It's consistent. Their goal isn't to uplift the West to leftist values, it's to destroy the West for the sake of Chinese or Russian realpolitik or just plain anti-colonial revenge. A deeply Balkanized US that kills itself and diminishes its own power is one of the best things they could hope for.
Large nations can only maintain themselves through oppression. The dynamic of voluntary association with other nations is very different from that. Unity can be good or bad. It depends on the context.
Economic suffering of the lower classes is already guaranteed, as it has been for many decades in the USA, worse and worse practically every year.
The federal government is incredibly expensive, and not worth the cost; we really would be okay without a world-dominating military that can attack anywhere in the world in 24 hours. Our state governments are 100% capable and there is no need of the redundancy.
The FED goliath all costs much more than the returns, and only makes the military and banker profiteers wealthy.
Economic suffering of the lower classes is already guaranteed, as it has been for many decades in the USA, worse and worse practically every year.
Literally not. There are ways to reduce suffering via a UBI + rent stabilization + jobs bills like we've done in the past, for instance. It happened during covid—we have the infrastructure. That alone could offset a shitton of unnecessary suffering while they figure out a new economic model. A UBI can be temporary or not if necessary. Point is—there are options. You just gave up is all. That's a you problem. "Economic suffering of the lower classes is already guaranteed"
Even if there is suffering that is going to happen, balkanization is not the best option. It just takes some creative thinking by people.
I mean, I agree that balkanization isn’t the most ideal scenario. I’d much rather see a socialist revolution take over the whole country. Much better outcomes for nearly everyone.
No because that's not what Balkanization means. Balkanization is the process by which a country splits into various smaller countries, like what happened to the former Yugoslavia.
The US is increasingly dysfunctional, but it's still in one piece
They've not been renamed. Trump proclaimed it from his ass and twelve people on earth with access to a popular driving app accepted it and changed the names on the said app.
"Ahhh yes everyone! Who remembers when the Slovenians, Serbians, and Croations renamed the Mediterranean Sea!? Clearly is a necessary step of Balkinization.... WAYMENT!"
Karl Marx was alive during the civil war. We know what he and his fellow communists thought about it. In fact, some of his fellow Communists were Forty-Eighters: German Radicals who were exiled after the failed revolutions of 1848, many of whom fought in the civil war.
One of them was August Willich, an ardent Communist who thought Marx of all people was too conservative. A "Tankie" of his day.
The German Communists, like Willich, who fought in the American Civil War believed that the war against slavery, and in the side of the Union, was a Social Revolution against the reactionary landed gentry of the south.
Many Forty-Eighters settled in Southwest, Ohio. If you go to the rapidly gentrifying Cincinnati neighborhood of Over The Rhine, it's called that because it was originally made up of forty-eighter German immigrants, who became active participants in the underground railroad, and helped set up social programs to educate freed slaves, and provide them with housing and such.
So the only person lacking critical thinking here is you OP. You've made up a guy in your head, to get mad at.
Oh friend, you have this wrong, I agree 100%, sorry for not spelling it out! This meme is about the blind modern day teamist support for any "anti-west" regime, no matter how vile.
You know the same people that support pedophilia and genocide and manufacturing your news. They define what you see as "vile" and why we "vileness supporters" must be demonized and trolled. For purity of thought and spirit. For the liberal world order which preaches that we should accept different people, different cultures, different viewpoints. Except the vile ones of course, the impure ones. The many Hitlers of this world. As dictated by your masters who practice pedophilia and genocide.
It's not going to get much clearer than that. Because the sickness in your heads just doesn't make much sense. That's what you allowed yourself to become.
What conclusion am I supposed to draw from this? Am I supposed to now be sympathetic to Russia because of the issues with corporate American media? You are making wild assumptions of where I get my information from and what my views are.
I have disdain for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine just as I have disdain for Israel’s treatment of Palestine and the United States’ enablement of this.
Maybe you didn’t realize this, but the very same people withholding the full release of the Epstein files and allowing so many to skirt accountability for their horrible crimes are not exactly friendly to Ukraine.
No amount of bloviating about how supposedly unfairly the media treats figures like Putin and Trump is going to get me to support their expansionistic endeavors and immoral wars.
These vile, expansionistic behaviors are not simply different people with different viewpoints. The purveyors of these actions and their supporters are owed no tolerance.
I have disdain for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine just as I have disdain for Israel’s treatment of Palestine and the United States’ enablement of this.
No you do not. You're lying.
You clearly support coups and interventions in sovereign nations to overthrow their democratic government. Even Ukrainian courts have ruled that the Euromaidan massacre was perpetrated by far right (swoboda / nazi) elements. It's all documented and historical facts.
And you cannot know the historical facts and then deny that you are on team pedophilia. Because you're repeating all the talking points of the fascist pedophile team. From Bush in 2008 to Obama to Trump and Biden, the US strategy was long set for Ukraine and Georgia. You just choose not to listen to facts or do the work yourself of looking them up and instead repeat the hegemonic talking points.
That's you! A goon who does not care when a nation is manipulated, democratic governments are toppled and people massacred! You say you don't support imperialism but that is what you're doing right here! By denying simple historical facts!
And you call us "vile" lol. And you know what is funny? We don't even really support Russia! It's more like a default opposition to you because of your lies and hate and aggression and bloodlust and warmongering. In your arrogance you want to expand your "liberal world order" all around the world. I oppose that, but I don't support Putin.
If you have to assert that you know my position better than I do, you’re losing the argument.
It’s honestly really messed up of you to say that those who disagree with you are on “team pedophile.”
Me expressing that I have disdain both for what Israel and the US are doing with Palestine and what Russia is doing with Ukraine shouldn’t be controversial. It shouldn’t be getting you this worked up.
I will not be engaging with any of your inane, unsourced ramblings because you are not engaging in this conversation with respect and a genuine desire to understand. Your staggering arrogance prevents you from genuinely comprehending my position since you’re clearly more interested claiming that I’m somehow lying about my genuine views.
Nothing that you wrote accurately describes my viewpoints. It’s pathetic that you have to craft a fiction about my views in order to feel better about yourself.
It’s pretty clear that people are not being unfair to you in other interactions. You lead with being antagonistic and insulting and profoundly fail to genuinely engage with the conversation. Instead, you craft a fiction of what you wish my views are so you can tear that down instead. You demonstrate a profound lack of social skills and emotional intelligence.
Do better, and for your own sake, I sure hope you don’t go accusing people of being on “team pedophile” in person. It won’t go well for you.
Nah, this meme is about the Russia-supporting dorks we see so much of. You don't want to see more jokes about losers who twist themselves into intellectually and morally bankrupt shapes to defend authoritarianism, block button's right there, because I'm gonna keep clowning on em :)
You're not clowning, you're trolling and spreading lies and misinformation about people and disrupting discourse.
Huh maybe that is what it is. As a liberal in recent years the outlets for hate have become increasingly policed. You can't make jokes about LGBTQ or disabled or women or even religious people any more. But you people still feel that hate, that strong desire to hate on people, but now it needs new outlets since the familiar ones are policed. So your "clowning" needs new targets, any target really. I think I'm onto something here.
It's like you people need to shit badly, and are running down the street and looking for any excuse to find someone "vile" to shit on. You just can't function differently. So to you the need to shit is just so much more important than arguing based on logic or truth or facts or being polite to people who think differently. It's just that everything turns into shit in your head and your mouth is like an asshole with verbal diarrhea.
Thank you so much you helped me tremendously to understand people with your kind of problem.
I wouldn't mention the latter occasionally because you're still using lemmy, so you can't see my «Politics» label.
I sat down to review all your historical assertions without a single citation. Meaning, I won't cite back if you don't.
Are there Achtundvierziger today, or similar vanguard parties?
Godric maybe projecting the trends a sees from camp threadiverse comments & posts, but do we even have a contemporary vanguard party doing praxis? PSL legitimately doesn't count, so if you bring them as an example, we have nothing further to discuss. You can also work with Godric to end campist rhetorizing moving forward. Whenever you both see campism, hold them accountable. I believe all of us🧵 want to end campism. I in particularly want to see Dengism邓理论 gone forever.
Be aware that I use this instance exactly because I have given up on 习 . So honestly don't bring it up.
Yeah, what in the ever living fuck are you talking about? This AI listicle-ass comment is genuinely illegible to me. I don't understand what you're trying to say
1 and 2 pertain to the same topic. 2 even continues the same sentence.
4 and 5 should be grouped together, as 5 refers to 4.
6 and 7 should be grouped together. In part because they both are just regurgitation of propaganda made by y the same people that sold you on Nayirah's testimony, Iraq WMDs and the like. (Also, have to chuckle at the "campism" but when you very openly engage in pro-NATO campism.)
Just using standard paragraphs and not an ordered list would be more readable, since you are not enumerating anything, nor is there a good case for referring to each of these items by the numbers outside of the conversation about how useless the ordered list is here.
I totally skimmed what you had written as it was pretty inchoherent. If your politics have become so esoteric that Lemmy users can't parse them, that's a 'you' problem and you might want to examine it.
Like, the barrier to entry of Lemmy filters users here such that: most people here tend to have above average intelligence and reading comprehension.
So, you're either posting AI crap, or have gotten so twisted on some kind of propaganda that you can't meaningfully comminciate with others. If you're actually human you shoild probably unplug from your political ideology source and talk to an old wise hippy or something.
There's folk who can't help but make anti-tankie posts in the fediverse, which specifically and directly are requests for that kind of responsive content.
It could also be them making fun of you for having a goofy and ignorant worldview, in which case constantly swarming the comments with r/atheism style pseudo-intellectual groupthink is... a choice
Don't forget how they will also criticize western leftists and progressives endlessly for not being perfect and not even mention the right wing or non-western dictators. Bernie Sanders and AOC are apparently basically Nazis but Stalin was fiiiiine and who even cares about keeping fascists out of power.
Europe will never forgive the USSR for things like the 8-hour working day, women's rights, fighting against colonialism (including Germany and Japan, but also including many other places, like Vietnam, Mozambique, Korea, etc.), massively improving life expectancy and education, guaranteed housing, and otherwise improving workers' living conditions.
You did rely on the RSFSR for the 8-hour working day, to be precise, but, for example, the criminalisation of marital SA was first done in the USSR.
And yes, your empire did internally justify improving workers' living conditions by the fact that it would reduce communist support. This includes the 8-hour working day, which only started being a thing after the bolsheviks set it up.
Don't forget how the idea of anti-authoritarianism is just reactionary and therefore can be hand-waved away. Dictatorships are cool as long as they align with the "correct" principles.
I've said this in another comment, so likewise I'll preface that I'm not from the US so I use liberal as in classical liberalism, but under a materialist interpretation that I'm prone to agree with, liberalism is a bourgeois conservative ideology, thus a liberal is inherently in favor of the status quo and capitalism. So really, it's not about perfection, but rather an irreconcilable difference, or a contradiction, if you will. This is not to say that progressive liberals/social democrats can't enact meaningful material reforms, but usually not without confounding factors.
As for excusing Stalin and dismissing the opposition from progressives against the real threat of the far right, can't say I'm fond of the tribalism so common, but not exclusively, with MLs either.
Yes, OUTSIDE of the western bubble, the concept of right wing communists is pretty common. But as soon as westerners see it they're like "Why are you Communist AND criticizing the progressive left?"
Welcome to your first encounter with right/conservative/traditionalist or Nationalist Communism.
This is not a difficult thing to grasp:
Communism/Socialism are ECONOMIC as well as political philosophies. So you can have ECONOMIC views that can have either left or right POLITICAL philosophies attached.
The military bases doing the imperialism are named after those guys and what the Confederacy wanted to do if they won the war was take over Cuba and Venezuela and rename the Gulf of Mexico the American Sea. America is what happens when you aren't a tankie and quit Reconstruction.
yellow Michael Parenti about critical support:
And those who demand instant perfection, the day after the revolution, they get up and say "Are there civil liberties for the fascists? Are they going to be allowed to have their newspapers, and their radio programme? Are they going to be able to keep all their farms?" The passion that some of our liberals feel the day after the revolution, the passion and concern they feel for the fascists—the civil rights and civil liberties of those fascists who were dumping and destroying and murdering people before—now the revolution has got to be perfect! It's got to be flawless! Well, that isn't my criteria! My criteria is, what happens to those people who couldn't read? What happens to those babies who couldn't eat—that died of hunger? And there, that's why I support revolution. The revolution that feeds the children gets my support! Not blindly, not unqualified. And the Reaganite government that tries to stop that kind of process, that tries to keep those people in poverty and illiteracy and hunger—that gets my undiluted animosity and opposition.
ya that Neo Slavery video by knowing better helped to open my eyes as to just how badly the americans luuuived slavery and racism truthfully. Same tjing with 'Some More News' video about 'Systematic Racism Doesnt Exist'
Very few textbooks cover this topic of what happened to Black and Indigenois people from 1867-1968 and even after that.
The OP is definitely sarcastic. It’s very clearly mocking people who simp for countries like Russia simply because of their adversarial relationship with the United States. I have never once seen a liberal sincerely assert that tankies like The Confederacy.
OBVIOUSLY we should care because it's the internet and loud minorities dominate here, skewing our perception of reality and what political opinions are worth debating today, despite being fringe and unfeasible IRL /s
I have seen more wild mental gymnastics from people defending the most prolific invader in the world (i.e. NATO) and claims that the rest of the world is bad for defending itself against it.
On that note, what do you think a state should do when the most prolific invader in the world starts amassing troops on its borders (or otherwise in position to attack, like with Iran), especially after said invader carries out a coup against a neighbouring state?
Quick question: can you tell me what defensive operations NATO has performed? Like stuff it did in its own countries? This isn't a trick question, there are answers.
So defensive that they can't stop invading everywhere?
The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were such defensive actions, and so is the genocide of Palestine, according to you.
The USA doing invading with some allies is not the same as NATO doing it.
