I'm not even that tech illiterate, but I almost did that... My laptop was being slow, and I still had like 4k€ in overtime hours that I could buy Hardware from at work (it's a great deal because I neither have to pay VAT on the hardware nor income taxes on the money from the overtime), so I was like, eh, might as well get a new laptop.
So then I read up on what laptop brands are out there, found out about Framework, and when I excitedly told my electrical engineer husband about it he was like "You knooow that you can easily replace parts in any laptop, right?"
Well, I didn't know that (just kinda assumed laptops were more like phones than they are like desktop PCs), so I ended up just ordering a new SSD and new RAM for my laptop. It's back to being butter smooth, but I have a hunch that cleaning the dust from the fans while I was in there was a very large factor in that haha
I used to work at a locally run computer store, and one of the biggest upgrades for most people was going from a mechanical hard drive to an SSD. Made a night and day difference.
Ooh, totally! I did have an SSD in there before, but it was only 256GB, so I had to store most files on the HDD and be extremely selective about what to install to C:. Going up to 8TB felt very liberating, I no longer have to fear that an npm install might crash my whole machine! (at least not due to space constraints, npm will figure out how to crash it for other reasons)
If the crashing stopped by replacing the SSD probably the SSD is end-of-life. SSDs basically wear down with each write action and when they reach their terabytes written limit they can start crashing the system during read and write actions. Also the smaller the SSD the lower the terabytes written limit is. 256GB drives are on the low end, so not surprising that you reached that limit.
That might be the case too! I do believe it was more of a skill issue in my case because I was booting Linux Mint from a 40GB partition (couldn't free any more space than that on the old SSD) and enabled too many system backups (they recommended 2 daily and 2 on boot, and I just followed the recommendation without thinking about the space implications). Those alone put me at around 35-38GB of used space, and an npm install is usually around 1 GB, but log and temp files can sometimes balloon up when things go wrong. So it wasn't really a crash per say, just Mint's "shut down the system when you run out of storage space" protection triggering haha
I've been pretty much upgrading my own desktop PC regularly since the 90s (though I did buy a brand new one 6 years ago).
In my experience the upgrade that's more likelly to improve it the cheapest is RAM, then a graphics card if you're a gamer.
Upgrading the CPU has always been something that happens less often and also it doesn't help that the CPU can only be upgrade up to a point without having to replace the motherboard (which then forces replacing the RAM and possibly even the PC box).
However there were two transition periods were the best upgrade by far was something else: the first was back in the day when hardware 3D accelerator boards were invented (Quake with a 3dfx was night and day compared to software rendering) and the other one was the transition for HDD to SSD, both being massive jumps in performance.
I think there's still a pretty big asterisk on that, because laptop parts are generally not built to be swappable... So I don't think you can swap the CPU without the rest of the mainboard, and some parts like the CPU cooler are probably tied to the specific variant of mainboard and need to be swapped together if you want to switch CPUs.
They do let you swap out parts that are reasonably swappable, so it's pretty much a guarantee you'll be able to upgrade storage and memory, and even where you can't swap to different parts they make sure you can replace broken parts more granularly, so it still seems like a good deal.
The logic board has the CPU built in, that's true. However, the Framework 16 has a swappable GPU and all models make the ports independent of the logic board through a USB-C-based expansion module system. So that's even a few parts other manufacturer might consider unreasonable.
(Also, to be fair, I forgot one other thing most laptops let you swap: The WiFi/BT card, if only because it's cheaper to have that on a swappable module.)
Wow that's an amazing amount of dust. I think that's the most I have seen in a computer and my only source of laptop used to be old things from recycling centers
Could be explained by the fact that my favorite position to program is on my bed, like a teenage girl from a mediocre 2000's movie writing in her diary. The laptop fans get a taste of all that good good bed sheet fiber.
I use mine on a sofa (for gaming, even!), but I get around the issue a bit by having a pad under the laptop. It's literally just a hard plastic board with a beanbag attached underneath, I think I got it from IKEA. It isolates the laptop a bit from dust and improves airflow + lets it heat up without burning my knees + the one I have is just large enough that I can also use my wireless mouse on it when I push my laptop to the left.
That's why I will nab computers out of the trash if I see 'em. Most of them still have perfectly functional modern parts. A lot of the time, the only thing that even needs replacing is the PSU.
I think the issue is not having a desktop-type computer at all and having a tablet/phone that’s so locked down the kid isn’t given the opportunity to explore or troubleshoot.
Tinkering is how you learn to solve problems, which requires having something tinker-able without having to go down a hacky rabbithole.
I know a bit about teaching about computers/programming to kids in the first years of high school. Their understanding of anything computer is abysmal. They have grown up with smartphones and maybe tablet, never were able to tinker with anything. Even just what internet is was confusing to them. It had to be reframed as “when can you watch youtube” for it to make sense…
Great read, exactly what I experienced. On the other hand, we also really want to think about what knowledge is really important. Is knowing the difference between Internet and World Wide Web necessary? Or is programming in a random language? Knowledge is power, but there is just so much you can learn. Starting knowing that you don’t know and it’s not magic is, to me, already a great step, because from there you can learn. Expecting everything to be prepackaged is instead a very passive approach, and that should be discouraged.
Yeah, that "what to absolutely learn" line needs to be established. Basic knowledge of fixing and troubleshooting absolutely should be taught, while scripting and programming is probably not a high priority for many people. Maybe financial/business interested students could learn some scripting, but art and literature students won't really care.
I'm Gen Z, and I cringe at both my classmates and alpha-cusp cousins, my millennial aunts, my xillenial dad, and my boomer grandparents, one of which taught college classes on how to use computers back in the 80s, so idk what happened there...
In the case of my classmates, I can understand that if you're too poor to have a home computer with Windows or Mac, then you won't have many opportunities for computer literacy, cause we used heavily locked-down Chromebooks from 5-12th grade, and while my college library has Windows desktops, I'm not sure if the rental laptops are Windows or Chrome. But grown adults had computer lab, so what happened there?
But still, I've seen mind numbing shit like using the caps key instead of shift when typing (ON PURPOSE, by the way), not using any kind of ad block, not knowing where shit is in phone settings, hell, asking for chargers is "iPhone or Android charger" or "round or flat charger" instead of USB C or lightning.
Troubleshooting is such a big one! Like, you should be able to distinguish between a “I can fix it” issue, a “somebody can fix it” issue and a “my computer burned to the ground” situation… and act accordingly. I’m also okay with the first option being very limited! But please Google your problem until you vaguely understand what’s wrong.
From the educators perspective, they get a lot more brain rot. They dropped in in-person socialization, long and medium term concentration and literacy of any type. I haven’t heard any positives yet… but I also fear that with every year, I am getting closer to the trope of “back in my days”-shake walking cane. So, hopefully someone comes to tell me I’m missing something
Witnessed a radiology resident typing her password into a computer and for each uppercase letter she would press shift-lock, type the letter, then press shift-lock again.
I couldn't figure it out until my mom pointed out she probably only ever used a phone or tablet.
Which is crazy, because I can't imagine getting through high school, college, and medical school without ever working on a desktop computer.
I think the issue is not having a desktop-type computer at all and having a tablet/phone that’s so locked down the kid isn’t given the opportunity to explore or troubleshoot
True. That being said, I'm pretty sure that a Mac is roughly at the middle point between that and a Windows PC, with Linux users being way more tech savvy still.
In fact, so much exploration and troubleshooting being REQUIRED to make most if not all Linux distros do what you want is (along with game compatibility/availability) the main reason for many people who are sick of Windows to be hesitant to make the switch, myself included.
I've been told that exact thing dozens of times with different "just install it and it does everything for you" distro recommendations, and it hasn't been the case with any of the ones I've tried.
I'm not saying that people are lying to me or anything like that, I just think that people underestimate how used they are to using Linux and thus overestimate how easy it is for people who aren't.
Right now, I have Zorin OS on my laptop since that's supposed to be THE easiest one for refugees from Windows to use, and while I'm liking it so far, I'm nowhere near being ready for it to replace Windows on my desktop yet.
I don't even use Linux often, since my institution require me to run windows i use linux rarely.
Zorin OS has just a better ""marketing"" than other distros, the only plus it has is having a familiar GUI and a big community.
some features of bazzite (you can check everthing in bazzite.gg)
Roll back: after every update the previous version of the operating system is retained on your machine. Should an update cause any issues, you can select the previous image at boot time.
SELinux (a more secure version of Linux, it was originally made by both the NSA and redhat) with Secure Boot support
It's more focused in gaming but it work well even in non-gaming situations
Also, it should be harder to break but i think you need to install apps from flatpak (a software store) instead of the package manager tho, i don't remember well.
I don't say it's the easiest one, i just say it's the one i suggest, do what you want, try what you want.
Thought, those plus are more common than what you think (usually because making a good looking GUI is easy on Linux and because most of the distros are derivates of Debian, Arch, Fedora or some other famous distro) so yeah, i wouldn't say it's the best one for begginer, thought i admit it's polished and i would probably use it
Seconding a rec for Bazzite, but please don't make people think that distros this are a silver bullet. I've been running Bazzite for months, and while my experience is MOSTLY issue free, I did have to spend quite a while trying to figure out why certain flatpack apps refused to run sometimes on boot. Still don't know what I did to fix my issue, and it's working reliably, so I'm not going to touch it.....
It's not issue-less but it's pretty much a "work out-of-the box" expirience , you will have 2/3 problems like in EVERY other OSes, you can't say that you didn't had some problems on Windows or macOS
A background of tinkering with stuff without fear of the consequences of breaking it (which is a common mindset mainly amongst kids and teens) is the difference between a tool-maker and a tool-user, IMHO, and thinkering is far more natural to start doing and to do much further with an open system than with a closed system.
striping menue options down for usability and "natural gestures" like swiping caused a whole generation to be able to partake in internet discourse without having a basic understanding of how they got there
I started with a pair of matchsticks and a trenchcoat that I got at Galipoli in WW1, using the Phosphorus I found in the Bosphorus to craft makeshift TI calculator based on specs I got via Fax from a Samurai. I ran slackware on my slacks until we defeated the Ottomans, but they unleashed their puppy linuxes on us, and we stood no chance.
At the Hall of Justice, we join our heroes enjoying a celebratory game of Tuxkart on their PopOS devices after their latest defeat of Lex Luthor's DOS army.
"That was a great buffer underflow, Batman" said Superman, piping his Krypto into a GPG wallet.
"Thank you, Superman. Evil shall think twice before compiling on a non GCC system without warnings enabled!"
