Canada proposes 100% tariffs on Tesla, I have an alternative: open the door to Chinese EVs
https://electrek.co/2025/03/04/canada-proposes-100-tariffs-on-tesla-i-have-an-alternative-open-the-door-to-chinese-evs/
1.1k points · 405 comments · view on lemmy.world
405 Comments
reddig33@lemmy.world · 109 pts · 1y
As much as I hate Elon, this is a terrible idea. Cheap Chinese trash mobiles built by Uyghur slave labor are not the answer.
How about we build cars in Canada instead?
crazyminner@lemmy.ml · 67 pts · 1y
Except they aren't trash, they're better than Teslas that's for sure.
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de · 48 pts · 1y
They are still data hungry, surveillance machines that are allways online and gps tracked. We need cars without that kinda shit built in.
Grimy@lemmy.world · 51 pts · 1y
There has been talks about forcing Chinese cars to come over disconnected. Every new car is a surveillance machine. The western brands will not be asked to disconnect anything and it will probably be illegal to do so yourself, so Chinese cars might be an actual win in that regard.
psx_crab@lemmy.zip · 18 pts · 1y
American car company secretly send your driving data to your insurance company so they can squeeze more out from you for any minor reason they see fit. There's no reason canada insurance company won't do that. Scared about chinese car collecting your data is kinda missed the point, you should have stronger data protection instead.
umbrella@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 1y
crazyminner@lemmy.ml · -3 pts · 1y
I'de rather China have my data than an company over here. What are they gunna do with it that would affect me?
socialjusticewizard@sh.itjust.works · 20 pts · 1y
that's exactly what got us in this mess in the first place.
crazyminner@lemmy.ml · 14 pts · 1y
What mess? American Imperialism / Capitalism imploding on itself?
socialjusticewizard@sh.itjust.works · 16 pts · 1y
A foreign power having far, far too much control over our economic possessions. Information is a resource; what they do with it is inconsequential, we have to stop giving it away to people simply because they're our 'trade partners' right now.
MajorSauce@sh.itjust.works · -1 pts · 1y
So a direct consequence of Usamerican capitalism/Imperialism, got it.
nik282000@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1y
Correlation attacks, China is king of hoovering up data.
Overly dramatic example: you are in the armed forces, you have a TikTok account, you post a bunch of shit that shows you are in the armed forces. You get deployed for some covert fuckabout and are told to leave your phone at home. You turn off your phone, pick up 3 of your buddies in your Chinese EV and drive to the base/airport/sea port. Dozens of people do this and by seeing the pattern China knows that a bunch of armed forces are being told to quietly deploy.
A less dramatic example might be figuring out where politicians are by knowing where their employees are.
IndustryStandard@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1y
Nobody hoovers up more data than the US.
Remember when Elon remotely unlocked that cybertruck recently and accessed the cameras?
nik282000@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 1y
The US can't even unlock an iPhone without calling in 3rd parties. EVERY Chinese made device collects data, and every Chinese business gives full access to the Chinese government. The US government does collect data but it's no where near the scale of the Chinese.
He unlocked a device made by a company he owns, running software they designed on a network they operate. All that shows is that Tesla's vehicles are not properly secured and remote access can be abused by Tesla employees.
Serinus@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
We have roughly three million ways to say "US bad" right now, and you pick a less than true one.
US government data collection is not on the scale of China. The US is limited in what it gets from companies. China is absolutely not.
Yes, the US should absolutely have more data protection laws. The EU is better. China is absolutely not.
IndustryStandard@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
False
crazyminner@lemmy.ml · -5 pts · 1y
Why would I give a shit about China knowing about where murderers are?
Serinus@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1y
Hello, ml.
Anivia@feddit.org · 0 pts · 1y
Use it as blackmail if we ever end up in a war against them
wheeldawg@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 1y
My toenail clippings are better than Teslas.
Darkcoffee@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 1y
That's what my friend in NZ told me too, they're really good, better or the same as Tesla.
anachronist@midwest.social · 5 pts · 1y
It's possible to be trash and also better than Tesla...
jagged_circle@feddit.nl · 6 pts · 1y
That's a low fucking bar lol
bluGill@fedia.io · 48 pts · 1y
Build cars in Germany, Japan, South Korea and the like. focus on something non car you can sell to them in return. You can do anything but not everything.
IrateAnteater@sh.itjust.works · 36 pts · 1y
Building cars is something we already do in Canada. And there's currently a lot of capacity coming online to build electric cars. Pretty much the entire car could be sourced from Canadian parts, including the batteries. I think semi-conductors are the only thing that doesn't have a domestic source right now.
Serinus@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
Sedans please.
small44@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 1y
But we were fine with the usa destroying multiple countries, participating in many coups and supporting Israel for decades.
Jhex@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 1y
Source?
Another person who thinks the world is like a SIMS game... just press the button and the factory pops up, right?!
eestileib@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 1y
EVs are easier to build than gas cars at least
anomnom@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 1y
Aren’t Chrysler, Fords, and GMs already built in Canada, or at least a bunch of the parts of them?
They should ban the Cybertruck altogether for being an unnecessarily dangerous vehicle.
MisterFrog@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
While there are still a lot of low quality things produced en masse in China, this take is getting more and more out of date.
South Korea and Japan used to make cheap crap too until their industrial output developed to the point the average quality was high.
We have reached this point to a certain degree with China too. Their EVs sure as hell are better than Tesla's.
There's a lot of high quality stuff coming out of China now, along with crap.
thetemerian@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y
LOL, have you seen the EVs that are coming out of China nowadays?
If they were trash the EU and US wouldn’t put tariffs on them, because they wouldn’t threaten our own manufacturers no?
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
At least keep the tracking and voice-recording (for Ai) in-country. I don't see that in a provable fashion in the cheap asian cars.
Yawweee877h444@lemmy.world · -27 pts · 1y
I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
Do you have any substantial sources, to objectively prove your claims? I've never seen anything convincing.
I'm not intending to simp for China. They are authoritarian. But I'm also not going to fall for propaganda especially if it's false. The USA has a motive for making the masses hate China.
TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee · 27 pts · 1y
There is plenty of evidence widely available from organizations like human rights watch and amnesty international. Claims that deny any evidence exist of the persecution of China's Muslim population rely on logical fallacies to attempt to obscure the validity of the body of evidence. Namely ad hominem attacks against the individual who first gathered the evidence to begin with.
While the researcher obviously has biased opinions about the CCP, that doesn't affect the validity of the evidence gathered, most of which comes directly from publicly available information released by the CCP itself, or from leaked internal communication from party members that have been widely verified by reputable journalists and organizations specializing in human rights violations.
While I personally wouldn't claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it's hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren't being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven't occurred.
Simply looking at publicly available census data releases by the CCP we can tell that Uyghur people are being driven from culturally important sites that are being replaced by ethnically Han Chinese, and that Uyghur populations have been shrinking at a worryingly abnormal rate.
If we look at recent history of ethnic conflict within China in tibet, Manchuria, and inner Mongolia, I fail to see why it's logical to assume that the accusations of crimes against humanity is pure propaganda.
Han chauvinism is well documented, and even Mao Zedong spoke about how it would negatively affect the future of the party. Ethnic conflict/cleansing has been a constant in the region and is part of the foundational history of modern China.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · -3 pts · 1y
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region, while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians. That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee · 11 pts · 1y
So..... Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
I wasn't aware it was a competition? Human rights violations should be criticized no matter who's doing it.
Again..... I'm not the American government. I am very critical of the US governments involvement with many genocides throughout history. I am also very critical of any government who participates in similar human rights violations, because I'm not a massive hypocrite.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · -8 pts · 1y
Hard proof of all of that has never been produced. Contrary facts exist for all your points.
TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee · 6 pts · 1y
What do you consider hard proof?
As I said, most of the information used has been verified by independent reporters or human rights organizations.
If you required the same level of "hard proof" as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country...
What else could you possibly want?
