My partner is a nurse here in the Northeast. Unfortunately a lot of her coworkers are Trumpies.
Most of them are practically disengaged from politics and only follow their (male) partner's political beliefs. If they're from one of the surrounding rural (white and low income) areas, the chances they're like this are higher. Not shockingly, a fair amount of their partners are cops.
It's strange and disheartening to hear about nurses she works with who flaunt that they won't get the covid vaccine, who denigrate patients with substance abuse disorder, who verbalize that they would rather not treat a trans person, and who treat black and brown folks like a different species. But it's definitely a trend in nursing culture up here.
Its especially difficult for my partner who chose this path in large part because of her acute sense of empathy. The state of healthcare is just bad here.
No no, see, they're part of the demographic that's predestined for success because this is their country, so it'll all work out for them, no matter how many things this administration does to strip them of their title, success, income, benefits, rights, and dignity.
Most of them are practically disengaged from politics and only follow their (male) partner’s political beliefs. If they’re from one of the surrounding rural (white and low income) areas, the chances they’re like this are higher. Not shockingly, a fair amount of their partners are cops.
Also, some of them have scary levels of religious fanaticism.
And males, if I'm reading the rules right. Yumminess everywhere. I wonder if any of those players get kinky with rackets... probably not, but it's a fun little thing to imagine.
I hope you dipshit Lemmy leftist kids are prepared to actually work
vote people out
not get lost down some third-party fantasy
You should take your own advice.
The US had their chance to vote this out. It's going to take a hell of a lot of anti-establishment actions from this point forward, and no, canceling your Disney+ subscription won't be enough.
They want to reduce the needed learning so they can pay people less to do the same job but pass it off as some streamlining process to address shortages. They're still going to charge the same for care but pay less to those who provide it.
Taking an actual problem and looking to address it from a capitalist view point so that line always goes up.
Making nursing school less affordable will affect the number of nurses in like 4? 6? Years. You as an octogenarian may not expect to need care that far in the future
It'll be immediate because there are certain nursing certifications that take much less. Nurses are going to lose financing for that and it'll create shortages within a year.
It’s an attack on women. Nursing has historically been one of the only accepted paths for women to make a living wage. It’s an equivalent wage to the construction or police profession that is typically male dominated. I expect to see a lot of attacks on women’s ability to be self sufficient in the coming years. Subjugation and forced birth is the goal.
“The department determined that the following programs were professional: medicine, pharmacy, dentistry, optometry, law, veterinary medicine, osteopathic medicine, podiatry, chiropractic, theology and clinical psychology. This meant that physician assistants, nurse practitioners, physical therapists and audiologist were excluded from the list.”
Theology and clinical psychology? I didn’t even know that was a career choice, let alone one I could take out a $200,000 loan for.
You'll notice most of those that "aren't professional" have a high rate of poor people going into those programs. This is the administration trying to kill upward mobility entirely.
Step one: Get into power
Step two: Crash the economy
Step Three: buy up every on the cheap whike destroying welfare and anything you want rid of.
Step four: Monopolies for the rich, corporoticracy for everyone else.
I wouldn't get to excited. It also needs have a have en effective way to validate the credentials of medical professionals. The current system is extremely inefficient and leaves great professionals out.
I want to stop being surprised but I can't imagine the sheer depth of inhumanity and monstrosity of these people, and I am someone who grew up with a lifelong hatred of Nazis and their mythic-levels of cruelty.
I feel like this is related to H1B visas. The Trump admin wants to ban them and one barrier I think was most of our nurses for hospice etc are immigrants (I'm filipino, this is known), so banning H1Bs would impact nursing. This may be their way of banning H1Bs while keeping the nurses around. Unsure of how nursing relates to the H1B program, I'm a software engineer my experience with it is from coworkers having the visas.
Its for RNs who want to become APRNs/NPs. "Professionals" meant things like doctor and lawyer, and required a grad program. It won't affect nursing as an associates (RN) or bachelor's (BSN).
That being said, Healthcare CEOs fucking LOVE them some APRNs, so this will get changed back within a year I'd bet.
