The title falsly implies that mercator is "incorrect". Mercator is an angle preserving projection, meaning all angles are true to real life. The "equal earth" map is an area preserving projection, meaning it retains the true area of countries, but in return the angles are all wrong. This makes equal earth unsuitable for navigation for example.
It is also wrong to imply that this is some kind of new development. This was very much known all along, mercator simply became the default because world maps used to be primarily for navigation.
The title is incomplete, but then again the title is already pretty big without being "The UN has backed replacing the 500-year-old Mercator projection with maps that conform to the actual surface areas of the continents, including the Equal Earth cartographic projection, were appropriate"
Yes, all of the 2D projections distort too much. When possible, half of the globe should be shown, from whichever angle is most relevant. Many people have no idea what a map centered on the North Pole looks like, and how close the countries in the northern hemisphere are to each other.
Traditional navigation is so cool, I had to learn the basics of it a few years ago as part of a course I was on. I suspect it'll feel rather less ceremonial in the future if GPS jamming and spoofing continue to become more common.
Isn't Africa connected to Eurasia? So we have the Americas and AfroEurasia plus some islands. Which is why "continents" has no meaning and is another social construct unless you divide them in a way that makes zero sense to anyone who isn't a geologist.
I know at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, but it always rubbed me the wrong way when Europeans claim that The Americas are one continent because it's one connected landmass, but somehow Europe is it's own continent. North/South America at least came from different super continents and only recently collided. Europe (minus the Balkans) and Asia (minus Arabian and Indian peninsulas) have been together since at least Pangaea.
According to wikipedia, these are the total areas of both countries:
USA: 9,833,520 km2
Canada: 9,984,670 km2
I am certain I am just misunderstanding the system behind this new projection but reading it is supposed to display accurate area, it seems Canada should show up bigger.
They’re about the same size. In this image, Canada’s northern islands are all spread out to show them inside their Mercator projections. You have to mentally add them to the large mass.
Every few years this comes up again, and every time some nonsense about colonialism or whatever is brought up.
There is no "true" size or "true" shape on a 2D projection of Earth's very 3D surface. We used the one projection for so long because of how coastal shapes don't get bent way out of proportion, but like with any projection, messes with the other aspects.
Rather than making spicy click bait titles every so often about the "true" projection of the Earth, how about we teach kids at school what it takes to project something 3D on a 2D surface?
As a neurodivergent map person, I'm over-aware of the difficulties of map projection. And I agree that simply calling this new projection 'accurate' is misleading
But at the same time, the use of the Mercator as the standard default map in situations that have nothing to do with ocean navigation for literally hundreds of years is absolutely a reflection of the relative power of the Global North, and can't be dismissed as 'nonsense about colonialism'
so coming from you pleasr tell us what would be the best way to project an as accurate as possible world map? I mena both in 3D version and as a 2D version
If you're not using it to engage in navigation, Equal Earth is a sensible default.
Tools like Google maps are a bit thornier. They're used for navigation, but generally not in a way where angles matter. I could see someone getting themselves into trouble because the angles are screwy. But then again if Google cared about that sort of case, we wouldn't have the recent story of the Gemini hikers.
yeah, i tried to figure out the angle between two points off google maps the other day. it fucking sucked. i ended up using another website that was basically a frontend for doing it.
i'm still not sure if it was right. if i go orienteering again, i'm bringing paper maps. precharted routes and angles drawn in so i don't have to look anything up out in the field. orienteering off your phone is stupid.
What is the best general world map to teach kids about the world, that we can put in a book or as a poster on the wall, without having to switch to different maps for each lessen, confusing everyone?
A 3D version would be a globe. A 2D version is inherently inaccurate because it's 2D and the earth is not. You are free to pick your poison in the manner of your projection but you will always loose something.
So when it comes to picking a 2D poison which ome would be currently best? The new UN map ? or ....
Or would a better solution for 2D be a 'collection' of pictures of the Earth from numerous different angles? And we just look at each of the angles seperately as their own seperate 2D picture of different parts of the Earth? So Im talking we supposedly take 14 or 20 or more different pictures of the Earth from 14 or 20 or more different angles of the Earth then we just lay out each of those pictures and it is up to the viewer to look at each picture of each angles of the Earth and to do what they can in their head with those pictures. Bad idea, good idea?
In what way? It inflates the size of areas as they get further away from the equator, resulting in Africa being portrayed as relatively much smaller than it is compared to Europe and North America
Now I’m imagining a dick measuring contest where the men care more about whose is measured most accurately for some reason, rather than showing off how long their dick is
The center - east to west - is 0 degrees longitude, defined as the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, England. This does also go through West Africa
The center - north to south - is 0 degrees latitude, defined as the equator.
