The optional birthDate field gives other projects a standardized data source for age verification compliance.
Systemd’s New Feature Brings Age Verification Option to Linux
https://itsfoss.com/news/systemd-age-verification/
https://itsfoss.com/news/systemd-age-verification/
The optional birthDate field gives other projects a standardized data source for age verification compliance.
92 Comments
Supercrunchy@programming.dev · 102 pts · 136d
Of all terrible proposals coming up in this period, I'm still more-or-less ok with this system because the administrator is still in full control to set whatever date they want, and the field is entirely optional.
They call it "age verification" in the aricle, but there's no 3rd party "verification" whatsoever. It's just a field for the user birth date saved in the user metadata. This is IMHO acceptable because it doesn't force anybody to provide IDs or personal information to some random shady company.
I think calling it "age verification" is a bit confusing and will make people unhappy by default, but might be a smart move to make it compliant with the new laws coming out in this period (the user age was "verified" by the system administrator, after all).
pulsewidth@lemmy.world · 28 pts · 136d
Yep. Its honestly mild as hell.
Essentially legislation that says:
Its just a standardized system that should have been done ages ago, but was not a priority for standards orgs, so none stepped up - so legislation appeared.
I strongly argue that it should only apply to commercial OSes and app stores though - as they're the ones that primarily cause issues these laws intent to address.
Linux and FOSS have been caught in the crossfire in a privacy and personal data battle they were not involved in.
tyler@programming.dev · 29 pts · 136d
The legislation is entirely to allow Facebook to get away with harming minors, so I wouldn’t call it mild in any sense of the word.
lost_faith@lemmy.ca · 25 pts · 136d
The boiling pot goes up 1C, then another 1C
pulsewidth@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 135d
https://www.britannica.com/topic/slippery-slope-argument
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 135d
nope. slippery slope is basically “bad thing can happen, so it will happen” without evidence to support that outcome. here, we have a trajectory. there’s a pattern. it has momentum at this point. it hasn’t changed corse. it’s followed a predictable and proven pattern. It’s done so because the the pressures exerted on this particular system guide the outcome in predictable ways.
that is entirely different than the slippery slope dismissal
pulsewidth@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 134d
No, entirely incorrect. "bad thing can happen, so it will happen" is essentially a mangling of Murphy's Law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
Pinguini@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 135d
More "thin end of the wedge".
whelk@retrolemmy.com · 20 pts · 136d
For me at least, it's less about the age field itself and more about the swift act of compliance with an absurd and overbearing demand
lonesomeCat@lemmy.ml · -2 pts · 135d
What is the alternative here?
forestbeasts@pawb.social · 13 pts · 135d
Not implementing it and going "well okay don't use it in California then", for one thing!
lonesomeCat@lemmy.ml · -3 pts · 135d
I'm not an expert in law. But wouldn't the maintainers be fined if an underage used it in California? Given that they can obtain it without any sort of location spoofing
cows_are_underrated@feddit.org · 10 pts · 135d
Not an expert in law either, but I Am pretty sure, that they would not be fined.
Janx@piefed.social · 12 pts · 136d
Good points. It's like websites with an age-gate: technically they're trying to keep out users under a certain age (usually minors), but there's no verification.
But we all need to remember that "protecting the children" and clutching our pearls is still not a good reason to let world governments and giant corporations create laws, demand our papers, keep massive databases of our data, and tie our real-world identities to our online ones. It will be the end of anonymity online, they'll use it for evil, and it will get hacked...
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 135d
whereas I , out of pettiness, will switch an entire server to openRC to fuck over these assholes who only care about “line goes up”
Vocalize8711@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 135d
A man of culture, I see. Every system I admin runs SysVInit or OpenRC. I do not need a 'dictator' like systemd.
khleedril@cyberplace.social · 2 pts · 135d
@Vocalize8711 @muusemuuse There is also #gnu_shepherd
jimmy90@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 135d
the lemmy doomers must scratch their suicidal itch
MagnificentSteiner@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 136d
They don't call the systemd change "age verification" in the article.