MAGA is the easiest crowd to be a nurse and care for. “Here’s your ivermectin and bootstraps to pull yourself up by.” Problem solved. If they can’t get better with either hard work or horse pills then they aren’t fit to survive…
As for the rest of us, I’m keeping my dope ass mRNA vaccines thank you very much.
Agreed, but lets be real, none of them would ever set foot in a publicly available health institution. All high-end private care for the rich while we get to pay out the nose for band-aids and autism tablets.
Actually not sure how I feel about that. They simply classified it for the same caps on student loans as the rest of us, rather than the higher one for roles like doctors.
Both caps are bad, for all of us. Our college education rates are already far too low, and now we’re trying to make college more unaffordable?
But I guess I assumed a nurse’s education was similar to a four year degree, although I don’t know. Is it not? The nurse they quoted claimed 15 years of college: surely that can’t be normal. Isn’t that more than doctors get?
There’s a difference between an LPN, an RN, etc. Some nurses do have doctorates, which yeah, might be about the same amount of education that a doctor typically gets.
There’s a perception that nurses are “lesser” than doctors - but nursing is fundamentally a different skill set.
Think you're a little mixed up with your time lines :). ADN is a 2 year degree. BSN is a 4 year degree. RN is a license, no specific timeline (other than having to obtain ADN or BSN to be eligible to sit for the NCLEX).
Again, y’all are are getting too hung up on the label. No one is saying they’re not critical. “Professional” in this case seems to mean “qualifies for more student loans, like Doctors”, instead of “qualifies for student loans like everyone else”. I’m not saying nurses aren’t professional, I’m saying it looks like their education costs more similar to mine than to a doctors.
AND Y’ALL ARE MISSING THE POINT. Everyone getting hung up on whether this insults the people forming the core of our healthcare system are missing the part where they’re limiting student loans for everyone
Nor should a doctor "lift a fucking finger doing bedside work." There are a lot fewer of them than nurses and they need to diagnose and manage multiple teams that are taking care of patients. No doctor has time to come and tuck you in and bring a glass of ice chips.
Most nurses also don't have the time. It's usually nursing assistants bringing you ice chips. Nurses do a lot of what many people might imagine to be a doctor's purview, or for which they might not realize the complexity and importance. E.g., it's not a doctor carefully cleaning and dressing your wounds so that you don't develop a systemic infection, nor is the doctor watching your vital signs or adjusting intravenous medication infusion rates while your organs balance on a knife's edge, nor is it a doctor who pumps you full of epinephrine to restart your heart after you've slipped off the mortal coil. Doctors diagnose and order the treatment, but nurses carry it out, and that too requires specialized knowledge and skills which necessitate intensive education. Ask any nurse, and they'll tell you that nursing school was one of the hardest experiences of their life.
But that's all kind of irrelevant to the issue, which is loan eligibility for graduate-level education for nurses. That is, for roles like nurse practitioners and nurse anesthetists, whose job functions and responsibilities significantly overlap with those of medical doctors. Much of the conversation in this thread, and the article itself, confuses that. Associate and bachelor level nursing degrees (the degrees held by most nurses, and the nurses doing the bedside care) weren't eligible for the loans this rule impacts in the first place.
There’s only a shortage of doctors because the AMA restricts the number of medical colleges so that the number of doctors is artificially kept low so that they continue to make super high wages.
Even progressive countries with excellent medical programs have a chronic shortage of doctors these days. So it's not nearly that as much as you want to think.
Learning medicine is a long and hard road and there are so many fine details you need to be perfect at. And nothing less than perfection is expected from your teachers, peers, and patients. And even yourself.
Actually, the problem is the number of residencies. Once you graduate from medical school, you MUST complete an accredited residency program to be able to practice independently. The number of residency programs is controlled by Congress because residencies are funded through Medicare, and the last substantial increase in the number of residencies was when they added 1000 more in the Covid Omnibus bill.
It's actually a growing crisis because more medical schools are opening and existing ones are increasing their class sizes, but the number of residencies isn't keeping pace. This means that more and more people are going to be medical graduates with no way of obtaining a medical license without a residency and therefore no way to pay off their student loans. There's a couple stories every year about medical graduates that couldn't get into residency or couldn't complete residency that end up dying by suicide, but it gets pretty effectively swept under the rug.
