To go deeper: some animals act curiously, others with fear, but only a few of them understand what the mirror does and use it to inspect themselves.
To go deeper: some animals act curiously, others with fear, but only a few of them understand what the mirror does and use it to inspect themselves.
61 Comments
minnow@lemmy.world · 85 pts · 187d
The mirror test is frequently cited as a means of testing sentience.
OP I think you hit the nail on the head.
Aerosol3215@piefed.ca · 14 pts · 187d
Based on the fact that most people don't see their interaction with the LLM as gazing into the mirror, am I being led to believe that most people are not sentient???
Zorque@lemmy.world · 25 pts · 187d
Based entirely on the opinions of people on niche social media platforms, yes.
Garbagio@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 186d
schnurrito@discuss.tchncs.de · 61 pts · 187d
Except it's not my reflection, it's a reflection of millions if not billions of humans.
Carnelian@lemmy.world · 38 pts · 187d
Except it’s not their reflection, it’s a string of phrases presented to you based partly on the commonality of similar phrases appearing next to one another in the training data, and partly on mysterious black box modifications! Fun!
ameancow@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 187d
truthfultemporarily@feddit.org · 25 pts · 187d
Just think about the fact llms are basically trying to simulate reddit posts and then think again about using them.
callyral@pawb.social · 22 pts · 187d
Related: is there a name for "question bias"?
Like asking ChatGPT if "is x good?", and it would reply "Yes, x is good." but if you ask "is x bad?" it would reply "Yes, x is bad, you're right."
TheOctonaut@mander.xyz · 18 pts · 187d
It's just a leading question.
yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 9 pts · 187d
It is not a leading question. The answer just happens to be meaningless.
Asking whether something is good is the vast majority of human concern. Most of our rational activity is fundamentally evaluative.
Horsecook@sh.itjust.works · 17 pts · 187d
certified_expert@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 187d
I disagree about the dichotomy. I think you can (1) understand what LLMs actually are. (2) See the value of such technology.
In both cases being factual (not being deceived) and not being malicious (not attempting to deceive others)
I think a reasonable use of these tools is as a "sidekick" (you being the main character). Some tasks can be assigned to it so you save some time, but the thinking and the actual mental model of what is being done shall always be your responsibility.
For example, LLMs are good as an interface to quickly lookup within manuals, books, clarify specific concepts, or find the proper terms for a vague idea (so that you can research the topic using the appropriate terms)
Of course, this is just an opinion. 100% open to discussion.
BanMe@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 186d
I think of it like a nonhuman character, like a character in a book I'm reading. Is it real? No. Is it compelling? Yes. Do I know exactly what it'll do next? No. Is it serving a purpose in my life? Yes.
It effectively attends to my requests and even feelings but I do not reciprocate that. I've got decades of sci-fi leading me up to this point, the idea of interacting with humanoid robots or AI has been around since my childhood, but it's never involved attending to the machine's feelings or needs.
We need to sort out the boundaries on this, the delusional people who are having "relationships" with AI, getting a social or other emotional fix from it. But that doesn't mean we have to categorize anyone who uses it as moronic. It's a tool.
Etterra@discuss.online · 3 pts · 187d
Wait, let's hear OP out.
naught101@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 187d
Marketing is a valid use for AI (because bullshit was always thewod anyway)
GuyIncognito@lemmy.ca · 14 pts · 187d
I checked with that other gorilla who lives in the bathroom and he says you're wrong
certified_expert@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 187d
lol, Is that the same gorilla that you see in other bathrooms? Or (like me) you meet a new gorilla every time you wash your hands?
GuyIncognito@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 187d
I think he's the same guy. I used to try to bust him up but he just kept multiplying into more pieces and then coming back whole every time I saw a new mirror, so I eventually gave up
lowspeedchase@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 12 pts · 187d
This is a great one - although I never see animals worshipping the mirror.
Rippin_Farts_And_Or_Breaking_Hearts@lemmy.org · 9 pts · 187d
I've got a duck that prefers to dance in front of a chrome bumper or glass door where he can see his reflection than to go after any potential mates. Possibly he's worshipping the mirror. Possibly he's just really vain.
gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 187d
Sounds like he’s ducking handsome
Rippin_Farts_And_Or_Breaking_Hearts@lemmy.org · 4 pts · 187d
He is actually. When he washes himself he's blinding white. And when he dances he gets a little feather pompadour on the top of his head.
lowspeedchase@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 7 pts · 187d
Nothing wrong with a handsome duck taking a little self affirmation time - he knows his value, he can't look away.
Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 187d
Your duck:
Hux@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 187d
I love the idea of a bunch of woodland creatures (completely unaware of what mirrors are) investing heavily—and aggressively—in mirrors and mirror-related technology.
lowspeedchase@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 187d
Squirrels (lemmings) pooling all of their nuts at the alter, lol.
Hux@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 187d
Investor Squirrel 1: “All you have to do is gather your acorns right here, and they will instantly double in value!”
Investor Squirrel 2: “Bro’, we’re so sentient!!!”
gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 187d
Or forming romantic attachments to the mirror
Wilco@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 187d
Uhmm ... you never had a pet bird Im guessing?
