so now proton completely blocking account creation through their onion adress? I have standard protection, javascript enabled. Time to swith for those who use this service as they are ditching tor and switzerland?
protonmail blocks account creation through tor
90 Comments
Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org · 93 pts · 363d
A lot of push against Proton on here lately. Makes me suspicious.
geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml · 17 pts · 363d
Valid criticism is suspicious?
Ilandar@lemmy.today · 13 pts · 363d
Ilandar@lemmy.today · 7 pts · 362d
I am deeply sorry to whichever moderator i offended so much that they needed to delete my comment. Thanks to your guidance I have now learned to hate Proton like a good lemming and will boycott them for the rest of my life as penance for making you cry.
lemmyknow@lemmy.today · 10 pts · 362d
Not saying it's some sort of conspiracy theory, but it do be kinda sus. People are just quick to hate Proton over anything. It's like bias confirmation. They seem to be justifying their hatred, or looking for reasons to do so. I mean, "leaving Switzerland"? Really?! I thought that was because Switzerland was considering a privacy-unfriendly law. That's bad, now?
not_IO@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 362d
it should be possible to criticize a mail provider without being flooded by it's evangelists. Especially proton, their image of privacy does not reflect reality at all
BluescreenOfDeath@lemmy.world · -20 pts · 363d
There's been evidence in their github repo that they're using LLMs to code their tools now.
It's making me reconsider using them.
Zetta@mander.xyz · 40 pts · 363d
Theres evidence they use the very popular tool cursor that many devs and large companies use.
limer@lemmy.ml · 25 pts · 363d
LLM is avoided by many experienced developers and competent medium and small companies.
Tools like cursor are sometimes ok for small things like people learning, or to generate boilerplate.
But it is seen by some as a warning flag when it’s in source code for larger projects
3abas@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 363d
This comment is meaningless.
What red flags? Why is it a red flag is an be experienced developer used cursor on a larger project? Put it into words.
irotsoma@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 362d
It's very time consuming to detect and correct the small mistakes that LLMs make. Beyond one or two lines of code, it becomes much more time consuming to correct the multitude of subtle mistakes vs coding it myself. I use code completion that comes with my IDE, but that is programmatic completion, not LLM, and is much, much more accurate and in smaller chunks that are easy to verify at a glance. I've never known any experienced developers who have had a different experience. LLMs can be good for getting a general idea of how to code something in a new language or framework I've never touched before and more to help find actual examples rather than use the code directly in the IDE, but if I were to use LLM code directly that would be in a test project, never, ever in production code. I would never write production code in a language I've never used before with or without an LLM's "help".
limer@lemmy.ml · -1 pts · 363d
When adding code this way, one needs to look it over and read to fix bugs or things that are not quite correct; stats show experienced developers often are faster not using this approach because debugging existing code takes longer than writing it fresh.
The speed is not the issue.
What matters is sometimes subtle bugs are introduced that require several people to catch. If at all. These issues might be unique to the Llm.
Having large sections of generated code offers the possibility of hard to find problems.
Some codes are more sensitive to such issues.
The details of how the code was added, and what it does, may render this issue harmless or very much a problem to be avoided.
This is why it’s a flag and not a condemnation
lerky@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 20 pts · 363d
irmadlad@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 363d
All technology weilds a double edged sword.
BluescreenOfDeath@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 363d
Sure, but with all the mistakes I see LLMs making in places where professionals should be quality checking their work (lawyers, judges, internal company email summaries, etc) it gives me pause considering this is a privacy and security focused company.
It's one thing for AI to hallucinate cases, and another entirely to forget there's a difference between
=and==when the AI bulk generates code. One slip up and my security and privacy could be compromised.You're welcome to buy in to the AI hype. I remember the dot com bubble.
irmadlad@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 363d
We've been using 'AI' for quite some time now, well before the advent of AI Rice Cookers. It's really not that new.
I use AI when I master my audio tracks. I am clinically deaf and there are some frequency ranges that I can't hear well enough to master. So I lean heavily on AI. I use AI for explaining unfamiliar code to me. Now, I don't run and implement such code in a production environment. You have to do your due diligence. If you searched for the same info in a search engine, you still have to do your due diligence. Search engine results aren't always authoritative. It's just that Grok is much faster at searching and in fact, lists the sources it pulled the info from. Again, much faster than engaging a search engine and slogging through site after site.
