Many international fans visiting the US for the World Cup have become frustrated by the culture of tipping servers, telling the BBC that tipping fatigue has set in.
England supporter Geoff Pryor said he understood tipping for good service, but he found it "weird" when buying a bottle of water and "they try to get a tip for doing nothing".
In the US, staff at some restaurants and bars are paid just over $2 (£1.50) an hour, and they expect customers to tip about 20% of the total cost of the bill so they can earn a living.
Frustrations have also been shared by hospitality staff, with one bar owner telling the BBC that many World Cup tourists have been bad tippers.
190 Comments
aarch0x40@piefed.social · 192 pts · 38d
Let's fix this headline.
American's Confused By Fair Wage Practices of Civilized Countries
4shtonButcher@discuss.tchncs.de · 22 pts · 37d
The article could start like this:
fartographer@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 37d
Ci... Civ... Civ-il... Civil-i? Civil-iz? Civil rights? CIVIL RIGHTS COUNTRIES?! Does your country's ICE know about this???
Tm12@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 36d
If there’s a problem, yo, they’ll solve it. Institutionalized racism, no laws to resolve it. ICE ICE baby
fartographer@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 36d
Really putting that vanilla in the ICE
merc@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 37d
Which American?
CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 37d
You know who! It's the American with the Confused. He owns it!
Babalugats@feddit.uk · 85 pts · 38d
Should read:
Frustrations have also been shared by hospitality staff, with one bar owner telling the BBC that many World Cup tourists have been making staff aware that I and other businesses are bad employers.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 30 pts · 37d
Yeah, why's the bar owner being quoted in a paragraph about the frustrations of hospitality staff? He's the one not paying them a fair wage and expecting the customers to subsidize his payroll!
tomiant@piefed.social · 1 pts · 36d
And he is.
Babalugats@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 36d
Making others aware? (commendable)
or
A bad employer? (not so commendable)
Anarki_@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 83 pts · 38d
Well if you travel to the US for the World Cup you're either ignorant as fuck or you like the direction they're going and want to sponsor it.
You chose to go. Stay and suffer or leave and get better.
ohulancutash@feddit.uk · -8 pts · 37d
Or maybe they like football?
Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works · 38 pts · 37d
I like cocaine but I'm not going to hang out in rural Colombia anytime soon.
theuniqueone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 32 pts · 37d
You can like football and not support america and FIFA's blatant corruption.
Paddzr@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 37d
This is Lemmy sir, only extremes are allowed here.
Fuck you for having hobbies, you should 110% dedicate yourself to fighting foreign country at any cost!
homes@piefed.world · 68 pts · 38d
We don’t pay our workers, lol. That’s on you!
CanIFishHere@lemmy.ca · 63 pts · 37d
It is completely out of control. I have been asked to tip at self operated vending machines. WTF?
AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world · 64 pts · 37d
That's because vending machines aren't actually paid at all and rely entirely on tips. Little known fact.
CanIFishHere@lemmy.ca · 18 pts · 37d
Damn. What a heartless bastard I am.
SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 37d
Stop being a robophobe
tomiant@piefed.social · 5 pts · 36d
Clankist.
lenocolomo@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 37d
Genius.
WhoIsTheDrizzle@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 37d
They're unconfigured PoS systems. Look at all the different PoS solutions out there. You never know where or when to tap your credit card, hit yes before or after the transaction is initiated. It's generally smaller vendors not configuring non-out-of-the-box solutions. Simple as that.
Schmuppes@lemmy.today · 43 pts · 37d
Kinda weird that US culture tends to demonize handouts, yet handouts in the shape of tips are expected and you're a bad person for not providing them.
pachrist@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 36d
Aha, but the great old USA love to think it's a meritocracy, and since tipping is something that was originally merit based, it's a very American expression. You work a little harder, you get a little extra.
But also, in a uniquely American way, capitalism turned tipping a moral dilemma.
skisnow@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 36d
Also, tipping is a way to legalize paying marginalized groups less. It enables a system where young attractive White people make more money for the same work.
PhoenixDog@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 36d
Handouts are accepted based solely upon how much money you make.
If you're poor? You're a leech on society.
If you're rich? You clearly know money and you'll obviously invest that back into the economy and it'll trickle down to the poor people any minute now.
NotAnonymousAtAll@feddit.org · 3 pts · 36d
Handouts to people are demonized.
Handouts to companies are perfectly fine.
Tips get a pass because everyone (at least instinctively) understands it is benefiting the company more than the people officially receiving it.
redlemace@lemmy.world · 36 pts · 38d
The price on the menu isn’t anywhere near the bill the expect you to pay at the end.
Bill = menu-price + taxes + 20% tip
(where 20% is just a rough average)
Zephyr@sh.itjust.works · 30 pts · 38d
These days I've seen people trying to push 30% to 40% as the minimum tip. Either that or they sneak it in with service charges or gratuity fees with a suggestion of a 25% tip on top.
magnetosphere@fedia.io · 17 pts · 38d
I’ve seen that, too, and it’s INCREDIBLY sleazy.
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 38d
It’s been sleazy for a while, the automatically calculated tips almost always calculate the tip on the total including tax. Wtf…we’re expected to tip the government now, too?
TheGoldenV@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 37d
When I notice this I recalculate and don’t return
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 37d
Fuck that, those people are psychos. It's not going to catch on.