Because of this, Africa is central on the vast majority of world map projections including the Mercator and the Equal Earth.
Accuracy is relative. The Mercator distorts areas bigger the further away they are from the equator. This exaggerates the size of the USA, Europe etc compared to Africa.
The big advantage is that the 180th meridian ends up in a very unpopulated part of the world. It is Chukotka Oblast and more importantly Fiji. For the current 0meridian style maps, that is two edges being without much population and not cutting too many continents.
It says it is used. But it's not the map this thread is talking about. It's not the map the UN is replacing. It's not the map in the thumbnail. It's not the original Mercator map. Its not the most widely used map projection.
But at the same time, the use of the Mercator as the standard default map in situations that have nothing to do with ocean navigation for literally hundreds of years
My question continues that thread.
And my point (subtle it may be) is that when something is wildly useful, it sticks.
Despite not being universally good.
And to change from it you need more than just a slight advantage.
That's why the UN didn't think about changing map projection.
If you’re asking me to tell you the best way to navigate 500 years ago, I can’t help you because I’m not a historian. The point is that really has absolutely no bearing on how we should use maps today in the present.
I mean, before the advent of GPS, ships at sea got a "fix" of their position by taking two measurements: north/south latitude (via a sextant when the sun was visible) and east/west longitude (via a set of very accurate clocks that showed the time in Greenwich England, which could be easily compared to the time aboard ship). Mercator maps are just a grid showing where all the land is as a function of these two measurements on the X and Y axes. Any other projection would have just meant a lot more work figuring out where shit was, which is why Mercator became "the" map. It had absolutely nothing to do with any attempt to make Europe appear dominant -- Europe's dominance when these maps came into existence was too obvious and unquestioned to need any parlor tricks.
The only reason to have a default map is political.
People actually using maps and GIS pick whatever projection suits their needs - which is not Mercantor most of the time to begin with. I work with GIS a lot and never use it, unless forced by some API. But even then, reprojecting is trivial.
Think of opening the earth up onto a cylinder and stretching it out and over its surface, then flattening that cylinder out.
It will be equal in the centre, but distorted at the ends.
The projection we use is the Reverse Transverse Mercator, as its ‘cylinder’ sits vertical so to speak, distorting the poles. Horizontally, it would distort across the Equator in a couple places, which wouldn’t be useable.
Isn't this incorrect though? As far as I am aware it is possible to represent true size (equal-area) or true shape (conformal), but not both at the same time
I'm so sick of this shit. You want an accurate map? Buy a globe. There is no accurate flat map projections. All are wrong. Different projections have different flaws and serve different purposes.
I like Isaac Asimov, have owned shoes with toes, and mostly use my VR headset for 3d modelling. I tried Dvorak, but gave up when I realized it would be exhausting to use any other keyboard everywhere else.
Maps are especially used in education, i see it very hard to include a globe with every book and set up a big ass globe in every classroom but whatever
i remember during the breakup of yugoslavia our history teachers, who thought it important that we not only were familiar with but had memorized the capitals, names and locations of all the countries in the world and states in the us (literally that's all we did one year for history. memorize locations and names and blah blah. that damn animaniacs song was a godsend to anyone who had a vcr). so they were bitching and moaning that they were having to buy new map rolls what seemed like every year because another country was declaring independence.
i was too young to tell whether he was being sardonic, like "they had to fight for independence and all i gotta do is get a new map pack woe is me" or if he was really complaining. but they have the good projectors now. should be a lot easier.
The problem with projectors is that then kids can't see the globe at home, unless you ask them to see it online but a 8 years old kid hardly will be able do it (and i assure you, depending on parents being able to do it is a BAD idea, there is lots of parents who can't or that will simply show the wrong thing) and it also means that you have to depend on internet access, what if internet access is down or electricity got fucked? (those projectors or smart whiteboards are so shitty that they would not be able to have an offline version)
Also, unless you're using a paper map, you should never have to see a flat map projection.
We all carry around supercomputers in our pockets that can easily do the math to render a globe. If we want to use a bigger screen, they have even more powerful processors.
Does anybody actually use paper maps at all anymore? I guess sometimes people mount them on the wall and point at them, but I mean using a map to calculate distance, find a path, etc.
What's ridiculous is that even though computers should be rendering the world as a globe, some websites (even Google Maps) still sometimes use Mercator. It's especially ridiculous when it's something like a flight-tracking website where the flight is going in a straight line on the globe, but is rendered as a curved path on a stupid map projection.
I mean the good thing about a flat projection is that you can see everything at once. When you're comparing data points of different countries it is nice to see them on a flat map. Neither the actual size nor the angles really matter in that case.