Seriously though, I feel like that generation of machines was the last time you could look at hardware and say "yeah, I understand literally everything about how this works" and that knowledge has made even some of my (tech sector) coworkers think I'm a wizard
I can technically claim I started with a hand me down C64 from my grandmother in the early 90s. But I was like 6 years old, and I didn't really get into computers until we got a Windows 95 machine a couple of years later. Though by 99-2000 I was regularly playing around with the C64 for the novelty of what felt like ancient tech.
I remember using dialup internet on windows 98 in the late 90s to look up how to use the C64.
Yeah, it was just MSDOS. I saw "Abort, retry, fail" so many times, and I didn't even know what it meant because I was four and I just wanted to play Family Feud with my brother.
I know you’re joking but this is how a lot replies here feel. Kids don’t even know how to program using punch cards anymore smh.
40 years from now the newest generation will be saying “Grandpa doesn’t even know know what a Cyber Tibulator Strip is let alone how to use it. If you need him he’s out back yelling at clouds.”
Don’t get me wrong here, tech literacy is low but when has it not been?
Are you joking? C64 was the bomb back in the day! My Atari and Amiga mates were enjoying colors and music and games while I had sat there on my colourless, mute PC. All I had was Flight Simulator 2 in black and white. And DrBrush for drawing in Hercules "graphics" mode.
Hot take: macOS, being Unix like, fosters more tech literacy than Windows.
It's much better now with windows terminal and winget, but a decade or so ago even basic things like installing python and adding it to PATH were infinitely easier on Unix-like environments.
For those privileged to have programming classes, the first 2-3 sessions were the teachers going round doing tech support just to install python on shitty locked down Windows laptops.
Windows being terrible makes you learn a lot of stuff, but so much of it is untransferrable.
The 1000 little interface stupidities is what gets me on Mac, like making "cut" part of the "paste" action. I'd get it if they had different terms (Ctrl+c=select, Ctrl+v =duplicate, Ctrl+optV=move) but they're still called copy paste. Or the delete button on my keyboard being interpreted as page down. Or the enter key being used to rename a file. Or how every action just has to have an animation. It adds up to being just such a mess.
My trajectory was win 3.11, then macos 7 & 8, then windows 98.... Windows 7 > macOS again as a dev > Linux when I finally got to pick my own software and IT wasn't what paid the bills.
Windows was always broken so you had to learn to fix shit
Mac never did quite what you needed so you had to work around stuff and try harder
... Next/Mac got me very literate with Unix
... Linux is just kinda what I know.
But Unix based macos really is an excellent os. It's just a shame its so locked to their hardware.
I think this is pretty reasonable and shouldn't be a hot take. IMO, what macOS does better is to provide a simple UI that protects less experienced users well enough from themselves while keeping developer tools accessible and close enough to standard Unix stuff. It's easy to get into but not too hard to move past the basics once you need to. In Windows, I often feel like the opposite is true. The UI is a complicated mess of three different UIs that doesn't even protect users all that well, and developer tools are often separate products with their own learning curve that are aggressively Windows-specific.
In a previous relationship I gave my partner a small tour of the terminal application preinstalled in her Macbook. She had no idea it was even a thing in her computer. The list of commands used was ls, cd, and on a whim I was surprized to find Emacs was preinstalled as well. Her parents saw literally everything I did and still told her I hacked her computer. 🙄
There was a fairy large era of macs that were way more open to customization then windows. Probably still true because Microsoft has gotten a lot more aggressive about locking down their os and the average gamer has no clue how to install mods if it isn't from the Steam workshop.
The command line is not the end all and be all of tech literacy. It's one access point which doesn't get used that much outside of copy-pasting sudo commands from the internet.
Oops, looks like some Linux guys got triggered by my post. Poor babies.
I started on Mac (the Macintosh Plus), then went to Windows, and now Linux (for about two decades by now). 🤷♂️ Work as a software engineer... Nothing to see here, folks.
I started on Mac, went to Windows, then Linux, then ChromeOS, and now back to Linux and Mac for work. I work as a web dev and my contribution to my team is my extreme ADHD
I do, occasionally. I came from a team where I was the top contributor and am now on a team where I'm just trying to keep up. I'm learning a lot, but it's definitely been a blow to the ego.
Technically started on Apple II at school, at home we first got a 286 PC compatible running Windows 3.1 and some version of DOS, then in 5th/6th grade had a little exposure to Macs at school before switching to schools where everything was Windows. Didn’t touch a Mac again until college and it was another 8 years or so before I got comfortable with them. Now I barely touch Windows and am starting to get into Linux and have my eye on potentially trying some variants of BSD also.
I started with a Macintosh Plus when I was 2 years old. 😅 Didn't do much else than move the mouse around and played a clicking game where you clicked balls with numbers in sequence.
I remember when Wine was in alpha for twelve years (and then beta for three more). Was surprised to learn that it finally exited that stage, some time ago already.
Nice...I meant, I gave my 7yo (at the time) a computer we put Mint on it. He is 9 now, so by 19 I think we will see how it has changed his skill level vs the gen pop
My 8 and 9 year old kids use xubuntu on a 2013 macbook air. They use it for writing stories, making a lot of pixel art with Piko Pixel, and some code block style programming with Lego Spike. They are learning about multi-user systems, file management, etc. I'm keeping an eye out for a cheap pc that can run Minecraft (lots of those right now since people are just trashing old win 10 machines) because the older kid wants to learn how to make Minecraft mods.
my dad had a copy of solais as he works in IT and has for about 40 years. i was like "what is this solaris thing" and installed it and was like "Wow what the fuck did i just find". asked my dad about it and he said some of the servers they used ran solaris so that's why he had it as when his company used to have server farms he would flash them with solaris or win server. most of my interest in computers comes from my dad working in IT/Telecom and bringing home servers and watching his laptop with all the stuff he would do.
My dad knew enough to not get scammed at Bestbuy, but it was enough for me to figure it out from there. He did not keep up with tech as a hobby and is basically clueless at this point.
its odd cuz my dad is kinda the same way. he knows how to use things but he doesn't keep up sometimes and is a bit clueless. he did not major in comp sci in college (EE) so he wasn't a good programmer per-say and understood things 100%, but then a few weeks ago i catch him using reddit and chatGPT.
As always, this is a relatively tech-knowledgeable platform. 99% of people didn’t know shit about computers before or after the advent of the iphone, and even before that, building a PC wasn’t on the radar for most.
OTOH fixing issues with computers, PC users would know way more than a Apple user because PCs had way more issues. Not really a flex, but certainly relevant to the discussion.
PCs had way more options, as it was an open hardware system sort of (any company could make the hardware). If your apple broke, there was just nothing you could do too.
Sure. That was the pro and con for PCs. You could do whatever with them, but it meant that in doing whatever there was plenty of opportunity to break things or discover incompatibilities. Apple otoh was fuck you, you’re only doing what we let you do. I despised the walled garden, so I’ve been PC/Windows/Linux forever.
I was referring to the C64 which came with Basic V2. I did have a Commodore plus/4 as well to do some programming - it came with Basic 3.5 as far as I remember.
I've seen so many people on the "Only Millennials know how to use computers" and just kinda forgetting how many of this cohort didn't get their hands on a computer until that first generation of Apples and Dells ended up in resale shops or on eBay for deep discounts.
So many folks who see kids on touch screens and throw fits, because that's not how a "real computer" works, were throwing fits at their parents ten years ago for not understand how intuitive a touch screen is.
Feels like its all an excuse for people to get mad at one another, while occluding the simple fact that using a thing for a long time gives you more experience with the thing.
It's not really so much the form factor of the hardware. I think it's more to do with the increasing complexity of the apps and how they're designed to hide a lot of what goes on behind the scenes. Think about how the earliest versions of Android didn't even come with a basic file browser, for example.
It's the overall push to turn computers into single-use appliances, rather than general purpose devices.
Think about how the earliest versions of Android didn’t even come with a basic file browser, for example.
They didn't offer an official app, but the Google Store was flooded with 3rd party alternatives practically the day the OS was released.
Even then, knowing what an "App Store" is and how/why you'd use it is a skill more common among younger users. My mother, who happily goes on her laptop and installs all sorts of garbage, had no idea how to add an app to her phone. My younger coworkers are much more comfortable working through Citrix and other Cloud Services, because they don't expect a file system to be living under every app they use.
It’s the overall push to turn computers into single-use appliances, rather than general purpose devices.
I more felt that the phone was becoming a kind of mono-device or universal remote, with a lot of the IoT tech trying to turn it into an interface for every other kind of physical appliance. If anything, I feel like the phone does too much. As a result, its interface has to become more digital and generic and uniform in a way that makes using distinct applications and operations confusingly vague.
But growing up in an analog world has definitely tilted my expectations. Younger people seem perfectly fine with syncing their phones to anything with a receiver or RFID tag. And the particularly savvy ones seem interested in exploiting the fact that everything has a frequency. I've met more than a few kids who have fucked around with the Flipper and other wireless receiver gadgets.
Yes, people keep finding ways to put others down in order to feel superior. It's called being a bully. When everything was "blame and shame millenials for this", there was a section of us millenials that swore we'd break the cycle of generational blaming. Now it's all about blaming and shaming Gen-Z, because that shit gets clicks. Apparently being a bully never really goes out of style.
Absolutely. But I don't think it's crucial. If you test a bunch of 30 year olds on tech literacy and one started using a computer at 29, he will perform bad. But if you test a child at 12 who has had a pc for 2 years and a 30 year old person who has had a pc for 2 years, it becomes so irrelevant that just interest in the topic will determine the outcome. Though children do of course find everything interesting.
I think the reason why we have the perception about children learning fast is due to focus. They have unique abilities with their new little unstuffed heads, while a grown up will worry about not understand, thinking about something else entirely, not having time etc..
I mean younger brains do have more neuroplasticity and other factors, hence it's easier for children to learn more languages than adults. I assume this applies to more than just language.
it’s easier for children to learn more languages than adults
Kids are also assumed to operate at a child's language level. So an 8-year-old speaking both English and Spanish at the 1st grade level is impressive. But a 20-year-old speaking at a 1st grade level is considered remedial.
Even then, there's a lot to be said for experience. Computers and languages alike benefit from years of exposure. A large English vocabulary will help you pick up Spanish faster. And many years of experience on an Apple will clue you into tricks a naive Windows/Linux user would never consider.
I remember my dad trying to limit my screen time by putting a password lock on the screen saver. He was shocked to discover that an eight year old figured out how to evade it by... restarting the computer. But then he enabled password on restart and got cagey when typing it in, and that slowed my Hackerman attempts down significantly.