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 1y
secret papers can't be hard proof. Neither is a photo of what may be a prison. There are extremely weak documentaries trying to hype up "re-education", but the US pledge of allegiance would be equivalent indoctrination.
at the risk of whataboutism, you have Israel engaged in genocidal mass murder on video. Politics of shit talking China is far more important than any objective principle of oppression.
There is genuine context/exaggeration to all of these points. Demographics and income specifically show Xinxiang doing better than average in China.
reddig33@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 1y
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 1y
Oh boy, genocide denial.
Banana@sh.itjust.works · 0 pts · 1y
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 1y
What they were doing was textbook sealioning. This information is right there for anyone to find and has been for years.
Banana@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 1y
FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 1y
Why would organisations who aren’t scared to criticise the west and have a really good track record like anmety intl and HRW make the suffering of the Uyghur people up?
It’s really fucking hard for me to understand why many people have so much trouble accepting both China/Russia and the West are heavily unethical. There’s no magic place that does everything ethically, and I don’t know why we’re refusing to acknowledge the cultural genocide of a large population, leading to extreme suffering for hunderds of thousands, because it criticises one country. It doesn’t matter who did it, it absolutely is awful, and we shouldn’t be denying it. Denying it only compounds the extreme suffering the population faces.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
It's so weird to me that people who defend China's treatment of Uyghurs turn it into a US vs China thing. You can look through my recent history and find me saying that Biden, Harris, and everyone in Congress who clapped for Netanyahu have committed genocide and can rot in hell. Trump, of course, is even worse. This isn't a "muh both sides bad enlightened centrism" thing because this isn't a "sides" issue to begin with. Three of the four major superpowers on Earth right now are authoritarian hellholes, and the EU is on its way to joining them with its shift toward neo-Nazism.
Arkouda@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1y
If China is authoritarian and censors all information that makes China look bad, and spreads propaganda to other countries that those Governments are spreading propaganda to make China look bad and China isn't actually bad, does it matter what is motivating the US to say "China Bad" when they objectively are?
This is denial, plain and simple.
It is not everyone else's job to provide this ignoramus sources on the facts of the matter when we are all communicating on the internet where those facts can be found. Especially when no source can possibly be good enough when "they haven't seen anything convincing yet" even though everyone but China and their allies are saying the same damn thing, including people who have fled China, and they are only referencing US sources.
Let's use some simple logic here, bub.
Banana@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 1y
Arkouda@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 1y
I don't think deleting the parent comment so context is lost is good practice. I think it is antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any one who wants to keep up with the conversation.
But you did it anyways. Like how OP explicitly denied a genocide is happening.
Both things happened, and that's a fact.
Banana@sh.itjust.works · -4 pts · 1y
Yoga@lemmy.ca · -4 pts · 1y
TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee · 9 pts · 1y
And claiming "U.N. body rejects debate on China's treatment of Uyghur Muslims in blow to West" means a majority of countries on their side is just dishonest. China has a massive economy and is able to put political pressure on plenty of nations in the UN.
This would be like saying America has never pressured another nation into voting for something in the UN.
Yoga@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 1y
TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee · 5 pts · 1y
What do you mean by on their side? Are you saying they don't believe human rights violations happened, are you saying they are just politically aligned with China, or that worried about political backlash from China?
Yoga@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
pupbiru@aussie.zone · 6 pts · 1y
linking wikipedia is providing an enormous list of sources and summaries
at this point, the uighur issue is the bullshit asymmetry principal: it’s been proven time and time again and anyone asking for “sources” isn’t arguing in good faith: they’re relying on the fact that asking for sources takes thousands of times less energy than countering
so that’s what you get: a massive list of pre-prepared sources
*edit: and if you’d have actually read the article you posted, the UNHRC didn’t vote against the motion because they thought there was nothing to investigate: they voted against it to “avoid alienating china”
Kecessa@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 1y
Oh I think you registered on the wrong instance
Hexbear is what you're looking for, this way most of us won't see your comments.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 1y
Yes. It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region. The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS. The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 1y
America said the same thing when they forced assimilation on the native population after stealing their land.
Or just demographics?
Again, your only defense to actual evidence is just logical fallacy. You aren't making any argument in good faith.
I actually admire a lot about the Chinese government, they've done wonders in recent decades to undue nearly a hundred years of foreign interference and imperialism. That doesn't mean I'm not going to be critical of the things I don't like about the government.
The simple fact is that they have a fairly well documented history of oppressing non-Han minorities in the country.
expatriado@lemmy.world · 75 pts · 1y
i would find amusing if countries retaliate US tariffs by singling out Musk and Trump companies
big_slap@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 1y
I think this is the sanest thing that has been said in the last couple of hours. I'm still recovering from the trump speech from yesterday, so not totally sure.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 1y
I also am reeling from that speech. I suspect I may have lost some brain cells in that.
nik282000@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1y
Bernie Sanders had a pretty reasonable take on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlrQKv1vN_4
Typotyper@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 1y
https://www.thebeaverton.com/2025/03/trudeau-announces-counter-tariffs-on-any-trump-businesses-that-havent-already-gone-bankrupt/
absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz · 6 pts · 1y
Absolute gold
jollyrogue@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1y
This is the best. I’m in the middle of this and it’s scary as hell, but there is some pretty good comedy going on.
pivot_root@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1y
That website is satire if I remember correctly.
Snowpix@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 1y
Yes it is. It's a Canadian satire site.
pdqcp@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 74 pts · 1y
I have a better alternative: invest in viable alternatives to driving! expand protected bike lanes, build the damn high speed rail, more trains, trams and bus lines. One more asphalt lane for cars wont solve traffic problems :)
doingthestuff@lemy.lol · 12 pts · 1y
That would work for much of the population that lives within 100 miles of the US border, but there is a lot of rural and green space in Canada, and bikes aren't great in Canadian winters. Canada needs good car options too.
Nalivai@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 1y
84% of Canadians live in cities, and that's where good urban infrastructure is the most needed.
Making car-centric infrastructure mostly electric will help a bit, but not a whole lot.
howrar@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 1y
And spending that money to get us cheaper transit in the long term will probably also free up more resources to help the remaining 16%.
pdqcp@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 8 pts · 1y
Oh, I agree that mass transit wouldn't really work in areas that aren't as dense, but we should definitely have those where possible. I didn't mean to say we don't need good car options, but we should also have more options besides just cars
Now regarding bikes and winter, I'd say that's more of an infrastructure problem. Finland also has terrible winter, yet they can bike as usual. You should watch this video if you are interested in this theme: "Why Canadians Can't Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can)"
doingthestuff@lemy.lol · 1 pts · 1y
I understand that infrastructure is more important to be able to cycle in the winter, even eclipsing temperature in very cold areas. I live in an area where there is no bicycle infrastructure, I'm actually 100x safer riding my motorcycle well below freezing on the road, than riding my bicycle on a beautiful fall day. And I do, I have gear for it .There are cities though, where temperatures don't regularly get super cold and people don't actually have the clothing and gear to cycle in the winter. I would guess in those areas, temperature is more of a factor. In areas where winters are consistently very cold, people already have what they need and are able to cycle if the infrastructure is there.
Nalivai@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
That's the thing, with infrastructure you don't need special gear to ride in winter. You commute on your commuter bike in your regular clothes that you use for everything else. You don't need to run crazy speeds or jump over crazy hills, you ride you commuter with the same intensity you would have if you just walk.
WoodScientist@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 1y
In cities at least, bikes are just as good as cars in winter. Your city just needs to put as much effort in to building and clearing bike lanes as it does car lanes. Places that give a shit actually plow and salt their bike paths and bike lanes.
gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 1y
Your bike has a heater built-in and a way to block out the cold wind and/or rain?
That's usually what people mean when they mention vehicles in the winter, not just the road being cleared
WoodScientist@sh.itjust.works · 0 pts · 1y
That's just a matter of having the proper clothing.
gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 1y
Having ridden bikes in snow (and would be willing to again): yeah, no, they're a very different experience and to pretend otherwise is to engage in a shocking level of willful ignorance
epicstove@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 1y
Walkable cities. Biking infrastructure. Reliable public transit.