15 years of experience, it seems, and since I'm pretty sure most nurses aren't in a union, what do you want to bet her wages/cost of living ratio actually went down over those 15 years. A relative of mine is in the same business of IV hydration, and it's definitely because the potential money is way better than her other options.
I think you've missed the point. You seem to think that the changes wouldn't affect anything. But if they wouldn't change anything, then why are they being made? So in reality, you're arguing against reality. And you're arguing against facts that people have provided you.
Normalizing and celebrating Genocide, calling nurses not professional ⚖️
Fuck, you're right. Establishing genocide as the norm fully supported and celebrated by Democrats is the better option in this scenario. Fuck Palestinian children, let them die horrible deaths as long as your nurses don't get called unprofessional by Trump. This is the worst timeline, not the one where liberals deep throat genocide while pretending to care about others in the same breath.
This is misgovernance in the extreme, but the following is not the best quote to support that point, emphasis mine:
One nurse posted through the IVs By The Seas TikTok account, a clinic offering mobile IV hydration and aesthetic services in New Jersey: "10 years of schooling... $210k in student loan debt... 15 years of ER and Trauma experience which included preventing physicians from making error at 3 a.m. and now... my degree isn't considered a professional degree. Cool."
It’s cool that they have a nurse doing that, but hangover cures and spa treatments don’t seem like a great use for those ten years of schooling (now, the ER and trauma experience is obviously valuable). No shade to her, and I completely understand that an entire career working as an ER and trauma nurse would be demoralizing, but this is a perfect snippet for people who support rolling reimbursement back to quote to show that it’s not really needed.
Sure let's cut back the amount of available nurses to an already struggling count of nurses why not. May as well just say "don't be a nurse, we don't value it." Getting the same treatment as teachers now it seems like.
They once tried to prove that DNPs (Doctorate of Nurse Practitioner) was just as good as an MD or DO education. They did this by taking the top DNP grads from the best programs and gave them a dumbed down version of the easiest part of the medical license exam, and only 40% passed it.
For context, to get a medical license, a physician has to have passed Steps 1-3 of the USMLE (US Medical License Exam) or Levels 1-3 of COMLEX (Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Exam) to be eligible to apply for a medical license. Step/Level 2 is usually considered the hardest one of the three, and Step/Level 3 is the longest exam (2 full days), but generally considered to be the easiest. This DNP exam took the easiest 20% of questions from Step 3 and made a half-length version of the exam....and 60% of the DNPs still failed it.
The NP/DNP education is almost entirely algorithm-based and doesn't meaningfully get into the anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, and pharmacology that the first 2 years of medical school are devoted to. I have seen NPs miss life-threatening diagnoses because they were rare diseases that don't come up outside of those first 2 years of drinking from a firehose of textbooks in medical school. Their education just isn't long enough or in-depth enough to actually be equivalent to an MD or DO degree.
Also, MDs and DOs have almost 4000 hours of supervised medical practice where a physician is checking their work and directly observing or guiding their clinical experience before finishing medical school. Residency is, at minimum, another 8000 to 10000 hours of supervised practice in the specialties that only require 3 years of residency (it ranges from 3 to 9 years based on specialty).
NPs don't have any standardized requirements for supervised practice to get their licenses and most programs only require 1000 hours or less of shadowing where they are just observing a licensed NP practice and not actually doing anything hands-on themselves.... And they try to argue that this education is sufficient for them to be equal to physicians. There are some NPs who are amazing providers, but they're usually the ones that were bedside nurses for 10+ years before going back to school for their NP license. The newer NPs that are going straight through from their BSN without any actual experience are the really dangerous ones.
TO BE CLEAR: I love the nurses I work with and I value their work and their input immensely. I was an EMT/ER tech before med school and it's really sad when nurses are so confused when I help them clean up patients or reposition or whatever as a med student because most physicians and medical students don't stop to help the nurses clean up poop. You can always tell which physicians have never had to clean up poop before, and I try very hard not to be like them.
The issue is that it affects things like student loan forgiveness, which often requires people to remain employed as a professional in their field of study for a certain period of time after receiving their degree.
113 Comments
13igTyme@piefed.social · 176 pts · 275d
That's fine. I'll ask my wife and her friends, a mix of NPs, PAs, and RNs, if they recognize the current administration as professional.
