paywall removed: https://archive.ph/lPnUo
Trump Is Reportedly Sending Israel $2.8 Billion in Bombs. You're Paying for Them
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-supply-bombs-israel-1235627183/
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-supply-bombs-israel-1235627183/
paywall removed: https://archive.ph/lPnUo
227 Comments
PointlessLifePersonified@slrpnk.net · 93 pts · 4d
So Israel's genocidal rampage is more important than winning in Iran, and all the US military over there are sacrificing their lives for no (useful) reason. I don't get why the right-wingers aren't more incensed over this crap.
lemmyng@lemmy.world · 48 pts · 4d
It's a death cult.
WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world · 31 pts · 4d
It's the mental illness epidemic of fascism
chaogomu@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 4d
Once someone accepts hatred into their heart, they're easy to control, and most of these people have had 20 years of Islamophobia mainlined 24/7.
They don't see humans anymore because their brain shuts off at "Muslim".
And it's the exact same playbook used by every fascist. Give them someone to hate, and they'll let you do basically anything as long as you actively hurt the people you told them to hate.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 3d
Why not both? Is there even a difference?
moldy_rice@piefed.keyboardvagabond.com · 5 pts · 3d
because christian fascism
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 2d
this guy Chris Hedges
moldy_rice@piefed.keyboardvagabond.com · 2 pts · 2d
Definitely one of my heros
empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 7 pts · 4d
Cult + they will never be informed of this on fox and/or be told this is a great thing for national security
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social · 7 pts · 3d
No, duh! They already won in Iran. Haven't you heard Dear Leader? Iran's utterly destroyed and the Strait is open! If you have high gas prices is because that damned Zelensky is bombing poor Russia's oil infrastructure!
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 2d
and also cutting oil demand by using solar panels is trans for some reason
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 3d
lol. Even if USA "wins", the planet loses as usual. But realistically there's no end to this imperial terror attack. It's been happening for centuries.
aarch0x40@piefed.social · 43 pts · 4d
Your Medicaid and SNAP benefits hard at work!
areakode@riskeratspizza.com · 14 pts · 4d
I'm sending my health care! Hopefully I can die quickly and quietly to push that line just a bit higher for corporate overlords. Hail corporate!
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social · 38 pts · 3d
That's a lot of food stamps to cut so bibi the nazi can keep his genocide running.
BillyClark@piefed.social · 5 pts · 3d
Food stamps for the needy? Bad!
Bomb stamps for a genocidal regime? Good?
If welfare queens exist, then Israel is the ultimate welfare queen. Just sucking up money and never becoming a productive member of the world.
boonhet@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 3d
I'd argue they're welfare fraudsters rather than welfare queens. They've got tons of money, most of the tech industry is connected to Israeli engineering. They're just also constantly getting even more money so they don't need to spend as much of their own money. Always best to waste someone else's money.
BillyClark@piefed.social · 6 pts · 3d
"Welfare fraudster" is exactly what "welfare queen" means, and is why the term is so offensive.
boonhet@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 18h
Ah I always thought welfare queen just meant lazy and living off it, rather than rich and claiming it.
bedwyr@piefed.ca · 2 pts · 3d
It's not even money they are cutting from social programs, it's all borrowed. The ruling class are going for broke, we will be at 50 trillion debt by 2028 easy. I bet even more, all they need is a national emergency.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 3d
It's time for the Final Solution. Then Trump and Kushner can finally develop the Jewish Dubai out of the ruins. That's what he's getting in exchange for full collaboration.
anon_8675309@lemmy.world · 28 pts · 3d
You pay for their bombs. The money they save allows them to have socialized healthcare.
You bust your ass to keep your family with healthcare … and your government helps another country provide THEIR citizens healthcare.
Let that shit sink in.
chiliedogg@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 3d
Yep. This is the argument to make to Republicans. We pay for socialized healthcare for Israel. Ask them to explain why we can justify that while also making cuts to other international healthcare initiatives and denying healthcare to Americans.
KeithD@lemmy.nz · 2 pts · 2d
You also pay a crapton of taxes for heathcare in your own country. More than a lot of countries with socialised healthcare, in fact. You just then have to also pay even more for health insurance so you can then need to pay out of pocket for the lifesaving healthcare you've already paid twice for.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 2d
You're assuming they'd be capable of rational thought?
