routinely do). Billionaires shared the victory stage with Trump, clapping and smiling. They don't go away when the Democrats win.
We spent it mostly on tax breaks for the rich. We have billionaires with record levels of wealth and even had the first ever trillionaire to show for it.
Consider that a lot of this is coming from campaign consultants who eschew the idea of grass roots funded lean campaigns that don't waste money on TV ad buys(and more consultants).
Also, a lot of this is coming straight from AIPAC. Every single Democrat politician that is engaging in this character assassination spree is getting money from AIPAC.
And, since the lefty candidates tend to communicate to their base via "non traditional" means, traditional media sees them as a threat too.
The whole manufactured controversy is just Israel's talking points. "Antisemitism" this and "no genocide" that - these aren't real points and it's why AIPAC incumbents are being singled out. The situation has become overly apparent that the DNC is hamstrung by foreign interests to be ineffective.
It's the same interests as the "natives" ruling class. It's not about helping Israel or the USA, it's about money, and these interests are international. The ruling class of the USA is the same ruling class of Earth, the USA is the capital (formerly UK), and Israel is as enslaved to them as the USA, it's not the "controller".
This is the time of the year when accounts with a thousand post and ten comments start trying to depress the vote for the only party that has a chance to beat the republicans.
There’s a thousand criticisms of US politics I agree with, that make sense; but the one thing that has never made sense to me is why the Republican Party exists.
It’s a horrendous monster with no visible redeeming values. The Democrats can live off “We will fight the monster!” and be opportunistic scumbags, but no explanation given for why that monster exists.
As long as even some of the democrats build up a platform of fighting that monster, and have to pretend to do it, then it’s better than those monsters actually being in charge. I’m not a fan of handwaving the “hard fact” that group still continues to exist as a pure enemy of American success through today’s age, and it turns almost anything else into a lesser evil.
Mostly gerrymandering/voter suppression/corruption (they’re all the same thing, to me). The Republicans are always accusing Democrats of influencing elections, because they know how easy it is.
You can look it up yourself pretty easily: there are about 1.5x as many people who reliably vote Democratic as there are people who reliably vote Republican. The only reason Republicans ever win anything is because of baldfaced voter suppression.
The part that makes even less sense is that majority of Americans support that monster party, even after it got significantly more monstrous (maggot movement)
This is a real and legitimate threat. Dismissing it outright does just as much harm as you perceive the “both sides” argument you’re railing against. The only time it’s a legitimate problem is when it’s used to dissuade voters from voting. It still needs to be discussed so hopefully it can be fixed.
If you want nuance, I can give it to you. I've successfully formed a union that spans across 3 states, including Texas. It's one of the largest tech unions in North America. We got it through political messaging. Generally I consider anyone that can successfully get people to join a union for political reasons a pretty informed and nuanced person. But what do I know.
I'm confused as to which parts of the left it's supposed to split. The communists and the democratic socialists? The anarchists and the worker democracy folks? The DSA from independents like Sanders?
I feel like the message of the post is more so about uniting as the left flank against pro-corporate politicians like most of the democrats and republicans.
The goal of the post is to pit the far left against he moderate left so that either one side stays home, or the other side votes with the right.
This is fucking stupid. Eliminating MAGA has to be job #1, nothing else happens until that does. MAGA needs to lose in 2028 by margins unheard of in modern elections. like 75-80% margins. Failing that, they'll just come back with more dirty tricks...
I practice the "Vote left in EVERY election" I will always vote for the furthest left candidate no matter what. In the primary, this means voting for the DemSoc or the very liberal... But in the General it sometimes mean voting for the moderate just base don them not being MAGA...
The "far left" principles align with most normal people. When was the last time Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer represented your interests.
So, OPs post isn't trying to split the party... The actions of corporate dems ARE splitting the party. Just look at "left leaning" media coverage on Mandami, El-Sayed and Angie Nixon. They are spouting the same things you are hearing on Fox News..... Yet, let's blame OP for the "split" and not the people in charge whose fault it is. I think they call that Stockholm Syndrome.
Except that "normal people" aren't the ones voting.
America is a center-left country.. Like it or not, the far-left policies don't resonate with more than half of the idiots in this country.. I agree with you. Thinking people embrace them...but accusing Americans of being "Thinking people" is kind of a laugh..
So vote as far left as you can in every election. That's how you drag the country to the left. It's not going to be an overnight fix, it's taken 250 years to get this fucked up, it's going to take at least 2-3 generations of hard work to get it back.
But we START be eliminating MAGA from the american consciousness, and the only way we do that is by defeating them so soundly the money dries up because corporate america views them as a lost cause. That is a vital first step and nothing else works until they're gone.
You are starting with several false assumptions. A couple of which: (1) the center-left politicians actually want to eliminate maga and (2) progressive candidates are to the left of the American populace. Bout assumptions are incorrect. I'm not going to convince you regarding either. But, the bottom line is, The only way to eliminate maga and maga-lite influence in us politics is to support politicians that focus on affordability issues and congressional fiance reform. That is a platform farmers in the Midwest, laborers on the coast, and even the populace of Texas can get behind. Watering down a message to appeal to a central base ends up pissing off everybody except for the most milquetoast of electorate. That's the reason Trump is won twice and also almost won in 2020.
Just because the people in your circle are all hard-left, doesn't mean the country is. We're a 52-48 (barely) liberal leaning country... so yes, most progressive candidates are to the left of the average american... Slightly more conservative candidates are to the right of the average american... Most fall somewhere in the center.
If you want to move the country to the left, convincing the left-moderates isn't the hard part... It's convincing the center-left moderates to come over... the ones who believe the government does spend too much, but also who believe we do need to maintain a strong military and use it wisely...
I vote for any candidate that puts education first in a very real way. The only way we dig ourselves out of the hole we're in is restoring the education cuts that started with Ronald Regan in the 80's... The end result of that being generations of people who aren't capable of critical thought in any real way...
I'm in a solid red state. I believe the "average American" is further left than you do. Centrism is a lie that has been shoved down our throats by every media outlet for most of my adult life. For the first time in my lifetime, most of us have access to media that isn't controlled by the ruling capitalists. The center left alignment will continue to swing further left so long as this is the case. I know that 30% of the populace would vote right regardless.... But that 40% will be responsive to progressive messages, which are frankly working class messages, when most of them are in the working class these days.
Edit: btw, i respect your perspective, which was close to mine not long ago
You people always talk like the Dems are a mono-party that votes in lockstep like the Republicans when they're the big tent party consisting of everyone from MAGA adjacent to as close to socialist as the US can get, and it's really transparent what you're trying to do. If both sides were the same and voting didn't matter republicans wouldn't be trying so hard to prevent people from voting but y'all are too fuckin oblivious to see how obvious that is.
What the fuck are you talking about? Nobody mentioned a both sides argument. Stop creating strawmen. Everybody should vote. And if the left wants to win, the DNC need to abandon their corporate first mentality or they will be left in the dust of history.
If the left wants to win they need to vote in the fucking primaries and prevent republicans from winning the generals, which means voting for democrats. Everything else gets republicans elected.
you either don't believe that the liberal democratic "left" constantly attacks the real left because it endangers the status quo, or you think the real left should ignore it and still team up with them even as they do everything to weaken them.
if the first is the case, i believe you should do more research and i can post some links.
if the second, i think that's a dumb strategy and never really worked. it's well known that liberals always team up with the fascists in the end to protect the status quo.
This discussion is about "splitting the left," and voting is the primary way in which that manifests. Of course we were talking about voting (and in particular, how posts like this discourage it), even if the particular word wasn't used yet.
The parent comment asserted without evidence that "posts like this are designed to split the left." Then Štěpán responded by doubting that the unity the parent comment implied exists in the first place. This is all a dispute of facts; actions can then be taken based on those facts but so far you're assuming an argument "don't vote for the Democrats" that nobody made. Or, in other words, there are conclusions you can make from "the centrists actually hate us and everything we stand for" other than "don't vote in the election."