Answer will be no and they can kick rocks.
This is also clearly be design to cut peoples access to education as well as reduce the total number of healthcare workers. A double whammy.
joekar1990@lemmy.world · 71 pts · 275d
It's also targeting fields that are usually a majority of women on top of the access.
Cocodapuf@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 274d
There are also a huge number of minorities and immigrants, especially if you're including CNAs.
jwiggler@slrpnk.net · 68 pts · 275d
My partner is a nurse here in the Northeast. Unfortunately a lot of her coworkers are Trumpies.
Most of them are practically disengaged from politics and only follow their (male) partner's political beliefs. If they're from one of the surrounding rural (white and low income) areas, the chances they're like this are higher. Not shockingly, a fair amount of their partners are cops.
It's strange and disheartening to hear about nurses she works with who flaunt that they won't get the covid vaccine, who denigrate patients with substance abuse disorder, who verbalize that they would rather not treat a trans person, and who treat black and brown folks like a different species. But it's definitely a trend in nursing culture up here.
Its especially difficult for my partner who chose this path in large part because of her acute sense of empathy. The state of healthcare is just bad here.
shawn1122@sh.itjust.works · 19 pts · 275d
slams buzzer ER nurse.
XeroxCool@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 275d
No no, see, they're part of the demographic that's predestined for success because this is their country, so it'll all work out for them, no matter how many things this administration does to strip them of their title, success, income, benefits, rights, and dignity.
FosterMolasses@leminal.space · 2 pts · 270d
Unfortunately, they forgot about the *male part of "Straight White Christian Male" apparently. Wish I felt sorry for them.
lechekaflan@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 274d
Also, some of them have scary levels of religious fanaticism.
FosterMolasses@leminal.space · 1 pts · 270d
So leopards ate their face
Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 11 pts · 275d
Nurse Practitioners, Pennsylvanias, and Registered Nurses? 🤔
reptar@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 275d
No Pants, Partially Attired, and Rarely Nude
Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 275d
So basically most female Wimbledon contestants?
Imadethis@lemmynsfw.com · 2 pts · 275d
And males, if I'm reading the rules right. Yumminess everywhere. I wonder if any of those players get kinky with rackets... probably not, but it's a fun little thing to imagine.
Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 274d
Depends on whether or not you consider shorts to be pants. Personally, I do 🤷
greyhathero@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 275d
I assume they mean physicians assistant
CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 274d
And RN usually means "registered nurse".
utopianfiat@lemmy.world · 99 pts · 275d
Fellas, is it good when I stop funding nursing education in the middle of a nurse shortage
ameancow@lemmy.world · 34 pts · 275d
FosterMolasses@leminal.space · 1 pts · 270d
You should take your own advice.
The US had their chance to vote this out. It's going to take a hell of a lot of anti-establishment actions from this point forward, and no, canceling your Disney+ subscription won't be enough.
Seaguy05@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 275d
They want to reduce the needed learning so they can pay people less to do the same job but pass it off as some streamlining process to address shortages. They're still going to charge the same for care but pay less to those who provide it.
Taking an actual problem and looking to address it from a capitalist view point so that line always goes up.
sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz · 9 pts · 275d
Is it good when i, a crumbling octogenarian vote away all the systems keeping me tethered to this mortal form?
AA5B@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 275d
Making nursing school less affordable will affect the number of nurses in like 4? 6? Years. You as an octogenarian may not expect to need care that far in the future
utopianfiat@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 273d
It'll be immediate because there are certain nursing certifications that take much less. Nurses are going to lose financing for that and it'll create shortages within a year.
Stern@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 275d
Just as good as deporting immigrant truckers during a ongoing trucker shortage. Big brains in the White House, clearly.
ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 274d
Likely it was done due to some promise from an AI robotics firm or something.
Formfiller@lemmy.world · 83 pts · 275d
It’s an attack on women. Nursing has historically been one of the only accepted paths for women to make a living wage. It’s an equivalent wage to the construction or police profession that is typically male dominated. I expect to see a lot of attacks on women’s ability to be self sufficient in the coming years. Subjugation and forced birth is the goal.
CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 274d
Probably has a lot to do with their decades-long assault on teaching, too.