Hueristic_Autistic@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2d
The joke is that the US doesn't help other countries. It does things to look good but genuinely helping a country build up, won't happen, not unless there's a military motive or a motive to still have proxy control and liquidating all those those who don't commit.
Bluescluestoothpaste@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 2d
I mean i think the money going to bombs is the worst part, i don't feel too bad about paying for someone else's healthcare
moldy_rice@piefed.keyboardvagabond.com · 24 pts · 3d
I can't imagine how it must feel to be a Palestinian-American refugee in the US.
They're literally funding the genocide of their own family by paying taxes (as are the rest of US)
SoloCritical@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 3d
This is assuming they’re not already all rounded up by ICE.
moldy_rice@piefed.keyboardvagabond.com · 7 pts · 3d
No, you still have to pay taxes. Even when you're actively being tortured in a cage.
BC_viper@lemmy.world · 23 pts · 4d
Fuck isreal. It should be wiped off the map.
moldy_rice@piefed.keyboardvagabond.com · 1 pts · 3d
That would mean killing Palestinians, which is what they're already doing.
Professorozone@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 4d
I thought we needed those bombs? Didn't Biden cause the problem by giving away all our precious bombs to Ukraine, not TACO with his Iran war? So I guess the shortage must be over if we have enough to give to Israel. Such a relief to know we are safe again.
Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 3d
Different bombs. These are dumb bombs, US can't get close enough to Iran to use these. They tried already and lost aircraft. So they have to use guided bombs and missiles.
Israels genocide is uncontested, so they have no issues dropping dumb bombs.
Professorozone@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3d
It was my understanding most of it was WWII surplus.
nwtreeoctopus@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 3d
The WWII surplus basically doesn't exist outside museums. The vast majority would have been used (especially in training) or updated. Even just chemical instability and environmental degradation would have made anything too dangerous to really leave in an arsenal.
Professorozone@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3d
Maybe it was old surplus, but not WWII. I heard that on a YouTube channel called Luke Beasley.
Rubanski@discuss.tchncs.de · 1 pts · 3d
WWII surplus would have been used in Korea or the Vietnam war I would assume
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 2d
to be fair, Biden also gave lots of bombs to Israel
Professorozone@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
Yes but he failed to drop them on Iran.
Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca · 17 pts · 3d
I thought they were running out of bombs for their own "war"?
Mrkawfee@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 3d
You don't need guidance systems when you're dropping munitions indiscriminately on women and children.
Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 3d
TBF when the Americans use guided munitions, they tend to drop them on an awful lot of innocents.
Thebeardedsinglemalt@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 3d
Including a girls school
Hueristic_Autistic@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
"Guided"
electric_nan@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 3d
These are big-ass bombs used to blow up schools and hospitals. We have plenty, since that's what we love doing. What we're short on is air-defence missiles, like patriots, since we aren't used to anyone bombing back.
Mulligrubs@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 3d
Israel was founded by USA and UK after WW2 for a reason.
Since founding, the USA has always funded their military. Not only did you buy the bombs, tanks, and so on, your parents did too, and your grandparents, and your great grandparents (if you are American, anyway). There's a reason that every President I know of has flown out to Israel and visited the Prayer Wall and worn the little hat. It's considered vital to our strategic interests in the area (that's not my assessment).
... and not only Israel! If memory serves, Saudi Arabia and Egypt have also received a lot of military aid.
... and money! So much money is funneled to ME, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Iraq, and more.
There are few things in life that you can count on, and that's death, taxes, and US military aid to Israel.
This is one thing that bOtH pArTiEs agree on, there's no "anti-Israel" voting option.
ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 3d
That's one thing people don't get. Folks have been sick of Israel's shit since I've been born. We stopped complaining because it does no good.
Bluescluestoothpaste@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 2d
Folks yes, corporations no
aesthelete@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 3d
Rollingstone doing the Lord's work with this one.
SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.social · 14 pts · 4d
I thought if we didn’t vote Harris this genocide would stop.
FrostyTheDoo@lemmy.world · 33 pts · 4d
I was told if I voted for her we'd be in a war with Iran by now. The person that told me that has since "stopped caring" about politics
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · -1 pts · 3d
I was told the genocide would be good if it was a Dem doing it!
sharps89@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 3d
Strawman.
No one said this, ever!