[fetch.jpg]
Zephyr@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 37d
Unfortunately it's catching on, and if you read half the comments here you will find people backing it up because the poor workers won't be paid any other way almost as if restaurant workers weren't paid another way in the past.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 37d
Well I'm still gonna tip 20% and if they think that's not high enough then they can cry about it cause next time I'll tip them 15%.
If they want 25% then they'd better give fucking exceptional service, and I don't just mean being polite yet insincere and using all the tired robotic phrases that they're programmed to do in OJT. I know "cookie-cutter waiter response" when I hear one.
If they want higher than 25% then they can fucking blow me...
Zephyr@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 37d
I'm still pinned at 15% although I mainly stay out of the country somewhere where tipping is what it used to be aka totally optional and highly appreciated. Tipping everywhere even 5% would be very strange behavior here.
Zephyr@sh.itjust.works · 35 pts · 38d
Don't worry American citizens are also confused by the expensive tipping culture in the US. I still maintain 15% for a good job, 10% for a mediocre job, 5% for anything below. Giving above 15% is just subsidizing the pay the employer should be giving. It's a symptom of the fact that wages have stagnated for over 50 years. The pay that once supported someone and even a child is now far below the poverty line for even an individual. So instead of increasing pay to match what it once was many businesses have turned to aggressive tipping over just increasing the prices of their service / products.
BruisedMoose@piefed.social · 12 pts · 38d
Talking about restaurant dining only... My baseline is 20%. Higher for breakfast and/or a great job. Shave some off for truly bad experiences.
I 100% agree that servers should be paid a full living wage before tips. But the truth is, they survive entirely on their tips. Not tipping over 15% isn't sending a message to the employer or the industry. The only person that is impacting is your server who probably doesn't even get to keep 100% of what you leave and makes an hourly rate that's probably 50% or lower of the minimum wage.
My hometown has a lot of restaurants and a few years back had a measure on the ballot to ensure that servers were actually paid the full hourly minimum wage by their employer. Somehow, the servers were convinced that it would be a bad thing and were against it. The measure failed.
Zephyr@sh.itjust.works · 10 pts · 38d
I have to put my money where my mouth is. Generally speaking i have decreased eating out and generally avoid dining in locations where tipping is customary. I absolutely avoid like the plague locations that automatically suggest the minimum tip should be 20%+. That said even the completely automated car wash down the way asks if I want to tip now so I have doubts that tips go to that individual worker or to the workers at all in every circumstance.
If everyone behaved the same then this culture of businesses offloading their employees income directly onto individuals would end very quickly. Tipping wasn't always like this, the tip used to just be a little extra people gave sometimes and now it's been weaponized by unscrupulous business owners.
jaaake@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 37d
Avoiding eating out is how you put your money where your mouth is. If your impact truly matters, that's how the restaurant owners/investors will see it.
As much as I don't like it, 20% is now the standard for tipping. Anything less than that you're sending a message, but the only possible interpretation of that message is that you don't like the service. There's no method for delivering your individual feelings about tipping culture through tipping less than everyone around you. There's no form on the receipt that gets collated and presented to decision makers.
In reality the only person you're harming in tipping under 20% is the server. Either they're taking home less money and nobody notices, or somebody is paying attention to how much each server is getting tipped and you just gave them a bad mark that management sees.
Zephyr@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 37d
Fair although I still think there's a debate between 15% and 20% being the default. Also I can totally eat out and avoid this issue all together, just eat at places that don't have tipping.
Spot@startrek.website · 3 pts · 37d
Society as a whole reducing or no longer tipping would make a big impact. My current State requires wait staff to be paid at the same standard state minimum all other positions have to. The employer has to make up wages to at least State minimum in one's that don't. Which is what the majority of the kitchen and bussers make. If servers are not getting Far better than minimum (at least at the dozens of chain restaurants I've worked at) they quit.
Boy though, would the transition (were it to occur) suuuuck for a lot of folks. So I don't even pretend to know the best way to start.
Should servers make more on average than cooks (who are responsiblefor both the taste and cleanliness of your food)? Probably an entirely different discussion.
Should a restaurant pay all workers a fair wage or go out of business because they rely on patrons to make up for their shiity pay hierarchy? I say yes.
I will also say, there is a difference between a chain restaurant and a local owned establishment. (Insert chain restaurant here) wants me to tip their servers 20% for a subpar service, just because it's expected? ... they can go suck socks. They can much better afford to pay each server that extra 20% than I. Aunt Margie's diner, who always has good food and what appears to be genuinely attentive and kind staff? Absofuckinglutely.
Side note. This is also why I always bring cash for tips, that way the server can opt to disclose what they wish. A real tip, in a fair world, imho, should be just for them. No taxes, no payroll accountancy.
....that got... long. Uhhh thanks for coming to my Ted talk?
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 7 pts · 37d
Same reason some workers are against unions. They've been deluded by corporate propaganda.
I've heard "But i make so much money in tips!" so many times. Then don't fucking complain whenever you get a slow day when you don't even make enough to pay for the gas it took to get you there and back!
BruisedMoose@piefed.social · 1 pts · 37d
Oh, absolutely. I should have put Somehow in quotes.
iamthetot@piefed.ca · 3 pts · 37d
Illegal everywhere in the USA. It is federal law that tipped wage workers must be paid the difference up to minimum wage if tips did not cover that gap.
theuniqueone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 37d
And almost impossible to sue over and get paid not to mention servers don't have the money for confronting their bosses but sure make excuses for the blatant exploitation.
iamthetot@piefed.ca · 4 pts · 37d
I'm not making excuses for exploitation. Servers are absolutely exploited in the US and the laws are dumb as hell. Servers, and everyone, deserves a liveable wage.
frongt@lemmy.zip · -2 pts · 37d
You don't need to sue. A couple people with paystubs can file a complaint with the state DoL and they'll investigate.