In fact, they specifically make the point that it isn't.
other_cat@piefed.zip · 8 pts · 136d
They do use it in the title though (the title on this post was auto-generated from the article, I didn't pick it out.)
I agree with OP, it's not really age verification in the sense we've been seeing in the news, but it IS a step in the direction of following the letter of the law without intrusiveness.
MagnificentSteiner@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 136d
The title says it is bringing the option for age verification, not that it is age verification.
other_cat@piefed.zip · 2 pts · 136d
Good point, I stand corrected.
oatscoop@midwest.social · 0 pts · 136d
kaiyo@piefed.ca · 5 pts · 136d
If, and I do stress if applications require it filled out, there are simply going to be an awful lot of epoch birthdates in their data. And frankly a lot of people, myself included, who will step up and write replacements to these applications in order to give a giant middle finger to authoritarian governments/companies as a result.
It's very mild this, and as it has no 'verification', it's just a meaningless string of numbers.
TrivialBetaState@sopuli.xyz · 49 pts · 136d
I disagree. While I totally understand that it is an optional feature that can enabled and enforced only by others, I am not happy that the developers of systemd rushed to include it into the JSON file with the user info. I would expect the developers to be a bit more resistant to requests by two US states and Brazil. Why are they making it so easy? I guess we will see a resurgence of systemd-free dirstros.
InevitableWaffles@midwest.social · 14 pts · 135d
Sorry, minor correction. Not all the systemd developers. One single dickhead wrote it and two chuds who work at microslop merged the PR made this happen. The git structure got hijacked. People are arguing over the validity and necessity of the PR while ignoring the broader goals this serves.
To be frank, I am so sick of this invasive nonsense. I have a son and you know how I'm going to manage access for him? Not fucking letting him have the damn computer before he knows how to use it safely. I grew up on Web 1 and web 2.0. They were much scarier places back in the day and easier to find.
Moreover, this also follows with the trend of sensationalizing threats to make the pearl clutchers feel this is a good choice. Its no different that how the news screams the US is unsafe with tons of violent crime to justify this kind of bullshit when violent crime has been declining on the whole.
This ginned up controversy serves one interest. Control access to knowledge so you never question the State again.
Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 134d
It also lets the Epstein class know who the minors are.
PokerChips@programming.dev · 2 pts · 135d
Can we have a rule that if you work for microslop then you are invalidated from working on any Linux project? Doesn't that sound reasonable?
Avicenna@programming.dev · 1 pts · 133d
This is singularly the worst time such a change could be implemented, so much so that I am almost looking for malintent.
InevitableWaffles@midwest.social · 1 pts · 133d
You aren't wrong to suspect the timing. They have been working on a variety of bills to work on the KYC aspect of the business. This major push, along with Android Developer Verification, are the ways the corpos want remove any anonymity.
Buelldozer@lemmy.today · 8 pts · 136d
4 US states; California, New York, Colorado, and Illinois.
Tinidril@midwest.social · 3 pts · 135d
In at least Illinois, this is still in the proposal phase. The bad news is that there are also more draconian proposals that require government issue IDs.
PokerChips@programming.dev · 3 pts · 135d
Why are all the "progressive" states first in line?
drspectr@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 135d
Big tech wants this, big tech has immense influence in most of these states.
DarkMetatron@feddit.org · 3 pts · 135d
Also germany too
cows_are_underrated@feddit.org · 1 pts · 135d
Where are you getting this information from, that Germany is requiring age verification on an OS level?
DarkMetatron@feddit.org · 2 pts · 135d
From the law:
§12 Jugendmedienschutzstaatsvertrag: https://www.landesrecht-bw.de/bsbw/document/jlr-JMedienSchStVtrGBWV10StVtr-P12
cows_are_underrated@feddit.org · 4 pts · 135d
Interesting, didnt knew about that one.
It might be debatable if this would even apply to Linux (its basically the same AS with the laws from california), since the law requires "distributors of operating systems" to implement this (who is the distributor) and it might be debatable if Linux falls under the definition of "operating systems usually used by child's and teenagers".