Name a single NATO state that did not participate in either of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Include Ukraine as a "NATO state".
hahaha, HaHaHa, HAHAHA! The origin story for both the original Hexbear and Lemmygrad community is being banned from reddit for "promoting political violence" for John Brown memes and saying Sherman's march to the sea was good. Perfect case of projection.
More like 19th century liberals: "We have to find a proper compromise with the slavers. I hate all of these tankie Russian Union bots saying this is about slavery. We all know this is about states rights and freedom!"
So are Hexbear and Lemmygrad not tankies? What tankies are you talking about that advocates for bad positions and are opposed to Hexbear and Lemmygrad or any other left instance on the Fediverse?
I was gonna try to defend my comrades for not being that brain dead then I saw the only other Lemmy.ml guy on this thread actively proving your point lmao
Its okay if you still want to. I find that they have a point in their grievances or pointing out how we in the west often fail at living up to our own proposed values of democracy and equality. I do get why they feel so strongly that they push to take it all, but the all or nothing is often counter productive I feel. Particularly given how much work they need to do with the general public that is not ready for some topics.
I've been called all sorts of names just for asking for real evidence instead of flimsy suggestive bullshit. It took SO much pressing to get anything at all on the Ukrainian Nazi line they love so much, and I got SO much hostility for it.
Eh, I've seen enough to agree that some elements within Ukraine and the Ukrainian military are using Nazi-associated symbols. But then again, so are some of the people invading Ukraine. And I don't really begrudge Ukraine for thinking that repelling an ongoing invasion and occupation is a more urgent problem than a few Nazi nutjobs on their own side. (Honestly, you'd be hard-pressed to find any military anywhere that doesn't have Nazi nutjobs in it. Military service is very attractive to that type of person.)
Yeah, that was kinda my takeaway when I finally got decent info. The Nazi groups seem to be getting big enough to be legitimately problematic, but like you said, I can't entirely blame Ukraine for focusing on bigger problems for now, especially when those factions are willing to help defend the country. It's kind of a cursed bargain, but it's not like they have better options right now.
Propaganda will do that. I've never met a single communist who denied that there was a major famine in China. The problem is that liberals seem to think Mao invented famine, when in fact China was experiencing famines every 2 to 4 years for over a century by the time the communists came to power. They had a theory for how to address the cycle of famines and increase food surplus, and their theory failed. But liberals think that Mao deliberately killed millions of people because he was an evil dictator instead of acknowledging the reality that Mao was leader of a massive government and they all failed as an organization by producing the conditions for famine. The context is also lost that eventually the Chinese revolution did end the cycle of famines permanently, and they were trying to solve it without any help from Western agriculture because the West was too busy protecting the fascist dictator that was holed up in Taiwan who was actively mass murdering and imprisoning political dissidents.
The Holodomor is another one of those things propaganda skews and breaks our ability to agree to a shared reality on. I have never met a single communist that denies that there was a famine and that many people died. What they often cite, which liberals can't reconcile, is that the famine affected many more populations than just the people who were supposedly targeted and that research into the incident shows that the crop yield was severely negatively impacted by weather and made worse by not just bad decision making but also bad decision making that was in part driven by punitive thinking. The famine happened, but propaganda would have us believe that the famine was unquestionably a deliberate attempt at ethnic cleansing or genocide, when the evidence seems to be far more in support of a natural famine made worse by poor management with an added dose of maliciousness that ultimately rolls up to bad management.
In contrast, you don't seem to have any problem with most Westerners having never even heard of the famines that were in fact deliberately caused by the West and for which the only explanation is the active choice of making a colonized population suffer.
Seriously. Was Holodomor a deliberate genocide? This is the hill you're going to die on? Yes, the famine affected a lot of people, but we all know which people were least affected and it wasn't the Ukrainians who were trying to actually grow the food. Much like the Irish Famine was only a tragic genocide because the British overlords wouldn't put up with reducing their own take. The blight was real, but the decimation was pure unjustified cruelty.
I'm a leftist, but I'm an honest one. We gain nothing by denying the past and refusing to learn from it. It does a disservice to us all to hide the fact that old ethnic and cultural violence behind a window dressing of systemic failure. Systemic bigotry is still bigotry.
The kazhaks lost more people per capita than Ukraine did. Major non-Ukrainian Russian populations centers suffered equally or very nearly as much as Ukraine did.
So you may think you're an honest leftist, but you might not be. As an honest leftist myself, I recognize that the Soviet government made tragic decisions, many of them punitive, none of them directed at ethnic cleansing, because the Soviet Union did not have an analysis that included specific ethnicities being material to their political goals as ethnicities. They understood, documented, wrote about, discussed, debated, legislated, and enforced the exact opposite of ethnic cleansing constantly. Yes, Ukranian suffered a lot through the transition to collectivized agriculture, more than most. But that's because the majority of Ukranian peasants were freeholders of land, whereas the majority of Russian peasants were serfs. As freeholders, they would lose their claim to their farms. Serfs would suffer no such loss. This was structural. Russian peasants weren't targeted for collectivization because under the Tsar they were already collectivized, whereas Ukranian peasants had private ownership of the land they worked.
Collectivization was not ethnic cleansing, the famine was not ethnically targeted, and the punitive actions of the Soviet Union were not ethnically motivated by an ethnic strategy of ethnic supremacy.
That's honesty. Honesty is doing the reading, doing the research, and not discarding all the evidence that contradicts the obviously contrived narrative. Yes there was a famine. Yes it killed more Ukranians in absolute numbers. Yes the Soviet leadership made deliberate decisions that were intended to punish people who were Ukranians. No it wasn't because they were Ukranian, no it wasn't because the Soviet leadership thought that ethnic cleansing would achieve their intended goals, no it's not because the Soviet leadership decided to artificially starve all of those people out of malice or ethnic supremacy.
Yes and proportionally the Romani were murdered by the Nazis at a higher rate than the Jews, but we don't think of it as the Romani Holocaust. The Russians used a cannon to swat flies and murdered millions and you're going to carry water for them based on official rationalizations? You sound like an American trying to justify racial red-lining.
Why don't you take a knee and admit you don't understand the situation and the context. At the end of the day, Soviet institutions were run by people, people with conditioned biases and baggage. I might have some sympathy for their ideological goals, but I will not overlook their atrocities. The Russians were ruled by monsters then, just like they are ruled by monsters now and the window dressing of their official ideology makes little difference.
Yes and proportionally the Romani were murdered by the Nazis at a higher rate than the Jews, but we don’t think of it as the Romani Holocaust.
...Youve just proven how thoroughly propagandized you are. loool. nato has always wanted you to remember the Holocaust as 'a jEwS oNlY' genocide cause they have wanted and have clearly succeeded, in convincing you that Isntreal has a right to exist cause of the Holocaust lol.
👏🏼👏🏽👏🏿Give yourself an applaid for being so thoroughly fooled anout the Holocaust AND the Sovoet Famine of 1932 you are. Nicely done 'lEfTiSt' . Nicely done 🥳👏🏿👏🏾👏🏽
Lol try picking up a book or looking up a study for once in your life 😂🤣🤭
Do you have a link to tankies denying there was an unwanted famine?
Holodomor was an unwanted famine that was redurected (food taken from farmers). Later wider famines were made worse mostly by Lysenkoism. A con-job which effected Russia and China.
Yet Communism is compared to Nazi? That's what's ridiculous liberal/right propaganda.
What happened is much more forgivable (although still regrettable) than what say the millions killed by the East India companies through intentional famines under Capitalism (done for profit), or the hundreds of millions in war dead from Capitalism in the past 30 years.
That's much more recent, but some redirected famine from the 1930s keeps coming up when talk of Socialism makes wealthy liberals a little too uncomfortable.
What is an "unwanted famine"? Nobody wanted a famine. Lysenko was wrong, and the government backed him because they didn't know he was wrong. It was a mistake, not a deliberate strategem to harm people.
If its nit quite thr flex that they think it is please explain how ? (you wont be able to but please go right on ahead 🍿🤭)
Ill just say now that your argument is that Slavic people and Chinese people are not allowed to be dumb once in a while so good lucck arguing that seeing as how they are humans. Go ahead. The floor is yours ....
Both the Holodomor and Chinese famine were caused by politicians that ignore actual agrarian science from actual farmers with actual farming experience. The bad yield was caused precisely by this ignoring of proven science. And the Holodomor had been especially bad for Ukraine because it was the USSR's bread basket because the Soviet authorities extracted as much food as possible, mirroring the Great Famine in Ireland when the British imperialists exported food from Ireland despite the massive starvation.
The Chinese failure of agriculture was under embargo from the West's proven science and supply chains. They were forced to come up with their own solutions from scratch from a starting position that was far far behind the rest of the world.
Lysenko was operating in a world where the West had developed the theory of the gene but not yet proven the gene existed and the West immediately developed it into eugenics from its racist tyrannical fascist politics, and Lysenko and the politicians were reacting to that. While Europeans were going around saying "genetics is real therefore we should kill all the poors and the browns before they taint our bloodline", the Soviets were saying "if we improve social conditions then people will heal for generations to come".
I know we are literally awash in comic book level propaganda where the evil Soviets were dastardly lying to everyone for power and control, but if you actually read the history, the narratives we have been fed start to look a lot like outright lies.
100% if they had followed the science they would have done better, but science is not apolitical, research on heredity especially so, and without any molecular basis for the theory of genetics, it looks a lot like master race politics.
Chinese people and Slavic peoole arent geniuses even when they work together collectively. They make stupid decisions just like you and me and other Westerners do too. Honestly being a genius is like a 1 in a milloon thing whether youre a westerner , Chinese,, Slavic or whatever. YOU WILL MAKE MISTAKES. THEY MADE MISTAKES.
And then they made the stupid decision to. believe that discrediting rich farmers with experience in China when they shoild have listened to some of their advice when it xame to growing and storing certain grains and livestocks. (YES the CHinese were stupid and humans just like you and I)
They DID learn from those mistakes. There was never anither recorded famine in the USSR after 1932.(well TECHNICALLY there was a famine when the nazis invaded BUT that was cause there were like 10 million nazi soldiers burning land and killing livestock accross western USSR. but ya you get my point). And there was never another recorded famine in CHina until Dengism became more popular.
Farmer knowledge and know how wasn't embargoed by the West. Lysenko and Mao were just idiots who didn't listen to experts despite warnings. Also, people already knew about genetic inheritance long before the 20th century, even if DNA wasn't discovered yet. You are just white washing the truth.
Yes, argicultural technology was absolutely embargoed from China by the West. What world do you live in? The Foreign Assets Control Act was relatively comprehensive and then a year later the "UN" adopted a total collective embargo.
It wasn't embargoed from the USSR. But that was before the Green Revolution anyway. Everyone in the world was heavily subject to crop failures, like the 50% crop failure in the US Dust Bowl in the 30s. It's not like there was a known good recipe to solving famine cycles during the first 2 decades of the Russian revolution.
The idea that Mao was an idiot is neither borne by the evidence nor useful as an explanation. He was clearly effective for long periods of time for highly complex problem spaces. But he made a similar class of mistakes to the mistakes that the USSR did in agriculture. Mistakes that they eventually corrected.
As a .ml user, I hereby denounce the states’ rights to own slaves for which this war was fought. The confederates were not fighting against “the west”, they were fighting for racism and bigotry.
However, I do offer critical support to Hasan Piker, and think Americans should take a long hard look at foreign policy which led to the 9/11 attack. It’s the worst it’s ever been now, giving taxpayer dollars to Israel for them to purchase American politicians and order them to bankroll and provide cover for ongoing genocide and destabilization of the region so that Israel can steal more land. Like owning slaves, rank imperialism and land theft is wrong, especially post-globalization.
The Confederacy was fighting against the United States. Under tankie logic, that must mean that they're virtuous and attempting to build communism. In reality, they were fighting to preserve chattel slavery.
Okay but Lenin considered the US Civil to be good actually
But what a pedant, what an idiot would anyone be to deny on these grounds the immense, world-historic, progressive and revolutionary significance of the American Civil War of 1863-65!
The representatives of the bourgeoisie understand that for the sake of overthrowing Negro slavery, of overthrowing the rule of the slaveowners, it was worth letting the country go through long years of civil war, through the abysmal ruin, destruction and terror that accompany every war. But now, when we are confronted with the vastly greater task of overthrowing capitalist wage-slavery, of overthrowing the rule of the bourgeoisie—now, the representatives and defenders of the bourgeoisie, and also the reformist socialists who have been frightened by the bourgeoisie and are shunning the revolution, cannot and do not want to understand that civil war is necessary and legitimate.
Yes. But these topics about tankies are about reinforcing 'us/them' rationalizations for those who already have their prejudice. The comments here certainly do.
By providing a critical thinking from Lenin, you instead become the tankie, and therefore become incapable of critical thinking, per the meme. Therefore anything Lenin might've said or written can just be dismissed.
And so the tankie can be mocked as a confederate chud nonetheless.
I think you're mistaking the lunatic left for the lunatic right. The left usually did their homework at least. Better than the right who refuse to acknowledge what they call "Capitalism" has nothing to do with the foundational principles of the theory.
This is a straw man. Tankie logic clearly understands the concept of factions and factional disputes within a larger system. The US had two major bourgeois factions within it - agrarian raw materials producers/merchants and industrialists. These two factions were fighting for their faction's existence and ultimately the power to dominate their colonized subjects in the way that seemed most beneficial to their faction.
If you aren’t American: Depicted are American civil war reenactors with the flag of the Confederacy which seceded from the Union of the United States in the 19th century due to built up tensions regarding slavery. The Confederacy were ultimately fighting to keep slavery as a government institution.
The target of the joke are tankies (described briskly above), which we will see on Lemmy, often see any action taken against the US or the EU (the West) as praiseworthy, blatantly disregarding or downplaying equivalent or worse actions from non-western nations.