The second is literally the only way party reform has occurred historically. If you think change can happen another way you're delusional. You're literally declaring that it has to be full tilt republican fascism or actual revolution because both of those are infinitely more likely than a third party ever having power. So are you just an accelerationist? You working for republicans? Are you even American? You a tankie? What's your goal here, because stopping the rise of fascism sure doesn't seem to rate for you.
You are on the wrong side of this issue. Stop blaming everybody else and look at your own assumptions and beliefs. You're acting more like a controlled op than the people you're responding to.
Oh I fully believe it's happening, but I think it's a problem that is amplified by the right to suppress liberal turnout...and it works. Look at 2024. It fucking worked.
And it's going to happen again in 2028 if we don't knock it the fuck off.
Step 1 has to be the elimination of MAGA...
Step 2 through 10 involve actually fixing the system. But none of it will happen if step 1 isn't completed FIRST.
I just don't feel confident that it was the propaganda of the right suppressing liberal interest, and not the authentic apathy of people not finding democracy in the democratic party.
Step 1 has to be the elimination of MAGA…
I also don't feel confident the current for of the democratic party is equipped for this, and I think not pushing them to do better is how we went from Biden to Trump 2.
Push them to do better by voting in the primaries... but don't give up and stay home when the candidate you like doesn't win the primary. Fucking vote.
I actually liked Harris. She was smart, skilled, and experienced. But she had a vagina so 7 million Joe Biden voters refused to show up.. (I know that's only part of the reason, but I also know that misogyny is just as prevalent in the left as it is in the right.
I vote down ballot every election, I am not who you need to convince. I am explaining to you that, as we saw in 24, when people don't feel heard they don't show up. You can take another stab at corporate dems trying to vote shame enough people into showing up, or you can learn from the past and realize shame doesn't motivate votes.
I'm at the point that I might be the one to stop showing up.. I mean, if people are so focused on their pet project that they have stopped giving a shit about stopping the overarching evil, then maybe it's time to let the evil win.
Maybe you could ride this emotion into a shred of empathy and imagine yourself being a Palestinian who had 20+ family members killed under Biden, watched the DNC attendees cover their ears when faced with the government they support, watched your close friends tear gassed and arrested for begging your school to stop giving money to the slaughter of your family; then after no primary, no voice at the DNC, and a cheered promise of the most lethal military in the world, you're insulted for having a "pet project" that is over shadowed by the 'real' evil.
America is evil when democrats are in power too, and if you want to throw a tantrum instead of be productive, I can't stop you. But maybe you should realize there are people that have been at this fight longer than we've been alive and are trying more than just voting.
30% of the voters are far-right... That's pretty much established. 30% are far-left. Like it or not, the middle 40% are the ones who actually make the decisions, and I think those are the ones they're trying to appeal to... Almost every election moves based on the people who are willing to look at both sides and make a decision.
I always assume a politician's message is going to change depending on what news channel they're on, because they're talking to a different group of people. You get on Fox news talking to fox-news-troglodytes and start spouting DSA rhetoric you're going to get ignored, and it's a waste of time.
Need the big money out of politics, but not enough reps that would vote for that get elected, and can't get ranked choice and other things that help, We The People, and not the wealthy owners.
Absolutley true. Yet, you still need to vote to have any say in what's happening. Don't let this stop you and don't be discouraged in criticizing either. Both are very important democratic freedoms. Voting does more than protesting. Questioning and researching make your vote wiser. Dissent defies these freedoms in many ways.
Our government is like a company with two different managers. One manager is a wonderful boss, and everybody loves them, and wants to work for them. The other manager is a raging asshole, and everybody despises him, and nobody wants to work for him.
In reality, nobody works for either manager, they work for the corporation, and the managers are just there to do the corporations bidding, and advance the corporation's agenda. They might approach it differently, but ultimately they are both responsible for meeting the corporation's agenda.
That's the Dems vs MAGAs. They might have totally different approaches, but ultimately, they are there to serve the demands of the Sociopathic Oligarchs, and our job is to pay for it.
Nobody is going to read all your propaganda bullshit, next time just say BOTH SIDES SAME DURP!! Same message, fewer words, makes sure MAGA stays in power just like you want.
Democrats could always replace First-past-the-post voting in the blue states they control. Then the people could run alongside the democrats with no spoiler effect.
But then democrats would have to actually compete, and capitalists hate competition.
Oh look a dip who can’t read and is putting words in peoples mouths. Stop posting your pathetic cuck thoughts online. The world would be a better place.
To put it in a way YOU might understand: less of your thoughts posted online would mean more Mamdani’s elected.
You write what you want to write. I’ll keep calling you a pedo loving cuck until you stop doing that. A downvote from the likes of y’all is a W for me.
This is like someone saying they'll never support the NE patriots because they don't like Tom Brady...
It made sense when Brady was leading the team, but he's gone for a while now.
So if you keep talking about the Brady years like it's today, people are gonna assume you're so clueless, you think he's still the NE QB.
But for the love of whatever you give a shit about:
Stop calling the neoliberals "Democrats"
They're a minority of politicians with no control over the party currently. Pretending they're the better, just depresses dem.tuenoit and increases the neoliberal's odds of taking back the party
Do you believe Chuck Schumer or Hakeem Jeffries have no power over the Dem party? Or do you think they are not neoliberals?
You would be right if you claimed that most of the Democrat voter base is not neoliberal, but neoliberals definitely make up a majority of the Democratic elected officials in power. As a recent example, three neoliberal zionist Dems were appointed to the Foregin Affairs Committee. They will have a lot of influence on how the US conducts overseas policy.
These kinds of decisons made by the Democrat party are what depresses voter turnout. The neoliberal politicians who are taking advice from neoliberal consultants like Third Way or the Center for American Progress are dragging down the country because they would rather lose to the fascists than win with the progressives. They would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven.
Do you believe Chuck Schumer or Hakeem Jeffries have no power over the Dem party?
What do you think their power was?
For the last decade it was the DNC's control over the "victory fund", which the current DNC leader already drained and gave back to state parties.
Before that, if you didn't do what they wanted, they'd bankrupt your whole state party and let Republicans have it
Even if they regain control of the DNC, they won't have that war chest anymore.
This is all incredibly basic and happened over a year ago....
What's your excuse for not knowing any of that?
And I didn't read past that quoted line, because if you don't understand how that works, everything else is going to be wrong. Because you fundamentally don't understand any of the context.
How do you think these committee members are picked? Why is it a big news story that Hakeem Jeffries was in private meetings with Jared Kushner? When the media asks for the general strategy of the Democrat party, who gets interviewed as the face of the partty?
And if you are talking about the DNC spending all it's money funding incumbents against primary challengers, yeah, I think it's a problem that the DNC is going into the midterms $2 million in debt. The Establishment Dems should have let the primaries run their course instead of trying to put their thumb on the scale to get their preferred candidates through the primaries.
When the common person who is not very politically active looks into their voting options, they look to mainstream news. They listen to Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries because they are the Minority Leader and Caucus Leader. They listen to Ezra Klein's podcast because Third Way is institutionally respected as representing the modern Democratic party. They read Neera Tanden's tweets because the Center for American Progress is the main think tank of the Democrat party. The common person is told over and over that the Democrats are for neoliberal policies and they believe it because the Dem politicians in the highest positions of power and prominence are neoliberal.
Regular people are so hungry for progressive action that something as basic as a nyc mayor fixing potholes is seen as newsworthy. When they are faced with a barrage of neoliberal talking points from the leaders and consultants of the oppositional party, they get depressed. That is the leaders of the Democratic party flexing their power to punish their voter base for believing that better things are possible. That's how you get stupid shit like "Democrats for Mike Rogers" or two Dems being the key votes to pass GOP bills last week. The leaders of the Democrat party are spending all their time trying to foment anger against their left flank instead of channeling the already existing anger against the Republican party.
Fucks there has gotten more and more unhinged ever since that Nazi he was supporting turned out to also be a rapist. You're not gonna get any valuable discourse from him. Every single comment is just blaming democrats for everything regardless of reality. But then it looks kind of like you do too so I'm not sure why y'all are disagreeing. Here are the options in plain words for both of you. Primary establishment Dems with progressives which requires voting in the primaries, then you prevent Republicans from winning generals by electing the democrats. In like the two fucking counties in the entire country where third parties are actually viable, go ham. Otherwise you're getting republicans elected. And republicans are worse than democrats, full stop. Anyone who doesn't agree with that isn't a serious person and is working for republicans.