For most navigation people are going less than 50 miles projecting it onto a virtual globe would be pointless and not in any way shape or form beneficial.
Lol, good luck "accurately" mapping our irregular oblate spheroid on to a globe (i.e. a regular sphere). You're correct that map projections inherently make concessions and introduce inaccuracies. But a globe would just require a different kind of projection in this context. And that projection hides more subtle inaccuracies. Globes are not an answer to the problem of map projection distortion.
You were so close.
The countries in the UN judged that Equal Earth was better suited for the currently expressed needs than Mercator.
Detailled purposes changed, prefered projection was changed accordingly.
164 to 1 countries have unanimously voted that the Equal Earth projection is better than the 500 year old colonial Mercator projection, chill. (1 dissenting vote was the USA)
um, okay but this specific distortion is unhelpful to me. it just shows the extent of the distortion, not what the new map would be. the new map is the most pertinent piece of info.
Reminder that the red depiction is also "wrong", and not the equal area projection. The equal area projection map looks like this:
(Can't upload pictures on blahaj piefed, HTTP 400 error)
In some senses, the red area is more wrong than the Mercator, since it is not a projection at all, but a false projection. The distances between the countries are misleading, especially when superimposed on the Mercator, which is also misleading in terms of sizes, but not shape.
All projections are compromises, but false projections are completely untethered from a mathematical relationship to the actual globe.
It is OK and not misleading if it were made clear that the red area is NOT a map, but a way of depicting the size only. Since it is shown in a geographic context with no disclaimer, i don't think this is universally apparent.
There are many equal area world map projections, this one is called Equal Earth. It’s a very solid choice too. Although the very top and bottom of this map are still stretched when viewed on a Tissot indicatrix. Still way better than the shitty Mercator.
All world maps are inaccurate except a globe. Equal Earth still shows distortions when you move closer to the poles. Instead of stretching along the latitude it now compresses along the longitude
I feel like showing true sizes is the only thing this does better. I wouldn't want to study a world map where many countries are almost impossible to even see due to how small and skewed they are displayed as.
So, what you're saying is that you don't care about the Gambia? 🥲
Part of me wanted to write something like Cambodia and see if you notice.
But more serious answer:
Personally, I fucking hate that I've been told incorrect information since young age. I wish every Mercator map had a warning like some countries have in their side mirrors.
I also hate that it reinforces racist biases. But well, evidently you know the truth. And I do get being more interested in the countries in your region. Everyone is.
Does Asia seem a little small compared to Africa to anyone else? Almost feels like China and Siberia should be a bit larger considering they make up like 50% of the continent, and Asia is supposed to be 10% larger than Africa.
152 Comments
Zwiebel@feddit.org · 220 pts · 1d
The title falsly implies that mercator is "incorrect". Mercator is an angle preserving projection, meaning all angles are true to real life. The "equal earth" map is an area preserving projection, meaning it retains the true area of countries, but in return the angles are all wrong. This makes equal earth unsuitable for navigation for example.
It is also wrong to imply that this is some kind of new development. This was very much known all along, mercator simply became the default because world maps used to be primarily for navigation.
ViatorOmnium@piefed.social · 35 pts · 1d
The title is incomplete, but then again the title is already pretty big without being "The UN has backed replacing the 500-year-old Mercator projection with maps that conform to the actual surface areas of the continents, including the Equal Earth cartographic projection, were appropriate"
nuko147@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 6h
We had some cartography classes in the university and since then I cant accept anything other than 3D globe or parts of it.
I don't fly an airplane or sail a ship to need straight lines.
starik@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 2h
Yes, all of the 2D projections distort too much. When possible, half of the globe should be shown, from whichever angle is most relevant. Many people have no idea what a map centered on the North Pole looks like, and how close the countries in the northern hemisphere are to each other.
mobyduck648@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 19h
Traditional navigation is so cool, I had to learn the basics of it a few years ago as part of a course I was on. I suspect it'll feel rather less ceremonial in the future if GPS jamming and spoofing continue to become more common.
Jhex@lemmy.world · -5 pts · 1d
how is Canada smaller than the USA in this "equal earth" map when it's supposed to display true areas? or is the pic in this post just shitty?
venuswasaflytrap@lemmy.world · 33 pts · 1d
Canada (without the various arctic islands) is considerably smaller than the contiguous (sans Alaska and Hawaii) US.
DaGeek247@fedia.io · 22 pts · 22h
Mercator projection is Canada's pushup bra.
merc@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 20h
It's bigger even if you include Alaska (and Hawaii, but you can ignore Hawaii because it's small).
yucandu@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 23h
We're repeatedly told in school and all throughout our media that Canada is the "second largest land mass in the world". Is that not true?