The subversion of expectation here is that a tankie would see the pro-slavery Confederacy as praiseworthy because they’re fighting the US government, despite the Confederacy’s blatantly immoral cause.
Caveat - I say this with bias as someone explicitly against authoritarian bootlickers, like tankies.
Thank you for your efforts, I really do appreciate it. It makes discussion a lot more accessable to people who do not know the details of US history. I am not american myself but unfortunately I have family who live in Kennesaw. I hope that's self explanatory 🥲
I guess the joke doesn't make sense because Lenin thought it was based that the civil war happened because slavery is wack.
Strawman. Tankies literally have a phrase for this. It's called "critical support", which means supporting the efforts of anti-imperialism while reserving the right to criticize without that critique rising to the level of reversing the support for the anti-imperialist action
Who is "them" exactly here? Are you listening to teenagers on TikTok and extrapolating a whole ideology here? Tankies aren't anti-American by definition. Someone is feeding you some pretty twisted propaganda.
China bad because of their human rights record. Where as the west can judge them (being from the same culture and all) because the west has a perfect human rights record. What you disagree? \s
It's super weird when Liberals forget about Iraq, Afghanistan, Indigenous Genocides, Racial Profiling and the war on terror, Gitmo, Palestine, and Slavery all at once.
"Oh but in the past China and Russia had famines".
They don't realize they're effected by 100 years of conservative messaging.
I mean I kinda get it. The biggest obstacle to World Peace today is the US. So you could make the argument that anything that opposes US Hegemony gets us closer to world peace. Idk that I would go so far as to "support Russia" but I understand the logic.
Please don't defend them. These kinds of arguments lack any kind of deeper thought or nuance. It's literally just trolling and straw-men. Do not feed the trolls.
These kinds of arguments lack any kind of deeper thought or nuance.
I mean that's what Zionists say about Pro Palestine group. That's what Americans said about resistance groups in the middle east. That's what Americans said about the Natives.
I just disagree with this entire philosophy. You should be able understand an argument you disagree with.
I didn't say don't understand them, I'm saying they're literally not thinking that deeply about it. They want to get a rise out of you and someone showed them they can do that by opening with a straw-man like this. By deliberately misrepresenting what "Tankie" means they can completely disarm it and force you to defend a position they chose, which they know is indefensible. It's pure rhetorical strategy, they don't actually know or care what a Tankie thinks. They're trying to make the word mean something it never has and never should mean. Is it possible someone on their side has done some work to rationalize their twisted interpretation. That rationalization is usually paper thin and almost no one on their side knows or cares about it besides its usefulness as a tactical fallback. They don't believe any of this, its a rhetorical game and the point is their nihilistic disregard for consequences.
That sounds like a description of every troll. Tbh I keep hearing tankie thrown around, but I've never had the conversations people who complain about it have.
Tankie is a general term for someone who thinks there is a clear justification to use force or the threat of force to impose a socialist system on a state. The term originates with people who supported the USSR "Sending in the tanks" to annex other countries and crush dissent from people in their sphere. They are what people mean when they "If you go far enough left, you get your guns back." These days they tend to be a tiny minority within the rather small minority of actual leftists. They do exist, and some of them are pretty out there, but not the way the .ml crowd tends to characterize them. They're terrified of them, because in their heads the most terrifying thing in the world is a leftist that is willing to fight back, and they don't recognize anything that doesn't kill someone as "fighting."
The kind of revolutionaries they support are morally bankrupt. Like Che Guevara was a complete dick who committed war crimes in order to help install an authoritarian regime in Cuba. Or how Mao got more people killed than anyone in human history and not just his enemies, his supporters too.
What was confusing was the example chosen because it is something Lenin had a position on. Which was the opposite of what was shown. I am coming to understand it's meant as an absurd example to criticize "tankies" but I guess this example only makes sense if you don't know that.
I'm also confused about the usage of critical support being contrasted to critical thinking because critical support means applying critical thinking to a situation instead of blanket support. But I guess if you aren't looking at something with the same values that can be hard to see.
Lenin agreed with the union, because slavery is bad. Tankies, because they cherry pick the history they pay attention to would likely ignore that and cheer for the Confederacy. It's what they do. It's not that confusing.
I thought tankies was a rude name for Marxist Leninists? I couldn't tell if the meme was making fun of people who use the term tankie or Marxist Leninists which is why I said I didn't get it, but I get it now.
One of our biggest, and honestly most important, exports is entertainment. Movies. Books. Television.
Lots of those about WW2. Lots of different stories to tell there and make ourselves the hero.
Especially when most of the time spent between 1945 and 1994 was spent with the USA having a dick measuring contest against the USSR. And we've very much proven ourselves to be the biggest dicks.
Could you really blame Putin for his role in this information war, given this context?
Not saying he's right. Just saying he's justified. Tit for tat.
We didn't invent the printing press for sending greeting cards. We didn't even invent the printing press...but we sure make people think we did.
Implying that the number of dead on your side is a good way to measure contribution to the war effort is the most communist thing I've read in a while.
What else should count? If more Nazis died in the Eastern front than other fronts, it seems to imply the USSR did more of the job of winning the war than other countries.
I mean just the numbers don't mean much as absolute values. Sure, USSR did a lot to counter nazis, and should be praised for that, but to think that their contribution scales with the number of dead... that's the part that makes no sense.
Nazis and Russians died in huge numbers in the eastern front simply because there were so many of them on both sides.
I feel like a massive portion of people are missing the point of this post and jump to the conclusion that OP is some Zionist uncle Sam loving conservative that hates anything slightly left of centre.
Nah, your just missing the point that being able to say "America is somewhat bad" makes up for fully supporting all of the US's foreign policy positions. There must be genocide in Xinjiang because the fascist evangelical German that wrote a book about how cool the apocalypse will be because you get to watch all the Jews burn in a lake of fire said that it is a genocide. It is only half of why you have to hate the ICC because they err the other way by saying that Israel is committing genocide. So they are silent on the Chinese genocide while being wrong about the Palestinian "genocide".
Or maybe it's okay to call out bullshit on your own side?
America has committed a LOT of atrocities. Trail of Tears. Pine Ridge. Slavery for god's sake. Fuck, we invaded the wrong country after 9/11 and let Saudi get away with sponsoring it. Then we have the Monroe Doctrine and South America plus all the Middle Eastern governments that we overthrew. The nuking of Japan was the decision to save millions of soldiers at the expense of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Fewer lives, yes, but it's rather difficult to justify the murder of the innocent. We're propping up Israel and allowing them to commit atrocities against the Palestinians. At this point, the US and Israel are the only real parties in the way of a two-state solution. Hamas could easily be taken care of without the killing of Palestinians who just want to be safe and secure.
Die-hard tankies refuse to call out anything on their own side (or the enemy of their enemies) and that's the problem OP is bringing up. If that doesn't describe you, then great, I'm not talking about you. There's no good-faith way to support modern day Russia and the invasion of Ukraine.
No, it is not the unwillingness to call out infractions. It is more the extreme disproportionality of liberals. The invasion of Ukraine is such a historical evil that any explanation of it (outlawing of Russian in school and government documents, being worried about NATO expansion, etc.) is excusing the Putin Regime that does evil only because they like evil and have no other motivation than maximizing evil. So any Russian that isn't currently attempting to overthrow the government is an evil orc that deserves death.
But all of the wars of aggression and invasions the US made in the 21st century means that the US is slightly flawed and being too left or wanting to overthrow the government is too far. We need to hold our nose and vote for Democrats because they might make the invasions slightly more limited and be more polite while funding the Israeli genocide.
But that is actually the real issue that Liberals take issue with. Explaining that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil and that all of the US's wars of aggression makes it the worst state in the current world, rather than a flawed and imperfect democracy that should still be the model for the world is what makes one a tankie.
The invasion of Ukraine is such a historical evil that any explanation of it (outlawing of Russian in school and government documents, being worried about NATO expansion, etc.) is excusing the Putin Regime that does evil only because they like evil and have no other motivation than maximizing evil. So any Russian that isn't currently attempting to overthrow the government is an evil orc that deserves death.
At what point did I say anything resembling that? The war is an evil war and I cheer any Russian fighting against it but I don't believe it's "such a historical evil" nor do I believe that Russians deserve death just because they aren't fighting against it. Shit, if I believed that, I'd have to believe the same about a lot of people in the US, too, wouldn't I?
But all of the wars of aggression and invasions the US made in the 21st century means that the US is slightly flawed
Did you not read what I wrote above or...?
wanting to overthrow the government is too far.
Yes, it is, but probably not for the reasons you think. Revolutions rarely are successful, even if you win. They're usually coalitions of common enemies who rarely agree on what they want. They're often led by opportunistic figureheads who want to take advantage of the position. There will be tens of millions who die. I can't imagine any political belief can be worth that many lives.
The Declaration of Independence has been considered one of the most influential doctrines of all time for a good reason. There's a single sentence in it which I find rather relevant: "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
Would you not agree that there have been moments in the US history where, if progress continued, we'd be at a position that was acceptable to you? If so, you have to also believe that we can still get back to that place.
On top of all that... How much of the US do you think agree with your views? How are you going to experience long-term success with little buy-in?
We need to hold our nose and vote for Democrats because they might make the invasions slightly more limited and be more polite while funding the Israeli genocide.
Nah, that really does suck, I agree with you. But don't you think that replacing our FPTP method of electing politicians, reducing the power of the Executive branch, and adding much stronger guardrails, oversight, and penalties against corruption might be a more effective method to achieving your goals? Most people are in favor of these policies. Why do you claim you're willing to take up arms when you can't even knock on your neighbor's door?
Explaining that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil and that all of the US's wars of aggression makes it the worst state in the current world, rather than a flawed and imperfect democracy that should still be the model for the world is what makes one a tankie.
I understand why Putin wants Ukraine. They have large mineral deposits which can help accelerate economic growth while their rich farmland can provide quite a bit of food for the people of Russia. I also know that these reasons aren't much different than those that America has fought for in wars during the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. Again, you can agree that both things are fucked.
I mean I don't know what you're trying to say here cuz yeah that's objectively correct. Liberals valued the concept of private property so incredibly highly that slavery was extended and preserved in most of the world when it didn't need to be. That is undeniably their legacy.
Considering how many liberals support things like returning slavery to Tibet, or enslaving Libya, or doing similar things to Syria, Palestine, Korea, Russia, Afghanistan, etc. they might as well be saying that.
Hell, you do support NATO attacking and subjugating the rest of the world, so why pretend as if I don't have any examples?
Speaking of examples, you haven't pointed out any socialists who supported the Confederacy at the time, nor any socialists who do now.
They're technically correct. The British never stopped calling the American Revolution a rebellion; the difference is completely subjective. That said, fuck the Confederates, those bitches lost, so the leftovers need to suck it up and move on.
Gee, I wonder who are trying to advocate for this? Surely Russia and China who are attacking Ukraine and encroaching an entire body of ocean, respectively, aren't the ones with an army of online trolls who are promoting this.
Unfortunately USA works hard on the collapse on their own. 130% debt to GDP? WTF is this, Greek development strategy? On top of stupid trade wars and neglecting renewable energy sector...
Yes Americans are doing it on their own, but the usual suspects are accelerating it through hybrid warfare for obvious reasons. The Far East will become vulnerable to Chinese domination and Europe will become more vulnerable to Russian aggression (although I think even after the conflict in Ukraine, Russia will become second to China).
Europe will become more vulnerable to Russian aggression
Russian economy is fucked, they burned trade bridges left and right, sent their youth to die in meaningless war in Ukraine got trade sanctioned by most of civilized world, meanwhile China develops renewables and nuclear to reduce dependence on Russian oil exports. Russia is never going to recover.
China is growing to be the next leading global superpower whether we want it or not
No but ask Philippines, India, Taiwan, Japan and South Korea what could happen to them should communist China dominates. Even ask Vietnam, a country who should in theory align with China.
No, broooo, trust me broooo, the nondemocracies that rival the world's biggest democracy would never try to dishonestly influence voters, trust me brooooooooooo
He calls if the 'world's biggest democracy' but many Indians are not happy about what the Indian goverrnmet is doing.
Many Indians still live paycheque to paycheque and also India is still involvedd in Unequal Exchange with many of their trading partners meaning that most Indians dont eveng et most of the lahourbthey work for. And also there is Kashmiri people who DEFINITELY dont like the Indian government. And also Nagaland!
"The world's biggest democracy" 🤣. You have a two-party system, both of which advocate for the same foreign policy.
In the last century, could we do a comparison of the wars that "the world's biggest democracy" engaged in, and look at how many of them were self-defense and how many of them were for imperialism? And comparing that to China and Russia might be a fun game as well.
Sure, the other two non-democracies you simp on is so much better and not engaging their own imperialist agenda and align with your own purported beliefs.
Find me one comment or post of mine where I "simped" for any country, I dare you.
I don't engage with the "Chinese imperialist agenda" and shit because it's so unserious, especially looking at what the U.S. has done EVERYWHERE. Have you fucking seen what life is like in Cuba, just because of U.S. sanctions and oil blockade? Do you know of the concentration camps that the U.S. used to torture completely innocent Arabs? Do you know just how much suffering America's 9/11 craze caused?
And this is just contemporary, and I'm not listing everything.
In honor of labor day and all those who sacrificed for better working conditions I’ve been thinking of ways to make our voices heard. I think protesting at FAA air traffic facilities is a great option. If we keep controllers from accessing their jobs the air space shuts down. This would be a huge blow to Trump!
Let me explore how we organize these protests. The beauty is most of these employees are sick of going to work because they HATE TRUMP! They just need to see the public is on their side and we need to give them a reason to not show up for work! Air traffic controllers think their duty is to go to work and pretend everything is normal, if we protest right in front of them they will know the public wants them to act!