Of course this varies by state and will take months, but it's not like you have to pay to retain a lawyer.
BruisedMoose@piefed.social · 4 pts · 37d
I mean, yeah, but federal minimum wage is only $7.50 an hour. Hardly a livable wage anywhere in the country. The minimum for tipped workers in this town is $6.50 an hour. So at most an employer would need to cover $40 a week under that law.
iamthetot@piefed.ca · 3 pts · 37d
I did not claim that the federal minimum wage was liveable. That's a separate point and convo.
iamthetot@piefed.ca · 1 pts · 37d
Wait until you hear about the countries where they don't even tip 15%! You're sooo close.
tigermountain@lemmy.world · 33 pts · 37d
It's been known for some time that many of those from outside the US are unfamiliar with our tipping culture. I was a waiter in a nice restaurant in '96 when the Olympics were in Atlanta. We had lots of large parties that we added a 20% gratuity to, and clearly indicated on the check and no one complained. But normally the only place you encountered tipping then was in a sit-down restaurant with waiters. Now there's a thousand and one places where you're encouraged to tip. Even places where it's only counter service and you're supposed to put money in a tip jar when you pay the cashier. It's all over the place and it's completely ridiculous and out of hand. Americans hate it. It's no wonder our guests are confused and pissed off.
michel@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 37d
There are a few restaurants I have been to in the US that actually pay living wages and say tipping is optional. When the service is really good and you insist you want to tip they are generally over the moon.
justaman123@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 37d
I'm so torn about tipping culture, on the one hand it's bosses not paying workers as much as they deserve, on the other hand it's one job where workers can earn better than the cost of living doing a low skilled job. I also fully believe that anywhere there is a tip jar that gets pooled between workers there's someone in management skimming off the top.
gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 37d
It's also got a lot to do with the fact that we're talking about selfish dipshits who are willing to give business to FIFA and American businesses when our country has a fascist administration, of course douchebags like that are going to whine about everything
Tipping culture is obnoxious and needs to be dealt with at some point, but fuck these jerk ass tourist morons. Absolutely no solidarity to em.
lando55@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 37d
I don't know if that really does make up the majority of who we're talking about here. There are many football fans who are in it for the love of the game and are there to support their country with friends and family in what may be a once-in-a-lifetime experience. Not all of us are as clued-in as you are.
sportsjorts@lemmy.zip · 32 pts · 37d
Welcome to the wage slave states of America! Hopefully you get out before you find out how much I.C.E. costs here. Ha!
Seriously don’t come here if you value your safety or your possessions.
CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world · 30 pts · 37d
My favorite thing I saw recently in relation to tipping - was this sign at a restaurant about what the minimum wage was and encouraging tipping.
I'm assuming that sign was put up or at least tacitly endorsed by the management.
It's almost as if they don't have any agency over what they pay their own workers and they are then shaming customers into making up the difference? WTF?
ne0n@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 37d
Of course it was. Tipping is a scam by business owners to have customers pay wages so they don’t have to.
agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 36d
They kinda don't. To pay their workers an acceptable base wage, they'd have to raise their menu prices 20%. They can put up as many signs as they want explaining the prices, but customers are pretty bad at reading signs. Many, if not most, customers are just going to see the higher prices and go somewhere cheaper. It doesn't matter that the final price is the same, there's a reason the whole $X.99 is so prevalent, monkey brain see smaller number, think better value.
It's kind of a game of chicken, any one individual business that tries to eliminate tipping is going to risk losing customers to competitors. This isn't really a problem that can be fixed at the individual business level, it would require legislation that forces all businesses to raise prices roughly the same amount at the same time.
My_IFAKs___gone@lemmy.world · 26 pts · 37d
Outlaw tipping? Make it socially embarrassing and shameful to accept a tip? Make tipping in America like tipping in Japan?
theuniqueone@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 16 pts · 37d
Top do that you'd need to guarantee tip earning workers a minimum wage and raise the minimum wage so someone can actually survive with it.
My_IFAKs___gone@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 35d
Right. Pass a law outlawing tipping while simultaneously raising minimum wage. While they're at it, come up with some clever housing/renting laws that make it possible for minimum wage earners to have adequate housing. Also outlaw unhealthy foods at the supermarket and require healthy foods to taste good AND be affordable. Also universalize health care. Geez, if only I could be a despot. I'd be amazing.
hal_5700X@sh.itjust.works · 26 pts · 37d
Tipping culture is getting crazy.
NottaLottaOcelot@lemmy.ca · 14 pts · 37d
It’s gotten out of hand. I ordered winter boots via an online shoe store and the check-out prompt asked if I would like to tip. There’s a tip prompt when I buy a container of carrot sticks at the roadside convenience store.
I would love to do away with the awkward conversations about what I’m doing next while using the point of sale terminal at restaurants. The ritual of annoying small talk in the hope that I select 20% for a tip is tiresome.
Babalugats@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 36d
For some weird reason I read that whole post in the voice of the woman that does the virgin adverts in the UK.
NottaLottaOcelot@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 36d
For all you know, maybe I AM the voice of the ads!
Babalugats@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 36d
it's very possible.
ramble81@lemmy.zip · 23 pts · 38d
Just remember, tipping is optional. Don’t feel like you need to be guilted into doing it.
Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works · 11 pts · 37d
In the US servers cannot make anywhere near a living wage without it. It's a catch 22 and either legislation or businesses adopting policies is the only way to break it. One off opt outs are just futile protests at the expense of workers.
krashmo@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 37d
We're all making less than we should. Why is it my job to fix that for the dude that brought me a cheeseburger but not for the dude that fixed the curb in front of my house? One of those was way more useful to me than the other.
AugustWest@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 37d
Why should it be? It shouldn’t.
Why is it? Because the dude who brought you a cheeseburger makes a fraction of the hourly wage of the curb dude, and you chose to participate in the broken system by going to that restaurant.
krashmo@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 37d
Did I also choose to participate in the curb fixing business by having one outside my home, or is that a fact of the world outside my control?
NauticalNoodle@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 37d
Argon@tardigram.com · 3 pts · 37d
Maybe business owners can pay full wages, advertise full prices, and pay full taxes, but you and I know that's not going to happen in USA.
Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 37d
Agree it's really unlikely. We are dug in very deep with this. As these businesses start to get more aggressive with hidden fees and tip inflation I do think more people are getting fed up with it though. There may be some opportunity for political attention and legislative change. But yeah, it's pretty damn silly to be optimistic about much of anything in a shit hole country like the US.
jaaake@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 37d
In the US you're not breaking any laws by not tipping servers at a restaurant/bar, you're just being a dick.
In this capitalist hellscape, the minimum wage laws do not apply to restaurant/bar servers. Since these laws do not apply, it has become industry standard to not pay them based on their hourly wage, but on their predicted amount of tips. In most cases, this means paying them below minimum wage and their tips make up the difference. Not tipping does not affect the business and the people who control the business will not give a fuck. The only person you're harming or sending a message to is the worker, the wage slave.
This is supremely fucked up and there should be legislation to prevent it. It's difficult for fair business owners to compensate for this issue on their own because it means increasing menu prices by 20% and having clear messaging that explains why their prices are higher and that you should not tip. This is an extreme oddity and I (as someone who lives in a major city and eats out most meals) have only encountered it twice.
Jiral@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 37d
Are companies breaking the law by paying below minimum wage or are the laws useless? In both cases people that are not tipping are not the problem.
lolcatnip@reddthat.com · 4 pts · 37d
In most of the US, there is a separate, much lower minimum wage for tipped workers.
Jiral@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 37d
And there you have the problem.
ramble81@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 37d
So, just like a general strike, if people stopped tipping in masses it would have a profound downstream effect that would force change. But instead the owner class keeps the people fighting and subsidizing each other.
jaaake@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 37d
Yes. If people stopped tipping in masses, it would have a profound effect. In order to do that, you need to build up a movement large enough to gain attention. That's going to take time. All of the time that it takes to do so, you're actively harming people who usually have skills that are difficult to transfer to another industry. You have to convince a lot of other people to do harm with you in order to make a difference. It's a tough ask. This method, if successful, has an eventual benefit, but the cost of that benefit is difficult to justify, especially considering that success is both not guaranteed and requires participation on an unprecedented scale.
Fishnoodle@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 37d
Exactly. Also its not like you're going to run into those people again. Pay the price on the receipt, that's the only requirement.
tomiant@piefed.social · 21 pts · 36d
This shit is being pushed so much that I'm starting to think it's just more culture wars shit to keep sowing division between people
PhoenixDog@lemmy.world · 24 pts · 36d
Or... And hear me out...
America is a genuinely corrupt and exploitative country that your own society perpetuates by allowing these oppressive standards on your fellow low wage citizens to continue to be the norm.
Or, you know...
la508@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 36d
'No Way to Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 36d
I'm an American. I love my country, and I'm proud to call myself a patriot.
Unfortunately, you're right.
I just want people to know that there are genuinely good people here. There are countless kind, generous, and decent Americans, and there are so many things about this country that are worth loving.
My wife wasn't born here. She's only lived in the United States for about three or four years, and she has very strong opinions about our culture, society, and politics. I keep telling her that she arrived at one of the worst moments in recent American history.
I hate that this is the version of America the rest of the world is seeing. I know we're capable of being better than this, and I hope one day we'll prove it.
To everyone watching from abroad: I'm sorry. I wish we were showing you the best of America instead of the worst.
Tarambor@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 36d
"I keep telling her that she arrived at one of the worst moments in recent American history."
The whole thing around tipping in restaurants and bars has been a thing for decades in America.
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 35d
Yes but I was responding to the comment above not to the post itself... 🤷
Tiral@lemmy.world · -5 pts · 36d
Or.... And hear me out
Let's not generalize 345 million people.
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 35d
Your comment is morally defensible, yet on Lemmy and Reddit, saying "don't generalize an entire country's population" often gets heavily downvoted. Years ago, I was even permanently banned from r/Ukraine for arguing that ordinary Russians shouldn't be demonized because of the actions of their government.
I suspect this is driven by a mix of factors: nationalism, prejudice, the emotional impact of war, and the tendency to view conflicts in terms of collective guilt. When people are angry or grieving, nuance is often the first casualty.
Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 36d
It absolutely is. Trump created the July 2025 law "No Tax on Tips."
trackball_fetish@lemmy.wtf · 18 pts · 37d
You think that's bad? We have ads on our gas pump handles and a 'donation' question everytime we use a pos
bier@feddit.nl · 1 pts · 36d
Unfortunately my local gas station (Netherlands) also puts ads on the pumps. Glad I never have to go there anymore (recently switched to an EV)
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 17 pts · 37d
Dont visit here. Problem solved.