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · -2 pts · 3d
No shit, lmao, it's called hyperbole.
starik@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 3d
No, strawman was correct.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · -6 pts · 3d
No, it wasn't.
abcdqfr@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 3d
Idk guise. Maybe the DNC is to blame for pushing unpopular candidates to representation. Idk. Something something two parties something constitution...
wewbull@feddit.uk · 4 pts · 3d
They're trying to stop it..... with lots of bombs so there's no one left to kill
normalentrance@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 3d
They were both not going to do anything about it. Trump is way worse though.
Sordid_Seraphim@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 2d
Damn so that's the problem, I voted Harris!
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 3d
The you're stupider than we gave you credit for, lol.
sharps89@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 3d
Please refrain from Ad Hominem attacks.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · -1 pts · 3d
It's hard when it comes to such colossal idiocy.
GripenGal@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 2d
100% that was sarcasm
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 2d
wait, are you saying she's no longer working tirelessly for a ceasefire?
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 3d
FTFY.
rumimevlevi@sh.itjust.works · -3 pts · 4d
I don't remember Harris promising to not send billions to Israel either
SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.social · 20 pts · 4d
In her closing pitch for the presidency of the United States, Democrat aspirant Kamala Harris has promised to end the war in Gaza.
A big problem with democracy is you have to assume people pay attention and are intelligent.
mycodesucks@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 3d
You're ALSO assuming that the people who who made that argument were doing so in good faith and ACTUALLY give a fuck about Gaza, and not trolls whose entire MO is to watch the world burn - a proposition I think you're giving them WAY too much credit with.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 3d
She also said she wouldn't do anything differently than Biden. Many times.
athatet@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 2d
Still would prefer that to what we have now.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 2d
Yes, because when the dems were doing their genocide, life was still comfortable in America, and you're very selfish.
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 2 pts · 3d
And Trump promised to restore peace in the Middle East.
FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Nobody thinks that of 'Muricans
rumimevlevi@sh.itjust.works · -6 pts · 4d
I asked about ending all aids and weapons to israel. Your article do not mention anything about that
SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.social · 13 pts · 4d
I wish Harris was president right now.
rumimevlevi@sh.itjust.works · -1 pts · 4d
Same. It would have exposed people like you. I also hope the dems will wins the midterm and next presidential election to expose how they was never against ending the war of aggression on Iran
mycodesucks@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 3d
I don't know who is paying you, but the war in Iran MIGHT have happened under Harris, but we know it DID happen under Trump, against the VEHEMENT opposition of EVERY SINGLE PERSON who would still be in power if he'd lost, Gaza is still fucked and EVERYBODY else is doing poorly on every measure too now. Fuck talking about the US - worldwide:
The environment is fucked, 50 degree summers are a foregone conclusion now, left-wing parties are being stomped across countries where they used to be either dominant or competitive, mass extinction and the most brutal El Nino in recorded history are about to steamroll the planet unimpeded, money that used to be used to protect the vulnerable in countries that were damaged by imperialism is instead being used to build useless monuments to nothing, government surveillance is on the rise in EVERY country, human rights are collapsing in most...
Even if you're an ignorant as fuck tankie, even the "socialist countries fighting the imperialist US" are doing demonstrably worse than they used to be, with the possible lone exception of North Korea, so whatever point you think you're making is laughable.
rumimevlevi@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 3d
Not a single word about the real victims of the war of aggression, theeht but Iranians civilians. You do not give a damn about the war you just use it for your shitty political game
Rothe@piefed.social · 5 pts · 3d
The war against Iran definitely wouldn't have happened under her. This is entirely about Trump being easily fooled by Nethanyahu and him really really wanting to be a wartime president. It is a very personal war and also why it is extra stupid.
Even Bush jr. who started wars left and right was not so stupid as to start one with Iran.
rumimevlevi@sh.itjust.works · 0 pts · 3d
Don't put words in my mouth
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 2d
I said literally the same thing voting for Biden in 2020.
It did expose them. And yet here they still are, pretending that centrist Dems are in any way different other than the rationales they give for empire.
SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.social · -3 pts · 4d
People who are against genocides like the one in Palestine by Israel, the one in Ukraine by Russia and China’s genocide of the Uyghurs?
rumimevlevi@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 4d
No anti genocide in Gaza would defend Kamala and act like she would save Palestinians similar to no trump defender are opposing genocide in Gaza
hark@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 4d
Are you talking about Kamala "my platform is whatever the party tells me it is" Harris? She's an opportunist asshole who'll say whatever she thinks will further her political career. This Harris?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McK8bPR8pzU
bunnybunny@lemmy.zip · 12 pts · 3d
Still better than a pedophile rapist who is robbing you blind hut I guess that is just what you’re in to
hark@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3d
Could we raise our standards, please?
bunnybunny@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 3d
You can start with not voting for a fraudulent pedophile maybe
hark@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 3d
I didn't vote for him.
bunnybunny@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 2d
Then vote against him
hark@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2d
I vote for democrats straight down the ballot every single time, including for Harris. I've never voted for a republican in my entire life. Voting doesn't work when there are only two sides and they both agree on the same thing like their full-throated support of genocide. The democratic party strategy of "at least we're slightly better than hitler" is not a winning strategy.
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 4 pts · 2d
What candidate did you vote for that wasn't supporting the genocide in Gaza?
FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 2d
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · -3 pts · 3d
As an outsider, the leader that collapses the US the fastest is the best choice, so good job!
starik@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 3d
The US isn’t going to collapse. Its immense wealth and power will simply be wielded differently depending on who controls it. And your preference is to hand that power to Trump, a preference held by other enemies of liberal democracies globally.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 3d
Lmao, Rome lasted forever too, buddy. And the sun never sets on the British empire!
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 3d
This is what liberals want.
marighost@piefed.social · -1 pts · 3d
Bad bot.
hark@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3d
Do you think someone licking AIPAC's ass would not support the genocide or are you identifying yourself as a bad hasbara bot?
Professorozone@lemmy.world · -10 pts · 4d
I think you mean my-platform-is-whatever-the-party-tells-me-it-is Harris.
You're welcome.
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 14 pts · 4d
Israel needs to take care of itself. This shit is ridiculous.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 3d
What do you think they're doing with the genocide, etc.? That's a primary goal of zionism. That's how zionists "take care" of themselves.
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 3d
What I mean is we shouldn't be footing the bill.
hark@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
The west should take care of israel the same way they took care of nazi germany.
urthoughtsrbad@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 3d
How does a leech take care of itself? Is blood sucking considered taking care of itself?
I would argue that it could be, although I’m not trying to defend blood sucking leeches.
Hueristic_Autistic@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 2d
No Medicare or Medicaid, no snap, no climate protection, gas crisis, housing crisis But but...... BUT!!!! MONEY FOR EXPLODY SHIT AND A MASS BRIBE!!!!!!!
betanumerus@lemmy.ca · 12 pts · 3d
trump doesn't have any money. his government is $40T in debt.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 7 pts · 3d
It's just imaginary numbers. They can print some paper or add some numbers on a computer if the extremely privileged are at all threatened.
Hueristic_Autistic@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
moldy_rice@piefed.keyboardvagabond.com · 2 pts · 3d
You realize that that debt is owned by rich people including him, right?
He has loads of money, and the taxpayers are giving it to him and his family long after he dies.
Taldan@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 3d
I doubt Trump personally holds any significant amount of bonds
ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 3d
Wealth is about resources and assets. You also don't need bonds to be rich, and you don't need treasury bonds to own debt.
Wtf would an 80 year old want bonds anyways? Unless they are maturing soon.
moldy_rice@piefed.keyboardvagabond.com · 1 pts · 3d
He became a billionaire in his presidency.
He isn't doing this for him. He inherited millions from his father, and he leveraged it (with crime) to turn it into billions for his children.
Bustedknuckles@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 4d
Make a list of all the US addresses; When israel uses the bombs, some people should get a letter thanking them for buying the bomb that was just dropped on X location. Would be good for folks to know where their taxes are going
moldy_rice@piefed.keyboardvagabond.com · 3 pts · 3d
Should include photos of the children and pregnant women and journalist killed.
You can bet Israel has their photos
maxthemummer@lemmus.org · 9 pts · 3d
Oh, so THAT'S where our DOGE checks are going!
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 3d
If it makes you feel any better, I hear they're putting Charlie Kirks face on all the warheads.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 13 pts · 3d
They got his neck wrong.
FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 2d
nah, that's where it blows up
bold_atlas@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Only the most overtly penis-shaped weapons for Charlie.
WanderWisley@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 3d
Oh good my tax dollars will be spent blowing up more innocent people. So much winning!
sportsjorts@lemmy.zip · 8 pts · 3d
Can’t we just fucking send them trump? Fuck APAIC and fuck Israel. Nutsacks.
