It's amazing how popular this ancient philosophical metaphysical perspective is. Even Stephen Colbert, a devout Catholic, responded with a similar concept when asked in his questionnaire what happens when we die?
Moksha (Hinduism), Nirvana (Buddhism), returning to the Tao (Taoism), Neoplatonism (ancient Greece), Fanaa (Sufism/Mystical Islam) - over millenia, so many traditions have been captivated by the idea of rejoining with "the One".
Within Hinduism is the nonthestic framework promoted by Adi Shankara known as Advaita Vedanta which is Sanskrit for nonduality. This takes the concept even further, positing that we are one eternally and that individuality / self are spiritual Maya or illusion.
shrooms can make you more empathetic, but in my case it also unlocked a new kind of depression in realizing that so many who need a change of perspective to see things that way, even for but a glimpse, never will. I felt such love and empathy for others in that moment, and such sorrow that it would never be felt nor returned by the vast majority of others; I understood perfectly in that moment what Edgar Mitchell meant by an "instant global consciousness", and how we would likely never achieve this state of enlightenment among enough individuals to matter.
I understood perfectly in that moment what Edgar Mitchell meant by an “instant global consciousness”, and how we would likely never achieve this state of enlightenment among enough individuals to matter.
consciousness is like a river, it becomes turbulent when things start flowing quickly enough. the abrasive property of living in a society full of change is ironically what makes it difficult to relate to other people's experience, as it is quite difficult to see the actions in another train's wagons when the relative movement is too great.
Yeah they can make you feel that way especially if you do them with a tight friend, but in reality you're still locked into your own perspective.
Maybe if more people believed we could kind of willingly feel it by proxy. Kind of like how mirror neurons let you simulate the other on your own equipment.
There's actually a shocking variety that induce this, as an amateur psychonaut. Personally, I enjoy LSA for a "lite" version. One can brew it from a particular yellow flower native to the Southwest, but particularly called "mormon tea".
You could just work on "first shift", or what in Buddhism is called Fetters 1 and 2. Seeing through the self delusion. No woo-woo required and it's the first stepping stone. But a big one.Just realizing there is no "me" here, and never has been, helps a lot.
Do you ever just realize that everyone is in space right now? Like, sure, there's an atmosphere, but other than that you're basically out there. The air around you is sky. The vacuum around you is universe. When you take a closer look, there are universes within universes, whole worlds of microbes, like the ones on the very surface of the keyboard I type this on - on the larger scale, ecosystems of stars, being born, evolving and dying - like in a cosmic "firework show". But they don't tend to affect each other, I think. They're so far away...
And then, there's us. We're so small yet so big. Does that make us special or just mediocre? To an ant we are giants, to a star we don't exist. Why does consciousness as we know it only exist in the middle of sizes? Maybe because it's "as we know it", and of course we only really know what things are like at our scale? Maybe sapience is subtle, and it can only be detected when you spend every moment dealing with it. Perhaps atoms are kind of conscious, and brains are the shape they make such that their consciousness field constructively interferes. Idk
Spaceship Earth (or Spacecraft Earth or Spaceship Planet Earth) is a worldview encouraging everyone on Earth to act as a harmonious crew working toward the greater good.
nah
it's just saying that there's no absolute ground, no absolute physical coordinate system. (relativity)
The universe is physical, ie made of material stuff. There is just stuff and the forces between stuff
Stuff is governed by physical laws
The interractions between things are relatively simple, but get much more complex and seemingly ramdom the more stuff you add
This seeming randomness is not true randomness because the interractions between things are governed by predictable rules
We are made of stuff, down to the neurons in our brains
Our actions and thoughts are ultimately directly caused by neuronal activity that is (in theory) predictable and governed by laws
Free will and individuality aren't "real" in the way people typically mean. Our actions are determined entirely by the particles in our system interracting with the constituent parts of other systems.
My conclusion: this doesn't matter on a practical level. We still experience free will and individuality. But those things are illusions caused by the interractions of many complex systems.
Which part of that clip gives some room for flexibility? From my watching of the clip, he just says this is an old religious problem that we are now examining from the viewpoint of science, and that the apparent room for flexibility in quantum probabilities don't offer anything like actual free will. And he essentially concludes by saying that despite there being no evidence of any shred of anything like free will, that we still need to search for and strive for it.
That's the neat thing, you can choose to believe both to be true at the same time, but never reconcile them. Just as there most likely wouldn't be pleasure without pain.