BluescreenOfDeath@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 363d
If you want to trade accuracy for speed, that's your prerogative.
AI has its uses. Transcribing subtitles, searching images by description, things like that. But too many times, I've seen AI summaries that, if you read the article the AI cited, it can be flatly wrong on things.
What's the point of a summary that doesn't actually summarize the facts accurately?
Zetta@mander.xyz · 4 pts · 363d
As the other guy said, double edged sword. Asbestos was fucking great, and is still used for certain things because it's great. The poor interaction with human biology was the other side of the sword.
An aside, I just pulled a fuck load of vinyl asbestos tile out of a house a year ago and while it wasn't actually all that dangerous because I took proper precautions it's sorta scary anyway cause of the poor interaction thing.
Valmond@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 363d
Bullshit.
fluffy@feddit.org · 4 pts · 362d
I think you don’t know what “evidence” means. It’s barely a clue.
BluescreenOfDeath@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 362d
It's a single data data point, nothing more, nothing less. But that single data point is evidence of using LLMs in their code generation.
Time will tell if this is a molehill or a mountain. When it comes to data privacy, given that it just takes one mistake and my data can be compromised, I'm going to be picky about who I park my data with.
I'm not necessarily immediately looking to jump ship, but I consider it a red flag that they're using developer tools centered around using AI to generate code.
JumpyWombat@lemmy.ml · 55 pts · 363d
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 30 pts · 363d
I have tried a new circuite before publish this post - without success. but considering that I use their onion adress they could nit see my tor exit node as far as I now, anyway.
JumpyWombat@lemmy.ml · 19 pts · 363d
yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de · 9 pts · 363d
Yeah, I've had to go through 20 or 30 circuits once to make Google's captcha allow me through. It just failed with the message "Unusual traffic from your computer network". Someone was probably running a botnet, as this only happens rarely. If Google wanted to block Tor, they'd have done so by now anyway.
mp3@lemmy.ca · 22 pts · 363d
He used the onion address, which doesn't go through an exit node like regular darknet-to-clearnet traffic.
upstroke4448@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 51 pts · 363d
Have you actually asked proton support about this issue, if so what have they said?
It seems like you got frustrated and instead of trying to get help you decided to complain on lemmy.
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -10 pts · 362d
Hi, they have average response time 1 month. Probably it'is not useful when you want create account now, yes? "instead of trying to get help you decided to complain on lemmy" and what? proton blocked tor, it is their decision, it is not a bug. I have my other email provider so I do not need to beg proton to unblock tor registration. My objective was to inform lemmy users about this, I did not ask for help in my post as you noticed. If proton company is interested in their customers they can monitor such complaints but since they "cut their presence" on mastodon and opensource media platforms it will not happen.
Lazhward@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 362d
How do you know?
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -7 pts · 362d
is it joke? please see the pic attached to the post, if you not believe try by yourserf
upstroke4448@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 362d
The average response time is nowhere near a month.
It seems more and more this was a bad faith post. I'm not sure I believe you even use proton.
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -3 pts · 362d
Look, for me it is not important if you believe me or not. I dont beg yout to ditch protonmail
upstroke4448@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 362d
You say that and yet you feel the need to respond and down vote.
If you didn't care about what others thought you wouldn't have made the post.
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -4 pts · 362d
Just lets dont play Hannibal Lecter's dialogue and stop conversation.
upstroke4448@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 362d
So odd how this works for everyone else who tries it and support answers them in less then a months time....
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -3 pts · 362d
Do not believe other, try by yourself.
You are blocked for lack of interest in conversation.
artyom@piefed.social · 29 pts · 363d
What makes you think this has anything to do with Tor?