Formfiller@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 274d
Agreed. Teaching and nursing also usually lead to student debt unlike construction and police jobs
LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 274d
Haven't looked at what nurses made in 20 years, but why do I feel like I'm going to be sad when I find out they make the same as police.
Entropy_Pyre@lemmy.ca · 68 pts · 275d
“The department determined that the following programs were professional: medicine, pharmacy, dentistry, optometry, law, veterinary medicine, osteopathic medicine, podiatry, chiropractic, theology and clinical psychology. This meant that physician assistants, nurse practitioners, physical therapists and audiologist were excluded from the list.”
Theology and clinical psychology? I didn’t even know that was a career choice, let alone one I could take out a $200,000 loan for.
aceshigh@lemmy.world · 69 pts · 275d
lol chiropractor and theology are professionals.
raman_klogius@ani.social · 36 pts · 275d
Quacklifications by a quack administration
mysticpickle@lemmy.ca · 27 pts · 275d
Cocodapuf@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 274d
It's a career. But you can age out of it, like pro sports.
Doesn't pay as well as pro sports though...
BoobaAwooga@lemmynsfw.com · 37 pts · 275d
Clinical psychologists are PhD level therapists and are very good at what they do generally
cowfodder@lemmy.world · 44 pts · 275d
I think they were pointing out the lack of an Oxford comma, which makes "theology and clinical psychology" seem like one thing instead of two.
BoobaAwooga@lemmynsfw.com · 11 pts · 275d
Oh you right, my b
cygnus@lemmy.ca · -21 pts · 275d
Both are based on holy books with no measurable scientific basis, so I guess it tracks.
protist@mander.xyz · 15 pts · 275d
Butthurt by the subjectivity of life, this one
cygnus@lemmy.ca · -8 pts · 275d
Is that in the DSM?
protist@mander.xyz · 5 pts · 275d
Lemme guess, schizophrenia isn't real, huh
cygnus@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 275d
That would be treated by a psychiatrist, not a psychologist.
Hazor@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 275d
So my eyes, feet, and soul need professional care, but not my ears? Wild.
Mirshe@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 275d
You'll notice most of those that "aren't professional" have a high rate of poor people going into those programs. This is the administration trying to kill upward mobility entirely.
5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 46 pts · 275d
biggest employer in many states btw, it's like they want the economy to crash
_Nico198X_@europe.pub · 15 pts · 274d
they do. they want to rule the ashes.
chiliedogg@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 274d
Lucifer: Paradise Lost
abbiistabbii@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 10 pts · 274d
Step one: Get into power Step two: Crash the economy Step Three: buy up every on the cheap whike destroying welfare and anything you want rid of. Step four: Monopolies for the rich, corporoticracy for everyone else.
cv_octavio@piefed.ca · 32 pts · 275d
Witchfire@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 275d
Hell, Canada NEEDS medical professionals
Randomgal@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 274d
I wouldn't get to excited. It also needs have a have en effective way to validate the credentials of medical professionals. The current system is extremely inefficient and leaves great professionals out.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 274d
Yet, we elect right winger MAGA types who refuse to fund them.
ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online · 30 pts · 275d
I want to stop being surprised but I can't imagine the sheer depth of inhumanity and monstrosity of these people, and I am someone who grew up with a lifelong hatred of Nazis and their mythic-levels of cruelty.
dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 29 pts · 274d
I feel like this is related to H1B visas. The Trump admin wants to ban them and one barrier I think was most of our nurses for hospice etc are immigrants (I'm filipino, this is known), so banning H1Bs would impact nursing. This may be their way of banning H1Bs while keeping the nurses around. Unsure of how nursing relates to the H1B program, I'm a software engineer my experience with it is from coworkers having the visas.
n0respect@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 274d
I'm sure this affects student loans and education grants as well.
Alaik@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 274d
Its for RNs who want to become APRNs/NPs. "Professionals" meant things like doctor and lawyer, and required a grad program. It won't affect nursing as an associates (RN) or bachelor's (BSN).
That being said, Healthcare CEOs fucking LOVE them some APRNs, so this will get changed back within a year I'd bet.
Gammelfisch@lemmy.world · 29 pts · 275d
When the MAGA shit stains visit the ER, I hope the first nurse they see is a full blown liberal.