We will also not hurt the individual. The air traffic centers where there is a higher volume of controllers are paid very well. They also have great union benefits. Including leave pay called “weather leave”, which is usually time paid for absence from work due to adverse conditions. Well protests right outside their workplace is an adverse condition and the union will make sure the federal government pays the individual if they can’t make it to work!
So how do we organize this. I think we should target the air traffic centers “ARTCC”. These are large radar facilities where 100+ employees work every day. They have one gate access point. You can start off small, just on the sidewalk with signage expressing that serving Trump is shitting on the Constitution (this is a common debate between federal employees now) This can be as small as 1 person just out there on the sidewalk peacefully holding up a sign. Totally legal.
Now if we have enough numbers we can start “crossing the street” protests. Pedestrians legally are allowed to cross the street in front of the entrances to these centers and we can utilize slow walking speeds to delay entry to employees. Usually this should be done between 6-9am and 2-6pm as those are shift change hours.
Finally a lot of controllers may find other reasons to not show up to work. Emotional distress, lack of sleep, or fatigue are all Union protected reasons controllers could get PAID time off while we the people protest against the trump regime. Once the administration is deposed the worker individual can return to work normally with little impact to their financial situation!
So this is my protest idea. It’s one way to affect Trump adversely, a lot of federal employees are sick of this shit, THEY JUST NEED A REASON SO LET’S SHOW THEM WE WANT THEM TO FUCK TRUMP OVER
So you read all this and you’re still thinking “oh well nothing near me and I can’t do much” Well you probably do have a FAA airport near you with a control tower, you can protest there, or many other agencies that are run by the federal government. Finally you can copy this and spread it. You can edit it if you need to but just spread this idea.
Life in the USA cannot continue to go on as if this is all normal, something has to break! It’s Labor day weekend as I write this, let’s demonstrate labor still has the fucking power!
Right, I thought you were talking about something that ACTUALLY happens when the topic comes up, not just being hyperbolic like Trump when decrying socialism.
I take it you're a "I dislike both sides, we need a return to the middle" type of centrist?
That's not really a conflict to do with American Imperialism (as per the meme).
I think sometimes the word "tankie" is used by well meaning centrist Liberal to mean "anyone Socialist" and then pose these really simple strawmen, which might even be informed by, or aid in going after Socialists of all varieties.
...and that feels very much like something the conservative right (generationally) has set up, as much as it's a response to "once some communist prick was mean to me because I hadn't read the same books as him" (a known phenomena, and problem in a few communities)...
...either way it seems like fodder to create leftwing infighting. Which probably isn't a good thing.
More like look at how the government uses their citizens to fight against each other to decide which wealthy group gets control. Truly a disgusting display of manipulation and inability to govern somehow transformed into "freeing the slaves" when the resulting sharecropping was often worse than slavery. Propaganda is one hell of a drug.
Yeah, no, get outta here with that confederate bullshit. Southern Slavery was an evil institution, and the Union shooting it out of the South was a good thing.
Okay, this person is completely incorrect in their claim about sharecropping. But yes, the US federal government did not think slavery was an issue worth going to war to end. The Confederacy explicitly existed to continue slavery even though it was not threatened whatsoever in the South and more by freesoilers out west, including Lincoln and most "antislavery" activists. The US invaded the Confederacy because the Confederacy picked a fight and decided to shoot first, it was not about any moral ground. The decision to implement antislavery policy as a tactic during the war is more accurately attributed to the growing food and resource crisis the Confederacy suffered relative to the huge advantage that guaranteeing freedom to the overwhelming enslaved population there created.
So, yes, it was good that slavery was abolished as a consequence of this War, but it would be distortive to suggest the Union fought to do that specifically. Solidarity among property-owning classes was a much more influential element in whether war broke out, and was indeed a huge reason why the war did not start until southerners started it despite the many good moral reasons to shut it down.
Thank you for diverging from that sharecropper dipshit!
I would mention how the American West was a constant battleground, as shown with Saint John Brown.
You are absolutely correct that while Lincoln was an abolitionist, he said he wasn't willing to risk the Union over the "issue". Yet despite the claimed class solidarity between the North and South propertied, the South still became traitors as soon as Lincoln was elected.
Oh yes, but the resulting sharecropping was cool and pitting families against each other to fight the wealthy's war was great. Now run along like a good little propagandized fascist fuck.
Bud, I'm gonna have to see some sources on the sharecropping claim. Either you haven't read enough slave narratives, or there is some insanely obscured events related to sharecropping.
Edit: Okay, so we've confirmed this dude is just racist.
It is simple, many slaves were treated better than sharecroppers. There was no freedom other than oppression for sharecroppers. Everytime blacks looked they would get rights the whites came in and destroyed their communities, wealth, and political capital. It was fucking torture that still exists strongly to this day.
If they were free why are they still being abused to this day? Freedom must mean something very different to you.
Bud, you gotta open you eyes to reality. No one in power at the time thought slaves were equal even Lincoln. You are going off of some re-envisioning bullshit. There are more slaves now than at anytime in history.
It is simple, many slaves were treated better than sharecroppers.
How could you possibly know this? What do you mean by "many"? eight? One hundred? Half?
Take a deep breath, calm yourself, and try to focus. I'd ask you to elaborate further on more of your comments, but first, tell me all about how it's simple to reach that conclusion and how you made it. It should be easy to explain, because it's simple.
Okay, Im not 100% certain of what you think you're saying, but this and the comment below aren't coherent.
You said sharecropping was worse than slavery, and that is not elevating the systemic racism experienced by African Americans in a post-Civil War era to the present, it actually diminishes it by denying the severity of slavery. I don't think you realize what you've said, because it is immensely racist.
Black women's bodies were objectified for their reproductive capacity throughout the history of slavery in the US, but especially so in the early decades of the 19th century after the importation of enslaved peoples was banned and the only source of growth for that population was through their bodies. This meant they were raped to produce more slaves dude, sexual violence is inherent to slavery, but think for a minute about just how brutal that single element of the institution is. This is of course not even the only form of sexual violence that occurred within African American enslavement in the US; white slave owners regularly raped women they claimed ownership over, engaged in sexual humiliation as a form of punishment, in Louisiana, wealthy owners would even participate in balls or galas where they'd display their "mistresses," which were enslaved women.
This isn't even getting into the myriad of other vectors of violence, the brutal punishments that were inflicted on them, the degree of forced labour, forced malnutrition (yes, worse than simply being a poor farmer), the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 even allowed the abduction and forced enslavement of relatively any African American in slave or free states should they find themselves in an unfortunate position.
The reason why slavery was bad is the same reason there are constant attempts by racists in the US to claim that racism is over because the "actual" bad elements of it are abolished and the only reason there is discrimination afterward is due to some innate flaw in black people or individuals' character. They did it after slavery was abolished, after black men were elected to political positions, after the great migration, after the Civil Rights Act, after Obama got elected. Erasing the brutality of slavery to elevate some other form of oppression neglects the reality that those two forms of oppression are relational, both in their historical developments and in the ways each are facilitated within a racist system.
Please, do not spread misinformation irresponsibly, even if you're trying to do something good.
I asked for any source and you linked some (inadequate) secondary sources below that simply discuss that sharecropping was discriminatory. Slavery wasn't bad just because it was racist, and you clearly thought that was the case. I'd be happy to provide a reading list when I have a minute.
Also, you not only said that, but you said it multiple times explicitly throughout this thread. Bud, you gotta stop pretending to know about shit you clearly don't know well enough about.
What is the serious fuck are you talking about!? I was pointing out the end of slavery didn't materially improve the lives of sharecroppers in the South. Life got worse, not better which is a conundrum if you believe in a progressive movement in history. They had no protection, they were raped and murdered at will. I am not saying it was better than slavery but rather a new form of torture.
You have got to be trolling or perhaps acting stupid on purpose. I really don't care at this point.
It’s a joke. Building off the meme. And example would be the entire 2024 election cycle, where the tankies essentially preached trump / MAGA is bad but Harris isn’t perfect, so I won’t vote for Harris - thus letting trump win.
My original comment was disagreeing with the meme.
Did letting trump win (by refusing to vote for Harris) stop the genocide in Gaza? Did trump not also promise to keep supporting genocide in Gaza? Now we have genocide there, and ethnic cleansing in the USA, plus several more atrocities on top of that. None of which would have happened if Harris won.
Which President would have been easier to convince to turn away from Israel ( assuming it were a possibility)?
264 Comments
Carmakazi@piefed.social · 52 pts · 1d
It's consistent. Their goal isn't to uplift the West to leftist values, it's to destroy the West for the sake of Chinese or Russian realpolitik or just plain anti-colonial revenge. A deeply Balkanized US that kills itself and diminishes its own power is one of the best things they could hope for.
Zizzy@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 24 pts · 1d
A balkanized US is the best thing I could ask for too and I hate tankies
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net · 5 pts · 1d
Every large country should be balkanized.
chaogomu@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 1d
I'd say the opposite.
Countries should be deeply tied together, both internally and externally.
Isolation and little fiefdoms are what the right wing monsters want. Little kingdoms where accountability is optional.
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net · 8 pts · 1d
They can be tied together voluntarily under a system that isn't the autocratic nation state.
Look at the world today. The biggest countries are all the worst exporters of right-wing autocracy. So I think your analysis is very backwards.
chaogomu@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
The largest countries who all stand alone and refuse to truly tie themselves to the international community.
I think you've missed the point.
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net · 7 pts · 1d
Large nations can only maintain themselves through oppression. The dynamic of voluntary association with other nations is very different from that. Unity can be good or bad. It depends on the context.
FlyingCircus@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 1d
Germany is arguably the heart of the EU and also has arguably the most concerningly powerful far right wing in the EU.
dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 1d
And all of the economic suffering for the lower classes which will happen if balkanization happens?
Mulligrubs@lemmy.world · 21 pts · 1d
Economic suffering of the lower classes is already guaranteed, as it has been for many decades in the USA, worse and worse practically every year.
The federal government is incredibly expensive, and not worth the cost; we really would be okay without a world-dominating military that can attack anywhere in the world in 24 hours. Our state governments are 100% capable and there is no need of the redundancy.
The FED goliath all costs much more than the returns, and only makes the military and banker profiteers wealthy.
Natanael@infosec.pub · 3 pts · 17h
You don't seem to understand economies of scale
Yes your feds are inefficient, but the cause isn't simply size, it's deliberate wastefulness for political points
And that can be changed
dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 1d
Literally not. There are ways to reduce suffering via a UBI + rent stabilization + jobs bills like we've done in the past, for instance. It happened during covid—we have the infrastructure. That alone could offset a shitton of unnecessary suffering while they figure out a new economic model. A UBI can be temporary or not if necessary. Point is—there are options. You just gave up is all. That's a you problem. "Economic suffering of the lower classes is already guaranteed"
Even if there is suffering that is going to happen, balkanization is not the best option. It just takes some creative thinking by people.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -1 pts · 19h
And what are you going to do post-balkanization when the southern states decide to legalize slavery?
FlyingCircus@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 1d
Pales in comparison to the economic benefit to the global working class if US imperialism ends.
Still not good that workers will suffer, but US balkanization would be a good thing for humanity at large.
Natanael@infosec.pub · 3 pts · 17h
Power vacuums doesn't benefit anybody
FlyingCircus@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 14h
I mean, I agree that balkanization isn’t the most ideal scenario. I’d much rather see a socialist revolution take over the whole country. Much better outcomes for nearly everyone.
dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -9 pts · 1d
What state do you live in?
idiomaddict@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 23h
Are you suggesting that the only people who get to have an opinion about the US live within its borders?
That’s pretty out of line when the US is currently aggressing multiple other countries
FlyingCircus@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 1d
Why does that matter to the argument at hand?
dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com · -8 pts · 17h
Lets them know their opinion is worthless because they can't answer the question. If they say "not from the states" who will listen to them?
Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 1d
Are you fine with all the suffering that "the lower classes" are to continue to be subjected to in the case of the US continuing to exist as is, then?
alapakala@quokk.au · 1 pts · 1d
Is not being balkanized by fascists right now‽
SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml · 11 pts · 1d
No because that's not what Balkanization means. Balkanization is the process by which a country splits into various smaller countries, like what happened to the former Yugoslavia.
The US is increasingly dysfunctional, but it's still in one piece
alapakala@quokk.au · -9 pts · 1d
Then why did they rename the Gulf of Mexico and Lake Ontario‽
bold_atlas@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 1d
They've not been renamed. Trump proclaimed it from his ass and twelve people on earth with access to a popular driving app accepted it and changed the names on the said app.
SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml · 13 pts · 1d
Renaming bodies of water isn't balkanization either...
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 9h
"Ahhh yes everyone! Who remembers when the Slovenians, Serbians, and Croations renamed the Mediterranean Sea!? Clearly is a necessary step of Balkinization.... WAYMENT!"
JGrffn@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1d
Quokka@quokk.au · 9 pts · 1d
Wait are we all meant to be pro-US?
SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml · 47 pts · 1d
Karl Marx was alive during the civil war. We know what he and his fellow communists thought about it. In fact, some of his fellow Communists were Forty-Eighters: German Radicals who were exiled after the failed revolutions of 1848, many of whom fought in the civil war.
One of them was August Willich, an ardent Communist who thought Marx of all people was too conservative. A "Tankie" of his day.
The German Communists, like Willich, who fought in the American Civil War believed that the war against slavery, and in the side of the Union, was a Social Revolution against the reactionary landed gentry of the south.
Many Forty-Eighters settled in Southwest, Ohio. If you go to the rapidly gentrifying Cincinnati neighborhood of Over The Rhine, it's called that because it was originally made up of forty-eighter German immigrants, who became active participants in the underground railroad, and helped set up social programs to educate freed slaves, and provide them with housing and such.
So the only person lacking critical thinking here is you OP. You've made up a guy in your head, to get mad at.
Godric@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 22h
Oh friend, you have this wrong, I agree 100%, sorry for not spelling it out! This meme is about the blind modern day teamist support for any "anti-west" regime, no matter how vile.
AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 19h
So why are you listening unquestioningly to team pedophile and team genocide?
m0stlyharmless@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 6h
What? Ukraine? What are you talking about?
AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 5h
You know the same people that support pedophilia and genocide and manufacturing your news. They define what you see as "vile" and why we "vileness supporters" must be demonized and trolled. For purity of thought and spirit. For the liberal world order which preaches that we should accept different people, different cultures, different viewpoints. Except the vile ones of course, the impure ones. The many Hitlers of this world. As dictated by your masters who practice pedophilia and genocide.
It's not going to get much clearer than that. Because the sickness in your heads just doesn't make much sense. That's what you allowed yourself to become.
m0stlyharmless@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 3h
What conclusion am I supposed to draw from this? Am I supposed to now be sympathetic to Russia because of the issues with corporate American media? You are making wild assumptions of where I get my information from and what my views are.
I have disdain for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine just as I have disdain for Israel’s treatment of Palestine and the United States’ enablement of this.
Maybe you didn’t realize this, but the very same people withholding the full release of the Epstein files and allowing so many to skirt accountability for their horrible crimes are not exactly friendly to Ukraine.
No amount of bloviating about how supposedly unfairly the media treats figures like Putin and Trump is going to get me to support their expansionistic endeavors and immoral wars.
These vile, expansionistic behaviors are not simply different people with different viewpoints. The purveyors of these actions and their supporters are owed no tolerance.
AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 2h
No you do not. You're lying.
You clearly support coups and interventions in sovereign nations to overthrow their democratic government. Even Ukrainian courts have ruled that the Euromaidan massacre was perpetrated by far right (swoboda / nazi) elements. It's all documented and historical facts.
And you cannot know the historical facts and then deny that you are on team pedophilia. Because you're repeating all the talking points of the fascist pedophile team. From Bush in 2008 to Obama to Trump and Biden, the US strategy was long set for Ukraine and Georgia. You just choose not to listen to facts or do the work yourself of looking them up and instead repeat the hegemonic talking points.
That's you! A goon who does not care when a nation is manipulated, democratic governments are toppled and people massacred! You say you don't support imperialism but that is what you're doing right here! By denying simple historical facts!
And you call us "vile" lol. And you know what is funny? We don't even really support Russia! It's more like a default opposition to you because of your lies and hate and aggression and bloodlust and warmongering. In your arrogance you want to expand your "liberal world order" all around the world. I oppose that, but I don't support Putin.
You however are team pedophile and team genocide.
m0stlyharmless@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 1h
If you have to assert that you know my position better than I do, you’re losing the argument.
It’s honestly really messed up of you to say that those who disagree with you are on “team pedophile.”
Me expressing that I have disdain both for what Israel and the US are doing with Palestine and what Russia is doing with Ukraine shouldn’t be controversial. It shouldn’t be getting you this worked up.
I will not be engaging with any of your inane, unsourced ramblings because you are not engaging in this conversation with respect and a genuine desire to understand. Your staggering arrogance prevents you from genuinely comprehending my position since you’re clearly more interested claiming that I’m somehow lying about my genuine views.
Nothing that you wrote accurately describes my viewpoints. It’s pathetic that you have to craft a fiction about my views in order to feel better about yourself.
It’s pretty clear that people are not being unfair to you in other interactions. You lead with being antagonistic and insulting and profoundly fail to genuinely engage with the conversation. Instead, you craft a fiction of what you wish my views are so you can tear that down instead. You demonstrate a profound lack of social skills and emotional intelligence.
Do better, and for your own sake, I sure hope you don’t go accusing people of being on “team pedophile” in person. It won’t go well for you.
SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml · -2 pts · 15h
Don't talk down to me. You made up a guy to get mad at. There is no human being on earth who holds the position you claim "Tankies" hold.
Delete this post.
Godric@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 11h
Nah, this meme is about the Russia-supporting dorks we see so much of. You don't want to see more jokes about losers who twist themselves into intellectually and morally bankrupt shapes to defend authoritarianism, block button's right there, because I'm gonna keep clowning on em :)
AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 8h
You're not clowning, you're trolling and spreading lies and misinformation about people and disrupting discourse.
Huh maybe that is what it is. As a liberal in recent years the outlets for hate have become increasingly policed. You can't make jokes about LGBTQ or disabled or women or even religious people any more. But you people still feel that hate, that strong desire to hate on people, but now it needs new outlets since the familiar ones are policed. So your "clowning" needs new targets, any target really. I think I'm onto something here.
It's like you people need to shit badly, and are running down the street and looking for any excuse to find someone "vile" to shit on. You just can't function differently. So to you the need to shit is just so much more important than arguing based on logic or truth or facts or being polite to people who think differently. It's just that everything turns into shit in your head and your mouth is like an asshole with verbal diarrhea.
Thank you so much you helped me tremendously to understand people with your kind of problem.
Godric@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 6h
AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 5h
Right. A false appeal to my mental health. That's not ableist at all.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · -1 pts · 14h
We met different people then
FunkyStuff@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 7h
Can you link to a post or comment from a communist who supports the confederates?
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · -3 pts · 6h
Do you think i save a link for every thing i see and interact with online?
FunkyStuff@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 4h
What you're talking about is pretty remarkable, sorry for asking for evidence.
SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 5h
So you're a liar, Gotcha.
OwOarchist@pawb.social · 9 pts · 9h
lol, modern tankies have nothing to do with Marx.
alapakala@quokk.au · -2 pts · 1d
I am not OP but a Black anarchist vanguard.
I wouldn't mention the latter occasionally because you're still using lemmy, so you can't see my «Politics» label.
I sat down to review all your historical assertions without a single citation. Meaning, I won't cite back if you don't.
Are there Achtundvierziger today, or similar vanguard parties?
Godric maybe projecting the trends a sees from camp threadiverse comments & posts, but do we even have a contemporary vanguard party doing praxis? PSL legitimately doesn't count, so if you bring them as an example, we have nothing further to discuss. You can also work with Godric to end campist rhetorizing moving forward. Whenever you both see campism, hold them accountable. I believe all of us🧵 want to end campism. I in particularly want to see Dengism邓理论 gone forever.
Be aware that I use this instance exactly because I have given up on 习
. So honestly don't bring it up.
I am open for anything else.
SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml · 16 pts · 1d
Yeah, what in the ever living fuck are you talking about? This AI listicle-ass comment is genuinely illegible to me. I don't understand what you're trying to say
alapakala@quokk.au · -5 pts · 1d
You've never seen an ordered list?
Want me to essay it?
Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml · 13 pts · 1d
The ordered list in that comment serves no purpose, as the items are not even properly grouped. It just hurts readability.
alapakala@quokk.au · -4 pts · 23h
They are grouped by topics 1 respondent, 2 politics, 3 literacy confirmation, 4 thesis, 5 warning, 6 intersection check, 7 commentary, 8 openness to dialogue
Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml · 9 pts · 22h
So, at the very least:
alapakala@quokk.au · -2 pts · 20h
1 differentiates from op, 2 outlines my politics which may also differ from op. Continued sentences is something everyone does, no?
I can def. combine4&5, but will SpookyBogMonster keep quiet about point 4 if 5 is the only choice?
6&7 need to be separated, as 6 is my intersection for Godric’s plea to end campist rhetorics, not my personal antidengist praxis.
whence?
brevity, citation, referencing, value, formatting, etc..
I’ll edit an essay format you then.
Machinist@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 8h
I totally skimmed what you had written as it was pretty inchoherent. If your politics have become so esoteric that Lemmy users can't parse them, that's a 'you' problem and you might want to examine it.
Like, the barrier to entry of Lemmy filters users here such that: most people here tend to have above average intelligence and reading comprehension.
So, you're either posting AI crap, or have gotten so twisted on some kind of propaganda that you can't meaningfully comminciate with others. If you're actually human you shoild probably unplug from your political ideology source and talk to an old wise hippy or something.
DarkCloud@lemmy.world · -4 pts · 1d
A lot of people in the west think that Communists/Socialists are all leftwing, when there's plenty of conservative traditionalist Communists.
There just more modern and outside the us, in places like China, Africa, Asia, and South America.
audrbox@lemmy.blahaj.zone · -8 pts · 11h
Y'all really can't help yourselves but to come into every anti-tankie post in the fediverse to call the OP stupid, huh?
SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml · 9 pts · 7h
When you make stupid posts, people are gonna think you're fucking stupid
ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 11h
There's folk who can't help but make anti-tankie posts in the fediverse, which specifically and directly are requests for that kind of responsive content.
audrbox@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 34m
It could also be them making fun of you for having a goofy and ignorant worldview, in which case constantly swarming the comments with r/atheism style pseudo-intellectual groupthink is... a choice
Mandarbmax@lemmy.world · 29 pts · 1d
Don't forget how they will also criticize western leftists and progressives endlessly for not being perfect and not even mention the right wing or non-western dictators. Bernie Sanders and AOC are apparently basically Nazis but Stalin was fiiiiine and who even cares about keeping fascists out of power.
stepan@lemmy.ca · 10 pts · 1d
Obligatory fuck the USSR, rest in piss
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 9h
ok... but why fuck the USSR?
Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml · -1 pts · 1d
Europe will never forgive the USSR for things like the 8-hour working day, women's rights, fighting against colonialism (including Germany and Japan, but also including many other places, like Vietnam, Mozambique, Korea, etc.), massively improving life expectancy and education, guaranteed housing, and otherwise improving workers' living conditions.
stenAanden@feddit.dk · 11 pts · 18h
We didn't rely on the USSR for the 8-hour working day or women’s rights
SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 5h
The presence of the USSR absolutely caused capitalist countries to make concessions on those things.
Further, who were the people in those respective countries who fight for those things? By and large, Communists
Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1m
You did rely on the RSFSR for the 8-hour working day, to be precise, but, for example, the criminalisation of marital SA was first done in the USSR.
And yes, your empire did internally justify improving workers' living conditions by the fact that it would reduce communist support. This includes the 8-hour working day, which only started being a thing after the bolsheviks set it up.
godsammitdam@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 1d
Don't forget how the idea of anti-authoritarianism is just reactionary and therefore can be hand-waved away. Dictatorships are cool as long as they align with the "correct" principles.
https://lemmy.today/comment/26047567
jbunnie@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 1d
I've said this in another comment, so likewise I'll preface that I'm not from the US so I use liberal as in classical liberalism, but under a materialist interpretation that I'm prone to agree with, liberalism is a bourgeois conservative ideology, thus a liberal is inherently in favor of the status quo and capitalism. So really, it's not about perfection, but rather an irreconcilable difference, or a contradiction, if you will. This is not to say that progressive liberals/social democrats can't enact meaningful material reforms, but usually not without confounding factors.
As for excusing Stalin and dismissing the opposition from progressives against the real threat of the far right, can't say I'm fond of the tribalism so common, but not exclusively, with MLs either.
DarkCloud@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 1d
Yes, OUTSIDE of the western bubble, the concept of right wing communists is pretty common. But as soon as westerners see it they're like "Why are you Communist AND criticizing the progressive left?"
Welcome to your first encounter with right/conservative/traditionalist or Nationalist Communism.
This is not a difficult thing to grasp:
Communism/Socialism are ECONOMIC as well as political philosophies. So you can have ECONOMIC views that can have either left or right POLITICAL philosophies attached.
Understand?
yogurt@lemmy.world · 27 pts · 22h
The military bases doing the imperialism are named after those guys and what the Confederacy wanted to do if they won the war was take over Cuba and Venezuela and rename the Gulf of Mexico the American Sea. America is what happens when you aren't a tankie and quit Reconstruction.
yellow Michael Parenti about critical support:
Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 27 pts · 1d
What liberals think tankies think:
What tankies actually think:
radio_free_asgarthr@lemmy.ml · 11 pts · 1d
Johnson was able to reintegrate the planters into the political establishment. Unfortunately, John Wilkes Booth won.
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 8h
ya that Neo Slavery video by knowing better helped to open my eyes as to just how badly the americans luuuived slavery and racism truthfully. Same tjing with 'Some More News' video about 'Systematic Racism Doesnt Exist'
Very few textbooks cover this topic of what happened to Black and Indigenois people from 1867-1968 and even after that.
m0stlyharmless@lemmy.zip · -2 pts · 6h
The OP is definitely sarcastic. It’s very clearly mocking people who simp for countries like Russia simply because of their adversarial relationship with the United States. I have never once seen a liberal sincerely assert that tankies like The Confederacy.
abc@suppo.fi · -2 pts · 8h
What tankies actually think:
Wait, why the fuck should anyone care what tankies think?
late_pessimistic@slrpnk.net · 0 pts · 8h
OBVIOUSLY we should care because it's the internet and loud minorities dominate here, skewing our perception of reality and what political opinions are worth debating today, despite being fringe and unfeasible IRL /s
Dogyote@slrpnk.net · 20 pts · 1d
This meme is just libel. There's no way a tankie would support the Confederacy
m532@lemmy.ml · 15 pts · 1d
Zionazis like godric are experts in libel
Godric@lemmy.world · -7 pts · 1d
One would think so, but then we see the wild mental gymnastics going on to defend Russia. Pretty wild stuff!
Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1d
I have seen more wild mental gymnastics from people defending the most prolific invader in the world (i.e. NATO) and claims that the rest of the world is bad for defending itself against it.
On that note, what do you think a state should do when the most prolific invader in the world starts amassing troops on its borders (or otherwise in position to attack, like with Iran), especially after said invader carries out a coup against a neighbouring state?
OwOarchist@pawb.social · 4 pts · 9h
So, let me guess -- the invasion and occupation of Ukraine is a defensive action then?
kolmaskommentoija@sopuli.xyz · -2 pts · 18h
You do know NATO is a defensive alliance, right? The USA doing invading with some allies is not the same as NATO doing it.
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 8h
are you OK? You do know that nato funded and sent mercenaries to conduct the coup of Ukraine right?