As a species, we really should learn to live in and with perpetual ambiguity. There is no fixed point and no achieving bliss. Only permanent struggle towards the "right" path, whatever that shapes up to be.
It's amazing how popular this ancient philosophical metaphysical perspective is. Even Stephen Colbert, a devout Catholic, in his final episode responded with a similar concept when asked in his questionnaire what happens when we die?
Moksha (Hinduism), Nirvana (Buddhism), returning to the Tao (Taoism), Neoplatonism (ancient Greece), Fanaa (Sufism/Mystical Islam) - over millenia, so many traditions have been captivated by the idea of rejoining with "the One".
Within Hinduism is the nonthestic framework promoted by Adi Shankara known as Advaita Vedanta which is Sanskrit for nonduality. This takes the concept even further, positing that we are one eternally and that individuality / self are spiritual Maya or illusion.
Sort of but not really. Consciousness is intrinsic to a living brain. So while the basic components that we're made out of will continue on until the end of the universe, our time as unique individuals and our experience of it will come to an end. Which is a bummer for us, but that's a natural aversion that all life necessarily shares.
My personal philosophy on this is that the forces that shaped me and made me who I am will still exist after I'm gone, so it seems inevitable that some version of me will someday recombobulate by pure chance into some variation of what I represent.
Well, there's a theory that the Big Bang created both our universe which has an excess of matter and is moving forward through time; and, in the same instant, a mirror universe that has an excess of antimatter and is moving backward through time. So there's a mirror-you who, in a way, lived billions of years before you.
The next question then is: is this a cyclical event?
Well that would be the physicalism/materialism hypothesis. Truth is we don't know. That's why it's called the "Hard Problem of Consciousness"
The scientific and philosophical communities are split into a few major camps:
Physicalism / Materialism: They believe consciousness is an emergent property of complex biological computation. Just like "wetness" emerges when you put hydrogen and oxygen together, consciousness emerges when you network enough neurons. (Though critics argue wetness is still just physical behavior, while consciousness is a whole new dimension).
Idealism / Non-Dual Perspectives: This flips the script entirely. Instead of consciousness being a product of the brain, the brain (and the whole physical world) is an appearance within consciousness. In this view, you don't have a conscious brain; the brain is a conceptual map appearing in the wide-open space of prior awareness.
Panpsychism: The view that consciousness is a fundamental building block of the universe, like mass or electrical charge, and complex brains simply channel or organize it rather than creating it from scratch.
Yeah I think consciousness is evidence in and of itself that the universe can organize into a higher order. It would be conceited to claim that because I obtained consciousness that means I can understand how that higher order functions. My consciousness will never reform exactly how it is now, but that is just a reflection of an ever changing universe.
You can find your own peace through the death of your ego. I wouldn't call it coping, but being in touch with reality. We are all just a piece of a cycle, consciousness is but a beautiful gift of circumstance.
Through our eyes, the universe is perceiving itself. Through our ears, the universe is listening to its harmonies. We are the witnesses through which the universe becomes conscious of its glory, of its magnificence - Alan Watts
And then there's another one about trying to separate the waves from the ocean, but I can't find it. So here's another Watts.
You didn't come into this world You came out of it, like a wave from the ocean.
It funny, this concept communicates how personal conciousness is an illusion... but the personification and active voice when describing the universe in this fashion is also an illusion.
80 Comments
cattywampas@lemmy.world · 94 pts · 88d
Klear@piefed.world · 39 pts · 88d
"Did I stutter?"
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world · 33 pts · 88d
So the universe hates itself. This explains a lot.
cattywampas@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 88d
Growing pains of an emerging consciousness.
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 88d
Not looking forward to it's teenage years
shawn1122@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 88d
It's amazing how popular this ancient philosophical metaphysical perspective is. Even Stephen Colbert, a devout Catholic, responded with a similar concept when asked in his questionnaire what happens when we die?
Moksha (Hinduism), Nirvana (Buddhism), returning to the Tao (Taoism), Neoplatonism (ancient Greece), Fanaa (Sufism/Mystical Islam) - over millenia, so many traditions have been captivated by the idea of rejoining with "the One".