Buffalox@lemmy.world · 38 pts · 275d
Why do you want them to have qualified care?
No give them a MAGA nurse, and tell the nurse it's a liberal, and let them eat each other.
baldingpudenda@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 275d
They gonna get saline instead of actual meds. Patient is gonna hobble out cause the lib nurse is gonna poison them with covid boosters and Tylenol.
mean_bean279@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 275d
MAGA is the easiest crowd to be a nurse and care for. “Here’s your ivermectin and bootstraps to pull yourself up by.” Problem solved. If they can’t get better with either hard work or horse pills then they aren’t fit to survive…
As for the rest of us, I’m keeping my dope ass mRNA vaccines thank you very much.
Gammelfisch@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 274d
Damn good point! +1
PKscope@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 275d
Agreed, but lets be real, none of them would ever set foot in a publicly available health institution. All high-end private care for the rich while we get to pay out the nose for band-aids and autism tablets.
JasonDJ@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 274d
I think they'd relish the idea of a liberal wiping their ass.
But that's just the CNAs. Not a real nurse. Not like they'd know the difference.
bitjunkie@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 274d
I hope he gets a nurse with a fake degree the next time they have to rush his fat ass to Walter Reed.
PeacefulForest@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 275d
cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca · 13 pts · 275d
Come to Canada eh?
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 274d
There is unemployment already for CDN nurses.
cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 274d
Don't we have a shortage...?
PeacefulForest@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 274d
cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 274d
Of course it is... 🤦♂️
PeacefulForest@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 274d
_Nico198X_@europe.pub · 7 pts · 274d
try to go abroad where nurses are still valued.
AA5B@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 275d
Actually not sure how I feel about that. They simply classified it for the same caps on student loans as the rest of us, rather than the higher one for roles like doctors.
Both caps are bad, for all of us. Our college education rates are already far too low, and now we’re trying to make college more unaffordable?
But I guess I assumed a nurse’s education was similar to a four year degree, although I don’t know. Is it not? The nurse they quoted claimed 15 years of college: surely that can’t be normal. Isn’t that more than doctors get?
andros_rex@lemmy.world · 33 pts · 275d
There’s a difference between an LPN, an RN, etc. Some nurses do have doctorates, which yeah, might be about the same amount of education that a doctor typically gets.
There’s a perception that nurses are “lesser” than doctors - but nursing is fundamentally a different skill set.
PeacefulForest@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 275d
mooseyontheloosy@lemmy.zip · 8 pts · 275d
Think you're a little mixed up with your time lines :). ADN is a 2 year degree. BSN is a 4 year degree. RN is a license, no specific timeline (other than having to obtain ADN or BSN to be eligible to sit for the NCLEX).
PeacefulForest@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 274d
AA5B@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 274d
Again, y’all are are getting too hung up on the label. No one is saying they’re not critical. “Professional” in this case seems to mean “qualifies for more student loans, like Doctors”, instead of “qualifies for student loans like everyone else”. I’m not saying nurses aren’t professional, I’m saying it looks like their education costs more similar to mine than to a doctors.
AND Y’ALL ARE MISSING THE POINT. Everyone getting hung up on whether this insults the people forming the core of our healthcare system are missing the part where they’re limiting student loans for everyone
PeacefulForest@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 274d
AA5B@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 274d
So new limits on student loans
Even public universities are more than that everywhere (a few like Massachusetts has means tested free tuition)
Only the very wealthy will be able to afford private school
Given the loans taken out by doctors I know, that’s not even close
Bluewing@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 274d
Nor should a doctor "lift a fucking finger doing bedside work." There are a lot fewer of them than nurses and they need to diagnose and manage multiple teams that are taking care of patients. No doctor has time to come and tuck you in and bring a glass of ice chips.
Hazor@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 274d
Most nurses also don't have the time. It's usually nursing assistants bringing you ice chips. Nurses do a lot of what many people might imagine to be a doctor's purview, or for which they might not realize the complexity and importance. E.g., it's not a doctor carefully cleaning and dressing your wounds so that you don't develop a systemic infection, nor is the doctor watching your vital signs or adjusting intravenous medication infusion rates while your organs balance on a knife's edge, nor is it a doctor who pumps you full of epinephrine to restart your heart after you've slipped off the mortal coil. Doctors diagnose and order the treatment, but nurses carry it out, and that too requires specialized knowledge and skills which necessitate intensive education. Ask any nurse, and they'll tell you that nursing school was one of the hardest experiences of their life.