Regularless of of what'd going on in the world right now, these would make our cities far better.
docgerbil@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1y
Along with more work from home jobs?
HK65@sopuli.xyz · 4 pts · 1y
Just make it so that commutes count as clocked-in time, and let the market sort it out.
Jhex@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1y
Love this idea; however, bringing Chinese cars is like applying pressure to the wound... fixing public transportation is the long term healing process.
1 - They are not mutually exclusive, bring the Chinese cars now while starting on the long term public transportation projects
2 - The Federal gov can act on the Chinese cars now... public transportation is 100% Provincial purview so an entirely different team needs to address this other priority
thefool@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 1y
Our newly-elected Premier has unfortunately doubled down on giving cars priority with the mandated removal of bike lanes and building new highways (413), even though their own data says that Toronto with be just as congested a few years after building them.
Oh I forgot to mention the tunnel under the 401, which is a massive boondoggle waiting to happen
Ledericas@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y
we have the reverse problem in west of us, removed some car lanes for bike lines causing huge congestion that the bicyclist barely use anyways.
FabledAepitaph@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1y
As someone who loves driving cars, I'm completely on board with this. Driving should be optional, and I'd love to leave the car home when I go out partying, or don't want to worry about leaving my nice ride somewhere sketchy overnight.
AlienContact2049@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 1y
This is the way
engene@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
Bang on!
noxypaws@pawb.social · 47 pts · 1y
Replacing nazi cars with slave labor cars is a pretty fucked up idea.
Alteon@lemmy.world · 41 pts · 1y
Pretty much anything that you've ever owned has been made from the exploitation of some working class somewhere. The clothes you wear. The house you live in. The electronics that you use. The furniture that you own. The very food you eat and drink is often cheap because of an exploited worker somewhere that's paid pennies on the dollar. Your going to draw the line at a drastically cheaper car that's leaps and bounds better for the environment than a petrol vehicle? Okay.
noxypaws@pawb.social · 6 pts · 1y
Yes.
EVs are definitely better for the environment than ICE powered cads. But they won't singlehandedly solve climate change, let alone all the harms when places prioritize single occupancy passenger cars at the expense of public transit.
And sure, I'm drawing a line here because cars are one of the precious few industries where you can still buy union-made.
Where do you draw that line?
Randomgal@lemmy.ca · -4 pts · 1y
Smell that? That's the smell of virtue signaling. Just buy shit and drop the hypocrisy. At least the other guys is being honest.
PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca · 11 pts · 1y
"I buy from companies who most closely match my ethics" is virtue signaling, now?
We live in a capitalist society, and voting with our wallet is the only vote we get. Not everyone can afford to vote, but why wouldn't you if you could?
If this is virtue signaling, it's the most subtle milquetoast virtue signaling ever.
Alteon@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 1y
That's well said. And good on you for sticking to your guns. You are 100% right. I think if you can afford to avoid these companies you should.
Daelsky@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 1y
To be fair, as someone said, it’s not EV that will save the environment. They bring their own problems such as rare earth minerals, heavy metals, lithium fires, heavier cars = move road degradation because of weight, more PM2,5 because of the weight on caoutchouc tires, the difficulty to replace parts when broken because of the more locked design and less right to repair friendly and more.
Are they good for the environment? More than a combustion car, probably. Are they the silver bullet solution? Absolutely not. We are in Canada and we have industries, local, that could benefit from investing into public transportation and trains. That’s true Canadian investment to our companies and solutions to the current environmental crisis.
IndustryStandard@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1y
Cars factories are heavily automated. Manual labor is barely a factor in their cost. China gives state subsidies for EVs and has a far stronger local supply chain.
NotLemming@lemm.ee · 41 pts · 1y
turnip@sh.itjust.works · 19 pts · 1y
China can buy our housing to rent it back to us, but we can't buy their EV because other companies won't make as much profit. Great trickle down.
stardust@lemmy.ca · 15 pts · 1y
Yeah China feeling more emboldened to invade Taiwan and talking about wanting to send in troops to gain experience in Ukraine shows they are looking to fill in the power vacuum left by the US and become US 2.0.
NotLemming@lemm.ee · 9 pts · 1y
IceFoxX@lemm.ee · 7 pts · 1y
No, absolutely not like Russia 2.0 The Chinese are taking a completely different approach to the Russians. The fact that people still think the Chinese are stupid is unbelievable...
NotLemming@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y
IceFoxX@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y
Without China, Russia would no longer be able to act. The economy etc. would have collapsed completely long ago without China. China therefore has control over Russia and not vice versa. (Even North Korea now has more to say than Putin...) So China is tackling the global battle via cyberwar and economic warfare. It is also a way to overthrow other countries without war and the West is dependent on China. China is not sending its country back a century, but into the future. They are not rushing into a senseless and stupid war, but are waiting until the stupid Russians burn through the capacities worldwide with the Ukraine war. They are also waiting until America splinters completely and possibly takes Europe with it. It is absolutely not comparable with the brainless MeatGrindr bullshit from the Russians.
I'm not saying that China won't start a war, but they won't do it as stupidly as the Russians. China is thinking several years ahead. Just future-oriented.
So apart from nuclear weapons, China is much more dangerous for the West
NotLemming@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y
IceFoxX@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 1y
Because we have democratic laws and, as I said, China is not stupid but acts within the law (apart from cyberwarfare). The results of all this can now be seen with Trump, who is completely destroying democratic values. It is also enough to look at the technological difference between China and Russia. China also produces all the measurement while our measurement is also produced there. Underestimating the Chinese or comparing them with Russia is simply unrealistic.
Let's wait and see the results of Trump policies. In the end, the citizen has the last word when he starts the civil war.
Btw. The tiktok ban showed how loyal the American population is to the Chinese government.
MrMakabar@slrpnk.net · 6 pts · 1y
The old American playbook was to ally with some local elites and then use media, secret service and economic support to bring them into power. Military force and hardcore sanctions were a tool used, if that did not work.
Russia prefers to use military force to force other countries into doing what they want.
China seems to work mainly with economic pressure, corruption and secret servcie work to set up favroable local elites. Their media game is not as good as the US, but TikTok is a clear sign that they are working on it. So far hard force is pretty rarer.
To me China looks a lot more like the old US playbook. They know the Russian one is not as good, as they saw European Empires collapse by using it.
heresy@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 1y
Russia does not prefer military force. They do just as much meddling as the USA does and one might even say they do it better.
LuckyPierre@lemm.ee · 5 pts · 1y
And America isn't?
derpgon@programming.dev · 2 pts · 1y
Wasn't, until Trumptler got into power.
Darkcoffee@sh.itjust.works · 35 pts · 1y
Top that with copyrights removal on Tesla tech.
Typotyper@sh.itjust.works · 10 pts · 1y
Copyright removal on all Disney products. Role expiry date back to puss them off.
Darkcoffee@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 1y
Yeeeesssssss
AI_toothbrush@lemmy.zip · 32 pts · 1y
Or just fix public transit for fucks sake. Evs are a distraction from the problemm
AlienContact2049@lemmy.ca · 31 pts · 1y
I think we should build them ourselves.
small44@lemmy.world · 30 pts · 1y
Why not both
makyo@lemmy.world · 29 pts · 1y
I obviously don't understand the economics of it and I realize that China will always have the upper hand on price but is there a reason every western EV has to be $40,000+? Like surely it's possible to build a barebones model for less than 30k right - especially if I don't need or even want touch screens or fancy interior materials or heated seats or anything.
dylanmorgan@slrpnk.net · 19 pts · 1y
If I specifically don’t want touch screens, what then?
0ops@lemm.ee · 7 pts · 1y
Legally, cars sold in the US have to have a backup cam, so there has to be a screen, so it might as well be a touch screen.