Kids tend to learn basic things faster. But they lack the breadth of experience to recall and apply strategies and patterns they've accrued over a lifetime. So much of what we consider "smart" versus "dumb" in problem solving is just "how many times have you already seen the answer to this question applied successfully?" Figuring something out for the first time is always harder than applying the heuristic you've been using half your life.
You raise really good points, but I'd want to add that abstract thought and the general ability to "think around corners" are at least as important (if not more so the higher you go) as experience insofar as problem solving and "smarts" go.
They do have more neuroplasticity. But we have to define what that means and where this phenomenon comes from. Most just assume that younger equals better. This is not the case. You can even keep the neuroplasticity you have had as a child. One of the defining characteristics of neuroplasticity is the ability to adapt to new views. Since children have no views yet, they have no conflicting views either, causing acceptance. This is not the case with adults. But you can instrumentalize such knowledge to essentially undo your conflicting nature to increase neuroplasticity immensely. There is a cutoff and you will have a drop in potential for neuroplasticity as you age, but this is not in your child years. If you're interested, I remember reading a study of life-long meditation on alzheimers. Maybe you can find them again. This is just one technique to increase neuroplasticity. I didn't want to mention this part, as it is against common knowledge. But common knowledge is rarely correct.
Source: I have had to deal with significant loss of neural function through mental illness and have read up a lot about this topic to better myself.
Ah, that's true and I misunderstood you then. Though it's hard for me to understand how that implies tech literacy in a total sense, since my grandpa has had a pc in and from the 20th century and while literate on tech given his generation, he is really not comparable to gen y-alpha. I would also wonder how this compares to devs, since most of them grow up relatively the same. PC in front of them, seeing code, monkey see monkey do, wam bam bap, software developer. I am in my 20s so I do not have knowledge about the first personal computers.
Agreed, I think it's the main thing. My parents at the very least were firm believers in using computers from an early age, so as far back as I could remember I had my own PowerMac G3. With the rad blue monitor and round mouse.
honestly i think part of the reason i’m a computer tinkerer now is my formative years were spent trying to run specific minecraft launchers, n64 emulators and other stuff on the family mac
Yeah the mac or pc part doesn't really matter if youre curious and like learning. You can do a lot with mac. However on the surface I would say its a little more simplified.
If they're implying that growing up with a Mac means worse problem solving skills because they don't go wrong as much clearly didn't experience MacOS prior to 10.
Das wirft natürlich eine sehr interessante wissenschaftliche Forschungsfrage auf, die ich mir erlaubt habe, in der wissenschaftlichen Literatur zu recherchieren:
"Does early exposure to different operating systems (macOS vs. Windows) correlate with differences in technological literacy and general problem-solving abilities among children and adolescents?"
The available research does not provide conclusive evidence that early exposure to different operating systems directly correlates with differences in technological literacy or problem-solving abilities among children and adolescents.
While studies reveal some interesting distinctions, the evidence is limited. Ronaldo Muyu et al., 2022 found Windows is more popular among university students (84.61% vs. 11.38% for macOS), suggesting potential usage differences. Shahid I. Ali et al., 2019 found no significant competency differences between Mac and Windows users in Excel skills. Cem Topcuoglu et al., 2024 noted that users’ perceptions of operating systems are often based on reputation rather than technical understanding.
Interestingly, Bijou Yang et al., 2003 found Mac users had significantly greater computer anxiety, which might indirectly impact technological literacy.
More targeted research is needed to definitively answer this question, particularly studies focusing on children and adolescents.
I think early exposure to several different OS's means you're at least not too poor, and lack of money does correlate a lot with illiteracy of all sorts.
I think you misunderstand: the question is not about exposure to different OSes, but about the correlation/causation of a given OS to later cognitive (and other) abilities. Please do apply adequate scientific rigor here!
The point I'm making is that I believe that people who have mac skills will need to also learn Windows skills just because it's so much more commonplace.
Just like lefties can be more empathetic on scale, because they have to face the disappointment of things not being designed for them (us, but I'm more mixed-handed than pure lefty).
It's not about the orientation of the hand, but the phenomena surrounding having to orient your hand / use a certain hand in a certain way.
Just like I don't believe that Mac as an OS is inherently changing the kids significantly.
Please do apply adequate scientific rigor here!
And to be fair, I don't really know anyone who's only ever used a mac for those exact reasons. We had a few kids in graphic design school be like "well I mostly use Mac as my personal computer is a mac", so they weren't as used to using Windows, since they hadn't done it since school.
Like if you compared the linguistic capacity of people in the US, I'm pretty sure that no matter what you choose as the primary language, those kids will still know English (as we're talking about USA here), and if they know English, then they're at least bilingual, which has a lot of cognitive benefits. But you wouldn't be saying that specifically speaking some specific other language makes the kids smarter.
Some languages might give certain advantages, like say some aboriginal language which doesn't have left/right but always uses cardinal directions. Due to them doing that it's insanely hard to confuse their inner sense of direction, even if you chuck them if a van and drive them around blindfolded.
So I'm not saying using Macs can't have some such small specific advantage, but I doubt it, and think it's just general adaptation skills, which do correlate with positive cognitive development.
Had to ssh into an orange pi I set up with emulation station to transfer some roms. Dude who I thought was tech literate was in awe and even described it as "hacking" a few days later recounting it with another friend.
Also was the hbic at a Dave and Buster's, had to update the six person halo game, which runs on Linux, people started gathering around with their oooo's and awe's, with one kid saying it was like the movies. People by and large are pretty fucking stupid ignorant.
I mean idk. I know it's simple once you know but not something I would expect the average person to be familiar with. To be fair if you're hacking you're probably are using ssh at some point. But also I wonder if some have a hard time accepting their own accomplishments. If we never allow ourselves to see our own advancement then we just see others who have not achieved as less. Give yourself some credit bro and by extension give these onlookers a break. What you're doing is kinda cool. Is that not what draws you to these types of activities in the first place?
I don't get the hype for Apple stuff. Custom built desktops or frankenlaptops look way cooler and it is a lot of fun to finally figure out what kind of gear you need.
It was always software vs Windows (which it goes without saying has always been trash), but I think nowadays it’s more of a hardware thing, Linux vs Mac OS, it’s not much of a much.
There are of course tons of features missing from the (laptop) hardware, touch screens, modems, any kind of interesting keyboards or folding etc. but the standard and reliability of the features it does have are of a pretty good class.
I used to have Asus hybrid tablet laptop and it was my favorite computer simply because it had both keyboard and touchscreen and it was super fun to point your finger at the screen instead of using the touchpad. the downside was that the connector port wore out relatively quickly and it started glitching and then the touchscreen broke down and that was all she wrote for that adventure.
Yeahhhh I love interesting form factors, give me more, I want them all! Yoga line has been really fun. Although there is something to be said for making it a bit more tankie tankish, for work, especially
At 7yo my family got our first home computer. I had no idea how to use it properly, so I was constantly bricking OS on it which lead my father to constantly call in his friend to fix our computer. I bet constant ass whooping made me quickly learn how to undo my own mess. At 10yo I could reinstall win98 though floppy with NC
Hey, this is how I learned the ins and outs of W95 / XP . Oops, bricked the main (and only) PC again, better fix that before parent finds out. Now where is that install CD?
So I started with a DOS machine that my dad had at work, then my school got a few Apple Macs in the library so I played Oregon Trail on the green screen, them the first computer we had at home that I was able to spend hours on was windows 3.1.
'98 myself. But I got a vivid memory of being at my aunt's when her computer guy was there and he hated windows describing it as for the lazy. I was really young att but remember playing some kinda dig dug type game that had cartoonish CPUs as the collection goal. I also remember figuring out how to launch it on a dos system.
Ibm had fallen off a cliff. I remember having one that had a dock for it's cd reader and such. Things was God damned bullet proof! I got an IdeaPad recently and aside from the metal shell, it's pretty much garbage. Like I don't really know what they're doing with their bios, but I just installed an m.2 drive with a Linux install and it takes almost the exact same time to boot as it did from the fucking platter hdd!
Man what a boring place Karlsruhe is when you compare it to its slightly more southern or slightly more frenchy neighbours, but what an absolute powerhouse of tech talent it breeds for the people who study there
Atari OS, which could only be used to access the floppy drive. Atari DOS could be booted from a floppy disk. I never used one of these machines, I skimmed the Wikipedia article on Atari 8-bit computers..
I started on a Mac from Apple's bad days. The school computers were Windows and it felt like all the other kids had Windows computers at home. I think feeling like I was at the disadvantage probably had an effect on me that led me to Linux. Also the second family computer ran Windows ME, so...
I started out with old Macs running System 7, and it was great. I had several good games installed from floppy disks and found some great shareware games online when we got our first modem and internet
C-64 -> DOS (at school) -> Unix (at uni) -> Every Windows from 3.1 to Win10 including some NT -> Linux/Win10
That pretty much dates me, with that huge stretch of time.
Messed around with Linux a few times on and off (Mandrake was first), never took the plunge until recently where it's now my primary. And it's not Arch.
We do not wish to exclude the population because it would preclude comparative analysis, but we wish to disclude them from this study in order to conclude the initial hypothesis.
286 in the house, ... like literally in the center of the house, but we did have like a gui program called ezmenu. Still had to launch a lot of programs/games from directories though
I started on Apple 2 then Macs. Then used my graduation money to build a PC with just released Windows 98, Monster Voodoo video card a few months later (off of eBay no less).
Gamed and worked through my design degree on windows before switching back to Mac when it went Intel, and because I was working in web development and l dealing with Linux servers all day, but also needed Photoshop and layer Sketch (a nice vector UI design tool) and later as I ditched Adobe in my own company, Pixelmator (a nice Photoshop replacement).
I know a little Vi, I know a bit about spinning up servers and Ruby on Rails, pretty comfortable with a terminal/cli, have a few RPis around the house, and I grew up on and still use Macs.
Mac as a kid, Windows for most of my life so far, Linux as a couple years now. I graduated a tech bootcamp with some good certs for DevOps/Cybersecurity, but they're expiring soon because the area I live has zero job openings and I completed the whole thing right as the AI "boom" was starting. Ugh
Any correlation would likely be related to socio-economic status ie class. Macs were always more expensive, that's going to skew wealthier, which has way more impact on developement and learning than which OS you used as a kid.
Its nice to know im not the only Linux kid. It felt so weird, most of my friends didn't even know what Android was. It sucks growing up tech savvy when most people call themselves nerds after discovering "air drop".
Also Apple IIe to start then Power Mac briefly, thanks to school. Later at home Windows 3.1 - Windows 7 I think, Back to OS X, Back to Win 10, Win 11, terror and enlightenment, now Linux.