But that's all kind of irrelevant to the issue, which is loan eligibility for graduate-level education for nurses. That is, for roles like nurse practitioners and nurse anesthetists, whose job functions and responsibilities significantly overlap with those of medical doctors. Much of the conversation in this thread, and the article itself, confuses that. Associate and bachelor level nursing degrees (the degrees held by most nurses, and the nurses doing the bedside care) weren't eligible for the loans this rule impacts in the first place.
PeacefulForest@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 274d
FlyingCircus@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 274d
There’s only a shortage of doctors because the AMA restricts the number of medical colleges so that the number of doctors is artificially kept low so that they continue to make super high wages.
Bluewing@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 274d
Even progressive countries with excellent medical programs have a chronic shortage of doctors these days. So it's not nearly that as much as you want to think.
Learning medicine is a long and hard road and there are so many fine details you need to be perfect at. And nothing less than perfection is expected from your teachers, peers, and patients. And even yourself.
medgremlin@midwest.social · 2 pts · 274d
Actually, the problem is the number of residencies. Once you graduate from medical school, you MUST complete an accredited residency program to be able to practice independently. The number of residency programs is controlled by Congress because residencies are funded through Medicare, and the last substantial increase in the number of residencies was when they added 1000 more in the Covid Omnibus bill.
It's actually a growing crisis because more medical schools are opening and existing ones are increasing their class sizes, but the number of residencies isn't keeping pace. This means that more and more people are going to be medical graduates with no way of obtaining a medical license without a residency and therefore no way to pay off their student loans. There's a couple stories every year about medical graduates that couldn't get into residency or couldn't complete residency that end up dying by suicide, but it gets pretty effectively swept under the rug.
Imadethis@lemmynsfw.com · 5 pts · 275d
15 years of experience, it seems, and since I'm pretty sure most nurses aren't in a union, what do you want to bet her wages/cost of living ratio actually went down over those 15 years. A relative of mine is in the same business of IV hydration, and it's definitely because the potential money is way better than her other options.
fodor@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 274d
I think you've missed the point. You seem to think that the changes wouldn't affect anything. But if they wouldn't change anything, then why are they being made? So in reality, you're arguing against reality. And you're arguing against facts that people have provided you.
AA5B@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 274d
Nope I’m arguing that the overall change to cut financial aid is a bad one, and which category nursing falls into is a distraction
MourningDove@lemmy.zip · 15 pts · 275d
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 275d
"They're the same!" 🙄
MourningDove@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 275d
3abas@lemmy.world · -11 pts · 275d
Normalizing and celebrating Genocide, calling nurses not professional ⚖️
Fuck, you're right. Establishing genocide as the norm fully supported and celebrated by Democrats is the better option in this scenario. Fuck Palestinian children, let them die horrible deaths as long as your nurses don't get called unprofessional by Trump. This is the worst timeline, not the one where liberals deep throat genocide while pretending to care about others in the same breath.
You're a bad person, and you should feel bad.
MourningDove@lemmy.zip · 11 pts · 275d
_Nico198X_@europe.pub · 4 pts · 274d
"I love Genocide!" -"MourningDove"
"Why would MourningDove say this?" -Tankies
MourningDove@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 274d
_Nico198X_@europe.pub · 2 pts · 274d
i live to serve, my friend. 😆 i also hate when they do that.
MourningDove@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 274d
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 274d
Thank God Palestinian children are doing fine now.
Proprietary_Blend@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 275d
So it's better than that now right? Right??
idiomaddict@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 275d
This is misgovernance in the extreme, but the following is not the best quote to support that point, emphasis mine:
It’s cool that they have a nurse doing that, but hangover cures and spa treatments don’t seem like a great use for those ten years of schooling (now, the ER and trauma experience is obviously valuable). No shade to her, and I completely understand that an entire career working as an ER and trauma nurse would be demoralizing, but this is a perfect snippet for people who support rolling reimbursement back to quote to show that it’s not really needed.
demizerone@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 274d
Don't fuck with the nurses, bro.
abigscaryhobo@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 274d
Sure let's cut back the amount of available nurses to an already struggling count of nurses why not. May as well just say "don't be a nurse, we don't value it." Getting the same treatment as teachers now it seems like.
stringere@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 274d
If they make government work they can't keep lying about how it does not work.