They tried the same thing with Afghanistan but the people there werent having anyof that.
ALSO nato has been involved in more aggressive military operations than defensive ones since its conception.
Im not saying the Russians are heroes or anything Im just givknf you the facts lol
Simon_Shitewood@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 8h
Quick question: can you tell me what defensive operations NATO has performed? Like stuff it did in its own countries? This isn't a trick question, there are answers.
Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 4m
So defensive that they can't stop invading everywhere?
The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were such defensive actions, and so is the genocide of Palestine, according to you.
Name a single NATO state that did not participate in either of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Include Ukraine as a "NATO state".
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 8h
.... so you are a zionist?!
And youre insulting tankies?! You are a tankie!
radio_free_asgarthr@lemmy.ml · 16 pts · 1d
hahaha, HaHaHa, HAHAHA! The origin story for both the original Hexbear and Lemmygrad community is being banned from reddit for "promoting political violence" for John Brown memes and saying Sherman's march to the sea was good. Perfect case of projection.
More like 19th century liberals: "We have to find a proper compromise with the slavers. I hate all of these tankie
RussianUnion bots saying this is about slavery. We all know this is about states rights and freedom!"Godric@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 21h
Hey buddy, this isn't reddit, we can mention how John Brown is objectively a Saint in any religion that may exist!
This meme is about modern morons who defend anything "anti-west"!
radio_free_asgarthr@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 6h
So are Hexbear and Lemmygrad not tankies? What tankies are you talking about that advocates for bad positions and are opposed to Hexbear and Lemmygrad or any other left instance on the Fediverse?
culprit@lemmy.ml · -4 pts · 11h
Liberal zionist hasbara being like "opposition to Epstein Fury is only for tankie anti-west morons".
Arcanepotato@crazypeople.online · 13 pts · 1d
I don't get it.
AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip · 54 pts · 1d
Lemmy.ml users in particular will defend fucking ANYTHING done in opposition to The West. Like they love to support Russia against Ukraine.
Azazel@lemmy.ml · 34 pts · 1d
I was gonna try to defend my comrades for not being that brain dead then I saw the only other Lemmy.ml guy on this thread actively proving your point lmao
InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
Its okay if you still want to. I find that they have a point in their grievances or pointing out how we in the west often fail at living up to our own proposed values of democracy and equality. I do get why they feel so strongly that they push to take it all, but the all or nothing is often counter productive I feel. Particularly given how much work they need to do with the general public that is not ready for some topics.
brave_lemmywinks@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 1d
I stopped replying to one of them when they denied the holodomor or the chinese famine.
Its quite disheartening that we can't even agree on a common reality.
AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 1d
I've been called all sorts of names just for asking for real evidence instead of flimsy suggestive bullshit. It took SO much pressing to get anything at all on the Ukrainian Nazi line they love so much, and I got SO much hostility for it.
OwOarchist@pawb.social · 1 pts · 9h
Eh, I've seen enough to agree that some elements within Ukraine and the Ukrainian military are using Nazi-associated symbols. But then again, so are some of the people invading Ukraine. And I don't really begrudge Ukraine for thinking that repelling an ongoing invasion and occupation is a more urgent problem than a few Nazi nutjobs on their own side. (Honestly, you'd be hard-pressed to find any military anywhere that doesn't have Nazi nutjobs in it. Military service is very attractive to that type of person.)
AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 4h
Yeah, that was kinda my takeaway when I finally got decent info. The Nazi groups seem to be getting big enough to be legitimately problematic, but like you said, I can't entirely blame Ukraine for focusing on bigger problems for now, especially when those factions are willing to help defend the country. It's kind of a cursed bargain, but it's not like they have better options right now.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1d
Propaganda will do that. I've never met a single communist who denied that there was a major famine in China. The problem is that liberals seem to think Mao invented famine, when in fact China was experiencing famines every 2 to 4 years for over a century by the time the communists came to power. They had a theory for how to address the cycle of famines and increase food surplus, and their theory failed. But liberals think that Mao deliberately killed millions of people because he was an evil dictator instead of acknowledging the reality that Mao was leader of a massive government and they all failed as an organization by producing the conditions for famine. The context is also lost that eventually the Chinese revolution did end the cycle of famines permanently, and they were trying to solve it without any help from Western agriculture because the West was too busy protecting the fascist dictator that was holed up in Taiwan who was actively mass murdering and imprisoning political dissidents.
The Holodomor is another one of those things propaganda skews and breaks our ability to agree to a shared reality on. I have never met a single communist that denies that there was a famine and that many people died. What they often cite, which liberals can't reconcile, is that the famine affected many more populations than just the people who were supposedly targeted and that research into the incident shows that the crop yield was severely negatively impacted by weather and made worse by not just bad decision making but also bad decision making that was in part driven by punitive thinking. The famine happened, but propaganda would have us believe that the famine was unquestionably a deliberate attempt at ethnic cleansing or genocide, when the evidence seems to be far more in support of a natural famine made worse by poor management with an added dose of maliciousness that ultimately rolls up to bad management.
In contrast, you don't seem to have any problem with most Westerners having never even heard of the famines that were in fact deliberately caused by the West and for which the only explanation is the active choice of making a colonized population suffer.
GreenBeard@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 1d
Seriously. Was Holodomor a deliberate genocide? This is the hill you're going to die on? Yes, the famine affected a lot of people, but we all know which people were least affected and it wasn't the Ukrainians who were trying to actually grow the food. Much like the Irish Famine was only a tragic genocide because the British overlords wouldn't put up with reducing their own take. The blight was real, but the decimation was pure unjustified cruelty.
I'm a leftist, but I'm an honest one. We gain nothing by denying the past and refusing to learn from it. It does a disservice to us all to hide the fact that old ethnic and cultural violence behind a window dressing of systemic failure. Systemic bigotry is still bigotry.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 1d
The kazhaks lost more people per capita than Ukraine did. Major non-Ukrainian Russian populations centers suffered equally or very nearly as much as Ukraine did.
So you may think you're an honest leftist, but you might not be. As an honest leftist myself, I recognize that the Soviet government made tragic decisions, many of them punitive, none of them directed at ethnic cleansing, because the Soviet Union did not have an analysis that included specific ethnicities being material to their political goals as ethnicities. They understood, documented, wrote about, discussed, debated, legislated, and enforced the exact opposite of ethnic cleansing constantly. Yes, Ukranian suffered a lot through the transition to collectivized agriculture, more than most. But that's because the majority of Ukranian peasants were freeholders of land, whereas the majority of Russian peasants were serfs. As freeholders, they would lose their claim to their farms. Serfs would suffer no such loss. This was structural. Russian peasants weren't targeted for collectivization because under the Tsar they were already collectivized, whereas Ukranian peasants had private ownership of the land they worked.
Collectivization was not ethnic cleansing, the famine was not ethnically targeted, and the punitive actions of the Soviet Union were not ethnically motivated by an ethnic strategy of ethnic supremacy.
That's honesty. Honesty is doing the reading, doing the research, and not discarding all the evidence that contradicts the obviously contrived narrative. Yes there was a famine. Yes it killed more Ukranians in absolute numbers. Yes the Soviet leadership made deliberate decisions that were intended to punish people who were Ukranians. No it wasn't because they were Ukranian, no it wasn't because the Soviet leadership thought that ethnic cleansing would achieve their intended goals, no it's not because the Soviet leadership decided to artificially starve all of those people out of malice or ethnic supremacy.
GreenBeard@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 9h
Yes and proportionally the Romani were murdered by the Nazis at a higher rate than the Jews, but we don't think of it as the Romani Holocaust. The Russians used a cannon to swat flies and murdered millions and you're going to carry water for them based on official rationalizations? You sound like an American trying to justify racial red-lining.
Why don't you take a knee and admit you don't understand the situation and the context. At the end of the day, Soviet institutions were run by people, people with conditioned biases and baggage. I might have some sympathy for their ideological goals, but I will not overlook their atrocities. The Russians were ruled by monsters then, just like they are ruled by monsters now and the window dressing of their official ideology makes little difference.
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 8h
...Youve just proven how thoroughly propagandized you are. loool. nato has always wanted you to remember the Holocaust as 'a jEwS oNlY' genocide cause they have wanted and have clearly succeeded, in convincing you that Isntreal has a right to exist cause of the Holocaust lol.
Thats why globally most Holocaust museums and even synagogues are run by fanatical zionists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPostCdgViI&t=2278s&pp=ygUodGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gZ2xvYmFsIHJpc2UgaW4gYW50aSBzZW1pdGlzbQ%3D%3D , .... https://tariqacknickulous.substack.com/p/99-of-jewish-american-organizations nato won. ANd people like you continue and continue to prove that theyve won the information war.
👏🏼👏🏽👏🏿Give yourself an applaid for being so thoroughly fooled anout the Holocaust AND the Sovoet Famine of 1932 you are. Nicely done 'lEfTiSt' . Nicely done 🥳👏🏿👏🏾👏🏽
Lol try picking up a book or looking up a study for once in your life 😂🤣🤭
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 8h
Russians, AND Ukranians …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho&pp=ygUVaG9sb2RvbW9yIGJhZGVtcGFuYWRh, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L3d0GJlzgc&pp=ygUVaG9sb2RvbW9yIGJhZGVtcGFuYWRh , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM&pp=ygUjVGhlIHNvdmlldCBmYW1pbmUgbWFyeGlzb
ACKSHUALLY the Kazakhs were the most affected by the Famine of 1932 in a per capita basis.
GreenBeard@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 8h
And as I said elsewhere, technically the Romani were murdered at a higher rate than the Jews by the Nazis. That's not the "gotcha" you think it is.
DarkCloud@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
Do you have a link to tankies denying there was an unwanted famine?
Holodomor was an unwanted famine that was redurected (food taken from farmers). Later wider famines were made worse mostly by Lysenkoism. A con-job which effected Russia and China.
Yet Communism is compared to Nazi? That's what's ridiculous liberal/right propaganda.
What happened is much more forgivable (although still regrettable) than what say the millions killed by the East India companies through intentional famines under Capitalism (done for profit), or the hundreds of millions in war dead from Capitalism in the past 30 years.
That's much more recent, but some redirected famine from the 1930s keeps coming up when talk of Socialism makes wealthy liberals a little too uncomfortable.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 1d
What is an "unwanted famine"? Nobody wanted a famine. Lysenko was wrong, and the government backed him because they didn't know he was wrong. It was a mistake, not a deliberate strategem to harm people.
DarkCloud@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 23h
Exactly.
OwOarchist@pawb.social · 0 pts · 9h
That's ... maybe not quite the flex you think it is.
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 8h
If its nit quite thr flex that they think it is please explain how ? (you wont be able to but please go right on ahead 🍿🤭)
Ill just say now that your argument is that Slavic people and Chinese people are not allowed to be dumb once in a while so good lucck arguing that seeing as how they are humans. Go ahead. The floor is yours ....
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 21h
Both the Holodomor and Chinese famine were caused by politicians that ignore actual agrarian science from actual farmers with actual farming experience. The bad yield was caused precisely by this ignoring of proven science. And the Holodomor had been especially bad for Ukraine because it was the USSR's bread basket because the Soviet authorities extracted as much food as possible, mirroring the Great Famine in Ireland when the British imperialists exported food from Ireland despite the massive starvation.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 15h
The Chinese failure of agriculture was under embargo from the West's proven science and supply chains. They were forced to come up with their own solutions from scratch from a starting position that was far far behind the rest of the world.
Lysenko was operating in a world where the West had developed the theory of the gene but not yet proven the gene existed and the West immediately developed it into eugenics from its racist tyrannical fascist politics, and Lysenko and the politicians were reacting to that. While Europeans were going around saying "genetics is real therefore we should kill all the poors and the browns before they taint our bloodline", the Soviets were saying "if we improve social conditions then people will heal for generations to come".
I know we are literally awash in comic book level propaganda where the evil Soviets were dastardly lying to everyone for power and control, but if you actually read the history, the narratives we have been fed start to look a lot like outright lies.
100% if they had followed the science they would have done better, but science is not apolitical, research on heredity especially so, and without any molecular basis for the theory of genetics, it looks a lot like master race politics.
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 8h
THANK YOU!
Chinese people and Slavic peoole arent geniuses even when they work together collectively. They make stupid decisions just like you and me and other Westerners do too. Honestly being a genius is like a 1 in a milloon thing whether youre a westerner , Chinese,, Slavic or whatever. YOU WILL MAKE MISTAKES. THEY MADE MISTAKES.
They made the stupid decisions to not save food from the Ukraine and to not expect a drought in the Ukraine in 1932
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho&pp=ygUVaG9sb2RvbW9yIGJhZGVtcGFuYWRh, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L3d0GJlzgc&pp=ygUVaG9sb2RvbW9yIGJhZGVtcGFuYWRh , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM&pp=ygUjVGhlIHNvdmlldCBmYW1pbmUgbWFyeGlzb (YES the Soviets were stupid and human just like you and I)
And then they made the stupid decision to. believe that discrediting rich farmers with experience in China when they shoild have listened to some of their advice when it xame to growing and storing certain grains and livestocks. (YES the CHinese were stupid and humans just like you and I)
They DID learn from those mistakes. There was never anither recorded famine in the USSR after 1932.(well TECHNICALLY there was a famine when the nazis invaded BUT that was cause there were like 10 million nazi soldiers burning land and killing livestock accross western USSR. but ya you get my point). And there was never another recorded famine in CHina until Dengism became more popular.
In fact Dengism is a form of capitalism and the BNPL statistics prove this. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GCf1obSZ334&pp=ygUPYnVyeWluZyBkZW5naXNt
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 15h
Farmer knowledge and know how wasn't embargoed by the West. Lysenko and Mao were just idiots who didn't listen to experts despite warnings. Also, people already knew about genetic inheritance long before the 20th century, even if DNA wasn't discovered yet. You are just white washing the truth.