Knowing how awesome a computer could be with the Power Mac made me demand more from a Windows machine, and then understand early on the disappointment with Windows that would last most of my life.
Well, it's really more that pain is part of the human experience. Suffering is our reaction to the pain. We don't have to suffer when we experience inevitable pain if we are enlightened.
In context: Using Windows 11 is pain. Continuing to use it by choice is suffering. Accepting Linux into your heart and treating the inevitable tweaks like no big deal is enlightenment.
My first machine was an Apple 2e. The first IBM machine I used was on DOS. I don't think I even saw Windows until Windows 95. We never had 3.1 or earlier.
First computer in my family's home was a shitty Macintosh Performa, pretty sure it was running 7.x. Probably the biggest impact that had was growing up a Marathon child, rather than a Doom one. Hexen on the N64, but otherwise didn't play Doom til later teen years.
But I also had extensive time on grand parent's Windows 98 machine. Monkey Island series, The Sims, Final Fantasy VII, bunch of other games.
I've had elementary and middle school classes on both Macs and Windows machines, but didn't gain any real typing skills until I used a Web TV device to access my first MSN chatrooms. Gained more typing speed in one day in chat than an entire quarter of typing classes.
First distro was Ubuntu 10.04. Had an interest in web design at the time, and had spent most of the years prior on a Windows XP desktop, then a Windows 7 one. Was more of an Unreal Tournament kid, again didn't try Quake 3 Arena until my twenties but I do prefer the latter now.
Every version of Windows after 7 feels weird and unfamiliar to me. I feel like I have to shower on the rare occasions when I do use a W10 telemetry machine. Have never had enough time to become familiar with any version of OS X, and iOS is so unfamiliar to me that I end up ragequitting those devices within minutes of trying to use them.
In my region, people who grew up with mac are more likely to finish higher class school than people who grew up using windows.
But not because they use mac but because they tend to have richer parents…
232 Comments
ininewcrow@lemmy.ca · 157 pts · 288d
The majority of people I know who have major computer problems solve them by buying another computer
python@lemmy.world · 93 pts · 288d
I'm not even that tech illiterate, but I almost did that... My laptop was being slow, and I still had like 4k€ in overtime hours that I could buy Hardware from at work (it's a great deal because I neither have to pay VAT on the hardware nor income taxes on the money from the overtime), so I was like, eh, might as well get a new laptop.
So then I read up on what laptop brands are out there, found out about Framework, and when I excitedly told my electrical engineer husband about it he was like "You knooow that you can easily replace parts in any laptop, right?"
Well, I didn't know that (just kinda assumed laptops were more like phones than they are like desktop PCs), so I ended up just ordering a new SSD and new RAM for my laptop. It's back to being butter smooth, but I have a hunch that cleaning the dust from the fans while I was in there was a very large factor in that haha
Dhs92@piefed.social · 45 pts · 288d
I used to work at a locally run computer store, and one of the biggest upgrades for most people was going from a mechanical hard drive to an SSD. Made a night and day difference.
python@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 288d
Ooh, totally! I did have an SSD in there before, but it was only 256GB, so I had to store most files on the HDD and be extremely selective about what to install to C:. Going up to 8TB felt very liberating, I no longer have to fear that an npm install might crash my whole machine! (at least not due to space constraints, npm will figure out how to crash it for other reasons)
SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 287d
If the crashing stopped by replacing the SSD probably the SSD is end-of-life. SSDs basically wear down with each write action and when they reach their terabytes written limit they can start crashing the system during read and write actions. Also the smaller the SSD the lower the terabytes written limit is. 256GB drives are on the low end, so not surprising that you reached that limit.
python@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 287d
That might be the case too! I do believe it was more of a skill issue in my case because I was booting Linux Mint from a 40GB partition (couldn't free any more space than that on the old SSD) and enabled too many system backups (they recommended 2 daily and 2 on boot, and I just followed the recommendation without thinking about the space implications). Those alone put me at around 35-38GB of used space, and an npm install is usually around 1 GB, but log and temp files can sometimes balloon up when things go wrong. So it wasn't really a crash per say, just Mint's "shut down the system when you run out of storage space" protection triggering haha
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 287d
I've been pretty much upgrading my own desktop PC regularly since the 90s (though I did buy a brand new one 6 years ago).
In my experience the upgrade that's more likelly to improve it the cheapest is RAM, then a graphics card if you're a gamer.
Upgrading the CPU has always been something that happens less often and also it doesn't help that the CPU can only be upgrade up to a point without having to replace the motherboard (which then forces replacing the RAM and possibly even the PC box).
However there were two transition periods were the best upgrade by far was something else: the first was back in the day when hardware 3D accelerator boards were invented (Quake with a 3dfx was night and day compared to software rendering) and the other one was the transition for HDD to SSD, both being massive jumps in performance.
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 17 pts · 288d
I see you used to have an HDD in there. That alone would've made it painfully slow in Windows especially, but even with Linux.
Now it should stay fast for longer.
Jesus_666@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 288d
I mean, asterisk. Most laptops let you swap the storage and RAM and many let you swap the battery. Beyond that it usually gets difficult.
Framework let you swap everything, which is a major difference. But of course you pay for that privilege; modular design has its costs.
Still, good on you for getting a cheap upgrade. No need to throw away a perfectly good laptop if you can make it work fast again with a new SSD.
kuberoot@discuss.tchncs.de · 5 pts · 287d
I think there's still a pretty big asterisk on that, because laptop parts are generally not built to be swappable... So I don't think you can swap the CPU without the rest of the mainboard, and some parts like the CPU cooler are probably tied to the specific variant of mainboard and need to be swapped together if you want to switch CPUs.
They do let you swap out parts that are reasonably swappable, so it's pretty much a guarantee you'll be able to upgrade storage and memory, and even where you can't swap to different parts they make sure you can replace broken parts more granularly, so it still seems like a good deal.
Jesus_666@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 287d
The logic board has the CPU built in, that's true. However, the Framework 16 has a swappable GPU and all models make the ports independent of the logic board through a USB-C-based expansion module system. So that's even a few parts other manufacturer might consider unreasonable.
(Also, to be fair, I forgot one other thing most laptops let you swap: The WiFi/BT card, if only because it's cheaper to have that on a swappable module.)
Stez827@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 287d
Wow that's an amazing amount of dust. I think that's the most I have seen in a computer and my only source of laptop used to be old things from recycling centers
python@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 287d
Could be explained by the fact that my favorite position to program is on my bed, like a teenage girl from a mediocre 2000's movie writing in her diary. The laptop fans get a taste of all that good good bed sheet fiber.
cor315@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 287d
My back hurts thinking about this.
Rinn@awful.systems · 4 pts · 287d
I use mine on a sofa (for gaming, even!), but I get around the issue a bit by having a pad under the laptop. It's literally just a hard plastic board with a beanbag attached underneath, I think I got it from IKEA. It isolates the laptop a bit from dust and improves airflow + lets it heat up without burning my knees + the one I have is just large enough that I can also use my wireless mouse on it when I push my laptop to the left.
Stez827@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 287d
Ah I see you keep your laptop well fed. I try to keep mine anorexic lol
jlow@discuss.tchncs.de · -1 pts · 287d
If you're a half-decent person you doged a bullet there:
https://www.theregister.com/2025/10/14/framework_linux_controversy/
salacious_coaster@infosec.pub · 28 pts · 288d
I've told those kind of people about how easily I could format/reinstall the OS, and they looked at me like some kind of lunatic witch doctor.
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 15 pts · 288d
That's why I will nab computers out of the trash if I see 'em. Most of them still have perfectly functional modern parts. A lot of the time, the only thing that even needs replacing is the PSU.
Broadfern@lemmy.world · 116 pts · 288d
I think the issue is not having a desktop-type computer at all and having a tablet/phone that’s so locked down the kid isn’t given the opportunity to explore or troubleshoot.
Tinkering is how you learn to solve problems, which requires having something tinker-able without having to go down a hacky rabbithole.
Eq0@literature.cafe · 32 pts · 288d
I know a bit about teaching about computers/programming to kids in the first years of high school. Their understanding of anything computer is abysmal. They have grown up with smartphones and maybe tablet, never were able to tinker with anything. Even just what internet is was confusing to them. It had to be reframed as “when can you watch youtube” for it to make sense…
Tower@lemmy.zip · 19 pts · 287d
Anytime this topic comes up, I reshare this blog post. With things being "that bad" over a decade ago, I can't imagine how much worse it's gotten.
http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/
Eq0@literature.cafe · 14 pts · 287d
Great read, exactly what I experienced. On the other hand, we also really want to think about what knowledge is really important. Is knowing the difference between Internet and World Wide Web necessary? Or is programming in a random language? Knowledge is power, but there is just so much you can learn. Starting knowing that you don’t know and it’s not magic is, to me, already a great step, because from there you can learn. Expecting everything to be prepackaged is instead a very passive approach, and that should be discouraged.
Dreaming_Novaling@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 287d
Yeah, that "what to absolutely learn" line needs to be established. Basic knowledge of fixing and troubleshooting absolutely should be taught, while scripting and programming is probably not a high priority for many people. Maybe financial/business interested students could learn some scripting, but art and literature students won't really care.
I'm Gen Z, and I cringe at both my classmates and alpha-cusp cousins, my millennial aunts, my xillenial dad, and my boomer grandparents, one of which taught college classes on how to use computers back in the 80s, so idk what happened there...
In the case of my classmates, I can understand that if you're too poor to have a home computer with Windows or Mac, then you won't have many opportunities for computer literacy, cause we used heavily locked-down Chromebooks from 5-12th grade, and while my college library has Windows desktops, I'm not sure if the rental laptops are Windows or Chrome. But grown adults had computer lab, so what happened there?
But still, I've seen mind numbing shit like using the caps key instead of shift when typing (ON PURPOSE, by the way), not using any kind of ad block, not knowing where shit is in phone settings, hell, asking for chargers is "iPhone or Android charger" or "round or flat charger" instead of USB C or lightning.
Eq0@literature.cafe · 2 pts · 287d
Troubleshooting is such a big one! Like, you should be able to distinguish between a “I can fix it” issue, a “somebody can fix it” issue and a “my computer burned to the ground” situation… and act accordingly. I’m also okay with the first option being very limited! But please Google your problem until you vaguely understand what’s wrong.
Valmond@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 287d
Like kids back in the 1980s ☺️ many couldn't even read a floppy on the C64!
I wonder if they, I mean today's kids, learn other things we miss out on.