Within Hinduism is the nonthestic framework promoted by Adi Shankara known as Advaita Vedanta which is Sanskrit for nonduality. This takes the concept even further, positing that we are one eternally and that individuality / self are spiritual Maya or illusion.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 88d
Yoink
grrgyle@slrpnk.net · 36 pts · 88d
I love this kind of philosophy. I wish it were possible to access it on a tangible level, but sadly it seems consciousness is local phenomena
Sadbutdru@sopuli.xyz · 20 pts · 88d
I've heard if you take certain hallucinogens you can...
volore@scribe.disroot.org · 22 pts · 88d
shrooms can make you more empathetic, but in my case it also unlocked a new kind of depression in realizing that so many who need a change of perspective to see things that way, even for but a glimpse, never will. I felt such love and empathy for others in that moment, and such sorrow that it would never be felt nor returned by the vast majority of others; I understood perfectly in that moment what Edgar Mitchell meant by an "instant global consciousness", and how we would likely never achieve this state of enlightenment among enough individuals to matter.
dharmacurious@slrpnk.net · 5 pts · 88d
Have you tried DMT?
nymnympseudonym@piefed.social · 5 pts · 88d
Twice
Fucking intense
dharmacurious@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 88d
I've been seriously considering trying it. How long did the after effects last?
nymnympseudonym@piefed.social · 3 pts · 88d
After 45 mins felt basically normal a little run down like hadn't had my morning coffee yet.
The peak apparently lasted 20 mins. I experienced several cosmic epochs in that period
dharmacurious@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 88d
Any long term effects? Did you love it? Hate it?
volore@scribe.disroot.org · 2 pts · 88d
no
FlyingCircus@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 88d
And then there’s people like Joe Rogan who take all the psychedelics but apparently don’t realize a fucking thing.
roundup5381@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 87d
"they're consciousness expanding drugs, there has to be some consciousness there to expand"
NotANick@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 88d
gandalf_der_12te@feddit.org · 1 pts · 88d
consciousness is like a river, it becomes turbulent when things start flowing quickly enough. the abrasive property of living in a society full of change is ironically what makes it difficult to relate to other people's experience, as it is quite difficult to see the actions in another train's wagons when the relative movement is too great.
grrgyle@slrpnk.net · 8 pts · 88d
Yeah they can make you feel that way especially if you do them with a tight friend, but in reality you're still locked into your own perspective.
Maybe if more people believed we could kind of willingly feel it by proxy. Kind of like how mirror neurons let you simulate the other on your own equipment.
Elting@piefed.social · 3 pts · 88d
Can confirm that enough magic mushrooms will cause you to see and feel god.
OpenStars@piefed.social · 1 pts · 87d
How much until you become one?
scathliath@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 87d
There's actually a shocking variety that induce this, as an amateur psychonaut. Personally, I enjoy LSA for a "lite" version. One can brew it from a particular yellow flower native to the Southwest, but particularly called "mormon tea".
Bipauler@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 87d
I thought Mormon tea contains plant based Ephedra? LSA is morning glory or Hawaiian baby wood rose seeds, iirc, no?
scathliath@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 87d
I might be mixing up my chemistry; I'll admit, it's been a decade since I even had access to Mormon tea.
The_Picard_Maneuver@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 88d
Yeah, but being able to conceive of it is a pretty cool consolation prize at least.
grrgyle@slrpnk.net · 4 pts · 88d
It is :)
shawn1122@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 88d
Meditation but it would take a while to get there. It is fun to work towards it though.
grrgyle@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 88d
Yeah meditation is cool. Would be interesting to try doing it more
gandalf_der_12te@feddit.org · 3 pts · 88d
eh you can still walk around and talk to other people
grrgyle@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 86d
And then there's that. Much harder to do with yourself, if you're singular at least.
Emptiness@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 88d
You could just work on "first shift", or what in Buddhism is called Fetters 1 and 2. Seeing through the self delusion. No woo-woo required and it's the first stepping stone. But a big one.Just realizing there is no "me" here, and never has been, helps a lot.
kartoffelsaft@programming.dev · 22 pts · 88d
callyral@pawb.social · 17 pts · 88d
The Universe (big thing) pretending to be individuals (small thing)
vs
Atoms (small thing) pretending to be individuals (big thing)
callyral@pawb.social · 14 pts · 88d
Do you ever just realize that everyone is in space right now? Like, sure, there's an atmosphere, but other than that you're basically out there. The air around you is sky. The vacuum around you is universe. When you take a closer look, there are universes within universes, whole worlds of microbes, like the ones on the very surface of the keyboard I type this on - on the larger scale, ecosystems of stars, being born, evolving and dying - like in a cosmic "firework show". But they don't tend to affect each other, I think. They're so far away...