I agree this is dumb and that's why I drive an old car with nothing but bluetooth
makyo@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1y
Me too! What is the cost/benefit FOR ME? I understand what it is for the manufacturers but it's a UX nightmare, especially when you're trying to drive too.
shawn1122@lemm.ee · 16 pts · 1y
Western culture is built on delivering value to shareholders first and foremost.
reddig33@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 1y
Higher profit margins.
Europeans get the bulk of cheaper and smaller EVs. Meanwhile in North America, Ford stopped selling sedans. It’s a niche that car makers could fill if they wanted to.
doctordevice@lemmy.ca · 13 pts · 1y
That's why I snatched up a Bolt before Chevy (temporarily, they say) discontinued the line. I even did upgrade it a little to get heated/cooling front seats and a heated steering wheel plus the extra safety features. $32.5k with a $7.5k rebate from the federal Clean Vehicle Credit. So $25k for a car with a 175-280 mile range. (175ish in winter when the battery is less efficient, 280 in summer).
Of course the IRS fucked up the point of sale rebate when I was purchasing, but it's finally incoming with my taxes this year.
eletes@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 1y
I imagine China is subsidizing the R&D of their EVs while American car companies are trying to recoup those costs
nednobbins@lemm.ee · 7 pts · 1y
Every major country subsidizes R&D. That's what federal research grants are all about. The NSF, NIH, etc do exactly that.
Other US subsidies on EVs aren't specifically restricted to R&D but US companies could apply it to that, if they want.
edit: typo
bountygiver@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1y
also many US companies are pocketing those subsidy money to pay the CEOs anyways.
shawn1122@lemm.ee · 3 pts · 1y
China has been subsidizing EVs since 2010.
nednobbins@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 1y
Longer than that. China has been promoting battery technology as a strategic initiative since the 90's.
dance_ninja@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
Definitely related. EVs are relatively new technology and internal knowledge for engineering R&D, materials, and manufacturing infrastructure all have to be spun up. All this, and you need marketing/planning folks to decide on what sort of vehicle will sell the best against their engineering capabilities.
nednobbins@lemm.ee · 6 pts · 1y
It's a combination of issues. In no particular order;
Labor costs don't seem to be a factor at all. EVs are made in modern factories that are almost completely automated. The biggest part of "precursor availability" is likely batteries. The main innovation in EVs was the batteries. The electric motors, chassis, computers, etc are all secondary to batteries that can safely hold a lot of charge and discharge reliably. China dominates that market too.
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 1y
How about the rare earth materials as well as much more expensive metals in the motor and electronics construction? An ICE engine is well understood and you can pick up a higher performing aluminum block and head crate motor for ~$13k or so. The higher trim Tesla motors are ~$20k, and they can have up to four motors. That’s a huge difference.
E: y’all downvoting…why? OEM electric motors for cars like a Tesla are expensive AF whereas you can get a relatively inexpensive ICE (~$7k for a base model V8 crate motor). That’s retail, not the manufacturer internal price.
nednobbins@lemm.ee · 3 pts · 1y
China has more rare earth deposits than the US but that's a bit misleading. Rare earths show up in trace amounts all over the world. China has them in higher concentrations.
The bigger issue is that China has been the main refiner of rare earths for decades. That means they have all the infrastructure for actually making it available and they've developed a bunch of technologies and processes to do it way cheaper and more efficiently than anyone else can.
I don't know the pricing specifics of EV motors but I have some familiarity with electric motors, in general. The technology hasn't really changed much in a long time. We've have 3 phase motors and hall effect sensors for ages. They're better than older electric motors but the huge technology leap, that made EVs practical, was the batteries.
Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee · 0 pts · 1y
No way does an electric motor cost that much.
Have you seen the amount of precision engineering that goes into building a combustion engine? That is ridiculously expensive.
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
Did you check numbers before you posted or did you disagree out of hand with zero thought to it? I didn’t pull these numbers out of my ass.
https://gbtimes.com/how-much-is-a-tesla-motor-replacement/
$10k-$30k, I posted a midrange price. Another site had them as “cheap” as 7k, but either way if you need 2-4 of them it’s not cheap.
That precision engineering has been establishing itself for well over a century, we get the cheaper price thanks to the economy of numbers. piston engines were driven by steam well before ICE. Yes, I am abundantly familiar with ICE engines having built several and in fact have one under assembly in my garage right now. There’s a massive difference between a boring consumer grade crate motor and any purpose-built high-end track motor as far as engineering goes even if the parts are essentially the same.
Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y
You seem to be comparing a crate motor with the full cost of replacement of the Tesla motor. Also, is that the motor, or the whole drive unit, which from my understanding includes the differential?
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
No idea. I equated motor to motor. I assumed that when the price was stated for the electric motor it was for the motor alone, it did not specify motor, transmission unit, controller or management systems.
If you want to compare setups that contain engine and transmission it’s still cheaper on the ICE side. An engine and transmission kit, plus engine controller, can be had for around $15k starting price.
But again, we have to note that only one engine and transmission are required in an ICE car, whereas tesla may require up to four motors. I am also picking modest V8 engines and associated transmissions. You could also pick a 4 cyl Honda engine and transmission for a little over half the cost of the V8 package. A new Honda 1.5l 4 cyl can be had for $2500. Also, again, I am pointing out retail costs. OEM costs will be significantly cheaper.
So yeah…electric motors, installed with or without any transmission parts, are more costly.
Edit: prices for tesla motors did not state it included drive unit, but I am suspicious of the source. I would conservatively place a new OEM motor at 10k retail, single unit, base model.
lime@feddit.nu · 6 pts · 1y
touch screens are a lot cheaper than buttons because you only need the one. and if one trim level of a car has heated seats, they all do because it's a lot cheaper to only produce one kind of seat.
car economics are weird.
LastYearsIrritant@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 1y
Rear cameras are required, which means some sort of screen is required. Might as well make it a touch screen so you can cut costs on wiring and installing buttons if you already need one.
Sunshine@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 1y
Touch screens are actually cheaper than physical buttons as it’s the reason why so many electric cars have them. Most of the cost comes from the batteries so they try to save in other areas.
We should see more physical buttons back in newer electric cars as the batteries get cheaper to mass produce.
makyo@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1y
No kidding, I didn't know that. I did some checking and it says replacement batteries are $5-15k! Well silver lining is the price is dropping precipitously:
Jan 26, 2024 - According to the DOE, the cost of a lithium-ion EV battery was 89 percent lower in 2022 than it was in 2008
noxypaws@pawb.social · 1 pts · 1y
Replacement batteries are really not a concern with EVs. They last longer than most folks expect and they come with pretty lengthy warranties.
It's still ridiculous how expensive they are to repair or replace, and for sure that will hit some folks hard, but it really should be quite rare to replace an EV's battery
Iampossiblyatwork@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1y
My guess is that none of them are at scale to the point where the margins are great. To make the margins acceptable price had to go up.
Nothing is really profitable in auto until the whole production line is operating at full scale.
makyo@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1y
Yeah that makes sense, I bet you're right or at least that's a large part of it.
Reminds me of this video I saw about economies of scale specifically regarding a special part that went into a guitar. The maker could get the material and produce that part pretty cheaply until the automotive industry stopped using that same material. Suddenly they could barely source the material anymore and just had to cancel the part.
Iampossiblyatwork@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
That's crazy but makes sense. Basically benefiting from autos overflow.
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
RowRowRowYourBot@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 1y
arotrios@lemmy.world · 25 pts · 1y
Someone's doing the happy hunny dance....
prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works · 24 pts · 1y
Canada has the same incentive to not open the door to Chinese EVs that the US does.
Why would they shoot themselves in the face just to splash some blood on someone else?
Gewoonmoi@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 1y
Canada doesn't have the incentives that the Americans have at all. Correct me if I'm wrong. America's incentive is to protect its own EV industry, Canada doesn't have an EV industry of its own.
chakan2@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
The incentive for the US is the US government can spy on its citizens. China could care less if you drove to planned parenthood last week...The Republicans on the other hand want to burn people at the stake for it.