Bluescluestoothpaste@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 2d
For real, make trump prime minister of israel he can fix all their problems on day one
BillCheddar@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 2d
Trump: I'm so pro-life that I rape whatever kids I can't bomb.
wirebeads@lemmy.ca · 7 pts · 4d
America’s cooked.
P1nkman@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 4d
Always has been.
hoppeduponcoffee@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 3d
I’ve always appreciated RS for providing actual leftist reporting AKA, truthful coverage of politics.
Loce@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2d
It's not like USA has a free public healthcare to worry about, they need to spend our money on something, might as well be weapons... right?
Remember fellow Americans, in midterm you better vote for Trump, let's kill more people, more kids, let's send more weapons to Middle East, what's the worst that can happen? 10$ for gallon? Daddy says its a small price to pay...
bold_atlas@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
He just erased
From: Bidenand put his name.korazail@eviltoast.org · 6 pts · 2d
We've gotta stop doing this chatter.
Yes, we know establishment dems are also pro israel.
Are you actively trying to help tank dem chances in the mid terms? Do you think repubs will be better?
I don't get the desired effect of this comment other than to make people depressed and sad and not bother voting for the least bad option which will have the effect of allowing the more bad option to win. I get the "burn it down" team, but there are lots of us who aren't there and think that's going to be miserable for ages.
But we have hope. There's been a surge of SocDems winning and they are making waves, getting positive press, and the republicans have shat the bed so bad that their base is noticing.
You can also help instead of harm by joining your local democratic organization, helping find better candidates to vote for and supporting them, and voting in the primaries. If you're not doing all of that, then please be quiet.
bold_atlas@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
I'll just go ahead and admit it. Let's lay it all out. Straight up: I won't be voting for Biden this election and I hope no else does either.
But yeah I really wish he wasn't running for president again...in a midterm election. Cause if he wasn't then I'd say we could at least vent honestly a little about the heinous things he was involved in with out being brow beat about it. Bad mouthing the party in general? Yeah probably not the best thing to be doing now. But Biden? Nah fuck him.
Radical_Socialist_t00t@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 2d
You do realize who the puppet-president is doesn't matter right? You're voting for a party and for your pathetic country it means : shit vs shittier.
So grow up and vote for shit before shittier takes away voting altogether. Then worry about dragging the needle further left. US people are so dumb...
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 1d
"yeah, don't worry about the future effects - there's always only one election!"
Remember when people were talking about how they were going to push Biden left after he was elected in 2020? Good times!
starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 2d
Well Republicans may be actively killing Americans, cutting all research funding and solar and infrastructure, ruining trade relations, starting and continuing several wars, doing exactly as much as the dems do on Israel, just with even more support towards it, making bills to say trans people are mentally ill, pushing religion in schools, cutting education, and about 1000 other literally evil things.
BUT! dems support Israel instead of Russia. Who cares about the Iran war I guess. They also only passed 7 huge bills while having a tiny majority. Both sides.
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 1d
"guys, I know they support the genocide, but my team might lose if you don't stop talking about it!"
Your chance to fix this was in 2016. Last one was in 2020.
At this point, you're locked in.
korazail@eviltoast.org · 1 pts · 1d
This is the 'burn it down' crowd comment.
paraphrased: "Things are bad there, but we can make things bad here too so that things are just bad everywhere and people will suddenly revolt"
I'm in my local org, promoting candidates I want before we get to the national level. What have YOU done other than comments on a forum a few thousand (mostly already on your side) people will see? I'm pro Palestine and anti-genocide, but I don't see a way to _get there_ without adding violence without aiming for grass-roots level activism. Hence the point of my comment. The republicans did it; stop fighting me and fucking help.
Can we not agree that genocide is bad, the established leadership is bad, that we can find and elect better people, and that we can use momentum to get good things done? To me, the alternative is hopeless despair and just giving up.
Is that what you're selling? Because that seems fucked up and I'm not buying. Because Fucking Please - tell me how you are are solving the genocide right now.
My personal choices in both those years was not one of the options. So I voted, effectively the limit of my personal power since I'm not a billionaire, for the one closest to that. I'm one of ~350M people and I have an outsized impact because I'm trying to influence others.
Guess I should stop trying to push people to get more involved... I'm sure that will fix it.
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 1d
No, I never advocate despair.
Organization and preparing dual power is more important than ever. That's why I spend a good deal of my time and money on.
I mean, I don't necessarily agree with that myself, but I'm not demanding others make that choice.