13igTyme@piefed.social · 2 pts · 22h
Land mass or country? Because the Americas make us the second largest land mass with Eurasia and Africa because the largest.
TheMadCodger@piefed.social · 1 pts · 21h
Isn't Africa connected to Eurasia? So we have the Americas and AfroEurasia plus some islands. Which is why "continents" has no meaning and is another social construct unless you divide them in a way that makes zero sense to anyone who isn't a geologist.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 3 pts · 20h
We should divide the continents in:
Continents: the actual land, so we have the Americas (i'd count them as one as they are almost one), AfroEuroAsia
Sub continents: their definition is cultural so we have north and south america, Africa, Europe, Asia and Oceania
Don't take anything too seriously, i thought about this on two feets around 2 years ago and forgot about that until now
TheMadCodger@piefed.social · 3 pts · 17h
I know at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, but it always rubbed me the wrong way when Europeans claim that The Americas are one continent because it's one connected landmass, but somehow Europe is it's own continent. North/South America at least came from different super continents and only recently collided. Europe (minus the Balkans) and Asia (minus Arabian and Indian peninsulas) have been together since at least Pangaea.
13igTyme@piefed.social · -4 pts · 18h
Which is exactly why I said Eurasia AND Africa. I also never said continent. I said LND MASS which is what was previously said.
Work on your reading comprehension.
T00l_shed@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 21h
Canada is the second largest country in the world by area.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz · 16 pts · 1d
Because Canada is ~10% smaller than the US.
Ludicrous0251@piefed.zip · 18 pts · 1d
And that, folks, is why map projections matter, and this update is loooooong overdue.
remon@ani.social · 8 pts · 1d
Canada is slightly larger than the US in total area. The US is a tiny bit larger when you just count land-area.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz · 6 pts · 1d
Well yes, Canada is larger if you count the ocean as part of Canada lmao
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 21h
You say that but do you count Hudson Bay?
Per population density, Canada is a 50 mile stripe along the US border.
remon@ani.social · -2 pts · 1d
Canada total area: 9,984,670 km^2
USA total area: 9,866,624 km^2
Have a look a the respective 2nd digits of those numbers and consider that 9 is indeed bigger than 8.
Source: Wikipedia.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz · 3 pts · 1d
Total land area: 9,093,507
You are counting ocean as part of Canada, a thing not represented on maps.
Imagine being this condescending and wrong.
remon@ani.social · 7 pts · 1d
No oceans were counted. But the total area does includes lakes and rivers.
And I already said earlier that the US slightly larger when you just look at land area. It's no where near 10% though.
T00l_shed@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 21h
You're the one doing it
Jhex@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1d
Smaller in area?
According to wikipedia, these are the total areas of both countries:
USA: 9,833,520 km2 Canada: 9,984,670 km2
I am certain I am just misunderstanding the system behind this new projection but reading it is supposed to display accurate area, it seems Canada should show up bigger.
OrganicMustard@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 22h
You have to look at the land area.
T00l_shed@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 21h
And lakes and rivers those count too
remon@ani.social · 4 pts · 1d
They look about the same size to me and they should be about the same size. So that checks out.
starik@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 2h
They’re about the same size. In this image, Canada’s northern islands are all spread out to show them inside their Mercator projections. You have to mentally add them to the large mass.
chunes@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 14h
This post is a perfect example of why we need the new map, lol
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 72 pts · 21h
Every few years this comes up again, and every time some nonsense about colonialism or whatever is brought up.
There is no "true" size or "true" shape on a 2D projection of Earth's very 3D surface. We used the one projection for so long because of how coastal shapes don't get bent way out of proportion, but like with any projection, messes with the other aspects.
Rather than making spicy click bait titles every so often about the "true" projection of the Earth, how about we teach kids at school what it takes to project something 3D on a 2D surface?
And just use a fucking globe!
Kobibi@sh.itjust.works · 42 pts · 20h
As a neurodivergent map person, I'm over-aware of the difficulties of map projection. And I agree that simply calling this new projection 'accurate' is misleading
But at the same time, the use of the Mercator as the standard default map in situations that have nothing to do with ocean navigation for literally hundreds of years is absolutely a reflection of the relative power of the Global North, and can't be dismissed as 'nonsense about colonialism'
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 18h
so coming from you pleasr tell us what would be the best way to project an as accurate as possible world map? I mena both in 3D version and as a 2D version
paraplu@piefed.social · 6 pts · 17h
Pick one that suits your application.
If you're not using it to engage in navigation, Equal Earth is a sensible default.