I agree that Republicans are worse than Democrats and I also agree that it is important to get progressive Democrats into power. I just wish the Dems in power would also hold these opinions.
My frustrations with the current Dem leadership is that they are following the advice of influential political analyst James Carville to "roll over and play dead" when it comes to opposing the Republicans, but are fighting tooth and nail when it comes to opposing progressive candidates. It really feels like the Dem leadership is not serious and is working with the Republicans.
I grew up in a family full of Democrats and I had no awareness of the “democrat party” vs. “democratic party” discourse until earlier this year. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think it’s the conservative shibboleth you’re acting like it is.
I'll never support MAGA because I didn't like Reagan and he's been gone a while before the pedophile took it over and made it the super circus it is today. I hate the pedophile way more.
The left have a job in all this too, and it is to sit back and let it all happen. Occasionally be dismissive of the voting process and attack liberals that might otherwise agree with you, without educating them first.
If you're for some reason not cool with losing, you should probably begin working to reform your party into something that's actually helpful and effective.
183 Comments
Lasherz12@lemmy.world · 56 pts · 2d
Sounds about right.
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 25 pts · 2d
Even in this example, there is one side that is obviously far far worse than the other.
Mulligrubs@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 2d
Not really.
A guy standing in a room watching a rape or murder is also irredeemable scum.
A_norny_mousse@piefed.zip · 15 pts · 2d
Less bad than the one committing it. Maybe not "far far" but still.
Steve@startrek.website · 3 pts · 1d
I can and will argue that its just as bad. Kinda like pointing and laughing at shipwreck survivors before you leave them to drown.
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1d
There is a reason however that in such cases the law differentiates between murder and accessory to murder. The latter carries less severe penalties. They are simply not the same thing and one is objectively worse than the other.
urthoughtsrbad@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 1d
Law means less than nothing to morality.
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
Morals are relative. The law is not (at least ideally).
urthoughtsrbad@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 1d
My point was that what the laws says is right or wrong should have no bearing on what actually is right or wrong.
Where I am from, it was illegal for blacks to drink from certain fountains. The law is always flawed, even if we don’t see it as such today.
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 3h
Many argued it was immoral for black people and white people to drink from the same fountains too. That's the problem with using morals as a standard.
thethrilloftime69@feddit.online · 5 pts · 1d
I don't think we should really be heralding the "better" side as the ones that are going to save us. Remember their goals are ultimately the same.
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 23h
Only in the most broad sense, i.e. control of the government. What they want to do with that power is very very different (especially if you are nonwhite, LGBT, or a woman).
thethrilloftime69@feddit.online · 1 pts · 23h
I'm not dismissing those things because that's the only area of debate in the United States. But the Democrats and the Republicans don't support universal healthcare, they don't support workers rights, they support corporations right to pillage the environment, they support the genocide in Palestine and broadly they support American Hegemony abroad. The only thing they disagree on is the gender, skin color, and sexuality of the people who can't get healthcare or parental leave.
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3h
Between the ACA, Medicare expansions, pre-existing condition coverage requirements, VA funding, and medication price reduction, Democrats have ensured that tens of millions of Americans have healthcare. Republicans have done their best to strip this away.
Democrat states usually do not have "right to work" laws that weaken union membership.
Democrats heavily pushed for a move away from fossil fuels, subsidized the expansion of electric car use, increased protected lands, and strengthened environmental laws. Republicans have undone most of this.
Democratic support of Israel is rapidly waning under public pressure. Republicans have not weakened their stance an inch.
Democrats funded and supported international aid across the world to generate soft power. Republicans have pulled this back and replaced it with threats and military force.
Dems are not perfect, but they are closer to your ideal by an immense amount.
thethrilloftime69@feddit.online · 1 pts · 2h
I think the difference between us is that I think the Democrats can at best accomplish half measures that don't fix the fundamental structure of the system. The ACA hands more power and money to insurance companies, it doesn't fix the fundamental problem. The Democrats support of Israel is "waning" but that hasn't really altered anything on the ground or even stopped the money from flowing.
You're acting like Obama didn't endorse more drone strikes than any president in history.
Like sure they are "technically" better but not in any of the ways that matter.
Lasherz12@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1d
I agree, but also don't think we should be so devoted as to defend them for being the only ones who can help us and having them watch and do nothing. They're more concerned with the people running on doing more. Is that an Ally or just the weaker of two enemies?
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
We should absolutely push the Democrats to do better and support DSA and other farther left candidates. Short term though, they are the best chance to wrest control of the government back from the MAGA fascists.
Lasherz12@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
They are the best chance insofar as we can change the party. FDR enacted many of his policies because the alternative was a mass uprising leading to murder of the owner class/scabs and the visuals of the societal abandonment of our elderly was dumping gasoline on the fire.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 1d
Well vote for progressives in the fuckin primaries and pull the fuckin party left because it's literally the only fuckin option that isn't republicans winning. Y'all can refuse to grasp the political reality all you want, but it doesn't change it.
Lasherz12@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
It's not refusing to grasp anything to talk about how our options are falling to hell or floating for a while. You're preaching to the choir about how to change it and if you haven't noticed: That is what's happening. We are entitled to bitch in the meantime, especially about areas where corporate and consultant interests superseded people's own best interests due to record levels of spending and nonstop concern trolling (eg: Cori Bush, Jamaal Bowman, Oliver Larkin, Charles Booker, etc). We also don't need permission from anyone to do so, thanks for your concern.
bold_atlas@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
Yep. But both sides still went to prison though.
Just as both of those cops couldn't be left on the street, the democrat party of today can't be same democrat party of tomorrow. We're going to make it better or we're not going to have a country just like Minneapolis didn't have police station after kicking those murder charges down the road.
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1d
Letting republicans set the standard? Im gonna be honest, this is not a good look for you.
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3h
It's simply choosing the least objectionable of the two options.
psycotica0@lemmy.ca · -2 pts · 1d
Cleaner, perhaps, but not usefully better.
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 37 pts · 2d
It is the job of fascists to make sure any groups who might oppose them are too busy fighting each other to stop them.
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1d
Just let people transfer their vote if their first preference doesn't win. Then the unrepresented get suffrage, and the democrats get more votes.
Ask yourself why democrats are saying no to these free votes. Maybe the DNC wants us fighting as well if they dont implement this common sense electoral reform in the blue states they control?
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3h
Of the states that have adopted election reform, nearly all are Democratic run (Alaska being an exception but they are weird). Meanwhile Republicans have actively passed laws to disenfranchise as many people as possible.
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · -8 pts · 2d
Uh... no? Of course they'd love it to happen, but that's not how fascists historically operate.
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 1d
Yeah, fascists never use propaganda to twist the public's beliefs to their benefit. /S
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 0 pts · 1d
I'd certainly be interested in historical examples of fascist propaganda meant specifically to divide the opposition (rather than simply gain more supporters).
kestrel7_7@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 1d
I mean, the historic Nazis basically presented themselves to the German political establishment as an anti-communist deal with the devil, and it worked well enough for them to take over Germany. Does that count?
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · -1 pts · 1d
I'd say not really. This deal with the devil tactic was ultimately about getting the German political establishment to support them in return for breaking communist skulls, so it falls pretty cleanly under "simply getting more supporters." What would count would be the Nazis trying to split people who oppose them from other people who oppose them (so social democrats from liberals, communists from social democrats, etc) so that the size of the opposition isn't changed but it's directed less effectively. What you're referring to is just selling oneself to potential supporters, which any political party/movement must do anyway.
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
Propaganda can have multiple purposes. It also drove a wedge between the far left and the center left. The same goes for the Nazis attacking LGBT people (sound familiar)?