I am saying that putting hopes on only electoralism is not a good idea. And particularly if you're not going to actually challenge the current Democratic party, but continue the absolutely failed strategy of the US left in falling in line with it. 2020 should have taught anyone that.
I'm quite willing to help, and I've been doing it for decades. Part of why I'm bothering to spend my time arguing (instead of working on plenty of other projects I do contribute to in my community) is because this is important. The tactic of lesser evil is not only not helping, it is ACTIVELY hurting the cause.
My advice to anyone in the US is to either get ou if you can - or get armed and organized. That's what I mean by you're locked in - the time where voting someone nice in was going to resolve this and give the empire a gentle landing is probably gone. The diesel prices are up and ain't coming down.
korazail@eviltoast.org · 1 pts · 12h
I like the discourse - it can teach me, it can teach you, it can teach others who are staying quiet - it's why I engage with the possible trolls. I apologize for my tone. I'm frustrated.
I'd like to point out, though, that you have changed your argument.
My original point was, paraphrased: if genocide is your #1 issue, there's a clear party that will make things worse, and a party that will likely maintain the existing problems. With regards specifically to voting in the US mid terms, there are effectively three choices: Vote republican, vote democratic, don't vote. Two of those 3 choices will likely result in the genocide getting worse. Anyone implying, in this context, that Biden was 'just as bad' is "ACTIVELY hurting the cause" as you put it, as it will potentially reduce democratic turnout and increase the chances republicans retain power. Republicans in power will result in making things worse. Proof: The last two years.
If you can't see that causal effect, then I can't help you. This is not a 'my side might not win', this is 'my side winning is the better of the outcomes even if it's not a fix'. And it's not even a 'my side' because they don't represent me completely -- they are just closer to what I want than the other team and our politics are very A vs B.
Now, am I advocating that people should just vote dem and pretend they've washed their hands of the issue? No. The best time to be involved was in 2014, or maybe 1914. The next best time to be involved was in 2016, 2018, 2020, etc. Vote for least harm in the election, but then help find and elect better candidates. We are seeing this working. Look to New York City. Do the SocDems own the party yet? No, but they are gaining traction. Erasing that gain via demoralization is harmful.
You pivoted away from the genocide issue, though, and into the broader issue of US politics being messed up. I suggested there was no other path forward other than one involving revolt and violence. You stated "get [out] if you can - or get armed and organized". Neither of those really work:
*I live in a purple state. I fully understand the people that move away to a blue state, but all that does is concentrate the votes in a way that advantages the red voters. This is just how our system works**. Expand this to a world stage to consider people leaving the US.I don't judge those people, but staying put is a sacrifice I'm willing to make myself if it prevents the violence others advocate; the violence that will occur if the US manages to become entrapped by the current republican party. They have clearly stated that democrats are less than human, so once there's no check on their power they will try to kill us and we'll have to fight back.
**If anything, democratic voters need to move into red states and make everyone purple. I did the math a while ago, and I'm not doing it again, but the margin in some house district in like Montana was <1000. 1000 Californians moving would flip a house seat forever, and likely make life in that city more vibrant. Scale that up to states and eventually, we'd get discourse back to a point where things weren't so polarized. I know this is a dream, though.
I'm open to other ways to fix things. I just don't see them. We either do it via legal channels like elections or shoot all the fascists, and I'm not there yet and afraid of what will happen if we get there.
What is your suggestion? Where's the middle ground where you don't advocate for violence?
(You can quote me and refute or respond to my claims. Before you do that, though, propose your solution.)
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 6h
I'm sorry, I don't find brushing support of genocide away as "likely maintain the existing problems" to be a real position.
What you're saying is you're fine excusing the genocide if you get other things instead.
It's very unclear what you're talking about. Deescalate what? You want to deescalate conflict with the GOP?
mysticalone@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 3d
nooo my $5000!
madcaesar@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
Fuck every triple Trumper and every non voter
Mulligrubs@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Why do you think non-voters would vote for Trump alternatives? Just as likely to vote for Trump.
what's the vitriol for?
hark@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
Could they drop them off on top of the knesset?
Arancello@aussie.zone · -14 pts · 4d
yup, you americans voted for this, and after two years of theft, bribery and wanton destruction? you still do nothing.
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 29 pts · 4d
The fuck do you expect us to do? Most of us are one missed paycheck away from homelessness.
hitmyspot@aussie.zone · 3 pts · 4d
Do what you can to fight back. Trying to survive is how they want you kept busy. Stop buying consumerist things. Stop shopping at Walmart and target and Amazon. Join community groups. Vote. Attend rallies.