Tools like Google maps are a bit thornier. They're used for navigation, but generally not in a way where angles matter. I could see someone getting themselves into trouble because the angles are screwy. But then again if Google cared about that sort of case, we wouldn't have the recent story of the Gemini hikers.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 15h
yeah, i tried to figure out the angle between two points off google maps the other day. it fucking sucked. i ended up using another website that was basically a frontend for doing it.
i'm still not sure if it was right. if i go orienteering again, i'm bringing paper maps. precharted routes and angles drawn in so i don't have to look anything up out in the field. orienteering off your phone is stupid.
Honytawk@discuss.tchncs.de · 1 pts · 1h
That is not really an answer.
What is the best general world map to teach kids about the world, that we can put in a book or as a poster on the wall, without having to switch to different maps for each lessen, confusing everyone?
If it is not Mercator, then which one is?
philipp_@discuss.tchncs.de · 4 pts · 17h
A 3D version would be a globe. A 2D version is inherently inaccurate because it's 2D and the earth is not. You are free to pick your poison in the manner of your projection but you will always loose something.
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 9h
So when it comes to picking a 2D poison which ome would be currently best? The new UN map ? or ....
Or would a better solution for 2D be a 'collection' of pictures of the Earth from numerous different angles? And we just look at each of the angles seperately as their own seperate 2D picture of different parts of the Earth? So Im talking we supposedly take 14 or 20 or more different pictures of the Earth from 14 or 20 or more different angles of the Earth then we just lay out each of those pictures and it is up to the viewer to look at each picture of each angles of the Earth and to do what they can in their head with those pictures. Bad idea, good idea?
WolfLink@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 18h
The Mercator projection really seems to be Africa-centric if anything
Kobibi@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 17h
In what way? It inflates the size of areas as they get further away from the equator, resulting in Africa being portrayed as relatively much smaller than it is compared to Europe and North America
WolfLink@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 15h
Africa is by far the most accurately portrayed part of the map, and it’s right in the center.
Jtotheb@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 14h
Now I’m imagining a dick measuring contest where the men care more about whose is measured most accurately for some reason, rather than showing off how long their dick is
Kobibi@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 10h
The center - east to west - is 0 degrees longitude, defined as the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, England. This does also go through West Africa
The center - north to south - is 0 degrees latitude, defined as the equator.
Because of this, Africa is central on the vast majority of world map projections including the Mercator and the Equal Earth.
Accuracy is relative. The Mercator distorts areas bigger the further away they are from the equator. This exaggerates the size of the USA, Europe etc compared to Africa.
MrMakabar@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 48m
The big advantage is that the 180th meridian ends up in a very unpopulated part of the world. It is Chukotka Oblast and more importantly Fiji. For the current 0meridian style maps, that is two edges being without much population and not cutting too many continents.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 15h
it's in the center?
w3ird_sloth@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 18h
Exactly. It's easy to brush off the idea of soft power but it has real consequences.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 16h
It is complete nonsense. Use makes something standard, and maps have most been used in navigation. So it naturally becomes the default.
This is how ALL defaults become defaults, even when they're wrong.
stylusmobilus@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 16h
You know it’s the Reverse Mercator right?
It’s been the best way to transform a curved surface to a plane surface in a way that people understand.
Kobibi@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 10h
It's not the Reverse Mercator... I'm not sure what that is
Do you mean Transverse Mercator? Although it's not that either
stylusmobilus@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 6h
Yeah I did, thank you
Edit: and yeah we definitely use the transverse
Kobibi@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 2h
We do not
(Well, we do sometimes but it's not the map in question)
stylusmobilus@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 57m
The link you provide says we use the Transverse Mercator projection
I screwed up with ‘reverse’ but it was transverse I meant and it’s what’s popularly used.
Kobibi@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 28m
It says it is used. But it's not the map this thread is talking about. It's not the map the UN is replacing. It's not the map in the thumbnail. It's not the original Mercator map. Its not the most widely used map projection.
It's used in specific situations yes
Viceversa@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 20h
What better alternative projection they could use at the time for navigation?
Kobibi@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 17h
I don't know? That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the UN using it not for navigation in 2026
Viceversa@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 8h
My question continues that thread.
And my point (subtle it may be) is that when something is wildly useful, it sticks.
Despite not being universally good.
And to change from it you need more than just a slight advantage.
That's why the UN didn't think about changing map projection.
ayyy@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 19h
You might note that the present is, in fact, not 500 years ago.
Viceversa@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 19h
Is that the answer to my question?
ayyy@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 19h
If you’re asking me to tell you the best way to navigate 500 years ago, I can’t help you because I’m not a historian. The point is that really has absolutely no bearing on how we should use maps today in the present.