And then, there's us. We're so small yet so big. Does that make us special or just mediocre? To an ant we are giants, to a star we don't exist. Why does consciousness as we know it only exist in the middle of sizes? Maybe because it's "as we know it", and of course we only really know what things are like at our scale? Maybe sapience is subtle, and it can only be detected when you spend every moment dealing with it. Perhaps atoms are kind of conscious, and brains are the shape they make such that their consciousness field constructively interferes. Idk
gandalf_der_12te@feddit.org · 3 pts · 88d
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceship_Earth
the article is shit sadly
nah
it's just saying that there's no absolute ground, no absolute physical coordinate system. (relativity)
ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml · 16 pts · 88d
My thought recently has been:
The universe is physical, ie made of material stuff. There is just stuff and the forces between stuff
Stuff is governed by physical laws
The interractions between things are relatively simple, but get much more complex and seemingly ramdom the more stuff you add
This seeming randomness is not true randomness because the interractions between things are governed by predictable rules
We are made of stuff, down to the neurons in our brains
Our actions and thoughts are ultimately directly caused by neuronal activity that is (in theory) predictable and governed by laws
Free will and individuality aren't "real" in the way people typically mean. Our actions are determined entirely by the particles in our system interracting with the constituent parts of other systems.
My conclusion: this doesn't matter on a practical level. We still experience free will and individuality. But those things are illusions caused by the interractions of many complex systems.
kayzeekayzee@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 11 pts · 88d
This is called "determinism"
otacon239@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 88d
Take a look at this and it gives some room for flexibility (from a movie called Waking Life): https://youtu.be/4arOKZvuZK4
SourDrink@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 88d
Watching this clip back on college is what solidified my love for philosophy.
BillyClark@piefed.social · 1 pts · 87d
Which part of that clip gives some room for flexibility? From my watching of the clip, he just says this is an old religious problem that we are now examining from the viewpoint of science, and that the apparent room for flexibility in quantum probabilities don't offer anything like actual free will. And he essentially concludes by saying that despite there being no evidence of any shred of anything like free will, that we still need to search for and strive for it.
gandalf_der_12te@feddit.org · 3 pts · 88d
what if you live in a computer simulation, and you just see chemicals because that's part of the simulation, but there are actually none?
::: spoiler Spoiler
:::
radiofreebc@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 87d
QueenHawlSera@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 87d
I remember when I believed this. How I wish it were true
Kor@feddit.org · 10 pts · 87d
That's the neat thing, you can choose to believe both to be true at the same time, but never reconcile them. Just as there most likely wouldn't be pleasure without pain.
As a species, we really should learn to live in and with perpetual ambiguity. There is no fixed point and no achieving bliss. Only permanent struggle towards the "right" path, whatever that shapes up to be.
Luis_StieglLorbeer@lemmy.dorfrollenspiel.de · 3 pts · 87d
Woah. That was... Deep
Kor@feddit.org · 2 pts · 87d
I'm kind of split on that :>
MajorasTerribleFate@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 87d
"That's the neat thing, you can choose to believe both to be true at the same time, but never reconcile them."
-Kor
PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 86d
Take some shrooms and you'll see it
plutopos@lemmy.zip · 11 pts · 88d
WOAH the universe is Gluttony from Fullmetal Alchemist??
shawn1122@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 88d
It's amazing how popular this ancient philosophical metaphysical perspective is. Even Stephen Colbert, a devout Catholic, in his final episode responded with a similar concept when asked in his questionnaire what happens when we die?
Moksha (Hinduism), Nirvana (Buddhism), returning to the Tao (Taoism), Neoplatonism (ancient Greece), Fanaa (Sufism/Mystical Islam) - over millenia, so many traditions have been captivated by the idea of rejoining with "the One".
Within Hinduism is the nonthestic framework promoted by Adi Shankara known as Advaita Vedanta which is Sanskrit for nonduality. This takes the concept even further, positing that we are one eternally and that individuality / self are spiritual Maya or illusion.
gandalf_der_12te@feddit.org · 4 pts · 88d
it's not antique, it's continuously re-discovered. it's timeless. some might call it universal
roundup5381@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 87d
perennial philosophy
panda_abyss@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 88d
FTFY
BillyClark@piefed.social · 12 pts · 88d
Hey guys! I found the giant asshole who is behind both Elon Musk and Donald Trump!