DarkMetatron@feddit.org · 1 pts · 135d
Not sure if this is helpfull:
https://www.landesrecht-bw.de/bsbw/document/jlr-JMedienSchStVtrGBWV10StVtr-P3
A distributor of an operating system is a person or legal entity who provides operating systems.
It is extremely vague, it could be everyone from the creators of the distribution, to the person/company running the download mirror, down to the person who does the installation.
Without some court rulings to bring some guidelines and practical applications of the law there is the risk that everyone handling a non-compliant OS could be judged under the law if someone under 18 could get access to to OS or a System running it.
cows_are_underrated@feddit.org · 2 pts · 135d
That is indeed very vague
ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 135d
They can fuck off. Time to check out Artix.
voidsignal@lemmy.world · 35 pts · 136d
Whatever the old farts will come with their stupid laws, SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKERS, it's Linux. It's always a sudo away from doing (or not) exactly what you (don't) want. I know. This is beyond their comprehension. Adding a field here is ok to me. Because if it ends up being used:
The only thing that will hurt from this are companies in CA, CO and wherever.
The average Linux user will not give a single fuck. I know I don't.
eleitl@lemmy.zip · 24 pts · 136d
A lot of people born January the first, 1970.
caseyweederman@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 136d
Ahh, another Epoch traveler
whelk@retrolemmy.com · 4 pts · 136d
Go team Crono
exaybachae@startrek.website · 18 pts · 136d
I like the idea of a system add-on that randomizes all user age responses with a different date that equals like 25-99years old (assuming 25 years meets the highest age for the applicable standards).
Not too dissimilar from a random MAC address generating feature.
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 136d
SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKERS, it's Linux was my band in high school.
voidsignal@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 136d
I need to ear it now
rc__buggy@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 136d
And really, when was the last time some megacorp tried to access userdb on any machine?
voidsignal@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 136d
And in a twisted way, this may be good. For instance, Microslop will probably spent millions to please their pedos overlords. They will require PC vendors to add cryptographic chips to ensure you cannot change your age, that has been verified after a background check required to buy Windows... We all know how product managers think (if you don't you're lucky, stay the fuck away)
The probable result: more and more people will switch to Linux, where they can be a 3000y old tree.
chunes@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 135d
So why not just remove the field then?
ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 135d
Because they are bootlicking and being complicit in shifting the Overton Window. Let's have guns everywhere, but the Internet is too dangerous.
whimsy@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 136d
All of that is true, at least for now. But if you look at the work the systemd developers have been doing with remote attestation and end to end verification of computers, it starts to paint a grim picture. Web based integrity might not be that far off. But I really hope it doesn't get that bad
ell1e@leminal.space · 3 pts · 135d
Relevant article: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/you-the-problem-tpm2-solves.en.html
And if anybody thought TPM provides security: https://www.elevenforum.com/t/tpm-2-0-is-a-must-they-said-it-will-improve-windows-security-they-said.13222/ https://gist.github.com/osy/45e612345376a65c56d0678834535166 https://www.sophos.com/en-us/blog/serious-security-tpm-2-0-vulns-is-your-super-secure-data-at-risk https://www.covertswarm.com/post/how-secure-are-tpm-chips
Reader, you know what's likely most secure? FOSS code, peer-reviewed and regularly patched.
I don't get why one would trust security theater, aka TPM and secureboot.
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 135d
its the opposite in the best possible way. FOSS = “we know it’s too complicated to make perfect. that’s why it’s all out in the open where we call eachother out on our shit. We dont sell, we improve.” proprietary = “there is no war in ba sing seigh and to say or demonstrate otherwise is terrorism against shareholders.”
voidsignal@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 136d
The owner of the machine is the one who decide. You can already make the life of other non root users absolutely miserable. The major difference is that it is YOU who control that. Not the company you bought your laptop from.
Also attestation is a super cool feature when you understand it. Because again, it's free.