Viceversa@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 19h
And the present doesn't affect the past.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 15h
from the perspective of an art conservationist i'm not entirely sure i agree.
ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 14h
I mean, before the advent of GPS, ships at sea got a "fix" of their position by taking two measurements: north/south latitude (via a sextant when the sun was visible) and east/west longitude (via a set of very accurate clocks that showed the time in Greenwich England, which could be easily compared to the time aboard ship). Mercator maps are just a grid showing where all the land is as a function of these two measurements on the X and Y axes. Any other projection would have just meant a lot more work figuring out where shit was, which is why Mercator became "the" map. It had absolutely nothing to do with any attempt to make Europe appear dominant -- Europe's dominance when these maps came into existence was too obvious and unquestioned to need any parlor tricks.
Viceversa@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 20h
For political uses new projection is better. UN body are not going to use that to navigate.
Marbling@feddit.org · 2 pts · 7h
The only reason to have a default map is political.
People actually using maps and GIS pick whatever projection suits their needs - which is not Mercantor most of the time to begin with. I work with GIS a lot and never use it, unless forced by some API. But even then, reprojecting is trivial.
chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 17h
I don't really understand the difference, but Greenland is not bigger than Australia right?
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 15h
wait. is yo mamma fatter in greenland or NZ? what if we remove NZ from the map?
stylusmobilus@aussie.zone · 2 pts · 16h
No
Think of opening the earth up onto a cylinder and stretching it out and over its surface, then flattening that cylinder out.
It will be equal in the centre, but distorted at the ends.
The projection we use is the
ReverseTransverse Mercator, as its ‘cylinder’ sits vertical so to speak, distorting the poles. Horizontally, it would distort across the Equator in a couple places, which wouldn’t be useable.Kobibi@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 10h
The projection we use is just the Mercator. Horizontally, it's called a Transverse Mercator
stylusmobilus@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 6h
That’s right, transverse
lordziv@lemmy.nz · 4 pts · 7h
How do you use a globe on paper tho?
floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 15h
Isn't this incorrect though? As far as I am aware it is possible to represent true size (equal-area) or true shape (conformal), but not both at the same time
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 14h
Yeah, isn't that what I said?
floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 14h
I read it as neither one is possible, but maybe it's on me.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 14h
Well, I meant is when projecting something in 2D, you're making a sacrifice somewhere.
NeilNuggetstrong@lemmy.world · 50 pts · 1d
I'm so sick of this shit. You want an accurate map? Buy a globe. There is no accurate flat map projections. All are wrong. Different projections have different flaws and serve different purposes.
DaGeek247@fedia.io · 49 pts · 22h
Yes, you're very clever.
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 21h
I think the world needs a revolution in consciousness.
agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 11h
I like Isaac Asimov, have owned shoes with toes, and mostly use my VR headset for 3d modelling. I tried Dvorak, but gave up when I realized it would be exhausting to use any other keyboard everywhere else.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 15 pts · 20h
Maps are especially used in education, i see it very hard to include a globe with every book and set up a big ass globe in every classroom but whatever
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 15h
i remember during the breakup of yugoslavia our history teachers, who thought it important that we not only were familiar with but had memorized the capitals, names and locations of all the countries in the world and states in the us (literally that's all we did one year for history. memorize locations and names and blah blah. that damn animaniacs song was a godsend to anyone who had a vcr). so they were bitching and moaning that they were having to buy new map rolls what seemed like every year because another country was declaring independence.
i was too young to tell whether he was being sardonic, like "they had to fight for independence and all i gotta do is get a new map pack woe is me" or if he was really complaining. but they have the good projectors now. should be a lot easier.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 1 pts · 7h
The problem with projectors is that then kids can't see the globe at home, unless you ask them to see it online but a 8 years old kid hardly will be able do it (and i assure you, depending on parents being able to do it is a BAD idea, there is lots of parents who can't or that will simply show the wrong thing) and it also means that you have to depend on internet access, what if internet access is down or electricity got fucked? (those projectors or smart whiteboards are so shitty that they would not be able to have an offline version)
Droechai@piefed.blahaj.zone · 13 pts · 23h
Waterman butterfly looks very striking though, woulf make an awesome background on a UN logo
TheMadCodger@piefed.social · 11 pts · 21h
Really? You know the Waterman? Have you seen the 1909 Cahill map it's based…
merc@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 21h
Also, unless you're using a paper map, you should never have to see a flat map projection.
We all carry around supercomputers in our pockets that can easily do the math to render a globe. If we want to use a bigger screen, they have even more powerful processors.