Elon gets the added bonus of whacking off to people doing unsavory things in his cars.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 1y
You're wrong. Just the nature of of the auto industry makes it a little confusing since the entirety of a car isn't manufactured in one country. But there are a lot of components for EVs manufactured in Canada. There's especially a focus on manufacturing batteries for EVs which is the single most important component in an EV. And more plants for battery manufacturing are under construction.
FabledAepitaph@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1y
What is the reason btw? Genuinely asking because I dunno
prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 1y
It isn’t that an inexpensive electric vehicle from China is bad, in fact that’s great.
The issue is that the cars are subsidized at such a rate that it goes beyond domestic incentive and into “we’ll just make sure no matter what we can sell for less than the competition” in an effort to drive any competition out of business.
It’s an anticompetitive practice that has significant impacts if allowed unchecked.
This is not meant as a value statement about the west, USA or Canada … as in I’m not saying “China bad when they do it, west good when they do it” because it’s bad when it’s done by whoever does it.
Effectively it’s a lever to weaponize fair trade and that’s antithetical to the idea of fair trade, at least insomuch as the international community tends to agree.
BehindTheBarrier@programming.dev · 5 pts · 1y
A worthwhile note is also that pretty much all US car manufacturers have dragged their feet doing EVs, excluding Tesla. So naturally US car manufacturers are struggling a lot with the massive costs related to adopting EVs now, and struggle competing with a country that spent this money getting established a good while ago.
The subsidies are still a problem, but the 100% tax is in my view a massive handout to domestic manufacturers that never bothered to try until they were behind. That 100% price increase in Chinese will probably mean high margins on EVs for yet some years before cheap alternatives come along.
prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works · 0 pts · 1y
It’s a fuck you to European partners also.
Fucking someone over isn’t worth fucking everyone over.
WoodScientist@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 1y
Why does that matter to Canada? They don't make their own EVs. They have no domestic manufacturers to protect against dumping. Might as well just get as many cheap vehicles as you can, while you can.
Jhex@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1y
Yes but Canada has no EV industry... so, even if it's just temporarily to provide Canadians with an option while telling American companies to suck it... what's the problem?
Are we really going to say we don't to business with China because of anti-competitive practices when we have been doing business with American doing WAY worse all along?
prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 1y
It’s not just US companies harmed.
One also would think more long term and hope for better relations with Canada and USA having more cooperative relations especially as it pertains to an auto market.
Regardless harming your European allies to spite the US isn’t ideal either.
Jhex@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
Who else is harmed in this case?
Why? this is exactly what we had and Trump destroyed... why would be trust them again? ever?... even if we go back to a trade agreement, there should be hard guarantees in place to be able to trust the USA again in pretty much anything
Why would that be the case at all? I am all for opening the Canadian market to European auto makers (very few make it here)... Most people who can afford it never buy American cars anyway as they are fairly low in everything when compared to Asian or European brands.
Why would reducing tariffs on Chinese EVs harm European allies when we already barely allow them into the Canadian market?
Ledericas@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y
thats only from the us standpoint, canada doesnt have thier ev industry, so theres no competition to begin with. Canada doesnt have any EV production capabilities, i dont see how it affects them. sure they are importing cars, theres nothing to compete to, because canada isnt making cars with EV.
jagged_circle@feddit.nl · 24 pts · 1y
I dont think there is a single privacy friendly EV on the market.
If a Canadian company could build and export an EV that wasn't loaded with invasive sensors and where the data recording and uploading was opt-in (or non existent), loads of US Americans and Europeans would import them from Canada.
HK65@sopuli.xyz · 13 pts · 1y
I think you can expand that to all cars, not just EVs.
neons@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 1y
I'm pretty sure the VW E-Up is (can be made) privacy friendly (the datamodule that sends the data to VW and into your account can be replaced with an OVMS datamodule)
madejackson@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
I hope aptera will save us.
Typotyper@sh.itjust.works · 21 pts · 1y
Ban the fucking things.
Offer loan forgiveness to any Tesla owner. Tell musk to fuck off.
wheeldawg@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 1y
Watch the Republicans start a civil war against themselves with the people who accept the buyout vs the ones "paying their dues" to their Lord and Savior.
xmunk@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 1y
Don't offer loan forgiveness... force Tesla to do a full recall - it's not like actions need to be logically justified these days...
Hacksaw@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 1y
We could just pass a law that says any car with more than 10 fatalities per 100k units is unsafe and has to be recalled and refunded. No car has come even close. It's 17 times worse than a Ford Pinto.
https://www.rawstory.com/cybertruck-2671127676/
Yoga@lemmy.ca · 21 pts · 1y
BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca · 14 pts · 1y
It's not about being competitive against Chinese EVs, it's about preventing China from attacking us economically, politically, and potentially even digitally.
These aren't just dumb vehicles, they're running Chinese made software, for a Chinese company, and reporting data back to China.
They're not just manufactured in China like you may have with other digital devices, with the software control and data residing in more friendly nations.
That matters.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 1y
If your paranoia wins, then dumb EVs are cheaper than FSD. Tesla will be reporting data back to US. These are issues that only arise because you are committed to having a war on China, as bestest idea ever for Canadian prosperity. USA current war on us should be a bigger concern.
BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 1y
Western car companies are not beholden to western governments in the same way that companies in China are. We have laws against government intervention like that here, while China explicitly mandates the opposite.
Sure laws can change, but right now the situation is extremely clear in terms of who we should trust.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · -2 pts · 1y
You innocent child. AI has become a national security imperative, with AI companies devoted to military applications. The most important military application is control over your throughts, just as all media devoted to US supremacy/warmongering/control over your thoughts. American companies are loyal to "national security" orders, and if that means killing you, then they will.
To protect myself here, Israel should finish the job.
BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 1y
I don't live in the US and I don't drive an American made car, I'm not worried about the South Korean government forcing Kia to brick my vehicle.
I said "western car companies" not US car companies specifically.
nik282000@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 1y
Correlation attacks, China is king of hoovering up data.
Overly dramatic example: you are in the armed forces, you have a TikTok account, you post a bunch of shit that shows you are in the armed forces. You get deployed for some covert fuckabout and are told to leave your phone at home. You turn off your phone, pick up 3 of your buddies in your Chinese EV and drive to the base/airport/sea port. Dozens of people do this and by seeing the pattern China knows that a bunch of armed forces are being told to quietly deploy.
A less dramatic example might be figuring out where politicians are by knowing where their employees are.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 1y
You are right, that if US is destined for war on China, then there are clear security risks. It is a horrible destiny that no one in US should think they have the slightest hope of winning, and then thinking it is not actual destiny could be a rational hope.
nik282000@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1y
I'm talking about Canada and not about a war.
During peace times it is not in Canada's interest for China to know where all our politicians are, it is not in Canada's interest for China to know where where Canadian military and law enforcement are. It's not in Canada's interest for any entity to be able to tell where specific people or groups of people are at any time.
De-spying should not only apply to Chinese cars but all cars and mobile devices.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
During peace time, they will not want to assassinate anyone, or worry about soldier movements.
The US has that power. They spy on allies. Insufficient enthusiasm for the empire can get you JFKd. China can't reach us as easily.
Yes. We'd have better chance of putting up firewalls/protections/open source solutions without data collection on Chinese EVs than domestic ones.
GameGod@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 1y
It's not about software or data. It's about control over the supply chain - cars are essential to our economy and way of life in North America (like it or not). It's the same reason we protect the milk supply. You don't want another country to be able to turn it off in a conflict.
Yoga@lemmy.ca · -2 pts · 1y
Showroom7561@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 1y
Considering that EVs are now ranked as the worst offenders for spying on people, just imagine if China was being fed live audio/video + locations of all their customers. They could effectively set up actual surveillance that saturates every populated square meter of the country (including in people's garages or driveways!) through the Trojan horse of affordable EVs.