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 1 pts · 1d
No it didn't. The people the Nazis were making deals with were squarely on the right of the German political spectrum. We're talking monarchists, rightwing nationalists and the like. A good proxy for this would be seeing which parties voted for the Enabling Act of 1933, and as you'll notice immediately if you're familiar with German politics from this period they're all rightwing. Hell, most of them weren't even republican. The center left here was the SPD, and they all (the ones that made it to the Reichstag anyway) voted no, while the communists were too busy suffering state repression. Importantly, the wedge that was driven between these two parties was driven by themselves.
teslekova@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 1d
They called themselves National Socialists. There's one example.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -1 pts · 1d
How do you think the Germans were convinced to more or less go along with the Holocaust?
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 0 pts · 1d
If you have a point make it I'm not going to read your mind.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 1d
Are you fuckin stupid or deliberately obtuse. Propaganda divided the populace to the point the average German didn't care their Jewish neighbors were being systematically executed. But at this point it's apparent you're deliberately engaging in bad faith so go fuck yourself.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · 0 pts · 1d
You might wanna do a bit of reading and maybe edit that comment because uh, yeah it kinda is.
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 0 pts · 1d
Like I said to the other person, if you have evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 22 pts · 1d
This actually was a bit of a process. After Hoover, America was a serious shithole. A Hooverville was a shanty town. We call them homeless encampments now. It took Roosevelt's new deal to pull us out with a lot of national programs.
Then WW2 happened and we were super in debt, and we needed to get really organized to develop a robust union-supported middle class, so that our GDP outpaced our debt + interest + spending.
And the owner class took all that personally. Before the war, the industrialists organized a propaganda campaign to instill capitalist values in the US (and no small amount of fascism). They weren't yet good at it but got better with time.
And once big industries were unionized and regulated, Lewis F. Powell Jr. wrote his notorious memorandum outlining the plan to recapture the government, especially the courts, in order to create a pro-commercial state, e.g. one in which unions weren't welcome, regulations weren't enforced, and the working class knew their place.
And the owner class has been following that agenda since. Of course, it is turning the US back into a shithole on the verge of fiscal collapse, but they don't care. Nor do they listen to the economics experts that point out that liberal democratic societies end up far richer, including their owner class. They think as Trump does, that they're the experts on everything, and they surround themselves with sycophants who don't disagree with them or challenge their ideas.
In the 1970s, but especially after Reagan, lobbyists and special interest groups gained access to elected officials, and got really clever in all the ways that they can bribe them. Politician went from being a decent career into a gateway into the owner class, and so people ran for office not to do things (e.g. to create change) but to be adjacent to power. Nowadays, money is super entrenched. Campaign contributions are dwarfed by PAC money which is dwarved by Superpacs, and then there's the promise of post-career cushy high-paying jobs... as lobbyists.
(Apparently it's super humiliating. Once you're in office, if you want to keep your campaign sponsors happy -- and willing to keep you in office -- you have to pass what they say. They give you the bills prewritten and expect them to be passed verbatim. Fail, and that sweet high-paying job you were promised after your political career is gone. So elected officials beholden to large sponsors are forced to be absolutely subservient. It explains why it's so natural for Republicans to abdicate all responsibility to Trump, and why establishment Democrats are incredibly milquetoast, and make every excuse not to pass public-serving legislation. It also explains why establishment Democrats are fighting progressive and DSA factions more fiercely than they fight Republicans, even though the GOP is actively trying to unmake the two-party system and arrest the Dems as political enemies as soon as they get the chance.)
Progressives and DSA are gaining traction specifically because the establishment Democrats are just weak Republicans, and many of those who'd vote for them would rather vote for the guy with the fancier suit and the better memes. Progressives and DSA are coming into office with an actual platform beyond we're better than the Republicans and are trying to actually pass public-serving policy.
Trump, in the meantime, has a knack for inviting people to be their worst selves. He attracts voters who just want to vote based on vibes, rather than a platform and their own best interests. Trump also is openly racist in contrast to the dog-whistle racist Republican party of 2015. White racist Americans found refreshing. He's only saying what we all are thinking. Since then, the Republican party now has a purity test, that either you're 100% MAGA devout, or you're a RINO. And already we're starting to see the MAGA movement start to cut into their own ranks, excluding those who are not quite perfect.
W98BSoD@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 21 pts · 1d
AviAdi@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 1d
I like this
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -7 pts · 1d
Brand new account likes inaccurate memes designed to depress voter turnout? Color me surprised.
W98BSoD@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 1d
Where is it inaccurate? Bring recipes.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -4 pts · 1d
It is a reductive simplification, to the point of uselessness. Look up the actual legislation that gets passed and gets voted on, who in what parties votes for what. But you're not here to engage in good faith, you're here to both sides so republicans win the midterms.
bold_atlas@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 1d
Can't you tell us what the good legislation they're passing is? Since you like posting here so much. You should have a notepad full of urls ready to go.
freddydunningkruger@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 21h
The fact that you dont know yourself shows how little you actually care or pay attention to politics, AND how little you understand how it works - they can't pass any legislation while idiots like you ensure the Republicans maintain control.
AviAdi@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
I'm just one little upvote
A_norny_mousse@piefed.zip · 20 pts · 2d
Agreed, but you should still go and vote the brainworm posse out.
ViceroTempus@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 1d
Look you're either down to use your allotment of violence this November to fight back within the system, or you're mad enough to fight The System, and build anew.
::: spoiler super secret option Both, both is also good. :::
Anything else makes you a Republican Asset. Fascism is already here, and I don't believe you can vote your way out, but there is value in getting the data to prove it. There is value in giving The Democratic Party enough rope to hang themselves with. To prove to both yourself and others that even with more power The Democratic Party will still only fight with strongly worded letters.
There is also value in pumping up the DSA faction inside the party, and helping them takeover.
There is no value in staying home, and it's too late this election to build a Third Party Movement. So your options are either get behind Blue, or get ready to get bloody. Otherwise you're just a whining Republican Asset.
InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1d
Just worth saying again.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -1 pts · 1d
This is literally the only path forward and everyone who isn't actively doing that is helping elect Republicans. But I'm pretty sure this is one of those subs that ban you if you try to say dems aren't as bad as republicans. World is filled with fuckass mods that ban when their feefees get hurt, make fuckin reddit mods look reasonable and deliberate half the time.
peregrin5@piefed.social · 12 pts · 1d
Voter depression task force out and about again right in time for midterms. Man "leftists" must really love having Republicans in power.
You folk are either Russian bots, or so far brainwashed by Russian bots you've become indistinguishable from them.
anotherspinelessdem@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 1d
Everyone I don't like is a Russian bot and other fairy tales
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 1d
Says the ml brigadier. Hopefully the pay is decent.
anotherspinelessdem@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 22h
Oh I'm raking in the Xi bucks, which is good considering the trajectory the dollar is on.
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1d
Why do you hate democracy so badly that you feel people should be forced to vote for your preferences?
deft@lemmy.wtf · 4 pts · 1d
Every single election cycle
m532@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1d
DudleyMason@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1d
Liberal brainworms.
"The only way to stop the fascists is to sweet unwavering, unquestioning loyalty to the party that made Fascism viable."
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 1d
Oh, I'll vote and vote blue no matter who.
But 2024 taught me that Americans do not care. They knew who Trump was. They saw how he is president. They heard what he said he wanted to do once in office. They knew about the Project 2025 Mandate for Leadership and what its plan was. And the majority of voters couldn't be bothered to vote against him.
On the Democratic side, I get the grievances, except that by not voting for the AIPAC lady, we're now watching as Israel plans to turn Gaza into a billionaire resort and just massacre the entire region. The Republicans don't have a conscience to be bargained with, while the Democrats have opinions that can evolve.
The price of eggs was an excuse. Americans voted based on vibes and racism. Not specific racism though they're being fed fear of brown immigrants, but permission to be racist. And now genocide of everyone not MAGA is in the Overton window.
Maybe all of the Republican election tampering and voter suppression shenanigans will fail to reduce the alleged blue tsunami to a blue trickle, and maybe the after-election shenanigans won't work, but that doesn't mean the Democrats are going to get full control of Congress and the Presidency in 2028. And if they do, that doesn't mean Democrats are actually going to sufficiently overhaul SCOTUS, and then ironclad elections from suppression, tampering, gerrymandering, voter caging and so on. And these things need to be done before any movement towards rebuilding regulatory institutions, soft power departments like USAID, reforming DHS or any of the other things that really need to be done.