In general, systemd hate is a mark of ignorance. Which is fine. Ignorance can be fixed.
whimsy@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 136d
I quite like the init and journal parts of systemd. I'm not a hater. But I've been around long enough to see where this attestation road might lead to. Google tried it recently with their WEI initiative.
But now the time is ripe again with child safety being mentioned left and right. This is all speculative but combine secure boot ,and kernel level attestation and suddenly one must use verified applications which among other things can't block ads and whatnot
texture@lemmy.world · 27 pts · 136d
ohh now theyve gone and done it.
normies are gonna start hating on systremd for this. which will upset the og systemd haters for hating systemd for the wrong reasons, thereby frustrating the og systemd haters and helping them achieve new yet unmet levels of hate for systemd.
just a guess
forestbeasts@pawb.social · 10 pts · 135d
eh?
og systemd hater (ish) here, personally I'm hoping to team up with the new systemd haters. This is just yet Another reason to hate on it, haha. We can work together!
(granted we came to Linux (from Mac) lonnggg after systemd already got entrenched, but the reasons we hated systemd (before now) were the same sorts of "it's trying to take over everything" reasons that the og haters hate it for)
-- Frost
pinball_wizard@lemmy.zip · 7 pts · 136d
Yes. I also hate feeling confused about where my hatred for SystemD firsts into the bigger picture
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 135d
isn’t enough that we all hate the same thing? lets not overthink this. All I want is a socially-accepted smoldering crater
DarkMetatron@feddit.org · 3 pts · 135d
"normies" will not care at all
texture@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 134d
i mean sure, but ofc i meant normies in the context of linux
kbal@fedia.io · 24 pts · 136d
How to get age verification into linux? Easy, just tell Poettering that if he doesn't hurry up and do it first, some non-systemd approach might become the standard.
Luminous5481@anarchist.nexus · 6 pts · 136d
Skullgrid@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 136d
This isn't about age verification, this is about him sabotaging linux instead of sabotaging encroachment by authoritarians in every single aspect of life. He didn't have to go and shove the entire boot down his throat, but here we are.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/revoluciana-facing-fascism-sabotage
Luminous5481@anarchist.nexus · -2 pts · 136d
Skullgrid@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 136d
fucking who cares if it's not him, I'm talking about the assholes that did those things
good, keep not reading things on this site and go somewhere else without text
Luminous5481@anarchist.nexus · -5 pts · 136d
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 135d
its building a surveillance infrasttucture.
this feature does not solve a problem. but it is abusable by creating dependancies. it has no reason to exist. it is not there to solve a technical problem, but instead a political one.
admin@scrapetacular.ydns.eu · 1 pts · 123d
I think we should start calling this age attestation rather than verification, or does the confusion help us here by making the linux ecosystem seem like it's more compliant than it is?
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 135d
the operating systems job is to negotiate between software and hardware. its there to make sure “my red triangle program draws the same red triangle on anything running this environment regardless of the parts used to build the machine”. its not there to rat you out to a surveillance state or advertisers or meta.
The idea that this protects children is insane and nobody believes this for a second. Hormones happened and little timmy has discovered the wonders of nudity and friction. age attestation doesn’t stop that. it doesn’t stop horrible people from preying on that. it doesn’t teach timmy the difference between fantasy and what a healthy relationship really looks like. it doesn’t address any of those things.
it tracks people. that is all it does. that is all it is for. and considering literal nazis are in power, nobody wants this. it does not solve a problem.
5715@feddit.org · 2 pts · 136d
Should this strategy become an RFC?
unknown1234_5@kbin.earth · 16 pts · 136d
its age attestation, not age verification (saying it vs proving it). also, dont give systemd shit about this bc they are just covering their asses in case more restrictive laws go through.
Unleaded8163@fedia.io · 15 pts · 136d
They're not even really covering their asses. They don't make an OS, they make a small but important art of many distros. They're providing a clean, standardized way for Linux distros from RedHat to Ageless to comply with the law if they choose to. Some distros will comply with the law to the letter, others will not comply out of spite. At least the ones that comply will do it in a standard way.