We should be cautious.
That said, if China can provide safe and affordable EVs that aren't connected to the internet... basically a dumb car that runs on batteries... it would be a much better thing for anyone considering a new vehicle.
Personally, I'd rather support Canadian, European, or Japanese auto manufacturers.
Yoga@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
Showroom7561@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1y
Tariffs aside, the EU is already making it so cars with fewer screens and more buttons will get a higher safety rating.
That's a step in the right direction, and hopefully, the requirement for all vehicles to have an "offline mode" will be implemented soon, too.
BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1y
In case you hadn't noticed, Chinese devices are frequently banned in Canada, especially for government use.
Chinese gear in telecom networks is either not allowed or being phased out. Chinese cellphones are not allowed for government use. Chinese apps are not allowed on government machines.
I do believe cars are a meaningful attack vector, with enough market penetration the ability to just "turn them off" could cripple the country, and there's not much point in letting them in if we limit the percentage down to something that would lessen the impact.
Yoga@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1y
Why do you think there wouldn't be an outright war with China?
They plan on invading Taiwan at some point, and we'll probably be funding the defence there.
They've already got paid at that point, and with the sanctions we're likely to slap on them we wouldn't be buying more anyways, so why wouldn't they just brick all the existing cars in retaliation? or use it as a threat to try to keep us from retaliating?
Yoga@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 1y
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
That is the rationale, if Trump destroys our auto industry, to get better value cars for net prosperity of Canadians even if we lose our very highly subsidized auto industry.
The future (present in China) of car manufacturing is robotics, and EVs require fewer parts that Canadians have specialized in. Still, Canadian resources and manufacturing can help build EVs cheaply here, and worth investing or nationalizing legacy car plants to help bring construction jobs and value to Canadians.
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org · 20 pts · 1y
That feels like "robbing Peter to pay Paul". We don't want to be dependent on either nationalist autocracy.
RowRowRowYourBot@sh.itjust.works · 20 pts · 1y
Prandom_returns@lemm.ee · 18 pts · 1y
Yes, more Chinese infrastructure, that phones home and can be turned off remotely, with a switch, is definitely what the West need.
Septapus@lemmy.ca · 17 pts · 1y
The world needs to tariff ALL elon companies and move away from American products/offerings in general. We need something to replace AWS in the worst way. The world needs to remember the corporations foreign and domestic that helped faciliate this and freeze them out because if they do it here in the US they WILL do it in your countries too. Toyota helped fund 1/6 for example. I will never buy a toyota because of it and elons companies will never get any patronage from me either.
jsomae@lemmy.ml · 17 pts · 1y
I hope EVs don't get a bad name out of all this. EVs are one of the few good things to come out of the last decade or so.
Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee · 16 pts · 1y
Why just a tariff? Just ban all Tesla vehicle imports and all sales of new Tesla vehicles. For owners of existing vehicles they should be offered a generous buyback and equally generous loan terms for a new or used car. That would encourage most Tesla owners to trade-in their vehicles.
chiliedogg@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 1y
Seize all Musk and Trump-owned assets.
LMurch@thelemmy.club · 3 pts · 1y
Make the USA a Canadian province! Oops, got carried away.
socialjusticewizard@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 1y
That's too far. Just parcel out the east (well, some of the east) and west coast into separate nations and form an alliance with those ones. They should stay separate, at least until they can get over their gun and money craze.
YesButActuallyMaybe@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1y
chiliedogg@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
Our version of good manners is Southern Hospitality.
We have the most polite racism.
chakan2@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 1y
Please please please...BYD is making super cheap Tesla killers. I'd love to get my hands on one.
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 1y
$15k EV... Yes Please!!!
Nah you wouldn't want one, they're bare bones.
Okay, add $5k worth of options = $20k EV... Yes Please!!!
drmoose@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 1y
I have driven byd and some other Chinese brands and it's a really great experience minus the shitty touch screen UX. That being said I wouldn't trust China to run my car ever. Everything is locked down and it absolutely spies on you. I wouldn't trust my life with that to save a bit of money.
Just buying a 2nd hand ice vehicle is better for you and the environment if you're looking for a affordable option.
GameGod@lemmy.ca · 7 pts · 1y
I'd be way more concerned about whether it's a deathtrap than whether or not the touchscreen has good UX, lol.
drmoose@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 1y
Those are not mutually exclusive. The ux is incredibly dangerous especially here in sunny and wet south east asia where China is exporting a lot of cars now. Many accidents are making the news where the driver didn't see something cause they're fucking with the stupid controls instead of driving.
We don't allow smart phone use while driving but somehow giant tablet in the middle of the car is ok.
MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee · 8 pts · 1y
I have this problem in my gas-burning Mazda because of the horrible touch screen that won’t work half the time and has options buried in it.
I cannot believe there haven’t been lawsuits to stop this BS yet
LuckyPierre@lemm.ee · 3 pts · 1y
Exactly - and the new EU safety standards will be limiting the size of screens in cars because of this.
https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/5/24091043/euro-ncap-safety-rating-europe-2026-touchscreen-buttons-dials
LuckyPierre@lemm.ee · 4 pts · 1y
Tesla spies on you as much if not more, and is famous for locking out features. I'm not sure there's much difference.
Nissan, BMW, Citroen all have a bunch of other lock-in too, but perhaps less than Chinese and American cars.
drmoose@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
That's true and you shouldn't trust Tesla either.
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
Do they export enough to internationalize the UI, or do people who don't understand Chinese have to puzzle it out?
drmoose@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
Its fully localized in any language they're exporting too.
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1y
Then "the shitty touch screen UX" must refer to something else.
drmoose@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
Yes cause localization us all you need for good user experience! /s
vegantomato@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 1y
Bad idea. China isn't better than the US, and their EVs are a safety and security risk in and of themselves.
I can imagine Canada being in a position to collaborate with friendly countries to develop a safe, secure and open alternative to Tesla and "CCP-mobiles". If that becomes a reality, everyone benefits.
VisionScout@lemmy.wtf · 13 pts · 1y
now canada needs to invest in proper public transportation, so in the future people wouldn't need to buy a car just for day to day life.
GameGod@lemmy.ca · 12 pts · 1y
The thing is, if Trump wants to kill Canada's role in US car manufacturing, then it will cost him the car markets in Mexico and Canada. If there's no jobs here to protect, then we'll just drop the tariffs on Chinese EVs. (This is speaking like 20 years down the road). We'll all be driving Chinese cars in that scenario. The tariffs are a total lose-lose situation, so dumb.
jerkface@lemmy.ca · 11 pts · 1y
The benefit of a tarrif on Tesla vs opening the market to China is that we can easily undo it if there is a US coup, Trump gets medicated, gets burned, whatever. There's still the potential that this is a temporary situation, not the new reality. If we open up to a third party, we can't put the genie back in the bottle.
hopesdead@startrek.website · 10 pts · 1y
Good, the tariffs that is.
Carighan@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 1y
"Open the door to Chinese EVs" isn't a simple solution because it has wider reaches than restricting Tesla-imports. There's a reason Germany just effected tariffs on chinese EVs, namely because they are arguing that as china subsidizes their EVs, naturally non-subsidized local companies could never be price-competitive.
I don't know how that situation is in canada, but I bet similar things have to be looked at.
I like the solution, but it's not a simple one.
Showroom7561@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 1y
Electrek (the publisher of the article) seems to be a bit of a shill for Chinese EV companies, or he's getting some kind of commission. He's repeatedly promoted Chinese factories, goes on Chinese factory tours, etc... I don't know what the angle is, but it's vastly different from similar sources like Electroheads out of the UK.
That said, fuck Tesla.
Also, Canada should invest in building more micromobility devices here, like e-bikes, e-scooters, etc. The future isn't cars, and we need more affordable, accessible modes of transportation.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 1y
They are a shill for best EV options to have EVs everywhere. China has good EVs, and more than 50% of car sales are EVs because they are good. Our EVs are improving rapidly, and sales growth is good without achieving China levels, but their tech trickles down to us as slow as it is.