And if all this isn't done in time, then American voters will get impatient, and follow their brainwashing to vote in oligarch puppets again. And this time the US will become a one-party state, and might even see its constitution dismantled.
So, I will vote. I think everyone absolutely needs to vote as if their lives and the lives of everyone they know depends on it. But I thought the same thing in 2024, and the constituency of the United States betrayed me. Seriously, eventually I'm going to end up on ICE's hit list, and they'll come for me. After that, they'll come for everyone else.
SCOTUS has locked federal political power in favor of MAGA. It's entirely captured. It has the capacity to nullify any or all parts of the Constitution of the United States, if they decide to do so. Expect to see carveouts of the 13th, 14th, 15th and 19th amendments just the way they scalloped the 4th and 5th. We have one chance to stop them. One.
So I'm not going to be dishonest about our actual chances. I still think everyone needs to vote. I also think Americans need to organize twelve million of us behind a single manifesto, so that when we general strike or occupy Washington, we have clear and established demands, and there is clearly nothing they can do about it and stay in power.
But I don't think Americans are up to the task, even if they are skipping meals and living off ramen. Even if their family is abducted and disappeared by ICE. Even if they're choking on data center fumes. Moreover because they still believe they have to check the R to prove they're not effeminate or communist.
I'll do my diligent duty. Heck I'm looking for my place in the organized resistance. But my faith in the people of the United States is gone. I'm not going to lie about that to purport hope or optimism.
Cherries@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1d
I think that people are mostly politically ignorant and for whatever reason, do not take the time to educate themselves on the deeper working of our political system. Most people rely on mainstream news or their twitter feed or podcasts to stay informed about what is going on. This is why messaging is so important.
In the 2024 election, Trump talked about all the horrible things he wanted to do, but he framed it from the position of, "these terrible things will help you". Now to the politically aware folks like the kind that comment on political threads, we knew this was a lie. But we are the types of people to do research into crime statistics and know that immigrants contribute a minisicule amount of crime in the USA.
Regardless of how we wish people were more politcally knowledgeable, they aren't, so it is important for the oppositional party to do that kind of informing. The Dem party should have been out there calling the Repubs ridiculous and giga-racist. Kamala Harris should have had a strong message of protecting our immigrant neighbors against racist dog whistles and highlighting the good they do. Instead, the Democratic party ran on strengthening the border and cracking down on immigrant crime.
When the politically ignorant voter looked at these two candidates, they saw one who said, "immigrants are a problem and I'm gonna get rid of them all" while the other said, "immigrants are a problem and I'm gonna get rid of some". They heard Kamala Harris say she wants to spend more money building the border wall when only a few years ago, the Democratic party was calling the border wall racist and bad. The common voter saw the decision between Coke and Diet Coke, no matter how innaccurate that comparison was because the Democratic party advertised themselves as Diet Coke.
I really wish the common person would do a little more research into politics, but it isn't really surprising that they often sit out elections when the Democrats keep advertising themselves as Republican-lite. So while I agree that the constituency has some blame in the current atate of affairs, I think the Democratic leadership bears far more of the blame. They know what is popular and what would help them win, they just don't want to win with progressive policies that won't personally enrich them. This is why I think to fix our current state of affairs, most of our focus should be on the Dem leadership that are passively observing our descent to hell.
Freeposity@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 21h
And this is why I fear for Hasan Piker's safety. Traditional media is smearing him so badly that even C-Span hosts are saying shit like, "Hasan Piker has made many anti-Semitic statements" which is patently untrue.
I think a lot of this is also coming from the political consultant class. These people make far to much money on elections and it's not in their personal financial interests to embrace grass roots efforts to get politicians elected. They want big donors so they can make big ad buys(and get a commission).
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 12h
But the pretense of democracy is that people will do their diligent research as part of their civic duty. Candidates should be entirely about platforms. Voting should entirely be about personal best interests. A high rate of political ignorance among the constituency is a symptom of a failing democracy already.
To be fair, US democracy was flawed from the beginning, partly because our framers didn't know fully what they were doing (Hamilton made some broad presumptions in the Federalist Papers,) and partly because the system was gamed from the beginning to be ruled by the petit bourgeoisie, because they feared rule by the common (uneducated) mob. Also, since they wanted to keep their slaves, they failed to uphold the enlightenment value that everyone is equal under law.
So we kinda got a bunk system to begin with.
The natural thing to do, then, would be to instill civic duty into the modern public education system. Teach kids critical thinking. Instill in them a sense of duty to be a check on government. Teach them to think about what is in their personal best interest, and to vote accordingly. And as we learn about manipulative tricks by the Republicans (e.g. single issue voting, racism campaigning) teach kids to recognize those, and to know someone's trying to play them for a fool.
We totally didn't do that. From the beginning, we taught obedience to authority.
Now, it turns out there was one time we did start teaching critical thinking. We beefed up the liberal arts taught in schools. We were really eager to raise kids who were STEM savvy, who could philosophize, who were willing to ask difficult questions. We did it once, and it was triggered by a singular event:
Sputnik.
Since then, we not only went right back to teaching obedience. Then we went to teaching to the test, as part of Republican effort to dismantle public education entirely. Between that and our range of fundamentalist Christian traditions through the south and the red states, we essentially set up our citizens to be Trump's instant army. In 2015 and 2016, we watched as Trump took the entire Republican base away from all the other candidates, because he dared to be openly racist.
Along with education, we also need our working class to have time and energy to engage civically. This means we need to allow them to afford to live while working them less. The three-day weekend and the 32-hour work week would be a start. (It would also likely increase productivity.) As an aside, our working class also need time and energy to parent, and since they don't get it, our kids suffer. As a gen-x latchkey kid, I didn't have parents at home, and yet our material standard of living wasn't any better.
But again, we're not doing that.
I suppose the survivors trying to start a new civilization can try sortition (that is election by lottery of all the qualified population). In that case they divide up duties so finely that no-one has too great an amount of power. And then they create a system of checks to make sure incompetent officials are out-voted until they can be replaced. That wouldn't mean tyrants would get into office, but our current system invites professional politicians, who dress fancy and speak with confidence, but can assert one set of positions while doing what their benefactors order them to do.
lntl@lemmy.ml · 11 pts · 1d
IMO democrats aren't really "left." They're more like "were going to use the federal gov to protect corporations" and then the GOP is more like "were going to use the state and local governments to protect corporations"
And then every November, Americans vote to protect corporations.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 1d
That's old news. Now Democrats are we're going to use the federal government to (mostly) pass protectionist legislation. and the GOP is like We're going to dismantle democracy, turn the US into a single-party autocracy and then no-one's vote will matter anymore.
Once they do that, the Democrats will become enemies of the state and will be arrested. But then, the executive will find that Congress is entirely useless. It'll be easy to get them to pass an enabling act after which elected officials don't really need to go to work.
By then, though, the country is going to be bankrupt, and will have no friends. If there's a half-functional military left, the US might try to annex Canada or Mexico.
Whostosay@sh.itjust.works · 10 pts · 1d
Weird uptick of both sides bullshit the closer we get to November, go vote.
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 1d
Predictable uptick
myyass@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 1d
I've been saying similar things for a long time now. Repulicrats and Demicrans are two sides of the same coin. Bush signed in the patriot act. I got all excited to make a change and voted for Obama. Then he signs in the expansion of the patriot act and carpet bombs the shit out of Syria.
athatet@lemmy.zip · 8 pts · 22h
Both sides are the same? We mush have an election coming up.
Mulligrubs@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 21h
BoTh SiDeS eLeCtIoN cOmInG. There's always an election coming. Every two years. When do you think it's appropriate to discuss the corporate ownership of our political parties?
Do we have a six month period in between elections or something?
Meanwhile, bOtH sIdEs made a BILLION dollars in the last election (that we know of), and, as usual, the winner ignored their own platform (as BoTh SiDeS routinely do). Billionaires shared the victory stage with Trump, clapping and smiling. They don't go away when the Democrats win.