Weel, they're never going to stop lying.
Reygle@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 274d
Minutes since a trump friend/sycophant said something incomprehensibly stupid: 0
Sunshine@piefed.ca · 6 pts · 275d
Time to move to Canada!
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 4 pts · 275d
Amateur Degree. Gotta go full doctor if you wanna be pro.
retreaux@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 275d
/s, right?
watson387@sopuli.xyz · 7 pts · 275d
Obviously
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 3 pts · 274d
Shit's absolutely fucked when the sarcasm in my initial comment isn't obvious to everyone reading it.
watson387@sopuli.xyz · 2 pts · 273d
Agreed.
retreaux@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 272d
I felt dumb for checking but clarification is never a bad way to roll hahaha
medgremlin@midwest.social · 1 pts · 274d
They once tried to prove that DNPs (Doctorate of Nurse Practitioner) was just as good as an MD or DO education. They did this by taking the top DNP grads from the best programs and gave them a dumbed down version of the easiest part of the medical license exam, and only 40% passed it.
For context, to get a medical license, a physician has to have passed Steps 1-3 of the USMLE (US Medical License Exam) or Levels 1-3 of COMLEX (Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Exam) to be eligible to apply for a medical license. Step/Level 2 is usually considered the hardest one of the three, and Step/Level 3 is the longest exam (2 full days), but generally considered to be the easiest. This DNP exam took the easiest 20% of questions from Step 3 and made a half-length version of the exam....and 60% of the DNPs still failed it.
The NP/DNP education is almost entirely algorithm-based and doesn't meaningfully get into the anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, and pharmacology that the first 2 years of medical school are devoted to. I have seen NPs miss life-threatening diagnoses because they were rare diseases that don't come up outside of those first 2 years of drinking from a firehose of textbooks in medical school. Their education just isn't long enough or in-depth enough to actually be equivalent to an MD or DO degree.
Also, MDs and DOs have almost 4000 hours of supervised medical practice where a physician is checking their work and directly observing or guiding their clinical experience before finishing medical school. Residency is, at minimum, another 8000 to 10000 hours of supervised practice in the specialties that only require 3 years of residency (it ranges from 3 to 9 years based on specialty).
NPs don't have any standardized requirements for supervised practice to get their licenses and most programs only require 1000 hours or less of shadowing where they are just observing a licensed NP practice and not actually doing anything hands-on themselves.... And they try to argue that this education is sufficient for them to be equal to physicians. There are some NPs who are amazing providers, but they're usually the ones that were bedside nurses for 10+ years before going back to school for their NP license. The newer NPs that are going straight through from their BSN without any actual experience are the really dangerous ones.
TO BE CLEAR: I love the nurses I work with and I value their work and their input immensely. I was an EMT/ER tech before med school and it's really sad when nurses are so confused when I help them clean up patients or reposition or whatever as a med student because most physicians and medical students don't stop to help the nurses clean up poop. You can always tell which physicians have never had to clean up poop before, and I try very hard not to be like them.
maxxadrenaline@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 274d
Welp maybe this is his way of saying he doesn’t need a nurse
Sam_Bass@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 274d
Next time he has to go to a clinic for a checkup all the nurses should be out of the office
mriormro@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 274d
Nor is architecture and engineering is up in the air.
Itdidnttrickledown@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 274d
We know they are so who cares what those trash humans think?
mic_check_one_two@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 274d
The issue is that it affects things like student loan forgiveness, which often requires people to remain employed as a professional in their field of study for a certain period of time after receiving their degree.
Itdidnttrickledown@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 274d
Like trump is going to forgive a loan if someone is poor.
y2imm@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 274d
Knew it, glad I dumped my US license and saved some $$$
olympicyes@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 274d
What does that even mean? You either have a student loan or you don’t.