Electrek also shills ebikes. Mostly NA brands even if they are made in China. Agree that these are awesome urban mobility options.,
zeepintor@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 1y
How about japanese ones? :P Better invest on our own infrastructure, we need Canadian EVs!
Tungsten5@lemm.ee · 9 pts · 1y
Lol goodbye tesla if that happens
LuckyPierre@lemm.ee · 3 pts · 1y
They've been on sale in Europe for years and Tesla kept market share. Many everyday E-cars are chinese (MG, BYD etc), with Nissan and Citroen too.
But that was before the past couple of months and Tesla is now suffering hugely from reduced sales (70% in some countries) - but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Chinese ecars.
LeFantome@programming.dev · 4 pts · 1y
The Swaticar is losing popularity in Europe?
eestileib@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y
Their sales have dropped by half since the US election.
thijsje@social.vivaldi.net · 2 pts · 1y
@eestileib @LeFantome Those are rookie numbers. You got to tank those numbers further!
ProgrammingSocks@pawb.social · 8 pts · 1y
I AM MANIFESTING THIS PLEASE 🙏
NightCrawlerProMax@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 1y
That would be like replacing evil with another evil. CCP are not angels.
drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 1y
Is china the only other country that makes EVs?
Onemadmother@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 1y
Why not do both? I like public transit idea but does not work for smaller/rural communities
Slayan@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 1y
We dont need chinese ev to wreck US car industry. We need toyota and their hilux truck brand. We could build a toyota electric car manufacture around quebec's battery shop and a toyota hilux around alberta.
Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 1y
If things keep getting worse, could Canada in theory steal IP and just try to make the best EV it can by copying others including Tesla (if it’s worth copying)?
It’s a great time to boost Canadian manufacturing. Hint hint Ottawa
IrateAnteater@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 1y
On that front, they pretty much already were doing that. The big battery plant in Windsor should be ready to start ramping up production later this year. There was a lot more, but most of it has been paused since Ford decided to delay EV production at Oakville.
ThePantser@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 1y
Yes there is no reason they wouldn't be able to. Russia is doing it with all the companies that pulled out. The McDonald's there is still running with Russian supplies*
Historically, companies like coke during WW2 when they lost access to the syrup invented Fanta. Wasn't the same product as it is now but they still went their own way during war times.
*I have not verified if this is still true but it was when the war began and MD pulled out.
psx_crab@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 1y
Guess how China climb out of the poverty: copycat.
SabinStargem@lemmings.world · 5 pts · 1y
I think Europe or Canada should make EVs, and Greenland being given incentives to tap into their minerals to feed the materials necessary for the project. Greenland gets closer to independence, and whoever makes the cars gets to piss on Musk. Win-win, no need for the risk of CCP becoming too influential within democratic governments.
...While trade is a good thing, I think that maintaining at least a moderate level of manufacturing industry and sciences within your nation or cultural sphere to be very important. Just in case things get weird, like how 2025 has been.
ToiletFlushShowerScream@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1y
Or maintain and drive the car you already have. There are more options then Tesla and BYD. These are probably the worst options.
sunfur82@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 1y
I was thinking the same thing. I always thought one of the main reasons for the 100% tariffs was to be in line with what the US wanted. But with things being the way they are, I think we should open the door for Chinese EVs. If it benefits Canada, we should do it. I'm not well versed on the Chinese EVs, but from some of the documentaries I've seen, the quality is comparable to the US models, if not better, due to the features that they pack into their base models. I know that there are concerns about eavesdropping and data collection, but isn't that a risk with the US too? And especially the way the US is now, I'd trust them even less. Because it goes beyond the data collection, it goes to their intention of annexation.
I'd rather we open the door to Chinese EVs, or any other competitors, just so our trade is more diversified. (I'm not familiar with the infrastructure investments that would be required for Chinese EVs, or policy adjustments, I just think it's something that should be seriously explored and implemented, just so we're not so dependent on the US alone).
frazw@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1y
In that article it is mentioned that Trump is going back on an agreement he signed a few years ago.
Therefore agreements made with Trump do not mean anything. He will choose not to honour them if and when it is convenient to him.
But then I guess we already knew that from his business practices.
The art of the deal is to make the other side believe you are honourable, use that credibility to offer more than you intend to give and leverage them to give you what you want. Then invent a pretext to cancel the deal and keep your ill-gotten gains.
The problem with governments dealing with trump is that they trust him to be true to his word. I do not believe he will. I fear he will use this approach with Ukraine to hand them over to Poo-tin. Then when it's to late for the international community to do anything he'll just say Zelenskyy didn't hold up his end of the bargain.
Gewoonmoi@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1y
Tesla stands no chance to compete with Chinese vehicles. It's wild how high quality and cheap these Chinese cars are.
derpgon@programming.dev · 8 pts · 1y
I wouldn't really call the high quality tbh. At least better than Tesla.
Gewoonmoi@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1y
Supposedly, the quality is amazing. Here in the Netherlands, a car called Zeekr is making the rounds. They're supposed to be terrific cars. And that's a brand I had never heard of until a few weeks ago
derpgon@programming.dev · 3 pts · 1y
I wouldn't really trust these "rumors" on how amazing these cars are, will see in a year or two when the first problems start to appear. But hey, if they are actually well made, don't have 90% of controls hidden behind a tough screen and don't need to connect to the internet or spy on me, the better
Gewoonmoi@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
It's a big problem, yes.
Bzdalderon@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 1y
If they care about the environment at all they will. If they care about their people at all, they already would have.
Grass@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 1y
I still want diy builds to be eligible for hov lane sticker and rebates when they have those
Someone@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1y
As long as we jack up the tariffs on Chinese built Teslas. Otherwise that's exactly what Tesla's been asking for.
orbituary@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 1y
Why not both?
magnetosphere@fedia.io · 2 pts · 1y
We know that new(er) cars have spyware controlled by some government or corporation. If my privacy is going to be violated, I’d rather have a hostile gov/co do it. I’m not a government employee. When it comes to national security, I’m a complete nobody. I don’t give a shit what Beijing knows about my life, because they don’t care, and probably won’t share info with the West. Maybe they’ll share it with Russia, but again, that’s irrelevant to me.
I want Washington (and, to a much lesser extent, Ottawa) to know as little as possible, because I don’t trust them, and it’s much, much easier for them to make my life difficult if they want to.
I’d like to hear your opinions on this take.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
By far, you should worry about your own government disapproving of you, and then using your car to kill you. Worrying about China only applies if your government helps force war on China. Probably the reaction to war on China, by China, is bricking your car instead of targeting everyone to crash or become an Israeli pager.
jagged_circle@feddit.nl · 2 pts · 1y
Why can't you guys make your own? Its not hard. Musk figured it out.
LeFantome@programming.dev · 20 pts · 1y
No he didn’t. They were already making them when he got there.
jagged_circle@feddit.nl · -1 pts · 1y
OK, but the design is very simple. Even Musk could figure it out alone. LiFEPO4 18650 packs have been plentiful before Tesla. All they did was add a bus that melts at excess temps
Litebit@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 1y
musk didn't build anything.
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org · 2 pts · 1y
I mean, we literally can and have (as a concept car). Should I link my recent post here about it?
jagged_circle@feddit.nl · 1 pts · 1y
Yes
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org · 2 pts · 1y
It's a bit early to repost, but since you you directly asked, here, federated onto your instance.
wheeldawg@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 1y
Is 200% not legal?
Why not 10,000%?
jaxxed@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1y
Get them to help build factories in Canada
Arkouda@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
Switching from one Authoritarian to another is never the solution.
ragepaw@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
Why not both?