Eq0@literature.cafe · 16 pts · 287d
From the educators perspective, they get a lot more brain rot. They dropped in in-person socialization, long and medium term concentration and literacy of any type. I haven’t heard any positives yet… but I also fear that with every year, I am getting closer to the trope of “back in my days”-shake walking cane. So, hopefully someone comes to tell me I’m missing something
NABDad@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 287d
Witnessed a radiology resident typing her password into a computer and for each uppercase letter she would press shift-lock, type the letter, then press shift-lock again.
I couldn't figure it out until my mom pointed out she probably only ever used a phone or tablet.
Which is crazy, because I can't imagine getting through high school, college, and medical school without ever working on a desktop computer.
Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 8 pts · 287d
True. That being said, I'm pretty sure that a Mac is roughly at the middle point between that and a Windows PC, with Linux users being way more tech savvy still.
In fact, so much exploration and troubleshooting being REQUIRED to make most if not all Linux distros do what you want is (along with game compatibility/availability) the main reason for many people who are sick of Windows to be hesitant to make the switch, myself included.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 5 pts · 287d
You don't really need to tinker too much tbf, install distros like Bazzite and you have all done pratically
Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 287d
I've been told that exact thing dozens of times with different "just install it and it does everything for you" distro recommendations, and it hasn't been the case with any of the ones I've tried.
I'm not saying that people are lying to me or anything like that, I just think that people underestimate how used they are to using Linux and thus overestimate how easy it is for people who aren't.
Right now, I have Zorin OS on my laptop since that's supposed to be THE easiest one for refugees from Windows to use, and while I'm liking it so far, I'm nowhere near being ready for it to replace Windows on my desktop yet.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 4 pts · 287d
I don't even use Linux often, since my institution require me to run windows i use linux rarely.
Zorin OS has just a better ""marketing"" than other distros, the only plus it has is having a familiar GUI and a big community.
some features of bazzite (you can check everthing in bazzite.gg)
It's more focused in gaming but it work well even in non-gaming situations
Also, it should be harder to break but i think you need to install apps from flatpak (a software store) instead of the package manager tho, i don't remember well.
I don't say it's the easiest one, i just say it's the one i suggest, do what you want, try what you want.
Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 287d
Those are exceptionally good plusses, though.
In fact, it's the number one and number two requirements for easing the passage between systems, which is why I chose Zorin.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 1 pts · 287d
Thought, those plus are more common than what you think (usually because making a good looking GUI is easy on Linux and because most of the distros are derivates of Debian, Arch, Fedora or some other famous distro) so yeah, i wouldn't say it's the best one for begginer, thought i admit it's polished and i would probably use it
Passerby6497@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
Seconding a rec for Bazzite, but please don't make people think that distros this are a silver bullet. I've been running Bazzite for months, and while my experience is MOSTLY issue free, I did have to spend quite a while trying to figure out why certain flatpack apps refused to run sometimes on boot. Still don't know what I did to fix my issue, and it's working reliably, so I'm not going to touch it.....
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 2 pts · 287d
It's not issue-less but it's pretty much a "work out-of-the box" expirience , you will have 2/3 problems like in EVERY other OSes, you can't say that you didn't had some problems on Windows or macOS
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 287d
Exactly.
A background of tinkering with stuff without fear of the consequences of breaking it (which is a common mindset mainly amongst kids and teens) is the difference between a tool-maker and a tool-user, IMHO, and thinkering is far more natural to start doing and to do much further with an open system than with a closed system.
einfach_orangensaft@sh.itjust.works · 52 pts · 288d
the iphone was the beginning of the downfall
striping menue options down for usability and "natural gestures" like swiping caused a whole generation to be able to partake in internet discourse without having a basic understanding of how they got there
tetris11@feddit.uk · 51 pts · 287d
*Reads comments in thread*
I started with a pair of matchsticks and a trenchcoat that I got at Galipoli in WW1, using the Phosphorus I found in the Bosphorus to craft makeshift TI calculator based on specs I got via Fax from a Samurai. I ran slackware on my slacks until we defeated the Ottomans, but they unleashed their puppy linuxes on us, and we stood no chance.
ikidd@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
Meanwhile...
tetris11@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 286d
At the Hall of Justice, we join our heroes enjoying a celebratory game of Tuxkart on their PopOS devices after their latest defeat of Lex Luthor's DOS army.
"That was a great buffer underflow, Batman" said Superman, piping his Krypto into a GPG wallet.
"Thank you, Superman. Evil shall think twice before compiling on a non GCC system without warnings enabled!"
ikidd@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
It's all that musl he has.
Cryan24@lemmy.world · 42 pts · 287d
FridaySteve@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 287d
Vic-20 here. What a time to be alive.
Botzo@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 287d
TRS-80 then IBM PCjr here. Both hand-me-downs though.
Mom wouldn't let me on the 386 until I could touch-type and write a program in BASIC. She was a Cobol and IBM RPG programmer.
Cryan24@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 287d
Kalothar@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 287d
I started on an Antikythera mechanism, you kids that started on a modern machine were coddled.
h0rnman@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 8 pts · 287d
C64 gang, represent!
Seriously though, I feel like that generation of machines was the last time you could look at hardware and say "yeah, I understand literally everything about how this works" and that knowledge has made even some of my (tech sector) coworkers think I'm a wizard
MyNameIsIgglePiggle@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 287d
I had a GUI - windows 3.11
But it was so slow. So I made my own gui/menu system that ran in dos. I was between 9-11 I reckon.
Not sure where that lands me on the spectrum of coddledness
Soapbox@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 287d
I can technically claim I started with a hand me down C64 from my grandmother in the early 90s. But I was like 6 years old, and I didn't really get into computers until we got a Windows 95 machine a couple of years later. Though by 99-2000 I was regularly playing around with the C64 for the novelty of what felt like ancient tech.
I remember using dialup internet on windows 98 in the late 90s to look up how to use the C64.
Dozzi92@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
Yeah, it was just MSDOS. I saw "Abort, retry, fail" so many times, and I didn't even know what it meant because I was four and I just wanted to play Family Feud with my brother.
joelfromaus@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 286d
I know you’re joking but this is how a lot replies here feel. Kids don’t even know how to program using punch cards anymore smh.
40 years from now the newest generation will be saying “Grandpa doesn’t even know know what a Cyber Tibulator Strip is let alone how to use it. If you need him he’s out back yelling at clouds.”
Don’t get me wrong here, tech literacy is low but when has it not been?
fibojoly@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 287d
Are you joking? C64 was the bomb back in the day! My Atari and Amiga mates were enjoying colors and music and games while I had sat there on my colourless, mute PC. All I had was Flight Simulator 2 in black and white. And DrBrush for drawing in Hercules "graphics" mode.
andros_rex@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 287d
Apple ][e was my first. We also had an XP machine for internet (Neopets) but I didn’t have to fight for turns on the Apple.
GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 287d
I had an Apple ][e I could use at school. It was preferable to the ][c for the same reason.
wowwoweowza@lemmy.world · 42 pts · 287d
Good grief! The word is excluded. Holy shit.
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 286d
Shit was making my eye twitch.
SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
probably a Windows user
impudentmortal@lemmy.world · 42 pts · 288d
If you're using Lemmy there's a good chance you'll be excluded from the study. Some of the largest Lemmy communities are Linux related.
slaacaa@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 287d
Upvoted from my iPhone
Meron35@lemmy.world · 39 pts · 287d
Hot take: macOS, being Unix like, fosters more tech literacy than Windows.
It's much better now with windows terminal and winget, but a decade or so ago even basic things like installing python and adding it to PATH were infinitely easier on Unix-like environments.
For those privileged to have programming classes, the first 2-3 sessions were the teachers going round doing tech support just to install python on shitty locked down Windows laptops.
Windows being terrible makes you learn a lot of stuff, but so much of it is untransferrable.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 37 pts · 287d
I started with DOS. then windows. I didn't use Linux until I was in my 20s, and not heavily use it until my 30s.
I just started using a Mac for work because it's "Unix like".
Mac's are fucked up man. I don't know how anyone gets shit done on them. the UX is developed like it's for stroke victims with permanent brain damage.
I would rather use W11 than a Mac and I fucking loathe Microsoft and their horrible AI bullshit.
squaresinger@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 287d
This. So freaking much this.
Mac is unix in the same way that Android is unix or my car's infotainment system is Unix.
Yes, there's unix under the hood, but there's such a bunch of garbage on top that the unixity really doesn't help much at all.
balance8873@lemmy.myserv.one · 3 pts · 287d
The 1000 little interface stupidities is what gets me on Mac, like making "cut" part of the "paste" action. I'd get it if they had different terms (Ctrl+c=select, Ctrl+v =duplicate, Ctrl+optV=move) but they're still called copy paste. Or the delete button on my keyboard being interpreted as page down. Or the enter key being used to rename a file. Or how every action just has to have an animation. It adds up to being just such a mess.
CanadianCarl@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 286d
I am still using windows 10.
MyNameIsIgglePiggle@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 287d
My trajectory was win 3.11, then macos 7 & 8, then windows 98.... Windows 7 > macOS again as a dev > Linux when I finally got to pick my own software and IT wasn't what paid the bills.
Windows was always broken so you had to learn to fix shit
Mac never did quite what you needed so you had to work around stuff and try harder
... Next/Mac got me very literate with Unix
... Linux is just kinda what I know.
But Unix based macos really is an excellent os. It's just a shame its so locked to their hardware.
Taleya@aussie.zone · 8 pts · 287d
Jokes on you i started on system 7
MelodiousFunk@slrpnk.net · 8 pts · 287d
There are dozens of us!
Sabata11792@ani.social · 3 pts · 287d
I learned how to fix but never how a PC ran on windows. You just can't really dig into the innards and fixing it is 9/10 a reinstall.
rustydrd@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 287d
I think this is pretty reasonable and shouldn't be a hot take. IMO, what macOS does better is to provide a simple UI that protects less experienced users well enough from themselves while keeping developer tools accessible and close enough to standard Unix stuff. It's easy to get into but not too hard to move past the basics once you need to. In Windows, I often feel like the opposite is true. The UI is a complicated mess of three different UIs that doesn't even protect users all that well, and developer tools are often separate products with their own learning curve that are aggressively Windows-specific.
dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 287d
A mac is the only non linux machine I'll willingly use if I didn't have the choice of linux
AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net · 2 pts · 287d
In a previous relationship I gave my partner a small tour of the terminal application preinstalled in her Macbook. She had no idea it was even a thing in her computer. The list of commands used was ls, cd, and on a whim I was surprized to find Emacs was preinstalled as well. Her parents saw literally everything I did and still told her I hacked her computer. 🙄
Duamerthrax@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
There was a fairy large era of macs that were way more open to customization then windows. Probably still true because Microsoft has gotten a lot more aggressive about locking down their os and the average gamer has no clue how to install mods if it isn't from the Steam workshop.