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 8 pts · 363d
Because i can easely create account on clearnet
artyom@piefed.social · 2 pts · 363d
That's it?
dysprosium@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 10 pts · 363d
What else should be tested? I think this guy deserves praise for his methods
artyom@piefed.social · 15 pts · 363d
Definitely a lot more than that should be tested before declaring they're "ditching Tor". If that's what they were doing this site wouldn't even exist.
asudox@lemmy.asudox.dev · 3 pts · 363d
I remember when they had an onion domain and the signup button would redirect you to the clearnet page for signup. Afaik it also did that bullshit at some other places. So I wouldn't be surprised.
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 362d
what purpose of the site if you cant use it for registration? regarding your notice reddit has onion site too for example but after I cant login to my account after sign up too... facebook has onion site too but if you sign up through onion site they will restrict your account and ask for id.. So maybe its not something that important?
artyom@piefed.social · 1 pts · 362d
I'm saying the site not working is likely unintentional, and the result of some sort of technical error.
coffeetastesbadlikecoffee@sh.itjust.works · 25 pts · 362d
I previously commented I would write the support, now I actually read the docs first and found out why:
If you want to create an account over tor you can, just not via the clearnet URL, probably due to rate limiting by IP adress. However if you use their Onion Link as specified in this article by their support (https://proton.me/support/tor-setup) it works just fine (as far as I just tested). So great! Because using .onion services is far more secure than accessing clearnet over Tor anyway.
Here the url, verify it with the link in the support article tho: https://protonmailrmez3lotccipshtkleegetolb73fuirgj7r4o4vfu7ozyd.onion/
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 13 pts · 362d
The onion link was used, please see my screenshot first...
coffeetastesbadlikecoffee@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 362d
Huh, that's wierd. Because it worked for me... they must be rate limiting Tor.
EngineerGaming@retrolemmy.com · 3 pts · 362d
I checked that (together with the clearnet link) a few times recently, got a nondescript error like "sorry something went wrong" every time.
coffeetastesbadlikecoffee@sh.itjust.works · 20 pts · 362d
Just tested it, same here. Clearnet works but tor not. I will contact support since part of the reason I like to pay for unlimited is to subsidize free, anonymous accounts.
Edit: here is my other comment:
I previously commented I would write the support, now I actually read the docs first and found out why:
If you want to create an account over tor you can, just not via the clearnet URL, probably due to rate limiting by IP adress. However if you use their Onion Link as specified in this article by their support (https://proton.me/support/tor-setup) it works just fine (as far as I just tested). So great! Because using .onion services is far more secure than accessing clearnet over Tor anyway.
Here the url, verify it with the link in the support article tho: https://protonmailrmez3lotccipshtkleegetolb73fuirgj7r4o4vfu7ozyd.onion/
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 361d
Okay, if they will responder faster than in one month you could publish the respond here if you will like to do it. But I am surr they will say it is a "technical error". Every privacy leak now is described as technical error - apple, google, meta - all use this therm to justify their intentional action
not_IO@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 10 pts · 362d
Does anybody know valid alternatives to proton mail, I think they have been enshitified
hanrahan@slrpnk.net · 11 pts · 362d
Tuta ? But only for mail AFAIK.
markstos@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 362d
There is a relatively small number of shared Tor exit node IP addresses.
So it’s more likely using Tor will trigger “too many attempts for IP” throttling for any service with bot protection.
It’s nothing against Tor, but is an expected side-affect of attempting to be anonymous by sharing the same IP address with many people.
Ephemeral@feddit.org · 5 pts · 362d
Mailbox.org (option if you want custom domain) or Posteo.de
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 362d
I use posteo.de provider, it costs 1 eur for month, 3 adress, they have inbound encryption of emails as proton, also they dont accept crypto but you can pay by cash and card and "All of our payment methods are anonymised using a payment system developed by Posteo. We do not link payment information with email accounts." You can learn more about their privacy features on their site https://posteo.de/en/site/features#featuresprivacy
meta4@retrolemmy.com · 4 pts · 362d
Why are you trying to sign up for Proton if you already use another provider?
not_IO@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 362d
i'm sorry can't you have multiple email accounts anymore? privacy and all that, remember?
meta4@retrolemmy.com · 1 pts · 361d
Sure you can. Wouldn't that have been an easy excuse for this guy to reply with instead of all this defensive bullshit?