Least obvious and prepared tankie shill answer.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 14h
Yes, argicultural technology was absolutely embargoed from China by the West. What world do you live in? The Foreign Assets Control Act was relatively comprehensive and then a year later the "UN" adopted a total collective embargo.
It wasn't embargoed from the USSR. But that was before the Green Revolution anyway. Everyone in the world was heavily subject to crop failures, like the 50% crop failure in the US Dust Bowl in the 30s. It's not like there was a known good recipe to solving famine cycles during the first 2 decades of the Russian revolution.
The idea that Mao was an idiot is neither borne by the evidence nor useful as an explanation. He was clearly effective for long periods of time for highly complex problem spaces. But he made a similar class of mistakes to the mistakes that the USSR did in agriculture. Mistakes that they eventually corrected.
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 8h
Yup. About the Soviet Famine of 1932 that killed Kazakhs, AND Souther Russians, AND Ukranians ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho&pp=ygUVaG9sb2RvbW9yIGJhZGVtcGFuYWRh, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L3d0GJlzgc&pp=ygUVaG9sb2RvbW9yIGJhZGVtcGFuYWRh , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM&pp=ygUjVGhlIHNvdmlldCBmYW1pbmUgbWFyeGlzbSBleHBsYWluZWQ%3D
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 8h
Ah so about the 'hOlOdOmOr'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho&pp=ygUVaG9sb2RvbW9yIGJhZGVtcGFuYWRh, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L3d0GJlzgc&pp=ygUVaG9sb2RvbW9yIGJhZGVtcGFuYWRh , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM&pp=ygUjVGhlIHNvdmlldCBmYW1pbmUgbWFyeGlzbSBleHBsYWluZWQ%3D
crusa187@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 1d
As a .ml user, I hereby denounce the states’ rights to own slaves for which this war was fought. The confederates were not fighting against “the west”, they were fighting for racism and bigotry.
However, I do offer critical support to Hasan Piker, and think Americans should take a long hard look at foreign policy which led to the 9/11 attack. It’s the worst it’s ever been now, giving taxpayer dollars to Israel for them to purchase American politicians and order them to bankroll and provide cover for ongoing genocide and destabilization of the region so that Israel can steal more land. Like owning slaves, rank imperialism and land theft is wrong, especially post-globalization.
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 8h
hasan piker has become nothing more than a Liberal zionist and BadEmpanada has been able to provee that like twice.
hasan himself proved that when he endorsed fucking brad lander of all people....wtf?!
tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 1d
Also any time you say NK is a dictatorship they come out of the basement to say how awesome it is.
Arcanepotato@crazypeople.online · 3 pts · 1d
I think this explanation makes the meme even more confusing 😭
AnyOldName3@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 1d
The Confederacy was fighting against the United States. Under tankie logic, that must mean that they're virtuous and attempting to build communism. In reality, they were fighting to preserve chattel slavery.
Arcanepotato@crazypeople.online · 15 pts · 1d
Okay but Lenin considered the US Civil to be good actually
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/aug/20.htm
ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 1d
Yes. But these topics about tankies are about reinforcing 'us/them' rationalizations for those who already have their prejudice. The comments here certainly do.
By providing a critical thinking from Lenin, you instead become the tankie, and therefore become incapable of critical thinking, per the meme. Therefore anything Lenin might've said or written can just be dismissed.
And so the tankie can be mocked as a confederate chud nonetheless.
Arcanepotato@crazypeople.online · 2 pts · 1d
I had to read this a few times because I am high and thought you were being serious 😭
I don't want to people to think I'm knowledgeable or well read or anything I just googled it because I wasn't sure what the meme was trying to say.
Rothe@piefed.social · -1 pts · 1d
And? You seem to be under the delusion that tankies have actually read anything by their heroes.
GreenBeard@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 1d
I think you're mistaking the lunatic left for the lunatic right. The left usually did their homework at least. Better than the right who refuse to acknowledge what they call "Capitalism" has nothing to do with the foundational principles of the theory.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 1d
This is a straw man. Tankie logic clearly understands the concept of factions and factional disputes within a larger system. The US had two major bourgeois factions within it - agrarian raw materials producers/merchants and industrialists. These two factions were fighting for their faction's existence and ultimately the power to dominate their colonized subjects in the way that seemed most beneficial to their faction.
Gormadt@slrpnk.net · -1 pts · 1d
Jaderick@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 1d
If you aren’t American: Depicted are American civil war reenactors with the flag of the Confederacy which seceded from the Union of the United States in the 19th century due to built up tensions regarding slavery. The Confederacy were ultimately fighting to keep slavery as a government institution.
The target of the joke are tankies (described briskly above), which we will see on Lemmy, often see any action taken against the US or the EU (the West) as praiseworthy, blatantly disregarding or downplaying equivalent or worse actions from non-western nations.
The subversion of expectation here is that a tankie would see the pro-slavery Confederacy as praiseworthy because they’re fighting the US government, despite the Confederacy’s blatantly immoral cause.
Caveat - I say this with bias as someone explicitly against authoritarian bootlickers, like tankies.
Arcanepotato@crazypeople.online · 7 pts · 1d
Thank you for your efforts, I really do appreciate it. It makes discussion a lot more accessable to people who do not know the details of US history. I am not american myself but unfortunately I have family who live in Kennesaw. I hope that's self explanatory 🥲
I guess the joke doesn't make sense because Lenin thought it was based that the civil war happened because slavery is wack.
Rothe@piefed.social · -1 pts · 1d
You need to tell that to the tankies. We already know it here. They are the ones having problems understanding that.
Arcanepotato@crazypeople.online · 3 pts · 1d
Sorry tell the tankies what?
Rothe@piefed.social · 0 pts · 1d
Tankies: "Any enemy of the US is my ally".
It is a zero sum game for them. They are incapable of thinking that while the US sucks, their enemies can also suck.
frisbird@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 1d
Strawman. Tankies literally have a phrase for this. It's called "critical support", which means supporting the efforts of anti-imperialism while reserving the right to criticize without that critique rising to the level of reversing the support for the anti-imperialist action
GreenBeard@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 1d
Who is "them" exactly here? Are you listening to teenagers on TikTok and extrapolating a whole ideology here? Tankies aren't anti-American by definition. Someone is feeding you some pretty twisted propaganda.
SCmSTR@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1d
I'm not entering this argument, but I can see how "my enemy's enemy is my friend" may be a thought process there.
AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 1d
Yeah, in a vacuum, sounds like a solid idea. Russia isn't that friend, though.
DarkCloud@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1d
I think the argument is:
It's super weird when Liberals forget about Iraq, Afghanistan, Indigenous Genocides, Racial Profiling and the war on terror, Gitmo, Palestine, and Slavery all at once.
"Oh but in the past China and Russia had famines".
They don't realize they're effected by 100 years of conservative messaging.
Godric@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 1d
That is the thought process being mocked, yes
thethrilloftime69@feddit.online · 2 pts · 1d
I mean I kinda get it. The biggest obstacle to World Peace today is the US. So you could make the argument that anything that opposes US Hegemony gets us closer to world peace. Idk that I would go so far as to "support Russia" but I understand the logic.
GreenBeard@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 1d
Please don't defend them. These kinds of arguments lack any kind of deeper thought or nuance. It's literally just trolling and straw-men. Do not feed the trolls.
thethrilloftime69@feddit.online · 7 pts · 1d
I mean that's what Zionists say about Pro Palestine group. That's what Americans said about resistance groups in the middle east. That's what Americans said about the Natives.
I just disagree with this entire philosophy. You should be able understand an argument you disagree with.
GreenBeard@lemmy.ca · -2 pts · 1d
I didn't say don't understand them, I'm saying they're literally not thinking that deeply about it. They want to get a rise out of you and someone showed them they can do that by opening with a straw-man like this. By deliberately misrepresenting what "Tankie" means they can completely disarm it and force you to defend a position they chose, which they know is indefensible. It's pure rhetorical strategy, they don't actually know or care what a Tankie thinks. They're trying to make the word mean something it never has and never should mean. Is it possible someone on their side has done some work to rationalize their twisted interpretation. That rationalization is usually paper thin and almost no one on their side knows or cares about it besides its usefulness as a tactical fallback. They don't believe any of this, its a rhetorical game and the point is their nihilistic disregard for consequences.
thethrilloftime69@feddit.online · 6 pts · 1d
That sounds like a description of every troll. Tbh I keep hearing tankie thrown around, but I've never had the conversations people who complain about it have.
GreenBeard@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 1d
Tankie is a general term for someone who thinks there is a clear justification to use force or the threat of force to impose a socialist system on a state. The term originates with people who supported the USSR "Sending in the tanks" to annex other countries and crush dissent from people in their sphere. They are what people mean when they "If you go far enough left, you get your guns back." These days they tend to be a tiny minority within the rather small minority of actual leftists. They do exist, and some of them are pretty out there, but not the way the .ml crowd tends to characterize them. They're terrified of them, because in their heads the most terrifying thing in the world is a leftist that is willing to fight back, and they don't recognize anything that doesn't kill someone as "fighting."
Gormadt@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 1d
And sealioning, can't forget that.
Blocking them and moving on is usually the best option. They'll ruin your day given the chance.
Oh and if they violate the rules of where they're posting, report them before blocking.
Calfpupa@lemmy.ml · -3 pts · 1d
Because it doesn't make sense.
cantstopthesignal@sh.itjust.works · -10 pts · 1d
The kind of revolutionaries they support are morally bankrupt. Like Che Guevara was a complete dick who committed war crimes in order to help install an authoritarian regime in Cuba. Or how Mao got more people killed than anyone in human history and not just his enemies, his supporters too.
Arcanepotato@crazypeople.online · 6 pts · 1d
What was confusing was the example chosen because it is something Lenin had a position on. Which was the opposite of what was shown. I am coming to understand it's meant as an absurd example to criticize "tankies" but I guess this example only makes sense if you don't know that.
I'm also confused about the usage of critical support being contrasted to critical thinking because critical support means applying critical thinking to a situation instead of blanket support. But I guess if you aren't looking at something with the same values that can be hard to see.
Edit: used an abelist term without realizing it.
ParlimentOfDoom@piefed.zip · -2 pts · 1d
Lenin agreed with the union, because slavery is bad. Tankies, because they cherry pick the history they pay attention to would likely ignore that and cheer for the Confederacy. It's what they do. It's not that confusing.
Arcanepotato@crazypeople.online · 2 pts · 1d
I thought tankies was a rude name for Marxist Leninists? I couldn't tell if the meme was making fun of people who use the term tankie or Marxist Leninists which is why I said I didn't get it, but I get it now.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 13 pts · 1d
JasonDJ@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 1d
One of our biggest, and honestly most important, exports is entertainment. Movies. Books. Television.
Lots of those about WW2. Lots of different stories to tell there and make ourselves the hero.
Especially when most of the time spent between 1945 and 1994 was spent with the USA having a dick measuring contest against the USSR. And we've very much proven ourselves to be the biggest dicks.
Could you really blame Putin for his role in this information war, given this context?
Not saying he's right. Just saying he's justified. Tit for tat.
We didn't invent the printing press for sending greeting cards. We didn't even invent the printing press...but we sure make people think we did.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 9 pts · 1d
The biggest export is propaganda.
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 8h
80% of all Wermacht soldiers thst died in WWII died on the Eastern Front
ALSO the majoriity of japanese soldiers that died during WWII died in China.
😏
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 4h
Hell yeah
OwOarchist@pawb.social · 0 pts · 9h
Way off topic, lol.
abc@suppo.fi · -1 pts · 8h
Implying that the number of dead on your side is a good way to measure contribution to the war effort is the most communist thing I've read in a while.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 4h
The Soviets killed more Nazis than the rest of the allies combined. Problem with that statement?
abc@suppo.fi · 1 pts · 17m
No, that's much better.
FunkyStuff@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 7h
What else should count? If more Nazis died in the Eastern front than other fronts, it seems to imply the USSR did more of the job of winning the war than other countries.
abc@suppo.fi · 1 pts · 16m
I mean just the numbers don't mean much as absolute values. Sure, USSR did a lot to counter nazis, and should be praised for that, but to think that their contribution scales with the number of dead... that's the part that makes no sense.
Nazis and Russians died in huge numbers in the eastern front simply because there were so many of them on both sides.
Pistachio@lemmy.zip · -9 pts · 1d
Trash graphic. 49 year gap, 10 year gap, 11 year gap. Absolute trash.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 17h
Hahaha. I'm surprised only one of you got triggered.
Pistachio@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 13h
Truly! I defiantly thought I'd have the safety of numbers on this front lol
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 12h
I guess we've got some history enjoyers here 🤓
febra@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 9h
Yeah man shoot against tankies while your country is ruled by zionist pedophile warmongers.
epicstove@lemmy.ca · 10 pts · 8h
I feel like a massive portion of people are missing the point of this post and jump to the conclusion that OP is some Zionist uncle Sam loving conservative that hates anything slightly left of centre.
droans@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 7h
Nah, they didn't miss the point at all, they're just intentionally acting in bad faith.
radio_free_asgarthr@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 6h
Nah, your just missing the point that being able to say "America is somewhat bad" makes up for fully supporting all of the US's foreign policy positions. There must be genocide in Xinjiang because the fascist evangelical German that wrote a book about how cool the apocalypse will be because you get to watch all the Jews burn in a lake of fire said that it is a genocide. It is only half of why you have to hate the ICC because they err the other way by saying that Israel is committing genocide. So they are silent on the Chinese genocide while being wrong about the Palestinian "genocide".
droans@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 6h
Or maybe it's okay to call out bullshit on your own side?