TASchwitters@lemmings.world · 1 pts · 287d
Tech “literacy” is one thing. Let’s also compare productivity between users.
balance8873@lemmy.myserv.one · -8 pts · 287d
The command line is not the end all and be all of tech literacy. It's one access point which doesn't get used that much outside of copy-pasting sudo commands from the internet.
Oops, looks like some Linux guys got triggered by my post. Poor babies.
victorz@lemmy.world · 37 pts · 288d
I started on Mac (the Macintosh Plus), then went to Windows, and now Linux (for about two decades by now). 🤷♂️ Work as a software engineer... Nothing to see here, folks.
fartographer@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 288d
I started on Mac, went to Windows, then Linux, then ChromeOS, and now back to Linux and Mac for work. I work as a web dev and my contribution to my team is my extreme ADHD
toynbee@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 288d
You guys are contributing to your team?
victorz@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
Try it sometime! It really hits them endorphins.
toynbee@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
I do, occasionally. I came from a team where I was the top contributor and am now on a team where I'm just trying to keep up. I'm learning a lot, but it's definitely been a blow to the ego.
victorz@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
Hang in there! I believe in you!
toynbee@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 287d
Very kind.
jqubed@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 288d
Technically started on Apple II at school, at home we first got a 286 PC compatible running Windows 3.1 and some version of DOS, then in 5th/6th grade had a little exposure to Macs at school before switching to schools where everything was Windows. Didn’t touch a Mac again until college and it was another 8 years or so before I got comfortable with them. Now I barely touch Windows and am starting to get into Linux and have my eye on potentially trying some variants of BSD also.
victorz@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
I started with a Macintosh Plus when I was 2 years old. 😅 Didn't do much else than move the mouse around and played a clicking game where you clicked balls with numbers in sequence.
hedge_lord@lemmy.world · 25 pts · 287d
I think that being forced to learn about WINE at a young age may have been beneficial actually (if extremely unpleasant)
Manmoth@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 287d
So unpleasant.
hereiamagain@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 286d
There are dozens of us
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
I remember when Wine was in alpha for twelve years (and then beta for three more). Was surprised to learn that it finally exited that stage, some time ago already.
bdonvr@thelemmy.club · 25 pts · 288d
I'd take macOS over Windows anyday if those were my only choices. It's UNIX so a ton of Linux knowledge is transferrable.
(At least starting in 1999, prior Mac OSes weren't Unix based but still IMO pretty neat)
Dyskolos@lemmy.zip · 22 pts · 287d
floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 287d
Eh, windows definitely throws more shit to fix at you. Macs either work or need to be taken to an apple store
Dyskolos@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 287d
explodicle@sh.itjust.works · 21 pts · 287d
Ummm how do kids turn out if you install Linux Mint on a cheap laptop and give it to them to screw around with? Asking for a friend.
ShaggySnacks@lemmy.myserv.one · 17 pts · 287d
It leads the kid to Arch. I hope you prepared to always hear "I use Arch, btw."
absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz · 10 pts · 287d
I'll let you know in 10 years.
Hupf@feddit.org · 5 pts · 287d
https://xkcd.com/583/
absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz · 4 pts · 287d
Nice...I meant, I gave my 7yo (at the time) a computer we put Mint on it. He is 9 now, so by 19 I think we will see how it has changed his skill level vs the gen pop
Devjavu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 287d
BAAAABE, I WANT A KID.
fibojoly@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 287d
My cousin became an IT tech. I set her up with Ubuntu on a cheap desktop when she was about 12.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 286d
One of us.
AldinTheMage@ttrpg.network · 3 pts · 287d
My 8 and 9 year old kids use xubuntu on a 2013 macbook air. They use it for writing stories, making a lot of pixel art with Piko Pixel, and some code block style programming with Lego Spike. They are learning about multi-user systems, file management, etc. I'm keeping an eye out for a cheap pc that can run Minecraft (lots of those right now since people are just trashing old win 10 machines) because the older kid wants to learn how to make Minecraft mods.
1985MustangCobra@lemmy.ca · 21 pts · 287d
Yeah I might be autistic.
Sabata11792@ani.social · 15 pts · 287d
I'm cooked.
1985MustangCobra@lemmy.ca · 7 pts · 287d
my dad had a copy of solais as he works in IT and has for about 40 years. i was like "what is this solaris thing" and installed it and was like "Wow what the fuck did i just find". asked my dad about it and he said some of the servers they used ran solaris so that's why he had it as when his company used to have server farms he would flash them with solaris or win server. most of my interest in computers comes from my dad working in IT/Telecom and bringing home servers and watching his laptop with all the stuff he would do.
Sabata11792@ani.social · 3 pts · 287d
My dad knew enough to not get scammed at Bestbuy, but it was enough for me to figure it out from there. He did not keep up with tech as a hobby and is basically clueless at this point.
1985MustangCobra@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 287d
its odd cuz my dad is kinda the same way. he knows how to use things but he doesn't keep up sometimes and is a bit clueless. he did not major in comp sci in college (EE) so he wasn't a good programmer per-say and understood things 100%, but then a few weeks ago i catch him using reddit and chatGPT.
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world · 21 pts · 287d
As always, this is a relatively tech-knowledgeable platform. 99% of people didn’t know shit about computers before or after the advent of the iphone, and even before that, building a PC wasn’t on the radar for most.
OTOH fixing issues with computers, PC users would know way more than a Apple user because PCs had way more issues. Not really a flex, but certainly relevant to the discussion.
Valmond@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 287d
PCs had way more options, as it was an open hardware system sort of (any company could make the hardware). If your apple broke, there was just nothing you could do too.
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 287d
Sure. That was the pro and con for PCs. You could do whatever with them, but it meant that in doing whatever there was plenty of opportunity to break things or discover incompatibilities. Apple otoh was fuck you, you’re only doing what we let you do. I despised the walled garden, so I’ve been PC/Windows/Linux forever.
Valmond@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 287d
Exactly, and I can't stand the walled garden either ☺️👍🏻
Lfrith@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 287d
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 1 pts · 287d
Fenrisulfir@lemmy.ca · 19 pts · 287d
What about people who started on DOS?
floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 11 pts · 287d
They are either database administrators or completely oblivious to modern technology
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 286d
Lies and slander.
I am a system administrator and a network administrator. I abhor database management tyvm.
floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 286d
Heh, me too. DBAs are to sysadmins what sysadmins are to devs
infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net · 8 pts · 287d
Or AmigaOS?
LillaApan@feddit.org · 3 pts · 287d
Or Basic 2.0?
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 286d
There was a 2.0?
TIL.
LillaApan@feddit.org · 1 pts · 286d
I was referring to the C64 which came with Basic V2. I did have a Commodore plus/4 as well to do some programming - it came with Basic 3.5 as far as I remember.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 286d
Oooh. That version. I forgot they called that basic 2.0
Alright.
village604@adultswim.fan · 18 pts · 287d
I think that when you started matters a lot.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 287d
I've seen so many people on the "Only Millennials know how to use computers" and just kinda forgetting how many of this cohort didn't get their hands on a computer until that first generation of Apples and Dells ended up in resale shops or on eBay for deep discounts.
So many folks who see kids on touch screens and throw fits, because that's not how a "real computer" works, were throwing fits at their parents ten years ago for not understand how intuitive a touch screen is.
Feels like its all an excuse for people to get mad at one another, while occluding the simple fact that using a thing for a long time gives you more experience with the thing.
AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net · 2 pts · 287d
It's not really so much the form factor of the hardware. I think it's more to do with the increasing complexity of the apps and how they're designed to hide a lot of what goes on behind the scenes. Think about how the earliest versions of Android didn't even come with a basic file browser, for example.
It's the overall push to turn computers into single-use appliances, rather than general purpose devices.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 287d
They didn't offer an official app, but the Google Store was flooded with 3rd party alternatives practically the day the OS was released.
Even then, knowing what an "App Store" is and how/why you'd use it is a skill more common among younger users. My mother, who happily goes on her laptop and installs all sorts of garbage, had no idea how to add an app to her phone. My younger coworkers are much more comfortable working through Citrix and other Cloud Services, because they don't expect a file system to be living under every app they use.
I more felt that the phone was becoming a kind of mono-device or universal remote, with a lot of the IoT tech trying to turn it into an interface for every other kind of physical appliance. If anything, I feel like the phone does too much. As a result, its interface has to become more digital and generic and uniform in a way that makes using distinct applications and operations confusingly vague.
But growing up in an analog world has definitely tilted my expectations. Younger people seem perfectly fine with syncing their phones to anything with a receiver or RFID tag. And the particularly savvy ones seem interested in exploiting the fact that everything has a frequency. I've met more than a few kids who have fucked around with the Flipper and other wireless receiver gadgets.
Soleos@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 287d
Yes, people keep finding ways to put others down in order to feel superior. It's called being a bully. When everything was "blame and shame millenials for this", there was a section of us millenials that swore we'd break the cycle of generational blaming. Now it's all about blaming and shaming Gen-Z, because that shit gets clicks. Apparently being a bully never really goes out of style.
Devjavu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 6 pts · 287d
Absolutely. But I don't think it's crucial. If you test a bunch of 30 year olds on tech literacy and one started using a computer at 29, he will perform bad. But if you test a child at 12 who has had a pc for 2 years and a 30 year old person who has had a pc for 2 years, it becomes so irrelevant that just interest in the topic will determine the outcome. Though children do of course find everything interesting.
I think the reason why we have the perception about children learning fast is due to focus. They have unique abilities with their new little unstuffed heads, while a grown up will worry about not understand, thinking about something else entirely, not having time etc..
edible_funk@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 287d
I mean younger brains do have more neuroplasticity and other factors, hence it's easier for children to learn more languages than adults. I assume this applies to more than just language.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 287d
Kids are also assumed to operate at a child's language level. So an 8-year-old speaking both English and Spanish at the 1st grade level is impressive. But a 20-year-old speaking at a 1st grade level is considered remedial.
Even then, there's a lot to be said for experience. Computers and languages alike benefit from years of exposure. A large English vocabulary will help you pick up Spanish faster. And many years of experience on an Apple will clue you into tricks a naive Windows/Linux user would never consider.