Seeing all bird masturbate up against a mirror is just par for the course when you have bird pets. Its gonna be either a mirror, a favorite toy ... or you.
ameancow@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 187d
lowspeedchase@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 187d
Ooofff... Good call
ameancow@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 187d
LurkingLuddite@piefed.social · 10 pts · 186d
ELIZA effect
cypherpunks@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 186d
from page 7 of Joseph Weizenbaum's Computer Power and Human Reason: From Judgement to Calculation (1976):
a pdf of the whole book is available here
Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 187d
Huh.....so what you're saying is that mirrors are actually AI.
THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE!!! EVERYBODY COVER YOUR MIRRORS!!!
Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 187d
Laughs in vampire
XiELEd@piefed.social · 1 pts · 176d
Unironically in certain cultures there is a superstition that you should cover your mirrors at night
mriormro@lemmy.zip · 9 pts · 186d
I,too, like pulling random shit from my ass.
certified_expert@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 186d
Hahah, yeah, maybe I am doing that. that's why it is a shower thought, not a research paper proposal.
The thought comes from my (kind or recent) study of the algebra/calculus under LLMs (at least the feedforward and backpropagation part of them)
The interesting part is that my ass is non-differentiable at x=0:
Sunschein@piefed.social · 7 pts · 187d
SchwertImStein@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 187d
Annihilation?
Sunschein@piefed.social · 2 pts · 186d
Yeah. Figured it was a good visual representation of seeing an AI version of ourselves in a mirror.
Ironfacebuster@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 186d
My dog used to stare at me through mirrors, so what does that mean for her intelligence? Hyper intelligent. Red heelers will take over the world.
CIA_chatbot@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 187d
I find this kind of Anti AI Sentience bigotry horrible!
certified_expert@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 187d
Interesting take. Could you elaborate?
My post comes from the study of the algebra and stats that enable LLMs (well, part of it. i am not done with the "attention".
CIA_chatbot@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 187d
I was making a joke based on my username
woop_woop@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 187d
If I understand your statement correctly, only the most intelligent creatures would understand that LLM's are themselves?
certified_expert@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 187d
But they are a reflexion of ourselves. If you look at the algebra and stats underneath, you'll realize that they spit out whatever it is in us
lost_faith@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 187d
And here I am practising my smile in the mirror (like that golden retriever)
Artisian@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 183d
Just noting that the mirror test is a bad way of studying theory of mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#Criticism
It's interesting as a silly and absurd way humans used to demean other species. But I think it says a lot more about those who use it than the animals.
certified_expert@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 181d
Interesting!
lemmie689@lemmy.sdf.org · 2 pts · 187d
My dog doesn't pay any attention to mirrors, or llms.
Supervisor194@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 187d
False. My reflection can't tell me that pressing the Steam button and X will bring up the keyboard on Steam Deck's desktop mode.
lennee@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 187d
pressing and holding the steam button tells u every steam shortcut
CovfefeKills@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 187d
Deep thoughts
flandish@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 187d
the “mirror stage” by lacan is worth looking into here but no, I don’t think humans automatically think the llm has a sort of reified other, but as we get past an uncanny valley and into generations growing up with entire personal histories in an llm - I can absolutely see that happening.
Rhaedas@fedia.io · 4 pts · 187d
I think most people using them know that there's not something there, and yet when using it they'll still act as there is. Even giving it that benefit of doubt in what it outputs as valid, as if it's from another person, maybe even one who knows more than they do. So it's a gray area of "not believing".
SuDmit@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 187d
Continuing on "there's not something there", what about theater analogy to llm's? Usually people know it's all act, but if actors play too good, you immerse. And it's focus is not the truth, it tells the story.
Abyssian@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 187d
Except when you leave several LLMs able to communicate with one another they will, on their own, with no instructions, including creating their own unique social norms.
https://neurosciencenews.com/ai-llm-social-norms-28928/
certified_expert@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 187d
This is nothing else than the reflexion I am talking about. It is not a reflexion of you, the person chatting with the bot, but an "average" reflexion of what humanity has expressed in the data llms have been trained on.
If a mirror is placed in front of another mirror, the "infinite tunnel" only exists in the mind of the observer.
Abyssian@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 186d
Neuroscience News isn't a conspiracy rag. It's an article summarizing a research paper, which they link to. So many of you don't bother to read actual research and instead repeat whatever you've seen online about how things work. More parrot than the AI.
certified_expert@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 186d
I indeed have not read the link you shared. However, I am not discrediting your comment or source. I apologize if it came across with a hostile tone. On the contrary, thanks for commenting on my post with an interesting article.
My intent is not "parroting" AI-bad. The original post and my follow up comments are the result of... well, a shower. (I am a CS researcher myself, and I have been studying AI fundamentals for the last month)
My point is that the behavior you mention may as well be also part of the "reflexion" of the human behavior. After all, it is just text, attention, feedforward, and repeat on human text. We tend to create "conventions" when we talk: OP, TL;DR, IMHO, ELI5... are some examples of little agreements we take to compress information. We, indirectly reward that behavior. It makes sense that a program that detects and replicates human behavior will also pick that up.
In any case. Thanks for the comment, cheers!
SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org · 4 pts · 187d
No.
Abyssian@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 186d
The article is summarizing a research paper, which it links to. Neuroscience News isn't a conspiracy rag.
JcbAzPx@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 186d
That's basically a very advanced flea circus.