Vrag@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 36d
That's not happening. Football fans are irrational, they'll follow their teams anywhere, no matter how bad, even places like qatar or us.
DJKJuicy@sh.itjust.works · 17 pts · 37d
Im an American and I tip because it's how servers get paid in the US.
I've also been to other countries where restaurants just, ya know, pay their employees.
It's not complicated. Just give your employees money in exchange for their labor. Somehow other countries just pay their employees and amazingly they still have restaurants and bars.
Argon@tardigram.com · -1 pts · 37d
That's how they get paid but that's also how they are extorted on every service and that's another way to evade taxes.
Because of that US tiping isn't culture, is a crime. At least in the EU.
Iambus@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 36d
This is why no one should ever visit the States for holidays. Lots of better countries to go that don't have this bullshit.
stylusmobilus@aussie.zone · 16 pts · 37d
Fuck this is a difficult one.
Tipping culture is a throwback to slavery times and is very typical of the predatory nature that exists within employment in the US. The position that customers need to pay a tip because the server needs a liveable wage that isn’t covered by employers and built into law is essentially being held hostage due to an unfair system.
That said, waitstaff depend on this for a liveable wage and by not paying the tip, you’re denying that worker fair income. It’s not their fault directly, it’s the system they are under.
Looking from the outside, it comes back to the same thing; the reluctance of Americans to engage in building a decent society by collectively voting to build that, rather than voting or even not voting at all to take care of themselves. Again, it’s another case of ‘you get out what you put in’. A 60% voter turnout reflects the quality of what’s been elected and makes it easy for bad actors to get what they want, especially when their base does turn out.
To get those things, they need to at least vote and vote for people who will give them the things they want like legislated, decent wages. Sometimes it also means some hardship or compromise. Here, that means wait staff would be giving up the potential of big tips for the benefit of decent wages and perhaps healthcare.
Personally? Of course I’d tip them; I’m in Rome so I’d do as the Romans do and I’m aware that's their income. I’d also feel like I was held hostage by a shithouse, predatory system brought about by Americans lack of care for their own people though.
ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip · 7 pts · 37d
You'd own and rape slaves too?
No? So there is a Rubikon that you don't cross after all?
Dearth@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 37d
If I was a tourist in Rome, and the only currency was raping a slave then i wouldn't visit rome. But if I was visiting Rome and knew that the people serving me food needed to be paid directly because they would otherwise starve and become destitute then i would pay the Roman workers directly as is the custom of Rome.
Honytawk@discuss.tchncs.de · -2 pts · 37d
If they would starve when we don't give them handouts, they should riot and change the system. Not blame tourists.
Cosmonauticus@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 36d
Easy as hell to say when you don't say to do it yourself. Revolution is bloody and things more often than not end up worse after. Especially with how heavily armed US police forces are
Only the naive would think that a mass riot would somehow make things better.
Dearth@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 36d
paying their exploiters while telling the exploited how to solve their problems. i bet you think rapists are justified when they rape people in revealing clothes
stylusmobilus@aussie.zone · 0 pts · 35d
Of course. I do that now where I live, why would I not do that in Rome.
I’d kill and eat their unplanned babies too, I’m atheist.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 0 pts · 37d
Yeah and it's much closer to "I'll pay a little more to make sure that person can afford to eat today" than, "owning and raping slaves".
Honytawk@discuss.tchncs.de · 2 pts · 37d
The point of that argument is to give an example on why the other argument does not make sense.
"When in Rome, do as the Romans" is bullshit. No matter the context.
ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 36d
Well, no, don't go crazy here. Changing some of the behaviour is okay. For example, when I visit foreign countries I try to greet people in their native tongue. When in Brasil during the Carnival I dance on the streets, in Germany in October observe Oktoberfest, when in Zurich on weekend snort cocaine, you know - harmless stuff ;-)
NotAnonymousAtAll@feddit.org · 3 pts · 36d
As a German I could write a lot more about this, but I'll keep it short:
Please don't!
9488fcea02a9@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 37d
So anyone who is underpaid at work should ask customers to pay extra instead of taking it up with their boss? Should grocery store staff start spitting in people's food if customers dont hand over 20% more money at the checkout?
I'm all for supporting workers and i begrudgingly tip in our broken system most of the time... but i cant stand the entitlement of service staff who get pissed about bad tippers... take it up with your boss...
This is just the rich business owners (who are underpaying their staff) dividing the working class by framing this as the fault of the customer (typically also working class people...)
So now waitstaff are complaining about bad tippers and fighting other workers rather than focusing on the real problem.
Fluke@feddit.uk · 8 pts · 37d
It's been pointed out to me a few times recently that a lot of hospitality staff don't actually want the system to change as they usually don't declare their full income from the tips to the taxman.
If they unionise and change things, their whole income becomes taxable, and they feel that they lose.
This seriously undermines the sympathy I have for the staff as a group. The tools for change are right there, but there are enough bootlickers and foolish individualists to poison any attempt at change short of a general strike. (I'm under no illusions as to the inevitable violent government response to such a thing either.)
Ultimately it comes down to; "Either change your system with group action, like everywhere else did, or keep whining about getting stiffed, your choice."
Azal@pawb.social · 2 pts · 36d
While this is true amongst some, it's again that minority that finds the really nice places to work.
I've done waiter at a tex mex place, my current coworker the same, we talk about the bullshit one has to jump through to be able to pay rent. Working multiple jobs to make ends meet for a job that cuts your hours or has you work a double without any forwarning.