I remember my dad trying to limit my screen time by putting a password lock on the screen saver. He was shocked to discover that an eight year old figured out how to evade it by... restarting the computer. But then he enabled password on restart and got cagey when typing it in, and that slowed my Hackerman attempts down significantly.
Kids tend to learn basic things faster. But they lack the breadth of experience to recall and apply strategies and patterns they've accrued over a lifetime. So much of what we consider "smart" versus "dumb" in problem solving is just "how many times have you already seen the answer to this question applied successfully?" Figuring something out for the first time is always harder than applying the heuristic you've been using half your life.
edible_funk@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
You raise really good points, but I'd want to add that abstract thought and the general ability to "think around corners" are at least as important (if not more so the higher you go) as experience insofar as problem solving and "smarts" go.
Devjavu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 287d
They do have more neuroplasticity. But we have to define what that means and where this phenomenon comes from. Most just assume that younger equals better. This is not the case. You can even keep the neuroplasticity you have had as a child. One of the defining characteristics of neuroplasticity is the ability to adapt to new views. Since children have no views yet, they have no conflicting views either, causing acceptance. This is not the case with adults. But you can instrumentalize such knowledge to essentially undo your conflicting nature to increase neuroplasticity immensely. There is a cutoff and you will have a drop in potential for neuroplasticity as you age, but this is not in your child years. If you're interested, I remember reading a study of life-long meditation on alzheimers. Maybe you can find them again. This is just one technique to increase neuroplasticity. I didn't want to mention this part, as it is against common knowledge. But common knowledge is rarely correct.
Source: I have had to deal with significant loss of neural function through mental illness and have read up a lot about this topic to better myself.
village604@adultswim.fan · 4 pts · 287d
I meant more that it makes a difference if your first computer was a Macintosh SE vs a MacBook Air.
Spaceballstheusername@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 287d
Yeah my thought exactly I was raised on Macintosh and it's completely different than the current apple product experience.
Devjavu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 287d
Ah, that's true and I misunderstood you then. Though it's hard for me to understand how that implies tech literacy in a total sense, since my grandpa has had a pc in and from the 20th century and while literate on tech given his generation, he is really not comparable to gen y-alpha. I would also wonder how this compares to devs, since most of them grow up relatively the same. PC in front of them, seeing code, monkey see monkey do, wam bam bap, software developer. I am in my 20s so I do not have knowledge about the first personal computers.
nek0d3r@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 287d
Agreed, I think it's the main thing. My parents at the very least were firm believers in using computers from an early age, so as far back as I could remember I had my own PowerMac G3. With the rad blue monitor and round mouse.
carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 18 pts · 287d
honestly i think part of the reason i’m a computer tinkerer now is my formative years were spent trying to run specific minecraft launchers, n64 emulators and other stuff on the family mac
bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 287d
Yeah the mac or pc part doesn't really matter if youre curious and like learning. You can do a lot with mac. However on the surface I would say its a little more simplified.
Denjin@feddit.uk · 17 pts · 288d
If they're implying that growing up with a Mac means worse problem solving skills because they don't go wrong as much clearly didn't experience MacOS prior to 10.
bremen15@feddit.org · 16 pts · 287d
Das wirft natürlich eine sehr interessante wissenschaftliche Forschungsfrage auf, die ich mir erlaubt habe, in der wissenschaftlichen Literatur zu recherchieren:
"Does early exposure to different operating systems (macOS vs. Windows) correlate with differences in technological literacy and general problem-solving abilities among children and adolescents?"
The available research does not provide conclusive evidence that early exposure to different operating systems directly correlates with differences in technological literacy or problem-solving abilities among children and adolescents.
While studies reveal some interesting distinctions, the evidence is limited. Ronaldo Muyu et al., 2022 found Windows is more popular among university students (84.61% vs. 11.38% for macOS), suggesting potential usage differences. Shahid I. Ali et al., 2019 found no significant competency differences between Mac and Windows users in Excel skills. Cem Topcuoglu et al., 2024 noted that users’ perceptions of operating systems are often based on reputation rather than technical understanding.
Interestingly, Bijou Yang et al., 2003 found Mac users had significantly greater computer anxiety, which might indirectly impact technological literacy.
More targeted research is needed to definitively answer this question, particularly studies focusing on children and adolescents.
Dasus@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 287d
I think early exposure to several different OS's means you're at least not too poor, and lack of money does correlate a lot with illiteracy of all sorts.
bremen15@feddit.org · 3 pts · 286d
I think you misunderstand: the question is not about exposure to different OSes, but about the correlation/causation of a given OS to later cognitive (and other) abilities. Please do apply adequate scientific rigor here!
Dasus@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
The point I'm making is that I believe that people who have mac skills will need to also learn Windows skills just because it's so much more commonplace.
Just like lefties can be more empathetic on scale, because they have to face the disappointment of things not being designed for them (us, but I'm more mixed-handed than pure lefty).
It's not about the orientation of the hand, but the phenomena surrounding having to orient your hand / use a certain hand in a certain way.
Just like I don't believe that Mac as an OS is inherently changing the kids significantly.
And to be fair, I don't really know anyone who's only ever used a mac for those exact reasons. We had a few kids in graphic design school be like "well I mostly use Mac as my personal computer is a mac", so they weren't as used to using Windows, since they hadn't done it since school.
Like if you compared the linguistic capacity of people in the US, I'm pretty sure that no matter what you choose as the primary language, those kids will still know English (as we're talking about USA here), and if they know English, then they're at least bilingual, which has a lot of cognitive benefits. But you wouldn't be saying that specifically speaking some specific other language makes the kids smarter.
Some languages might give certain advantages, like say some aboriginal language which doesn't have left/right but always uses cardinal directions. Due to them doing that it's insanely hard to confuse their inner sense of direction, even if you chuck them if a van and drive them around blindfolded.
So I'm not saying using Macs can't have some such small specific advantage, but I doubt it, and think it's just general adaptation skills, which do correlate with positive cognitive development.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 286d
I did once have a Mac user describe the Bash terminal as "it looks like breaking things."
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 4 pts · 286d
Had to ssh into an orange pi I set up with emulation station to transfer some roms. Dude who I thought was tech literate was in awe and even described it as "hacking" a few days later recounting it with another friend.
Also was the hbic at a Dave and Buster's, had to update the six person halo game, which runs on Linux, people started gathering around with their oooo's and awe's, with one kid saying it was like the movies. People by and large are pretty fucking
stupidignorant.Edit to not sound so harsh.
Acklavidian@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
I mean idk. I know it's simple once you know but not something I would expect the average person to be familiar with. To be fair if you're hacking you're probably are using ssh at some point. But also I wonder if some have a hard time accepting their own accomplishments. If we never allow ourselves to see our own advancement then we just see others who have not achieved as less. Give yourself some credit bro and by extension give these onlookers a break. What you're doing is kinda cool. Is that not what draws you to these types of activities in the first place?
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 286d
That's a very solid outlook. Thanks for the perspective.
BilSabab@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 287d
I don't get the hype for Apple stuff. Custom built desktops or frankenlaptops look way cooler and it is a lot of fun to finally figure out what kind of gear you need.
Cryan24@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 287d
BilSabab@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
what's cool about it is that custom build is always a Theseus Ship and eventually you switch every single component but it is still your PC.
ParadoxSeahorse@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
It was always software vs Windows (which it goes without saying has always been trash), but I think nowadays it’s more of a hardware thing, Linux vs Mac OS, it’s not much of a much.
There are of course tons of features missing from the (laptop) hardware, touch screens, modems, any kind of interesting keyboards or folding etc. but the standard and reliability of the features it does have are of a pretty good class.
Desktops who cares
BilSabab@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 287d
I used to have Asus hybrid tablet laptop and it was my favorite computer simply because it had both keyboard and touchscreen and it was super fun to point your finger at the screen instead of using the touchpad. the downside was that the connector port wore out relatively quickly and it started glitching and then the touchscreen broke down and that was all she wrote for that adventure.
ParadoxSeahorse@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
Yeahhhh I love interesting form factors, give me more, I want them all! Yoga line has been really fun. Although there is something to be said for making it a bit more
tankietankish, for work, especiallyBilSabab@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
Yeah comrade, it seems weird that companies make portable computers so brittle.
imetators@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 14 pts · 287d
At 7yo my family got our first home computer. I had no idea how to use it properly, so I was constantly bricking OS on it which lead my father to constantly call in his friend to fix our computer. I bet constant ass whooping made me quickly learn how to undo my own mess. At 10yo I could reinstall win98 though floppy with NC
ayyy@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 287d
Or he could have spent that time teaching you instead of just…child abuse.
imetators@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 287d
He is tech-illiterate and knows jack shit. And ass whooping is very common in our culture unfortunately. Luckily, it sped up my computer learning.
Chee_Koala@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 287d
Hey, this is how I learned the ins and outs of W95 / XP . Oops, bricked the main (and only) PC again, better fix that before parent finds out. Now where is that install CD?
InFerNo@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 287d
I started with windows 95, although we had a monochrome pc someone gave us, but couldn't do much with it. Used floppy floppies, the big ones.
I was ecstatic when we finally got a real pc, with 16bit colors!
Fedizen@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 287d
First computer I used was DOS.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 286d
Also DOS. Now I'm a digital plumber, keeping the pipes and tubes of the Internet from getting backed up with all the things happening commercially.
Remember, the Internet is not something you can just dump something on, it's not a big truck.
FordBeeblebrox@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 287d
Also DOS, the single button on the Mac mouse was a whole new way of using a computer.
axexrx@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 287d
Mine had 3.1 on it, but most of the games had to b3 run through dos prompt
oppy1984@lemdro.id · 12 pts · 287d
So I started with a DOS machine that my dad had at work, then my school got a few Apple Macs in the library so I played Oregon Trail on the green screen, them the first computer we had at home that I was able to spend hours on was windows 3.1.
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 4 pts · 286d
'98 myself. But I got a vivid memory of being at my aunt's when her computer guy was there and he hated windows describing it as for the lazy. I was really young att but remember playing some kinda dig dug type game that had cartoonish CPUs as the collection goal. I also remember figuring out how to launch it on a dos system.
capnminus@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 288d
"discluded"
NaibofTabr@infosec.pub · 9 pts · 288d
disclude
capnminus@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
from Middle English, an obsolete term: https://www.oed.com/dictionary/disclude_v?tl=true
lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com · 1 pts · 287d
lemmy will upvote anything
Geodad@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 287d
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 286d
I was 8 when Linus posted on that Minix Usenet group about his hobby that won't be big at all.
hereiamagain@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 286d
I was around 13 for my first Linux install. Good times. Think pad 600, what a classic.