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
There needs to be some coercion of Canadian present (foreign) auto industry to make a committment to their Canadian operations.
https://nypost.com/2025/03/04/us-news/united-auto-workers-union-praises-trumps-tariffs-on-canada-and-mexico/
There's certainly a danger for industry to cower to Trump, and help sacrifice Canada. A tariff level that is meant to raise revenue while still making Canadian industry/dealer network competitive, is a good starting point to "semi-welcome" dealership/repair or bigger investments from China into Canada. Trump has said he wants to get China to invest in EV manufacturing in US. Holding evil attitudes towards China because the US told us to apply their same tariffs without even talking to China, is simply an anti-Canadian attitude.
Overall tariff reductions on China is path to get a stronger Canadian retail sector that gains volume from US crossborder shopping and lower prices for Canadians as they also dump US alternatives. Deleting America program should be our common mission, and it is only through that mission, that "sense" will take place in Trump's cabinet, and then "undelete America" can happen again.
HikingVet@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 1y
Would the Chinese EVs even meet our safety standards?
villasv@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 1y
Almost certainly, because our safety standards are garbage, because we force ourselves to be in lockstep with NHTSA as to not make trade and travel difficult with the US
usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 1y
That's my concern as well. Seeing what happened with the cheap hoverboards and ebikes makes me wary of being too lenient on these.
noxypaws@pawb.social · 1 pts · 1y
You should also worry about if Chinese EVs meet reasonable labor standards. Which they don't.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
They meet EU standards.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 1y
China isn't morally superior to Elon Musk lol
MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 1y
In a geopolitical sense, they are more useful to us right now for two reasons:
Any shot that hits Tesla hits America incredibly effectively as Tesla is one of the Magnificent 7, which means it has an outsized effect on the American markets/economy.
Showing America that the world is ready to decouple from it and support to its rival over this nonsense is a powerful signal/threat.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 1y
Okay, but you're threatening the black bear by feeding the young grizzly.
MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 1y
Which is more of a threat, the bear actually threatening to eat you or the one an ocean away?
And to make things more interesting, which is worse for the world, the country doing their damnedest to make climate change worse or the one that has essentially single-handedly made solar power a viable alternative?
finitebanjo@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1y
China might have low emissions per capita but they've abandoned decreasing their capita. Bears can fucking swim.
MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 1y
Source on the abandoning decreasing emissions? They're shuttering coal plants, starting the world's largest hydro electric project, pumping out the next generation of EV cars, massively funding green tech etc. And I'm hard pressed to find anything comparable in America's course.
And sure, bears can swim but few can do so over an ocean. Even a casual understanding of modern history or an ounce of common sense should show you how much easier it is to invade a country next door than it is to maintain supply lines across an ocean.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1y
First of all, I said they're not decreasing their capita anymore. That means they're no longer limiting population growth.
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-formulate-policies-elderly-focus-boosting-birth-rates-2025-03-05/
Secondly, also yes
https://www.iea.org/reports/co2-emissions-in-2023/energy-intensive-economic-growth-compounded-by-unfavourable-weather-pushed-emissions-up-in-china-and-india
China emits the most out of anywhere and is only set to continue increasing, unless they get overtaken by India as number 1.
MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y
I thought you had a typo... You're unimpressed because China has... population growth?
And yes, in the path to decarbonization, they've been explicit that it's a process. You cannot expect a developing economy to instaneously transition to a net zero economy while growing, that's an insane ask.
If you read the second article you linked a bit more closely, you'll note that they are talking about China's rapid development. It would be absurd to imagine an economy growing that rapidly could do so while keeping their total emissions the same.
Meanwhile though, how does this compare to America? What major decarbonization efforts are they undergoing? To my understanding, they are so hell bent on undoing Green projects that they are even cancelling those that Biden put in red districts in an attempt to shield them from the Republicans almost sociopathic disregard for climate change. So, in a question of whom we'd prefer on climate policy, I'm not quite understanding what the heck you're trying to say? China's not perfect but you can see a path to climate neutrality, without wishful thinking, do you see anything comparable at a Federal level in America?
WarlockoftheWoods@lemy.lol · -1 pts · 1y
Lmao, you are bitching about Americans and you want to give your business to fucking China? Honestly, not much better. They will be spying on your whole fucking infrastructure in 3 years.
Alpha71@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 1y
The main reason why Chinese cars (all of them) aren't allowed in North America is most don't pass our strict Safety standards. What needs to happen is provinces need to allow mini EV's. There are wonderful little single or two seater EV's that only do 30 Kmh, and can do 50 to 100 km's in range. But aren't allowed legally on the road. You can get them for like 5K.
Killer57@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 1y
I am sick and tired of people claiming that BYD are unsafe They have crash tested better than my current vehicle.
Duckabush@lemmings.world · 2 pts · 1y
Right I came here to say this as well.
psx_crab@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 1y
"Safety" you say. So why do you have Cybertruck, the kind of car that isn't safe for anyone? Removing signal stick is not safety either.
damo_omad@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
I find this hard to believe considering in Aus most of the EVs are Chinese and our safety standards are probably the highest compared to any country. A lot of BYDs available now.
jaxxed@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1y
They have gotten mucn netter
Wilco@lemm.ee · -3 pts · 1y
Chinese EVs are very dangerous because of low quality standards. There are plenty of videos with batteries catching fire and the EVs burning up in the middle of the road.
Jhex@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 1y
There are tons of those videos from Teslas.... so unless you have a legit source showing Chinese EVs are more dangerous than Tesla's, your comment is nothing but an annecdote
LuckyPierre@lemm.ee · 6 pts · 1y
This is not true.
derpgon@programming.dev · 1 pts · 1y
This is also not true.
LeFantome@programming.dev · 3 pts · 1y
Canada can set safety standards however they want. Chinese EVs are available elsewhere, like Australia. Are they catching fire there?
Or is there one video in China where these vehicles already sell in huge numbers?
Ledericas@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y
and australia is very hot too, which makes batteries prone to heating up.
Wilco@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y
Apparently they are.
https://youtu.be/gGepSEOacVA
gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 1y
Your opinions on the Cyber truck? (An American EV that is very dangerous because of low quality standards)
Wilco@lemm.ee · 1 pts · 1y
Those have design issues like rust (stainless steel rusting is a bit odd).
eestileib@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 1y
There are plenty of videos of gasoline cars burning too. Turns out packing a shitload of energy into a small volume is dangerous.
bountygiver@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1y
Also people underestimate how often ICE cars combust (they are still rare enough that it is likely you never encounter one yourself, but there are A LOT OF CARS that make it happens quite frequently), they are just common enough to not get reported if no one got injured from it
CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de · -3 pts · 1y
The whole “China bad America good” concept has been put in a different light of late.
Does EU/North America fear truly China because of its expansionist policies, or simply because their skin is a different colour? It’s not like the USA is above tampering in foreign government and bugging electronics.
I say go for it, Canada. If only because it’ll push Tesla off the scoreboard without the tariffs. They can’t compete.
Rade0nfighter@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 1y
I think a big part of why western countries “fear” china in the automotive space relates to local companies’ workers being expected to compete in a race to the bottom for compensation for labourers.
Just look at the fashion industry - sales of five dollar dresses made by workers at shein in miserable conditions dwarf those of 200 dollar dresses produced by local workers with a comfortable quality of life.
CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de · 2 pts · 1y
This is a fair point. China treats workers poorly, and they leverage labour camps for minorities.
IrateAnteater@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 1y
The only difference is that "China bad America Good" has shifted to "China bad, America also bad". None of the issues people have with China have magically gone away.
FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 1y
Exactly this. Why is this so hard for people to understand. China Russia the US and Israel can all be bad at once! Hating one doesn't mean you have to side with the other!
Ledericas@lemm.ee · 2 pts · 1y
the skin, china has been making stuff that is cheaper than american/western sourced, and they dint like it, especially with the ev situation. granted chinas other tech not so much, because china rather industrially espionage in most cases, even thier "research" is scrutinized by peer review alot.
also chinas expansion policies, they almost never follow through, or does it in a way its very slow moving.
gutsnsuch@lemm.ee · -21 pts · 1y