Jesus_666@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 136d
I am kinda giving them shit for when someone pointed out that they're essentially storing PII completely unsecured and their response was "you should use app isolation anyway". That is not a good security model.
unknown1234_5@kbin.earth · 0 pts · 136d
thats fair, but a lot of people are giving them shit for complying in the first place with a law that is going to be in the state they're based in.
whelk@retrolemmy.com · 13 pts · 136d
I think the fact that they acted so quickly to comply is the problem
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works · 0 pts · 135d
no, they are bending to the knee. you dont say “let’s compromise with the nazis.” you say “let’s barbecue nazis in their own ovens. dave has a fucking great nazi sauce…”
unknown1234_5@kbin.earth · -4 pts · 135d
hey dumbass, private corporations have to follow the law and they need to react fast enough to have a system in place when the law takes effect.
GenosseFlosse@feddit.org · 16 pts · 135d
Which values should I absolutely not manually write into the birthday field Json data, because they could break the DB on the other side when storing unsanitized input?
massacre@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 135d
Asking for a friend?
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 135d
I had problems with systemd before... but this capitulation to what is clearly an unconstitutional demand...
fuck systemd devs. fuck them all.
renegadespork@lemmy.jelliefrontier.net · 8 pts · 136d
I see a lot of people freaking out about this, but adding this as an optional field was the right call.
This way, distros can choose for themselves whether or not they want to use it during account creation.
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 135d
optional sounds reasonable now. its gets its foot in the door. it sounds like compromise. but then, other things start depending on it. and if you dont comply, they just dont work. its a dependancy. break that dependency become incompatible.
this is not solving any problem. Sites already have the “are you 18” thing that says you aren’t allowed to know about naked people doing naked people things that we all ignored as teenagers and grew up just fine.
realitaetsverlust@piefed.zip · 4 pts · 136d
At least someone gets it.
It's kinda crazy how many people here claim to use linux or even actually use linux, but apparently don't know what the operating system does and what the system manager does.
Uncut_Lemon@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 133d
Maybe it should be a parents job to parent, and not leave it to governments and companies to parent children.
Most of these issues that age verification is trying to solve is a parenting issues. A teen is still going to likely find a way around this nonsense without any repercussions. It's a parents job to teach children how to be safe in public spaces and the etiquette required.
No idea why systemd is even bending a knee to any of this at all. Doesn't even seem like a problem systems should ever try resolve. That should be a distro maintner issue at worst case.
DarkMetatron@feddit.org · 2 pts · 135d
It is mandatory that Distributions follow the laws, because without it they can't be used in classrooms, libraries, youth centers, or in any other places where kids or other young people can have access to them. That means that, as long as such laws exist, only close source Systems (most likely windows) can be used there if linux is not compliant. Not SystemD is the issue or the problem here, hanging them is like shooting a messanger when he brings bad news.
SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de · 11 pts · 135d
being a law does not make it just.
I'd love for countries to declare linux illegal. and see how quick tech companies will put an end to this stupid age requirement bullshit
DarkMetatron@feddit.org · -1 pts · 135d
this is true, but as long as the law is active it has power to ruin lives or created huge costs when ignored or even acted against.
It is up to the courts or the legislative to declare laws unjust, until that happened even potential unjust laws are binding.
knexcar@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 135d
Or more likely Linux will go back to being irrelevant and Windows will continue to reign supreme.
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 135d
Sir, can I introduce you to the concept of forbidden knowledge?
DarkMetatron@feddit.org · 2 pts · 135d
I don't understand what you mean in this context
Sunshine@piefed.ca · 1 pts · 136d
There’s the first article!
thingsiplay@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 136d
It's not a feature, it's a bug.
obbeel@lemmy.eco.br · 1 pts · 134d
Well, it's clear Linux is getting a lot of attention on the desktop side of things. So it's important that all organizations involved make the right decisions for the public interest and the environment of Linux.
That means a community level of compliance that matches Big Tech capacities.