You personally may already do that bit most don't. Union membership is down globally. Big tech is taking control and hasn't had a useful product in a generation.
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 3d
How do you propose we get a significant amount of people to do that? Hell, there's a lot of places where Walmart might be the only choice, and if there is another choice it's Dollar General, which is in some ways even worse than Walmart.
I can't even really afford "consumerist things" (whatever that means, in my house we're barely treading water with just the essentials at this point.
wewbull@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 3d
What have you tried so far?
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 3d
What have you tried so far?
wewbull@feddit.uk · 4 pts · 3d
Not my country.
...but in my country I'm a member of a few human right organisations and I lend some time to local political efforts. It's not much, but it's more than most.
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 3d
There have been protests all over the country all summer.
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 2d
if you mean No Kings . . . no, those are parades.
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 2d
You're a moron.
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 2d
sure thing. Make sure you don't block traffic!
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 2d
Make sure to pull your head out of your ass.
LuannePlatter@infosec.pub · -2 pts · 3d
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 3d
Yes, I've been to some. Why do you care?
LuannePlatter@infosec.pub · 0 pts · 3d
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 3d
I'm not genociding anyone and have no say over what the nut in the Whitehouse does. I find it odd that your username is a King of the Hill character though. Don't come at me for shit I have no control over.
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 2d
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 1 pts · 3d
Something tells me the people who participated in the Civil Rights Movement weren't exactly swimming in money either.
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 3d
Protests have been going on non-stop since day one of the administration.
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · -1 pts · 3d
These "protests" are almost all weekend parades. If the Civil Rights Movement was like this it would've ended up a footnote in history. You should look up what MLK and crew actually did to get where they ended up. And of course, the Civil Rights Movement did employ wasn't as peaceful as the textbooks would have you believe. So I guess what I want to say is: Do what MLK did then you can say you tried.
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 3d
Yes, let's riot under an administration that's itching to call for nation wide marshal law.
You don't live here, do you? If that's the case, then I forgive your ignorance on the situation we're in. Otherwise, what are you doing?
NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io · 2 pts · 3d
I don't, in fact, live in America, but also the problem here is that your democracy has no future unless you do something. The time where this could be resolved without significant personal risk is long past. If you think the risk of regime retaliation is worse than the risk of living under MAGA for the next two decades, then sure, but know that those are the options you're looking at here.
JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 3d
I don't think you understand the likelihood of what you want resulting in our deaths. They've already killed numerous protesters. I live 1,100 Miles from DC. Hell, the closest real city is a hundred miles from me. I feel like you don't understand the size and how spread out the country is. You seem to have this idea that we can just flip the do something switch and things magically happen.
You want to believe that you're just better than us and that it can't happen in your country, when it has likely already begun.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 3d
Fash put people in cages for 30 years just for having zines.
Let's be clear about what we're dealing with.
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net · 25 pts · 4d
Most Americans did not vote for this.
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social · 1 pts · 3d
Around 30-something% of people voted for Harris. The rest voted for pedohitler or didn't vote. If you didn't vote, you helped pedohitler be where it is.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 3d
"If you don't participate in an evil system, then you're responsible for it."
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net · 5 pts · 3d
Nah. Fuck the US government we don't have control of it. US isn't a real democracy if it ever was.
I mean I agree people should vote and do more to stop fascism but failing to do so doesn't make you responsible for other people's actions. Frankly if all you're doing is voting for Harris in this current disaster then you are barely better than a non-voter anyway.
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social · 0 pts · 3d
Yes, it does. If your choices are Hitler and someone you disagree with but who's not Hitler and you don't vote, you're saying that both Hitler and the other person are OK for you. So yeah, you are accepting that getting Hitler as president is fine.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 3d
Imagine believing there's a non-hitler choice in USA. jfc.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 3d
The two choices were Hitler. Biden was in the middle of a genocide and then trump came in and continued it.
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net · -4 pts · 3d
Or maybe you fell for disinformation or maybe you just weren't paying attention or maybe you thought your vote was more impactful boosting a third Party candidate because your state wasn't going to be close anyway or maybe you couldn't get off work that day and they closed the polling station near your house so it would have taken 2 hours by bus and you'd have gotten fired.