Twenty years since last minimum wage increase.
OldChicoAle@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 1d
With all this national debt, you'd think we'd have something to show for it.
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 1d
A temporary trillionaire?
FlexibleToast@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 21h
We spent it mostly on tax breaks for the rich. We have billionaires with record levels of wealth and even had the first ever trillionaire to show for it.
crusa187@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 2d
This is why I think reforming the Democrats is a lost cause. They would rather torpedo the entire thing than give an actual leftist one iota of power.
El-Sayed / Hasan manufactured controversy playing out right now is a perfect example of what this looks like.
Freeposity@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 2d
Consider that a lot of this is coming from campaign consultants who eschew the idea of grass roots funded lean campaigns that don't waste money on TV ad buys(and more consultants).
Also, a lot of this is coming straight from AIPAC. Every single Democrat politician that is engaging in this character assassination spree is getting money from AIPAC.
And, since the lefty candidates tend to communicate to their base via "non traditional" means, traditional media sees them as a threat too.
ChicoSuave@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 2d
The whole manufactured controversy is just Israel's talking points. "Antisemitism" this and "no genocide" that - these aren't real points and it's why AIPAC incumbents are being singled out. The situation has become overly apparent that the DNC is hamstrung by foreign interests to be ineffective.
Mulligrubs@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
"Foreign interests".
It's the same interests as the "natives" ruling class. It's not about helping Israel or the USA, it's about money, and these interests are international. The ruling class of the USA is the same ruling class of Earth, the USA is the capital (formerly UK), and Israel is as enslaved to them as the USA, it's not the "controller".
Smif_N_Lenin@piefed.social · 2 pts · 1d
That includes war, from primitive accumulation to the MIC. See: The Palestine Laboratory
SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.social · 7 pts · 1d
This is the time of the year when accounts with a thousand post and ten comments start trying to depress the vote for the only party that has a chance to beat the republicans.
Katana314@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 1d
There’s a thousand criticisms of US politics I agree with, that make sense; but the one thing that has never made sense to me is why the Republican Party exists.
It’s a horrendous monster with no visible redeeming values. The Democrats can live off “We will fight the monster!” and be opportunistic scumbags, but no explanation given for why that monster exists.
As long as even some of the democrats build up a platform of fighting that monster, and have to pretend to do it, then it’s better than those monsters actually being in charge. I’m not a fan of handwaving the “hard fact” that group still continues to exist as a pure enemy of American success through today’s age, and it turns almost anything else into a lesser evil.
kestrel7_7@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 1d
Mostly gerrymandering/voter suppression/corruption (they’re all the same thing, to me). The Republicans are always accusing Democrats of influencing elections, because they know how easy it is.
You can look it up yourself pretty easily: there are about 1.5x as many people who reliably vote Democratic as there are people who reliably vote Republican. The only reason Republicans ever win anything is because of baldfaced voter suppression.
GripenGal@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 1d
The part that makes even less sense is that majority of Americans support that monster party, even after it got significantly more monstrous (maggot movement)
deft@lemmy.wtf · 0 pts · 1d
Republican as a party has existed for basically the same amount of time the US has. It doesn't really have it's own goals.
The problem is just that poor people's voices are actively suppressed in favor of the dollar
TrickDacy@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1d
Whoops total accident
Space_Cowboy92@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1d
There’s a lot of liberals in here thinking they’re leftists, or trying to “unify the left” in their usual bullshit ways.
Godric@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 2d
"Both sides same"
dohpaz42@lemmy.world · 29 pts · 2d
This is a real and legitimate threat. Dismissing it outright does just as much harm as you perceive the “both sides” argument you’re railing against. The only time it’s a legitimate problem is when it’s used to dissuade voters from voting. It still needs to be discussed so hopefully it can be fixed.
Mulligrubs@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 2d
They're not the same, but they are both anti-union and pro-corporation.
Indisputable.
... and they're working together to fuck you.
rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 10 pts · 1d
"I have no concept of nuance. Red party bad, blue party good. Any opinion other than this is a Russian bot"
Godric@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 1d
"I really need to stand up and say both sides bad, a month before a major election. Every needs to know RIGHT NOW!!1!!"
rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 11 pts · 1d
I've been consistently hating both parties since 2014, when I participated in my first election. Nice try though.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -4 pts · 1d
Bold to brag about your lack of political literacy for over a decade.
rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 1d
You don't know shit about me. Don't pretend you can ascribe what I know from a single comment.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -4 pts · 1d
Given the total lack of nuance in your comment and response, I'm confident ascribing plenty.
rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 1d
If you want nuance, I can give it to you. I've successfully formed a union that spans across 3 states, including Texas. It's one of the largest tech unions in North America. We got it through political messaging. Generally I consider anyone that can successfully get people to join a union for political reasons a pretty informed and nuanced person. But what do I know.
Smif_N_Lenin@piefed.social · 4 pts · 1d
Maybe differentiate between candidates with a Democratic socialist platform and candidates subservient to the wealthy elite and corporations?
ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.net · 4 pts · 1d
Posts like this are designed to split the left so that the right can keep power.
wpb@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 1d
I'm confused as to which parts of the left it's supposed to split. The communists and the democratic socialists? The anarchists and the worker democracy folks? The DSA from independents like Sanders?
I feel like the message of the post is more so about uniting as the left flank against pro-corporate politicians like most of the democrats and republicans.
ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.net · -4 pts · 1d
The goal of the post is to pit the far left against he moderate left so that either one side stays home, or the other side votes with the right.
This is fucking stupid. Eliminating MAGA has to be job #1, nothing else happens until that does. MAGA needs to lose in 2028 by margins unheard of in modern elections. like 75-80% margins. Failing that, they'll just come back with more dirty tricks...
I practice the "Vote left in EVERY election" I will always vote for the furthest left candidate no matter what. In the primary, this means voting for the DemSoc or the very liberal... But in the General it sometimes mean voting for the moderate just base don them not being MAGA...
This is the ONLY way we get control back.
MJKee9@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 1d
The "far left" principles align with most normal people. When was the last time Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer represented your interests.
So, OPs post isn't trying to split the party... The actions of corporate dems ARE splitting the party. Just look at "left leaning" media coverage on Mandami, El-Sayed and Angie Nixon. They are spouting the same things you are hearing on Fox News..... Yet, let's blame OP for the "split" and not the people in charge whose fault it is. I think they call that Stockholm Syndrome.
ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.net · 0 pts · 1d
Except that "normal people" aren't the ones voting.
America is a center-left country.. Like it or not, the far-left policies don't resonate with more than half of the idiots in this country.. I agree with you. Thinking people embrace them...but accusing Americans of being "Thinking people" is kind of a laugh..
So vote as far left as you can in every election. That's how you drag the country to the left. It's not going to be an overnight fix, it's taken 250 years to get this fucked up, it's going to take at least 2-3 generations of hard work to get it back.
But we START be eliminating MAGA from the american consciousness, and the only way we do that is by defeating them so soundly the money dries up because corporate america views them as a lost cause. That is a vital first step and nothing else works until they're gone.
MJKee9@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
You are starting with several false assumptions. A couple of which: (1) the center-left politicians actually want to eliminate maga and (2) progressive candidates are to the left of the American populace. Bout assumptions are incorrect. I'm not going to convince you regarding either. But, the bottom line is, The only way to eliminate maga and maga-lite influence in us politics is to support politicians that focus on affordability issues and congressional fiance reform. That is a platform farmers in the Midwest, laborers on the coast, and even the populace of Texas can get behind. Watering down a message to appeal to a central base ends up pissing off everybody except for the most milquetoast of electorate. That's the reason Trump is won twice and also almost won in 2020.
ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.net · -1 pts · 1d
Just because the people in your circle are all hard-left, doesn't mean the country is. We're a 52-48 (barely) liberal leaning country... so yes, most progressive candidates are to the left of the average american... Slightly more conservative candidates are to the right of the average american... Most fall somewhere in the center.