And when it comes to the group action, unfortunately wait staff at the shittiest of places still exist because someone needs money to survive. And if you can get out of the hellhole to a real job, you do it the first chance you can. Doesn't really give enough time to create group action.
I don't have an answer for it, we should get rid of tipping. I don't eat out really at all, that's my fix. But I'm far far out of the restaurant business now and if I'm back in it then my life has gone absolutely horribly wrong.
billybob@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 37d
Servers in America can work 20-30 hours a week and pretty easily make 40-50 dollars an hour. Very few restaurants can afford to pay their staff that much. These servers aren’t making 5 dollars an hour like everyone thinks. I personally think the most messed up thing about the restaurant industry is the cooks make the least amount of money out of everyone. Sysco reps, delivery drivers, servers, bartenders, owners, they all profit off of the kitchen.
kent_eh@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 36d
Most other countries have figured out how to make it work.
billybob@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 36d
What country’s are paying their servers 45 dollars an hour?
kent_eh@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 36d
Evotech@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 36d
So you agree it’s dumb s fuck that only the last chain, those who carry the food to the table should be tipped
theacharnian@lemmy.ca · 10 pts · 37d
A very simple solution is for restaurants to offer a second all-inclusive version of the menu with taxes and suggested tipping included in the prices. Can't cost more than a half hour of work and the price of ten printed pieces of paper.
CanIFishHere@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 36d
So if you order from the all inclusive menu you are served by a different server who is paid properly?
theacharnian@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 36d
What I'm saying is just take the existing price, add the sales tax, add a 15% tip, and show the resulting price to the tourists. Same result, less head math for the tourists.
If you want proper wages for workers, you need unionization.
bier@feddit.nl · 6 pts · 36d
When I was in the US it was just confusing sometimes. Like I went to this restaurant to order a pizza, to-go. They had a sign outside and the pizza was like 18 dollars, but when you want to pay its more because of tax, and now they also expected a tip. Ok but it's to go right? So you also tip when getting groceries? The entire system just felt very arbitrary.
theacharnian@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 36d
Each place has its peculiarities. Bagging groceries and sorting garbage in Germany. Avoiding giving offense when ordering food or coffee in Italy. Etc.
green_link@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 36d
or how about fuck off with the tips and just pay employees a living wage. I the customer shouldn't have to cover the gap in your employees wage.
theacharnian@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 36d
Yup. If you're serious about it, and not just an upset customer, support hospitality workers' unions.
axexrx@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 36d
You do realize the customer would pay either way. The prices will just go up to pay those wages (and now you also owe double taxes on it; both the sales taxes and the income taxes will get made up for on the top.)
Most 'good' restaurants will likely go to a commission based model, where that same 20% of sales goes to the waiter, but is included in the price, since tips are what motivate servers to upsell. 20% of $150 is beter than 20% of $100.
Without it theres no point in going out of your way to offer an appetizer or cocktail while they wait for the food, since its just creating more work for the same $/hr. Now the restaurant needs to raise prices even more to keep afloat, since sales are down.
And if they do go to commission, now the only thing thats changed is the servers motivation towards the guest. After everything is rung in, they've got their 20%; unless theres another sale to be made (a new cocktail, dessert, etc) theres no motivation to check back in until its time to drop the check. Because thats why tips are discretionary: to disincentivize poor service.
Ive seen it pretty much every way. I used to work at a country club that paid high hourly. Ive also been at a hotel where everything was auto grated.
Ive also noticed it traveling in europe. Id find myself deciding between dining in more touristy or more authentic spots depending on the level of care I wanted. Do i go to the bistro, where i wont get a chance to order a second coffee, and no one's going to refill my water for the hour and a half im sitting for lunch, before someone finally makes eye contact and I can get my check, or do I go to the place in the tourist spot, where ill get everything I need and be out in 45 minutes, because they know I'm a tourist from a tipping country.
green_link@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 34d
then you know what happens if they raise prices? exactly what's happening now post-pandemic and dumpy trumps illegal tariffs: less people go out to eat and the restaurants FAIL. if you can't afford to pay your employees a fair wage, then your business doesn't deserve to be in business.
i i wanted an appetizer id order one, i don't need to person to upsell me food. i don't need ANY worker to upsell me anything. upselling can also fuck off. i don't need any worker to fucking work on commission, that shit can also fuck off. all these shitty tactics to get workers to needlessly sell their souls to squeeze more money out of hard working people can fuck right off. I'm sick of it. NO. pay your workers fairly, stop fucking around with peoples lives, sell a GOOD product, and you'll make the money you want.
stop with the deep throating these fucking billionaires excuses for legalized slavery.
green_link@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 31d
also you talk about prices going up if they are forced to pay their servers correctly. guess what bud fucking prices have skyrocketed already without them to pay servers properly. and in other first world countries, like in Europe, restaurant food is cheap and they pay their employees a living wage. it's not that north America restaurants can't, it's that they don't want to and basically want slaves
axexrx@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 36d
Same server, but now they get a commission on that check instead of a tip. They get the same 20%, but you now pay an extra 10% in taxes on the higher bill. And youre now their lowest priority table after ordering, because the commission is already locked in
Tarambor@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 36d
Are Americans really this stupid and brainwashed into thinking this is OK?
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 37d
A non insignificant number of owners would steal the money and you would still have to tip. Such is life here.
Nurgus@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 36d
You make it sound like a third world banana republic..