Lots of reasons people didn't do the optimal thing around voting. Some of those are more excusable than others but none make you directly responsible for the things Trump and his followers are doing. They are responsible for their own actions. We are responsible for our own. That's all.
And again, I personally don't think we will get out of this solely by voting. People need to stop limiting political action solely to making a largely inconsequential mark on a piece of paper.
im_fine_sandy@nord.pub · 3 pts · 3d
Actually, that's not really true I'm sorry.
Trump is America's great shame. He has harmed people financially all over the world, and he has presided over a dramatic increase in greenhouse gas emissions.
In the same way todays Australians bear the responsibility for attrocities perpetrated on first nations people before we were born, Americans for generations to come will bear responsibility for Trump.
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 2d
I think we have an ethical obligation to do what we can to stop him, because there are some levers of power we have access to that can harm his power. Voting is one of them, and I encourage people to do it. Tax resistance, protesting, organizing work, and direct action are even more effective, so arguably between people who solely vote and solely do those things, the voters are not pulling their weight.
But having an ethical responsibility to act and being directly, personally responsible are two different things. You fundamentally can't blame people for the actions of someone else. That's not right. No matter what the non-fascists in the US do, the fascists are going to continue trying to do all the horrible things they do. And due to their various illegal and unethical schemes, they've rigged the electoral system to give them minority rule.
The only reason people believe stuff like this is because of nationalism. People are indoctrinated to believe that nations are some homogeneous cohesive entity. Nations aren't real. They're just artificial collections of individuals only united by the systemic oppression of the state. It's not much different than gender or racial essentialism. And it's the same reason Israelis blame all Palestinians for Oct 7th instead of merely the soldiers and leaders who carried it out. This is the logic of collective punishment, and it should be attacked everywhere it appears.
Zaktor@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 3d
People really overestimate in how much of the US a person's vote for president matters. Like 2/3rds of the states aren't even within reach of a wave election. And the people who could have an impact on the result but stayed home aren't in a niche politics forum and are really checked out of politics. Like shockingly so. A non-voting acquaintance of mine was going to vote for a conservative nobody because he thought their name sounded cool.
The idea that the 30% non-voters should vote makes sense in a civic ideal sort of way, but they're not going to show up as secret defenders of liberal democracy. They're going to be very susceptible to propaganda and those that aren't are going to vote for Idiocracy-level dumb reasons. Trump's initial election made big gains from non-voters who are now shocked that he's doing things he said he'd do.
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 2d
Harris supported sending billions in weapons to Israel and did so. So you voted for this as well.
LuannePlatter@infosec.pub · -2 pts · 3d
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net · 2 pts · 3d
Yeah I agree. That's the biggest problem.
oxysis@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 19 pts · 4d
Huh? Have you not been paying even the slightest bit of attention to what people are saying about what’s been happening here? Almost no one likes what is happening. Most people want meaningful change, just look at the amount of socialists getting wins in the past few months. We aren’t rioting, sure. But we are trying, we are making noise and making progress.
matlag@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 3d
I see all the hope put in the socialists. I do hope they get enough power to change things. Because otherwise, arguing on who votes for whom is almost a moot point:
https://act.represent.us/sign/problempoll-fba/
It's only about choosing between people screwing you politely and with decent manners vs gross and vulgar.
tidderuuf@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 4d
You see what ICE is armed with? No thx man. My state says I shouldn't even have a firearm and that I should trust the popo.
moldy_rice@piefed.keyboardvagabond.com · 3 pts · 3d
Even with that, folks are fighting against it (both nonviolently and with arms), and they're getting tortured and murdered for their resistance
hark@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 4d
We didn't vote our way into this and we cannot vote our way out of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlKmWa8p4UM
Any action you could possibly suggest that could make a major immediate impact would be illegal and would be cracked down upon harshly. People have been protesting the whole time but they're either ignored or quashed, and it'll only get worse thanks to the massive AI surveillance state that the parasites get wet dreams about. We can only hope the actions we take will move the needle at some point, but there is an immense force holding up israel.
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 2d
get a rifle, or get out is the long and short of it
mattyroses@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 2d
It wasn't just 2 years. Both major parties support funding this genocidal state.
redwattlebird@thelemmy.club · 1 pts · 3d
To be fair to USians, their voting and ejection system is total crap.
rumimevlevi@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 4d
Americans voted for genocide since the creation of israel
CannonFodder@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 4d
America was basically founded on genocide.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 2d
Basically?