Does anybody actually use paper maps at all anymore? I guess sometimes people mount them on the wall and point at them, but I mean using a map to calculate distance, find a path, etc.
What's ridiculous is that even though computers should be rendering the world as a globe, some websites (even Google Maps) still sometimes use Mercator. It's especially ridiculous when it's something like a flight-tracking website where the flight is going in a straight line on the globe, but is rendered as a curved path on a stupid map projection.
hegus@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 18h
I mean the good thing about a flat projection is that you can see everything at once. When you're comparing data points of different countries it is nice to see them on a flat map. Neither the actual size nor the angles really matter in that case.
merc@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 15h
Why would you need a map for that? That seems like something where a table is more useful.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 2 pts · 7h
It's more appealing visually and generally easier to navigate because you don't need to search a country on the list, it's easier to find it on a map
To be noted: usually those maps are paired with a table and aren't made to give precise information
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 15h
if i'm going hiking, yes. i don't trust the phone to maintain a connection in the wild.
merc@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 58m
If you're going hiking, I'm betting your map isn't a world map, therefore the projection isn't an issue.
michaelmrose@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 13h
For most navigation people are going less than 50 miles projecting it onto a virtual globe would be pointless and not in any way shape or form beneficial.
merc@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 58m
So, you're saying a more-or-less flat section of a globe should seem flat. Ok... and?
Wolf314159@startrek.website · 7 pts · 20h
Lol, good luck "accurately" mapping our irregular oblate spheroid on to a globe (i.e. a regular sphere). You're correct that map projections inherently make concessions and introduce inaccuracies. But a globe would just require a different kind of projection in this context. And that projection hides more subtle inaccuracies. Globes are not an answer to the problem of map projection distortion.
Noel_Skum@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 19h
I cannot disagree with that last sentence…
Edit: for context the sentence used to start with “Gloves aren’t…” but there’s been a ninja edit from OP above.
untropvertimide@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 3h
You were so close. The countries in the UN judged that Equal Earth was better suited for the currently expressed needs than Mercator. Detailled purposes changed, prefered projection was changed accordingly.
redparadise@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 3h
164 to 1 countries have unanimously voted that the Equal Earth projection is better than the 500 year old colonial Mercator projection, chill. (1 dissenting vote was the USA)
Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de · 40 pts · 1d
LodeMike@lemmy.today · 27 pts · 19h
This is true proportional/scaled size. I'm sure Russia is bigger than an inch wide as it's displayed on my screen
Silic0n_Alph4@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 18h
That’s just what the US Military Industrial Complex want you to believe!
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 15h
pff. that's tankie revisionist current eventstory
LittleBorat3@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 7h
In other news: Trump doesn't want Greenland anymore...
ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 4h
Nah, he will just call the map "DEI".
redparadise@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 3h
Actually, 164 to 1 countries voted in favour of the new projection, the one opposing vote was from the USA.
lenocolomo@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 5h
Can't get picky if you're an orange.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 15h
um, okay but this specific distortion is unhelpful to me. it just shows the extent of the distortion, not what the new map would be. the new map is the most pertinent piece of info.
tomatolung@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 7h
OldChicoAle@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 9h
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Earth_projection
sem@piefed.blahaj.zone · 17 pts · 1d
This is a good and long coming change.
Reminder that the red depiction is also "wrong", and not the equal area projection. The equal area projection map looks like this:
(Can't upload pictures on blahaj piefed, HTTP 400 error)
In some senses, the red area is more wrong than the Mercator, since it is not a projection at all, but a false projection. The distances between the countries are misleading, especially when superimposed on the Mercator, which is also misleading in terms of sizes, but not shape.
All projections are compromises, but false projections are completely untethered from a mathematical relationship to the actual globe.
It is OK and not misleading if it were made clear that the red area is NOT a map, but a way of depicting the size only. Since it is shown in a geographic context with no disclaimer, i don't think this is universally apparent.
Here is a link to a 3D globe: https://tembrica.com/en/earth-globe
Here is a good comparator of Mercator size vs equal size countries, not superimposed on a map. https://www.runcell.dev/tool/true-size-map/equal-earth-projection
sem@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 15 pts · 1d
Equal Earth
Areaprojection:CobraCommander@quokk.au · 11 pts · 20h
It’s great for countries in the middle, I.e Europe. Everyone else gets warped and slanted to the side.
Gonna have to rename ourselves to Australia.
Honytawk@discuss.tchncs.de · 1 pts · 23m
Don't you mean: ɐılɐɹʇsn∀
whoneedsgravy@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 22h
There are many equal area world map projections, this one is called Equal Earth. It’s a very solid choice too. Although the very top and bottom of this map are still stretched when viewed on a Tissot indicatrix. Still way better than the shitty Mercator.