Pacattack57@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 36d
There should never be an incentive for someone to work hard. The incentive is the paycheck. If they give bad service you fire them, every other scenario should be they are paid fairly and the customer leaves happy because they got good service.
Fedizen@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 36d
"We need at-will employment to ensure good service"
"We need to allow tips to ensure good service" Naw the tips are there so they can list lower prices than you're going to pay.
smeenz@lemmy.nz · 4 pts · 36d
Exactly. Like every other job, poor work performance should be handled by feedback and clear targets, with dismissal used as a last resort.
Nobody should be forced to give fake smiles to appease awful customers in order to not starve.
SnuffyThePunk@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 36d
I never tip, unless i received exceptional service.
Then again i only eat out at venues where I pay up front or self serve, or in places so posch - I actually WANT to tip the staff for providing an outstanding experience.
On the rare occation I am in a venue where tipping is expected and service and experience are not phenomenal I do not tip and happily send any staff to fuck right off if approached - that sort of establishment SHOULD go under.
YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub · -24 pts · 36d
You suck for not tipping people who are paid in tips.
patruelis@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 36d
Yeah, pay a livable salary and fuck off with begging for money.
axexrx@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 36d
Tell that to the owner and not the staff.
patruelis@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 36d
It is not the owner's fault, it is everyone as a nation, accepting the practice and blaming customers.
zqps@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 36d
It's very much also the owners. Outsourcing your staff's salaries to the customer while being able to advertise cheaper prices is an incredible deal for them while dropping all of the responsibility on the customers.
axexrx@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 36d
The customers end up paying the extra however you slice it. Be it tips, a non optional gratuity, or baked into the price. Most restaurant margins are surprisingly low, its not like theyre being greedy and hoarding the 'extra' money that would otherwise go to servers salary.
The tip passing direct from the customer to the staff prevents it from being taxed 2x, (both sales and income dont get charged on tips) you'd be adding an extra 10% or more on top of the 20% if you moved to to a baked in cost.
reev@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 36d
You guys are always so worried about your taxes. With the current administration I can see why, I guess. We're not asking to not pay what we owe, we're just asking that what we owe be transparent, like in a civilised country.
YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub · -1 pts · 35d
You are only harming workers and are an asshole if you withhold tips.
Redfugee@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 36d
Why do you give the employer a pass and blame the customer?
YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub · 0 pts · 35d
I don’t get the employer a pass. But I live in a reality of tipped wages and have had a job like that before. I have solidarity with those workers by helping the make a livelihood. Me not tipping only benefits me and the owner. Not the laborer. It is immoral to withhold the money earned
Redfugee@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 35d
The employer is the one withholding the money earned, the customer is simply paying the price that is advertised. The employer is the one that is exploiting the cheap labor, and if the labor looks to the customer to fix it it's not going to work out.
YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub · 1 pts · 35d
You fight the system by fighting the system, not punishing people who are even more vulnerable to the cruelty of the system.
Redfugee@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 35d
Employers paying shitty wages are punishing workers, this is the source of your complaint. If workers got a fair wage to begin with, you wouldn't give a shit about tipping. But employers pay a shit wage and have successfully got people like you to blame and shame customers instead of them. If you think this will resolve by arguing with the customers that aren't subsiding the wages, well, good luck with that.
YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub · 1 pts · 35d
Cool story. Good way to have solidarity with workers
BlindPenguin@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 36d
Pay your staff properly
smeenz@lemmy.nz · 8 pts · 36d
No, you suck for accepting and perpetuating a culture where it is necessary. Do the right thing and refuse to go along with it. Insist that all staff are paid livable wages. Petition your state to force the issue if necessary.
YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub · -1 pts · 35d
Yes because me not tipping is going to end the system. Not tipping only benefits me and the owner. The staff is fucked. Only assholes think their individual lack of tipping with change a system. Systematic change requires a system to change.
Tarambor@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 36d
You suck for living in a nation that allows employers to use tips to make up a half decent wage.
YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub · 1 pts · 35d
Yes I have a choice in that matter. I live in a reality of tipped wages and I have solidarity with the people who labor under it
BlindPenguin@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 35d
That's not solidarity in terms of labour. It's just accepting the status quo, while doing a lip service to the people affected. If you really want to show solidarity, join a union and participate in collective action to improve the working conditions. The more people a union has, the stronger it can get. Worker rights in Europe didn't come out of the good hearts of politicians or companies.
YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub · 1 pts · 35d
You fight the system by fighting the system, not punishing people who are even more vulnerable to the cruelty of the system.
BlindPenguin@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 35d
Then join a union.
YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub · 1 pts · 35d
I’m literally in the IWW
sos242@thelemmy.club · 3 pts · 36d
I have only read the comments here. I see employers are not paying minimum wages is the problem here.
If minimum wages were paid tipping or not tipping is a question of good service and appreciation and not a question of survival.
Place the blame on the business owners who refuse to pay fair wages to employees. This is a criminal act and customer not tipping is just a question of social politeness.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz · 1 pts · 36d
Minimum wage isn't enough to live off of in any city.
spacegoat@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 36d
Actual clown take
YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub · -1 pts · 35d
I have solidarity with the people who labor under the system.
Lemming6969@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 37d
If you need to pay, it's posted on the menu and appears on the bill. If not, too bad.
anarchy79@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 35d
How many times is this shit going to get reposted?
SnuffyThePunk@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 36d
ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 36d
All you can do is refuse to tip in solidarity with the workers.
kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 9 pts · 36d
No service worker appreciates that crap.
ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 36d
Maybe but their boss appreciates customers handling performance bonuses a lot more.
And apparently in the US they don't even have to pay them minimum wage so it's a win/win for management getting to treat their staff like slaves.
irish_link@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 36d
Actually no, in most places management DOESNT like it when that happens. If the worker doesn’t get enough tips to make minimum wage they have to pay them that wage.
Put it this way, if they have only had to pay a worker $20 a night for so long it’s almost part of their budget. If all of a sudden they have to pay double or even triple that (or more depending on the state) they they have to cough up way more money than they want and that eats into their pockets.
Don’t get me wrong it sucks for the service worker. Now they are making 1/3 or what they usually do or worse. But it’s not a performance review and the boss isn’t happy about it.
The tipping culture is stupid here and it needs to end, but I would hate to do it on the backs of hard-working people.
ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 35d
So you can admit that it's just subsidizing management but still think tipping isn't to benefit them.
irish_link@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 35d
So you admit they do have to pay minimum wage? (Clearly a foolish way to make a point)
Take what is said and don’t change the message. Doing that weakens your argument.
To your point yes and no. It does NOT subsidize MANAGMENT, if puts money in the pockets of the owner. Clearly you are a fool because you make a point and ignore the specific example that helps your argument. “They don’t like it because they have to then pay the minimum wage.”
You clearly ignore everything I have said and missed the message. It does not benefit management. It benefits the owner.
ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 35d
Yes, I took what you said as correct.
I see management as an arm of the bourgeoisie, not as an ally to the proletariat.
As such
This is a distinction without a difference.
irish_link@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 35d
Then you are a fool. Managers in these places make about $5 an hour more but do not get tips. Meaning they make less in general and are doing the job of two. Clearly you don’t understand anything about the situation. Stop making an argument you know nothing about because you didn’t even know the rules about minimum wage here.
mechoman444@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 36d
Ultimately, you are correct.
You're also probably being downvoted by service workers who rely on tips to earn a living.
That's the double-edged sword. Almost nobody likes tipping, and most people would prefer a system where workers are simply paid a fair wage. The reality, however, is that tipping currently makes up a substantial portion of the income for millions of people.
The only way to eliminate tipping is for people to stop participating in the system altogether, forcing businesses to adopt a different compensation model.
The unfortunate part is that the transition wouldn't be painless. Until those businesses adapt, a very large number of workers would bear the cost, putting them at a significant financial disadvantage.
agnomeunknown@lemmy.ml · -4 pts · 36d
Go fuck yourself.
huey_m@reddthat.com · -3 pts · 37d
SanitationStation@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 37d
Paying for the service is fine.
But I would prefer to see the amount I'm expected to pay before I choose to purchase that product or service.
I know I can bust out the calculator, but that feels pretty annoying.
Spooge@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 37d
You take you logic and experience and get the fuck out! We're circlejerkin in here!
Jeffool@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 36d
I remember long ago someone broke down the math for me and it became simple. If the bill is $53.27, for example, then 10% is $5.33, just by moving the decimal over one spot. A quick estimate tells me half of that is $2.50 (5 halved) + $0.15 (33 is close to 30 and that halved), so $2.65-ish. Add them together and 15% is close to $8. 20% is that initial $5.33 doubled to $10.66. Roughly between that is my tip on average service, probably rounded.
... Is that weird written out like that?
green_link@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 36d
no, what's weird is tipping in the first place. tipping shouldn't be a fucking thing period
and don't come at me with the "servers need to make money" then the fucking business should pay them a living wage. if your business can't survive with paying your employees a living wage, then they don't deserve to exist. that's capitalism.
Jeffool@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 36d
I'm not defending tipping. The business should pay them a livable wage. But if I'm going to go out to eat, which I have occasionally done, I'm not going to lecture the server about capitalism. They're relying on tips. They get it.
Damn, you're grumpy, huh?
green_link@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 36d
who said anything giving shit to the servers? the solution to getting rid of tipping culture is to support unions, fair pay, and not going to restaurants that won't pay their employees. the restaurant owners make it a you vs the server issue. if you don't tip then the server blames you the customer instead of their boss, and you the customer are upset at the server for being guilted into tipping instead of being upset at the restaurant for not paying the server properly. the solution you can do right now? stop going to restaurants.
i didn't fucking hire the server, why the hell am i responsible for their pay? i don't tip the bank teller, or the retail worker.
Jeffool@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 36d
sunbrrnslapper@lemmy.world · -15 pts · 37d
We should absolutely pay restaurant staff a living wage with benefits, but I do like tipping because I get better service. My experience has been that restaurants that don't have tips have lousy service (I'm looking at you el Gaucho in Seattle).
Argon@tardigram.com · 7 pts · 37d
I preefer get good service for being a nice person before than pay for it. Money isn't the mesure for everything.
sunbrrnslapper@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 37d
I used to serve. It is a hard job (all restraunt jobs are) and they deserve to be treated well - both in pay/benefits and respect. But tips absolutely change behavior. And I think it is ok to incenticize behavior in all sorts of situations, including this one.
alternategait@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 37d
sunbrrnslapper@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 37d
If you know that good service typically results in a good tip, you are more likely to provide good service even when the outcome is unknown.
Whn I served, I knew that people with shopping bags tipped lousy (after asking for like 19 refills on iced tea), but business people ate quick and tipped well. I adjusted my service accordingly. Not a sure thing, but it was close enough to true that it changed my behavior.
sportsjorts@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 37d
Good tippers subsidize the bad ones. This is the American way.