If you want to move the country to the left, convincing the left-moderates isn't the hard part... It's convincing the center-left moderates to come over... the ones who believe the government does spend too much, but also who believe we do need to maintain a strong military and use it wisely...
I vote for any candidate that puts education first in a very real way. The only way we dig ourselves out of the hole we're in is restoring the education cuts that started with Ronald Regan in the 80's... The end result of that being generations of people who aren't capable of critical thought in any real way...
MJKee9@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16h
I'm in a solid red state. I believe the "average American" is further left than you do. Centrism is a lie that has been shoved down our throats by every media outlet for most of my adult life. For the first time in my lifetime, most of us have access to media that isn't controlled by the ruling capitalists. The center left alignment will continue to swing further left so long as this is the case. I know that 30% of the populace would vote right regardless.... But that 40% will be responsive to progressive messages, which are frankly working class messages, when most of them are in the working class these days.
Edit: btw, i respect your perspective, which was close to mine not long ago
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -3 pts · 1d
You people always talk like the Dems are a mono-party that votes in lockstep like the Republicans when they're the big tent party consisting of everyone from MAGA adjacent to as close to socialist as the US can get, and it's really transparent what you're trying to do. If both sides were the same and voting didn't matter republicans wouldn't be trying so hard to prevent people from voting but y'all are too fuckin oblivious to see how obvious that is.
MJKee9@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1d
What the fuck are you talking about? Nobody mentioned a both sides argument. Stop creating strawmen. Everybody should vote. And if the left wants to win, the DNC need to abandon their corporate first mentality or they will be left in the dust of history.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 1d
If the left wants to win they need to vote in the fucking primaries and prevent republicans from winning the generals, which means voting for democrats. Everything else gets republicans elected.
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 1d
We get primaries this time?
ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.net · 1 pts · 16h
There is an old say8ng "democrats fall in l9ve, republicans fall in line."
Still amazingly true, and why we keep losing.
stepan@lemmy.cafe · 1 pts · 22h
i'm being paid directly by charlie kirk from his secret bunker in tel aviv
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1d
You don't get to say "we" if you tell people to shut the fuck up and vote for your preference regardless of what they believe.
QueenHawlSera@piefed.social · 0 pts · 1d
They are down voting you for speaking the truth
ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.net · 0 pts · 1d
I'm used to it. Being the voice of reason is tiresome sometimes...
stepan@lemmy.cafe · 19 pts · 1d
you either don't believe that the liberal democratic "left" constantly attacks the real left because it endangers the status quo, or you think the real left should ignore it and still team up with them even as they do everything to weaken them.
if the first is the case, i believe you should do more research and i can post some links.
if the second, i think that's a dumb strategy and never really worked. it's well known that liberals always team up with the fascists in the end to protect the status quo.
grue@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
wpb@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1d
Using the phrase "game theory" when you really mean "I've had a bit of a think" is an antipattern, and much more transparent than you seem to think.
grue@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1d
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 2 pts · 1d
Literally nobody said anything about voting.
grue@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1d
This discussion is about "splitting the left," and voting is the primary way in which that manifests. Of course we were talking about voting (and in particular, how posts like this discourage it), even if the particular word wasn't used yet.
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 2 pts · 1d
The parent comment asserted without evidence that "posts like this are designed to split the left." Then Štěpán responded by doubting that the unity the parent comment implied exists in the first place. This is all a dispute of facts; actions can then be taken based on those facts but so far you're assuming an argument "don't vote for the Democrats" that nobody made. Or, in other words, there are conclusions you can make from "the centrists actually hate us and everything we stand for" other than "don't vote in the election."
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 1d
The second is literally the only way party reform has occurred historically. If you think change can happen another way you're delusional. You're literally declaring that it has to be full tilt republican fascism or actual revolution because both of those are infinitely more likely than a third party ever having power. So are you just an accelerationist? You working for republicans? Are you even American? You a tankie? What's your goal here, because stopping the rise of fascism sure doesn't seem to rate for you.
MJKee9@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1d
You are on the wrong side of this issue. Stop blaming everybody else and look at your own assumptions and beliefs. You're acting more like a controlled op than the people you're responding to.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -4 pts · 1d
Bot ass comment.
ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.net · -2 pts · 1d
Oh I fully believe it's happening, but I think it's a problem that is amplified by the right to suppress liberal turnout...and it works. Look at 2024. It fucking worked.
And it's going to happen again in 2028 if we don't knock it the fuck off.
Step 1 has to be the elimination of MAGA...
Step 2 through 10 involve actually fixing the system. But none of it will happen if step 1 isn't completed FIRST.
chortle_tortle@mander.xyz · 4 pts · 1d
I just don't feel confident that it was the propaganda of the right suppressing liberal interest, and not the authentic apathy of people not finding democracy in the democratic party.
I also don't feel confident the current for of the democratic party is equipped for this, and I think not pushing them to do better is how we went from Biden to Trump 2.
ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.net · 1 pts · 1d
Push them to do better by voting in the primaries... but don't give up and stay home when the candidate you like doesn't win the primary. Fucking vote.
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 1d
Yeah! if the people didnt want kamala to be the one to run against Trump, they would have voted so in the primary.
ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.net · -2 pts · 1d
I actually liked Harris. She was smart, skilled, and experienced. But she had a vagina so 7 million Joe Biden voters refused to show up.. (I know that's only part of the reason, but I also know that misogyny is just as prevalent in the left as it is in the right.
chortle_tortle@mander.xyz · 4 pts · 1d
I vote down ballot every election, I am not who you need to convince. I am explaining to you that, as we saw in 24, when people don't feel heard they don't show up. You can take another stab at corporate dems trying to vote shame enough people into showing up, or you can learn from the past and realize shame doesn't motivate votes.
ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.net · 0 pts · 1d
I'm at the point that I might be the one to stop showing up.. I mean, if people are so focused on their pet project that they have stopped giving a shit about stopping the overarching evil, then maybe it's time to let the evil win.
chortle_tortle@mander.xyz · 2 pts · 1d
Maybe you could ride this emotion into a shred of empathy and imagine yourself being a Palestinian who had 20+ family members killed under Biden, watched the DNC attendees cover their ears when faced with the government they support, watched your close friends tear gassed and arrested for begging your school to stop giving money to the slaughter of your family; then after no primary, no voice at the DNC, and a cheered promise of the most lethal military in the world, you're insulted for having a "pet project" that is over shadowed by the 'real' evil.
America is evil when democrats are in power too, and if you want to throw a tantrum instead of be productive, I can't stop you. But maybe you should realize there are people that have been at this fight longer than we've been alive and are trying more than just voting.
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1d
Im so glad youre being honest with yourself.
rumimevlevi@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 1d
I think he is splitting people are the establishment democrats who are going to fox news to attack the leftists and DSA
ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.net · -3 pts · 1d
30% of the voters are far-right... That's pretty much established. 30% are far-left. Like it or not, the middle 40% are the ones who actually make the decisions, and I think those are the ones they're trying to appeal to... Almost every election moves based on the people who are willing to look at both sides and make a decision.
I always assume a politician's message is going to change depending on what news channel they're on, because they're talking to a different group of people. You get on Fox news talking to fox-news-troglodytes and start spouting DSA rhetoric you're going to get ignored, and it's a waste of time.
Alexfire@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1d
Need the big money out of politics, but not enough reps that would vote for that get elected, and can't get ranked choice and other things that help, We The People, and not the wealthy owners.
bad1080@piefed.social · 3 pts · 1d
i hear sharia law is making it happen for the people of NYC
multifariace@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
Absolutley true. Yet, you still need to vote to have any say in what's happening. Don't let this stop you and don't be discouraged in criticizing either. Both are very important democratic freedoms. Voting does more than protesting. Questioning and researching make your vote wiser. Dissent defies these freedoms in many ways.
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
Barf shides Baaaaa
nosuchanon@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1d
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 1d
Lol. Both sides.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · -1 pts · 23h
Our government is like a company with two different managers. One manager is a wonderful boss, and everybody loves them, and wants to work for them. The other manager is a raging asshole, and everybody despises him, and nobody wants to work for him.