OpenStars@piefed.social · 2 pts · 87d
Hey, not everyone you dislike is literally Hitler!
Except this guy, who literally is, fuck that guy!
harmbugler@piefed.social · 9 pts · 87d
The Egg - A Short Story
chunes@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 87d
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_individualism
Elting@piefed.social · 6 pts · 88d
Makes dying a lot more comfortable when one realizes its another illusion.
cattywampas@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 88d
Sort of but not really. Consciousness is intrinsic to a living brain. So while the basic components that we're made out of will continue on until the end of the universe, our time as unique individuals and our experience of it will come to an end. Which is a bummer for us, but that's a natural aversion that all life necessarily shares.
kayzeekayzee@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 88d
My personal philosophy on this is that the forces that shaped me and made me who I am will still exist after I'm gone, so it seems inevitable that some version of me will someday recombobulate by pure chance into some variation of what I represent.
PrimeMinisterKeyes@leminal.space · 3 pts · 88d
Well, there's a theory that the Big Bang created both our universe which has an excess of matter and is moving forward through time; and, in the same instant, a mirror universe that has an excess of antimatter and is moving backward through time. So there's a mirror-you who, in a way, lived billions of years before you.
The next question then is: is this a cyclical event?
Emptiness@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 88d
Well that would be the physicalism/materialism hypothesis. Truth is we don't know. That's why it's called the "Hard Problem of Consciousness"
The scientific and philosophical communities are split into a few major camps:
Physicalism / Materialism: They believe consciousness is an emergent property of complex biological computation. Just like "wetness" emerges when you put hydrogen and oxygen together, consciousness emerges when you network enough neurons. (Though critics argue wetness is still just physical behavior, while consciousness is a whole new dimension).
Idealism / Non-Dual Perspectives: This flips the script entirely. Instead of consciousness being a product of the brain, the brain (and the whole physical world) is an appearance within consciousness. In this view, you don't have a conscious brain; the brain is a conceptual map appearing in the wide-open space of prior awareness.
Panpsychism: The view that consciousness is a fundamental building block of the universe, like mass or electrical charge, and complex brains simply channel or organize it rather than creating it from scratch.
Flagstaff@programming.dev · 2 pts · 88d
You're funny! https://www.bbcearth.com/news/the-jellyfish-that-never-dies
cattywampas@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 88d
Never dies of old age but still can die from trauma, disease, and predation. And like all life it'll naturally want to avoid those things.
Elting@piefed.social · 1 pts · 88d
Yeah I think consciousness is evidence in and of itself that the universe can organize into a higher order. It would be conceited to claim that because I obtained consciousness that means I can understand how that higher order functions. My consciousness will never reform exactly how it is now, but that is just a reflection of an ever changing universe.
grrgyle@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 88d
Yeah. I think if we deprioritize individual consciousness then it comes easier to swallow (by the conscious mind...).
Obviously you shouldn't deprioritize others' minds. This is just a personal technique/cope.
Elting@piefed.social · 3 pts · 88d
You can find your own peace through the death of your ego. I wouldn't call it coping, but being in touch with reality. We are all just a piece of a cycle, consciousness is but a beautiful gift of circumstance.
axx@slrpnk.net · 5 pts · 88d
Cool. WTF though.
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 87d
Encapsulates some actual serious philosophies!
capt_wolf@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 86d
And then there's another one about trying to separate the waves from the ocean, but I can't find it. So here's another Watts.
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 86d
Alan Watts rules - or did.
nymnympseudonym@piefed.social · 4 pts · 88d
"And I am you
And what I see is me..."
Pink Floyd, Echoes
harambe69@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 88d
Advaita vedanta ftw
Zachariah@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 88d
When a Mayan says
IN LAKE'CH,he means
I AM ANOTHER YOURSELF.JayDee@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 87d
It funny, this concept communicates how personal conciousness is an illusion... but the personification and active voice when describing the universe in this fashion is also an illusion.
veni_vedi_veni@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 87d
OP should watch "Look Outside" lore videos
Martineski@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 88d
Ouroboros is ouroboros.
LuminousLuddite@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 88d
Fandangalo@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 88d
https://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html
pedrobear@altgag.net · 2 pts · 71d
This reminded me of "The Egg", a great short story by Andy Weir