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -2 pts · 362d
how this question is relate to my post about proton blocks registration through their onion site? sorry but I only interested in respond questions directly associated with this or other email providers. my decision to try proton as additional service should not be the problem...
meta4@retrolemmy.com · 5 pts · 362d
Seems a fair question to ask someone who makes a post to direct people away from a service under the presumption that they were trying to use it, only to find in the comments that they already use a different service that they not only enjoy, but are happy to freely advertise for.
Also, your justification for their lack of crypto payments is that they use a payment system they designed themselves, which I find funny since most of the complaints I see about Proton (granted, not yours) is the unverifiability of their operations, leaning on "Just trust me, bro." which is the same thing as this site's payment processing system. 🤭
not_IO@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 0 pts · 362d
it's not a fair question people can use multiple email providers, especially a privacy conscious person would know that. proton logs your ip and gives it to the police when they ask, without warrent
meta4@retrolemmy.com · 3 pts · 361d
They had a warrant.
It's okay to have privacy concerns regarding that, but don't make shit up to make it sound worse than it was.
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -3 pts · 362d
Did you have so much free time to criticise me unstead of doing something important? Such a good decision.
meta4@retrolemmy.com · 3 pts · 362d
Instead of being so defensive about it you could just answer the question.. Did you have so much free time you decided to try signing up for a service you had no intention of using just so you could complain about it?
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -3 pts · 362d
You don't know if I signed up for posteo after or before tryibg with proton.
You are blocked now for offrnsive behaviour and insinuations about me.
Have a good day bro, LOL
evilcultist@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 363d
A while back I tried to create an account with vpn and got notice that said something about how I couldn’t use it to validate other accounts without validating that account because other companies had threatened to label them as untrustworthy or spam.
Fizz@lemmy.nz · 6 pts · 363d
I got that same error when I was setting up my account.
XenGi@feddit.org · 5 pts · 363d
Proton always felt like a scam to me. Their claims on privacy and security are questionable at best.
Jason2357@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 363d
My issue exactly. Their marketing isn't careful, which I would expect from a security focused business.
3abas@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 363d
Their software is open source and you can verify it yourself.
XenGi@feddit.org · 4 pts · 362d
You can't verify that they actually run that on their servers.
meta4@retrolemmy.com · 5 pts · 362d
So, they operate a repo of open source code as a cover for their internal repo of completely different code?
XenGi@feddit.org · 4 pts · 362d
I'm not saying they do that. But you have to trust them that they don't do it. You can never proof it.
meta4@retrolemmy.com · 4 pts · 362d
Are there any non-self-hosted services where that's not the case?
EngineerGaming@retrolemmy.com · 1 pts · 361d
No. That's why I wouldn't trust protections that depend on something serverside, like encryption in the web client.
XenGi@feddit.org · -1 pts · 362d
No. It's an inherit compromice you have to deal with. At least with email hosting. There are services where you can proof that no one was listening in but with email thats not possible.
ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 359d
At least it is not Google shit, if nothing else.
ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 359d
That is not entirely impossible. Owner spent time in US lobbying, and tech folks that do that are often horrible, careless, and unethical people.
Taalnazi@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 358d
They should fire their pro-Trump CEO.
XenGi@feddit.org · 2 pts · 357d
Didn" t know they had one. In that case I wouldn't use them anyways.
limer@lemmy.ml · -11 pts · 363d
Now with LLMs to provide extra security (not)
umbrella@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 363d
francois@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 361d
While on dread recently I stumbled across this old post regarding issues with their onion adresses https://encryp.ch/blog/disturbing-facts-about-protonmail/
ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 359d
Goddamn. We live in a nightmare. There is someone fucking us all every goddamn second of the day.
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -1 pts · 361d
Yes, I knew this info, there is a lot of strange things with company
pheggs@feddit.org · 0 pts · 362d
that sucks, this means no more hiding metadata. However, they aren't ditching switzerland (yet) - this only happens if the government applies the new surveillance rules which is not set in stone yet.
I use pgp and host mail myself. It's not as hard, and it's by far less problematic than a lot of people make it out to be. Don't trust hosters.
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 362d
cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 362d
I generally agree with you but my current threat model allows it