Viceversa@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 20h
Why is the Mercator shitty? It has its purpose and it's good in it.
sem@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 18h
Thanks for the correction! Fixed
maniacalmanicmania@aussie.zone · 2 pts · 22h
@time2lose@lemmy.world update your post with the correct image.
BeMoreCareful@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
Oh that's clever, I was concerned about the longitude lines, but this is quite readable.
I just don't like the one with missing slivers in the oceans.
AnalogAllamma@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 22h
Would be nice to see Antarctica
dylanmorgan@slrpnk.net · 11 pts · 21h
Pfft, you believe in Antarctica? Sure, a wHoLE ConTiNenT cOVeEreD in IcE.
GiantChickDicks@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 21h
Covered in ice for now.
qarbone@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 20h
Don't worry. We're well on schedule to fix that.
some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org · 10 pts · 2h
Watch out, UN. My idiot president is gonna get mad.
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 1d
I was already aware how big Africa really is. I'm actually more surprised that Greenland is smaller.
pilferjinx@piefed.social · 7 pts · 1d
I swear they did this so Trump doesn't get grand ideas of expanding hugely.
one_step_behind@quokk.au · 4 pts · 22h
Here's to hoping it makes Canada less of a target as well.
riskable@programming.dev · 7 pts · 1d
Big Block of Cheese Day finally became prophecy! 😭
I shall gather my team and walk fast through the halls in remembrance of a wonderful show that was almost entirely based on wishful thinking.
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 21h
And witty banter!
SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 4h
All world maps are inaccurate except a globe. Equal Earth still shows distortions when you move closer to the poles. Instead of stretching along the latitude it now compresses along the longitude
thespcicifcocean@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 4h
Dymaxian is a pretty good one for showing sizes, useless for navigation though
tetris11@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 3h
How about Dymaxion
yucandu@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 23h
Everyone else: uses a globe
Bloomcole@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 5h
I'm sure that was high on the list of demands for African counties, kept in a debt trap and exploited.
thespcicifcocean@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 4h
Best we can offer is changing a map.
lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com · 6 pts · 19h
Hahaha, Russia 🤏
Iconoclast@feddit.uk · 6 pts · 22h
I feel like showing true sizes is the only thing this does better. I wouldn't want to study a world map where many countries are almost impossible to even see due to how small and skewed they are displayed as.
Ephera@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 20h
I think, you just have to buy a bigger map for that. With Mercator, it's Africa's countries that get squished down.
Iconoclast@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 19h
But they remain perfectly visible due to how massive they're to begin with. I don't really see what the actual issue is.
Ephera@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 17h
So, what you're saying is that you don't care about the Gambia? 🥲
Part of me wanted to write something like Cambodia and see if you notice.
But more serious answer:
Personally, I fucking hate that I've been told incorrect information since young age. I wish every Mercator map had a warning like some countries have in their side mirrors.
I also hate that it reinforces racist biases. But well, evidently you know the truth. And I do get being more interested in the countries in your region. Everyone is.
So, TL;DR: Fair enough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
majster@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 6h
No. Africa is nice and correct. It's northern hemisphere that gets stretched out.
MunkyNutts@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 17h
I'm going with the Gall--Peters Projection: https://youtu.be/vVX-PrBRtTY
87Six@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 2h
How will we deal with the spaces between the countries that will form? Especially the one under Russia
TwodogsFighting@lemdro.id · 4 pts · 2h
Duh, bridges.
Asfalttikyntaja@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 36m
Do nothing. We are happy to see Russia going far away from the Finland.
wuphysics87@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 7h
I like the one what looks like a pealed orange personally
tetris11@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 4h
It always blows my mind that the US and China are the exact same size. +/- ~15000km^2^
(i.e. Northern Ireland + China == US)
SCmSTR@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 18h
JamieDub86@piefed.social · 1 pts · 21h
Kind of amazed that something I got told in RE when I was about 11 is true.
Psythik@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 19h
When did they mention map projections in Resident Evil? I don't remember that part of the game...
JamieDub86@piefed.social · 1 pts · 14h
Dunno. Never played it.
ThrowawayPermanente@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 1h
Relative Earthanomics is a course taught in European gymnasiums. Obviously.
maniacalmanicmania@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 22h
TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today · -1 pts · 1d
Does Asia seem a little small compared to Africa to anyone else? Almost feels like China and Siberia should be a bit larger considering they make up like 50% of the continent, and Asia is supposed to be 10% larger than Africa.
Viceversa@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 20h
Look at them at the globe to make the right assumption.
ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1d
It looks right once you count the Middle East and all of Southeast Asia.