If I could have that exact same machine, with modern specs, I'd be hard pressed to use anything else. The nostalgia alone... So good.
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 286d
Ibm had fallen off a cliff. I remember having one that had a dock for it's cd reader and such. Things was God damned bullet proof! I got an IdeaPad recently and aside from the metal shell, it's pretty much garbage. Like I don't really know what they're doing with their bios, but I just installed an m.2 drive with a Linux install and it takes almost the exact same time to boot as it did from the fucking platter hdd!
porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 286d
they haven't been made by ibm for years and years
nomorebillboards@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 278d
You a dinosaur?
samus12345@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 286d
Same. Didn't show up until 3 years later.
samus12345@sh.itjust.works · 10 pts · 286d
What if you were started on an Apple computer before Macs existed?
ikidd@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 286d
Get out.
Korne127@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 287d
I'm studying computer science and while most use Linux, there are definitely more macOS user than Windows… so yeah, I don't really agree
Threeme2189@lemmy.zip · 9 pts · 287d
Most use Linux? Where the hell are you studying?
Korne127@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 287d
KIT
tetris11@feddit.uk · 3 pts · 287d
Man what a boring place Karlsruhe is when you compare it to its slightly more southern or slightly more frenchy neighbours, but what an absolute powerhouse of tech talent it breeds for the people who study there
Korne127@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 287d
:c
What city do you like more?
I like Heidelberg
tetris11@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 287d
Lörrach :p
Threeme2189@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 287d
That's pretty cool, during my University studies most people had either a windows laptop or an iPad.
ryedaft@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 287d
An iPad!? In computer science?
Threeme2189@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 287d
Mechanical engineering actually. They were mostly used to take notes during class. I'm pretty sure everyone had a laptop as well.
Treczoks@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
Upvoting the pyramid people!
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 3 pts · 287d
rustydrd@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 287d
The question was where, not what.
Passerby6497@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 287d
You've not hear of Computer Science University? And their sportsball team, the fighting Bugs?
LethargicPuppy14@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 287d
Computer science
tetris11@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 287d
The question was where, not what.
ParadoxSeahorse@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
In computer study science
tetris11@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 287d
Compute science
Threeme2189@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 287d
The question was where, not what.
vivalapivo@lemmy.today · 10 pts · 287d
As a non autistic Linux user since I was 14, I concur.
Mubelotix@jlai.lu · 3 pts · 287d
Same. Got a pc at 13 and my windows didn't last a whole year
ParadoxSeahorse@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 287d
Who’re you kidding
confusedbytheBasics@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
All the professionals say I'm not even a little autistic and I installed RedHat 5.2 on a cobbled together desktop when I was 14.
Disclaimer: I have been asked if I was autistic when flirting at bars though.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 287d
what operating system was that atari with a keyboard you could plug 2800 carts into
daggermoon@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 287d
Atari OS, which could only be used to access the floppy drive. Atari DOS could be booted from a floppy disk. I never used one of these machines, I skimmed the Wikipedia article on Atari 8-bit computers..
MathiasTCK@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
I am guessing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_TOS
Or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_DOS
wabasso@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 287d
That was also AutistOS
CannedYeet@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 287d
I started on a Mac from Apple's bad days. The school computers were Windows and it felt like all the other kids had Windows computers at home. I think feeling like I was at the disadvantage probably had an effect on me that led me to Linux. Also the second family computer ran Windows ME, so...
RaoulDook@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 287d
I started out with old Macs running System 7, and it was great. I had several good games installed from floppy disks and found some great shareware games online when we got our first modem and internet
Rhaedas@fedia.io · 9 pts · 288d
C-64 -> DOS (at school) -> Unix (at uni) -> Every Windows from 3.1 to Win10 including some NT -> Linux/Win10
That pretty much dates me, with that huge stretch of time.
Messed around with Linux a few times on and off (Mandrake was first), never took the plunge until recently where it's now my primary. And it's not Arch.
LemmyKnowsBest@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 287d
"discluded"
🤣
Nasan@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 287d
De-un-cluded even
ickplant@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 287d
I thought so too, but turns out it is a word, even if it might be misused here: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/129015/is-disclude-a-word-and-what-authority-says-a-word-is-a-word-or-isnt
MrEff@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 287d
We do not wish to exclude the population because it would preclude comparative analysis, but we wish to disclude them from this study in order to conclude the initial hypothesis.
Devjavu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 287d
In disclusion I should probably learn my engrish.
Kornblumenratte@feddit.org · 1 pts · 287d
Now include perclude and reclude! (Ok, I'm afraid English forgot to loot the last two from Latin's pockets, after she robbed her in a dark alleyway)
MrEff@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
Not to intentionally interclude, but perclude and reclude seem to have seclude from english.
lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com · 2 pts · 287d
Notice that ain't a dictionary.
Treczoks@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 288d
How about the tech skills of kids who actually built their first computer?
Quokka@quokk.au · 8 pts · 288d
I grew up with DOS, followed by Windows.
Mrkawfee@feddit.uk · 5 pts · 287d
I remember running QEMM because "640k should be enough for anyone".
Feeling like a hacker for writing a batch file that automatically started Windows from boot up.
Good times.
Fallofturkey@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
286 in the house, ... like literally in the center of the house, but we did have like a gui program called ezmenu. Still had to launch a lot of programs/games from directories though
Dyskolos@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 287d
sidebro@lemmy.zip · 7 pts · 288d
I built by first PC when I was 12, I guess I'm autistic.
anomnom@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 287d
I started on Apple 2 then Macs. Then used my graduation money to build a PC with just released Windows 98, Monster Voodoo video card a few months later (off of eBay no less).
Gamed and worked through my design degree on windows before switching back to Mac when it went Intel, and because I was working in web development and l dealing with Linux servers all day, but also needed Photoshop and layer Sketch (a nice vector UI design tool) and later as I ditched Adobe in my own company, Pixelmator (a nice Photoshop replacement).
I know a little Vi, I know a bit about spinning up servers and Ruby on Rails, pretty comfortable with a terminal/cli, have a few RPis around the house, and I grew up on and still use Macs.
fleebleneeble@reddthat.com · 5 pts · 288d
Mac as a kid, Windows for most of my life so far, Linux as a couple years now. I graduated a tech bootcamp with some good certs for DevOps/Cybersecurity, but they're expiring soon because the area I live has zero job openings and I completed the whole thing right as the AI "boom" was starting. Ugh
salacious_coaster@infosec.pub · 4 pts · 288d
I hear you. The IT industry has become a bloodbath like everything else.
toynbee@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 288d
It's still not what I would call common, but if you're well credentialed, you might be able to get remote work.
Hegar@fedia.io · 5 pts · 288d
Any correlation would likely be related to socio-economic status ie class. Macs were always more expensive, that's going to skew wealthier, which has way more impact on developement and learning than which OS you used as a kid.
ikidd@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 286d
"Discluded"?
msfroh@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 286d
Thank you! This meme is reposted often, and that non-word always jumps out at me.
cv_octavio@piefed.ca · 4 pts · 286d
pr06lefs@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 286d
I got into programming on a TRS-80 clone. Everything you needed to know to program it was contained in a little 150 page book that came with it.
To program the Mac, you needed a whole bookshelf of books.
Johnny101@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 286d
I installed Linux for the first time at 14.
hereiamagain@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 286d
13/14 for me. Thinkpad 600 😎
Johnny101@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
Its nice to know im not the only Linux kid. It felt so weird, most of my friends didn't even know what Android was. It sucks growing up tech savvy when most people call themselves nerds after discovering "air drop".
GreenShimada@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 288d
Also Apple IIe to start then Power Mac briefly, thanks to school. Later at home Windows 3.1 - Windows 7 I think, Back to OS X, Back to Win 10, Win 11, terror and enlightenment, now Linux.
Knowing how awesome a computer could be with the Power Mac made me demand more from a Windows machine, and then understand early on the disappointment with Windows that would last most of my life.
peoplebeproblems@midwest.social · 3 pts · 288d
As Bhuddism teaches, suffering is the human experience. Acceptance of this is necessary to reach nirvana.
GreenShimada@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 287d
Well, it's really more that pain is part of the human experience. Suffering is our reaction to the pain. We don't have to suffer when we experience inevitable pain if we are enlightened.
In context: Using Windows 11 is pain. Continuing to use it by choice is suffering. Accepting Linux into your heart and treating the inevitable tweaks like no big deal is enlightenment.
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 3 pts · 288d
My first machine was an Apple 2e. The first IBM machine I used was on DOS. I don't think I even saw Windows until Windows 95. We never had 3.1 or earlier.
AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net · 2 pts · 287d
First computer in my family's home was a shitty Macintosh Performa, pretty sure it was running 7.x. Probably the biggest impact that had was growing up a Marathon child, rather than a Doom one. Hexen on the N64, but otherwise didn't play Doom til later teen years.
But I also had extensive time on grand parent's Windows 98 machine. Monkey Island series, The Sims, Final Fantasy VII, bunch of other games.
I've had elementary and middle school classes on both Macs and Windows machines, but didn't gain any real typing skills until I used a Web TV device to access my first MSN chatrooms. Gained more typing speed in one day in chat than an entire quarter of typing classes.
First distro was Ubuntu 10.04. Had an interest in web design at the time, and had spent most of the years prior on a Windows XP desktop, then a Windows 7 one. Was more of an Unreal Tournament kid, again didn't try Quake 3 Arena until my twenties but I do prefer the latter now.
Every version of Windows after 7 feels weird and unfamiliar to me. I feel like I have to shower on the rare occasions when I do use a W10 telemetry machine. Have never had enough time to become familiar with any version of OS X, and iOS is so unfamiliar to me that I end up ragequitting those devices within minutes of trying to use them.
Spikyyn@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 287d
Spikyyn@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 287d
For some reason, Eternity shows this image until I clicked on the post lol
wildsir@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 287d
Spikyyn@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 287d
Brahvim@lemmy.kde.social · 2 pts · 286d
Yep! Encountered this bug once before.
Petter1@discuss.tchncs.de · 2 pts · 284d
In my region, people who grew up with mac are more likely to finish higher class school than people who grew up using windows.
But not because they use mac but because they tend to have richer parents…
infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 287d
But_my_mom_says_im_cool@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 287d
What’s with Lemmy and someone jumping into every thread like “LINUX IS MY MASTER!”
I constantly playing whack a mole and blocking all the Linux cultists communities
Edit: HE CALED US A CULT, BURN THE WITCH!
jim3692@discuss.online · 3 pts · 287d
Are there enough non-Linux Lemmy users to form a basketball team?