In reality, nobody works for either manager, they work for the corporation, and the managers are just there to do the corporations bidding, and advance the corporation's agenda. They might approach it differently, but ultimately they are both responsible for meeting the corporation's agenda.
That's the Dems vs MAGAs. They might have totally different approaches, but ultimately, they are there to serve the demands of the Sociopathic Oligarchs, and our job is to pay for it.
freddydunningkruger@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 21h
Nobody is going to read all your propaganda bullshit, next time just say BOTH SIDES SAME DURP!! Same message, fewer words, makes sure MAGA stays in power just like you want.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 1d
Oh look, another lemmy post trying to help Republicans win the midterms. Fucking lemmings and their unrelenting lack of political literacy.
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 1d
Democrats could always replace First-past-the-post voting in the blue states they control. Then the people could run alongside the democrats with no spoiler effect.
But then democrats would have to actually compete, and capitalists hate competition.
urthoughtsrbad@lemmy.zip · -2 pts · 1d
Yeah you tell em! If Dems were in power we would be able to make Israel’s genocide look milder!
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 1d
Oh look another brand new account trying to get people not to vote.
urthoughtsrbad@lemmy.zip · -6 pts · 1d
Oh look a dip who can’t read and is putting words in peoples mouths. Stop posting your pathetic cuck thoughts online. The world would be a better place.
To put it in a way YOU might understand: less of your thoughts posted online would mean more Mamdani’s elected.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 1d
Why are all you right wing weirdos obsessed with cuckery? Are you going to bring up your obsession with BBC and girlcock too? Fuckin creep.
urthoughtsrbad@lemmy.zip · -3 pts · 1d
More words in mouths from the feckless cow. right wing if you disagree with meeeeee.
I call you a cuck because you sit and watch democrats and republicans fuck our country up while talking up one of the fuckers in an online corner.
You should do something productive instead of going online and defending rich pedos because they wear your team colors.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -4 pts · 1d
It's ok to want to suck a dick. Just go suck some cock instead of burning down the country because you're sexually repressed.
urthoughtsrbad@lemmy.zip · -2 pts · 1d
You write what you want to write. I’ll keep calling you a pedo loving cuck until you stop doing that. A downvote from the likes of y’all is a W for me.
givesomefucks@lemmy.world · -6 pts · 2d
This is like someone saying they'll never support the NE patriots because they don't like Tom Brady...
It made sense when Brady was leading the team, but he's gone for a while now.
So if you keep talking about the Brady years like it's today, people are gonna assume you're so clueless, you think he's still the NE QB.
But for the love of whatever you give a shit about:
Stop calling the neoliberals "Democrats"
They're a minority of politicians with no control over the party currently. Pretending they're the better, just depresses dem.tuenoit and increases the neoliberal's odds of taking back the party
Cherries@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1d
Do you believe Chuck Schumer or Hakeem Jeffries have no power over the Dem party? Or do you think they are not neoliberals?
You would be right if you claimed that most of the Democrat voter base is not neoliberal, but neoliberals definitely make up a majority of the Democratic elected officials in power. As a recent example, three neoliberal zionist Dems were appointed to the Foregin Affairs Committee. They will have a lot of influence on how the US conducts overseas policy.
These kinds of decisons made by the Democrat party are what depresses voter turnout. The neoliberal politicians who are taking advice from neoliberal consultants like Third Way or the Center for American Progress are dragging down the country because they would rather lose to the fascists than win with the progressives. They would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven.
givesomefucks@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
What do you think their power was?
For the last decade it was the DNC's control over the "victory fund", which the current DNC leader already drained and gave back to state parties.
Before that, if you didn't do what they wanted, they'd bankrupt your whole state party and let Republicans have it
Even if they regain control of the DNC, they won't have that war chest anymore.
This is all incredibly basic and happened over a year ago....
What's your excuse for not knowing any of that?
And I didn't read past that quoted line, because if you don't understand how that works, everything else is going to be wrong. Because you fundamentally don't understand any of the context.
Cherries@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1d
How do you think these committee members are picked? Why is it a big news story that Hakeem Jeffries was in private meetings with Jared Kushner? When the media asks for the general strategy of the Democrat party, who gets interviewed as the face of the partty?
And if you are talking about the DNC spending all it's money funding incumbents against primary challengers, yeah, I think it's a problem that the DNC is going into the midterms $2 million in debt. The Establishment Dems should have let the primaries run their course instead of trying to put their thumb on the scale to get their preferred candidates through the primaries.
When the common person who is not very politically active looks into their voting options, they look to mainstream news. They listen to Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries because they are the Minority Leader and Caucus Leader. They listen to Ezra Klein's podcast because Third Way is institutionally respected as representing the modern Democratic party. They read Neera Tanden's tweets because the Center for American Progress is the main think tank of the Democrat party. The common person is told over and over that the Democrats are for neoliberal policies and they believe it because the Dem politicians in the highest positions of power and prominence are neoliberal.
Regular people are so hungry for progressive action that something as basic as a nyc mayor fixing potholes is seen as newsworthy. When they are faced with a barrage of neoliberal talking points from the leaders and consultants of the oppositional party, they get depressed. That is the leaders of the Democratic party flexing their power to punish their voter base for believing that better things are possible. That's how you get stupid shit like "Democrats for Mike Rogers" or two Dems being the key votes to pass GOP bills last week. The leaders of the Democrat party are spending all their time trying to foment anger against their left flank instead of channeling the already existing anger against the Republican party.
edible_funk@sh.itjust.works · -1 pts · 1d
Fucks there has gotten more and more unhinged ever since that Nazi he was supporting turned out to also be a rapist. You're not gonna get any valuable discourse from him. Every single comment is just blaming democrats for everything regardless of reality. But then it looks kind of like you do too so I'm not sure why y'all are disagreeing. Here are the options in plain words for both of you. Primary establishment Dems with progressives which requires voting in the primaries, then you prevent Republicans from winning generals by electing the democrats. In like the two fucking counties in the entire country where third parties are actually viable, go ham. Otherwise you're getting republicans elected. And republicans are worse than democrats, full stop. Anyone who doesn't agree with that isn't a serious person and is working for republicans.
Cherries@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1d
I agree that Republicans are worse than Democrats and I also agree that it is important to get progressive Democrats into power. I just wish the Dems in power would also hold these opinions.
My frustrations with the current Dem leadership is that they are following the advice of influential political analyst James Carville to "roll over and play dead" when it comes to opposing the Republicans, but are fighting tooth and nail when it comes to opposing progressive candidates. It really feels like the Dem leadership is not serious and is working with the Republicans.
givesomefucks@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 1d
Buddy...
Every current committee is useless because even the few that aren't majority Republican, nothing is going to get done.
Because they're pieces of shit...
The people the oligarchs who own the media want people to think are running shit, if only to make people less likely to vote in Dem primaries.
Freeposity@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 1d
This is a tell that you are a conservative.
kestrel7_7@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1d
I grew up in a family full of Democrats and I had no awareness of the “democrat party” vs. “democratic party” discourse until earlier this year. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think it’s the conservative shibboleth you’re acting like it is.
Freeposity@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 21h
It's been a right wing epithet for decades. You can't get a Republican to say the name of the Democratic Party.
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 2 pts · 1d
Or mistyped.
Soulphite@reddthat.com · 5 pts · 2d
I'll never support MAGA because I didn't like Reagan and he's been gone a while before the pedophile took it over and made it the super circus it is today. I hate the pedophile way more.
TheFinn@discuss.tchncs.de · -9 pts · 1d
The left have a job in all this too, and it is to sit back and let it all happen. Occasionally be dismissive of the voting process and attack liberals that might otherwise agree with you, without educating them first.
If you're for some reason not cool with losing, you should probably begin working to reform your party into something that's actually helpful and effective.
urthoughtsrbad@lemmy.zip · -10 pts · 1d
Cabal of clown pedos are your party. Both parties. Not everyone wants to be a cuck about it.
If Trump runs I might vote for him for the first time so you might be willing to give up your little 600 sqft shack and 80 hour work week.
Until then always remember that violence isn’t the answer! And that the Dems tried their best!