America has committed a LOT of atrocities. Trail of Tears. Pine Ridge. Slavery for god's sake. Fuck, we invaded the wrong country after 9/11 and let Saudi get away with sponsoring it. Then we have the Monroe Doctrine and South America plus all the Middle Eastern governments that we overthrew. The nuking of Japan was the decision to save millions of soldiers at the expense of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Fewer lives, yes, but it's rather difficult to justify the murder of the innocent. We're propping up Israel and allowing them to commit atrocities against the Palestinians. At this point, the US and Israel are the only real parties in the way of a two-state solution. Hamas could easily be taken care of without the killing of Palestinians who just want to be safe and secure.
Die-hard tankies refuse to call out anything on their own side (or the enemy of their enemies) and that's the problem OP is bringing up. If that doesn't describe you, then great, I'm not talking about you. There's no good-faith way to support modern day Russia and the invasion of Ukraine.
radio_free_asgarthr@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 5h
No, it is not the unwillingness to call out infractions. It is more the extreme disproportionality of liberals. The invasion of Ukraine is such a historical evil that any explanation of it (outlawing of Russian in school and government documents, being worried about NATO expansion, etc.) is excusing the Putin Regime that does evil only because they like evil and have no other motivation than maximizing evil. So any Russian that isn't currently attempting to overthrow the government is an evil orc that deserves death.
But all of the wars of aggression and invasions the US made in the 21st century means that the US is slightly flawed and being too left or wanting to overthrow the government is too far. We need to hold our nose and vote for Democrats because they might make the invasions slightly more limited and be more polite while funding the Israeli genocide.
But that is actually the real issue that Liberals take issue with. Explaining that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil and that all of the US's wars of aggression makes it the worst state in the current world, rather than a flawed and imperfect democracy that should still be the model for the world is what makes one a tankie.
droans@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2h
At what point did I say anything resembling that? The war is an evil war and I cheer any Russian fighting against it but I don't believe it's "such a historical evil" nor do I believe that Russians deserve death just because they aren't fighting against it. Shit, if I believed that, I'd have to believe the same about a lot of people in the US, too, wouldn't I?
Did you not read what I wrote above or...?
Yes, it is, but probably not for the reasons you think. Revolutions rarely are successful, even if you win. They're usually coalitions of common enemies who rarely agree on what they want. They're often led by opportunistic figureheads who want to take advantage of the position. There will be tens of millions who die. I can't imagine any political belief can be worth that many lives.
The Declaration of Independence has been considered one of the most influential doctrines of all time for a good reason. There's a single sentence in it which I find rather relevant: "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
Would you not agree that there have been moments in the US history where, if progress continued, we'd be at a position that was acceptable to you? If so, you have to also believe that we can still get back to that place.
On top of all that... How much of the US do you think agree with your views? How are you going to experience long-term success with little buy-in?
Nah, that really does suck, I agree with you. But don't you think that replacing our FPTP method of electing politicians, reducing the power of the Executive branch, and adding much stronger guardrails, oversight, and penalties against corruption might be a more effective method to achieving your goals? Most people are in favor of these policies. Why do you claim you're willing to take up arms when you can't even knock on your neighbor's door?
I understand why Putin wants Ukraine. They have large mineral deposits which can help accelerate economic growth while their rich farmland can provide quite a bit of food for the people of Russia. I also know that these reasons aren't much different than those that America has fought for in wars during the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. Again, you can agree that both things are fucked.
Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 1d
Supporting reactionary uprisings is actually the liberal thing.
Case in point - all the clamouring for slaver rulers in Tibet.
stenAanden@feddit.dk · -5 pts · 18h
The Tibet thing is just CCP propaganda
Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 18h
Don't know what "CCP" is, but it's pretty silly how brazenly you ignore reality just because your masters told you that "Iraq has WMDs" again.
stenAanden@feddit.dk · -5 pts · 15h
CCP is the chinese communist party. Who brought up Iraq?!?!
Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 6m
Ah, so you misspelled "CPC" - "the Communist Party of China".
I mean, you keep uncritically believing what the people who sold you on Nayirah's testimony and Iraq's WMDs say about their enemies.
Godric@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 22h
Yep, that's the quote from every liberal: "Yay slavery"
-The average dipshit redcap uncle, and/or Tomorrow_Farewell
Sharkticon@lemmy.zip · 7 pts · 19h
I mean I don't know what you're trying to say here cuz yeah that's objectively correct. Liberals valued the concept of private property so incredibly highly that slavery was extended and preserved in most of the world when it didn't need to be. That is undeniably their legacy.
Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 22h
Considering how many liberals support things like returning slavery to Tibet, or enslaving Libya, or doing similar things to Syria, Palestine, Korea, Russia, Afghanistan, etc. they might as well be saying that.
Hell, you do support NATO attacking and subjugating the rest of the world, so why pretend as if I don't have any examples?
Speaking of examples, you haven't pointed out any socialists who supported the Confederacy at the time, nor any socialists who do now.
radio_free_asgarthr@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 23h
Tankie anthem that will get you banned from reddit and .world for promoting political violence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-jtYT5COvU
Godric@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 22h
Hellfire!I legitimately forgot what a banger that song is! Something I haven't heard in years, but somehow I know every line, hahahaha
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 10h
Imperlialism!
Etterra@discuss.online · 3 pts · 22h
They're technically correct. The British never stopped calling the American Revolution a rebellion; the difference is completely subjective. That said, fuck the Confederates, those bitches lost, so the leftovers need to suck it up and move on.
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 21h
ITT: It's better if USA balkanized
Gee, I wonder who are trying to advocate for this? Surely Russia and China who are attacking Ukraine and encroaching an entire body of ocean, respectively, aren't the ones with an army of online trolls who are promoting this.
dreamy@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 8 pts · 19h
"Everyone I don't agree with is a Russian bot" 🤡
You and this platform aren't as important as you think.
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 18h
*paid Russian shills and useful idiots want US to collapse to promote Russia and China own imperialism.
Happy?
Who cares about the platform? Unless you have superiority complex because you are speaking from well funded St Petersburg Research Institute, comrade?
BlackLaZoR@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 17h
Unfortunately USA works hard on the collapse on their own. 130% debt to GDP? WTF is this, Greek development strategy? On top of stupid trade wars and neglecting renewable energy sector...
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 17h
Yes Americans are doing it on their own, but the usual suspects are accelerating it through hybrid warfare for obvious reasons. The Far East will become vulnerable to Chinese domination and Europe will become more vulnerable to Russian aggression (although I think even after the conflict in Ukraine, Russia will become second to China).
BlackLaZoR@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 16h
Russian economy is fucked, they burned trade bridges left and right, sent their youth to die in meaningless war in Ukraine got trade sanctioned by most of civilized world, meanwhile China develops renewables and nuclear to reduce dependence on Russian oil exports. Russia is never going to recover.
China is growing to be the next leading global superpower whether we want it or not
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 16h
Yeah, China will dominate. Democratic middle powers should prepare for a new world.
dreamy@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 8 pts · 17h
"Oh no, China gonna kill all if American hegemony over" 😂
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · -4 pts · 17h
No but ask Philippines, India, Taiwan, Japan and South Korea what could happen to them should communist China dominates. Even ask Vietnam, a country who should in theory align with China.
Keep simping for your team, comrade simperialist.
dreamy@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 7 pts · 17h
You tell us what could happen to them.
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · -7 pts · 17h
Of course simperialists such as yourself will never ask their victims and the people they want to dominate.
dreamy@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 7 pts · 17h
Roflmao what the fuck are you saying, that I should just phone call their presidents? Are you okay?
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 8h
....They said 'communist China'
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GCf1obSZ334&pp=ygUPYnVyeWluZyBkZW5naXNt.
Thats how you know they have a negative IQ!
radio_free_asgarthr@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 21h
Gee, only Russian and Chinese bots could advocate for the Good Thing. Everyone that disagrees with me must be a Russian/Chinese bot.
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · -5 pts · 20h
FTFY
Godric@lemmy.world · -7 pts · 21h
No, broooo, trust me broooo, the nondemocracies that rival the world's biggest democracy would never try to dishonestly influence voters, trust me brooooooooooo
Diva@lemmy.ml · 16 pts · 17h
💀💀💀
NotEasyBeingGreen@slrpnk.net · 3 pts · 8h
India, right? 🤔
UnequalExchange@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 8h
He calls if the 'world's biggest democracy' but many Indians are not happy about what the Indian goverrnmet is doing.
Many Indians still live paycheque to paycheque and also India is still involvedd in Unequal Exchange with many of their trading partners meaning that most Indians dont eveng et most of the lahourbthey work for. And also there is Kashmiri people who DEFINITELY dont like the Indian government. And also Nagaland!
What is he talking aboiut?
dreamy@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 11 pts · 19h
"The world's biggest democracy" 🤣. You have a two-party system, both of which advocate for the same foreign policy.
In the last century, could we do a comparison of the wars that "the world's biggest democracy" engaged in, and look at how many of them were self-defense and how many of them were for imperialism? And comparing that to China and Russia might be a fun game as well.
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · -5 pts · 18h
Sure, the other two non-democracies you simp on is so much better and not engaging their own imperialist agenda and align with your own purported beliefs.
dreamy@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 9 pts · 17h
Find me one comment or post of mine where I "simped" for any country, I dare you.
I don't engage with the "Chinese imperialist agenda" and shit because it's so unserious, especially looking at what the U.S. has done EVERYWHERE. Have you fucking seen what life is like in Cuba, just because of U.S. sanctions and oil blockade? Do you know of the concentration camps that the U.S. used to torture completely innocent Arabs? Do you know just how much suffering America's 9/11 craze caused?
And this is just contemporary, and I'm not listing everything.
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 17h
Nobody is denying American imperialism. The question is, do you acknowledge Russian and Chinese imperialism?
dreamy@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 17h
"Do you condemn Hamas"-ass question.
No I don't. I actually couldn't care less. Do what I said in my original reply and you'll find out why.
Hadriscus@jlai.lu · 9 pts · 18h
The "world's biggest democracy"? really? how can anyone with even a modicum of awareness still believe this in 2026 ?
AviAdi@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 14h
In honor of labor day and all those who sacrificed for better working conditions I’ve been thinking of ways to make our voices heard. I think protesting at FAA air traffic facilities is a great option. If we keep controllers from accessing their jobs the air space shuts down. This would be a huge blow to Trump!
Let me explore how we organize these protests. The beauty is most of these employees are sick of going to work because they HATE TRUMP! They just need to see the public is on their side and we need to give them a reason to not show up for work! Air traffic controllers think their duty is to go to work and pretend everything is normal, if we protest right in front of them they will know the public wants them to act!
We will also not hurt the individual. The air traffic centers where there is a higher volume of controllers are paid very well. They also have great union benefits. Including leave pay called “weather leave”, which is usually time paid for absence from work due to adverse conditions. Well protests right outside their workplace is an adverse condition and the union will make sure the federal government pays the individual if they can’t make it to work!
So how do we organize this. I think we should target the air traffic centers “ARTCC”. These are large radar facilities where 100+ employees work every day. They have one gate access point. You can start off small, just on the sidewalk with signage expressing that serving Trump is shitting on the Constitution (this is a common debate between federal employees now) This can be as small as 1 person just out there on the sidewalk peacefully holding up a sign. Totally legal.
Now if we have enough numbers we can start “crossing the street” protests. Pedestrians legally are allowed to cross the street in front of the entrances to these centers and we can utilize slow walking speeds to delay entry to employees. Usually this should be done between 6-9am and 2-6pm as those are shift change hours.
Finally a lot of controllers may find other reasons to not show up to work. Emotional distress, lack of sleep, or fatigue are all Union protected reasons controllers could get PAID time off while we the people protest against the trump regime. Once the administration is deposed the worker individual can return to work normally with little impact to their financial situation!
So now the locations of the centers:
This is the issue, they are typically located outside city areas. So I don’t expect huge numbers of people showing up but like I said, 1 or 2 people protesting is still worth it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._Air_Route_Traffic_Control_Centers?wprov=sfla1
So this is my protest idea. It’s one way to affect Trump adversely, a lot of federal employees are sick of this shit, THEY JUST NEED A REASON SO LET’S SHOW THEM WE WANT THEM TO FUCK TRUMP OVER
So you read all this and you’re still thinking “oh well nothing near me and I can’t do much” Well you probably do have a FAA airport near you with a control tower, you can protest there, or many other agencies that are run by the federal government. Finally you can copy this and spread it. You can edit it if you need to but just spread this idea.
Life in the USA cannot continue to go on as if this is all normal, something has to break! It’s Labor day weekend as I write this, let’s demonstrate labor still has the fucking power!
Damage@feddit.it · 2 pts · 1d
ImperLialism?
Godric@lemmy.world · -5 pts · 1d
Must fite Murican Imperilalalism!
BilSabab@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 10h
something something something ALAMO!
DarkCloud@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
Link?
Godric@lemmy.world · -8 pts · 1d
Hard to find, they didn't have internet back in the Civil War days <3
DarkCloud@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 1d
Right, I thought you were talking about something that ACTUALLY happens when the topic comes up, not just being hyperbolic like Trump when decrying socialism.
I take it you're a "I dislike both sides, we need a return to the middle" type of centrist?
Godric@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 21h
Lmao nah, this meme is about ml support for explicitly fash Russia.
I'm a "War is actually fucking evil, humanity should really stop invading their neighbors" sorta fella. Very unpopular all around, I know.
DarkCloud@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 17h
That's not really a conflict to do with American Imperialism (as per the meme).
I think sometimes the word "tankie" is used by well meaning centrist Liberal to mean "anyone Socialist" and then pose these really simple strawmen, which might even be informed by, or aid in going after Socialists of all varieties.
...and that feels very much like something the conservative right (generationally) has set up, as much as it's a response to "once some communist prick was mean to me because I hadn't read the same books as him" (a known phenomena, and problem in a few communities)...
...either way it seems like fodder to create leftwing infighting. Which probably isn't a good thing.
ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 8h
If you look hard enough around Caleb Maupin/patsoc circles, you might find examples of that.
ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 8h
You joke but that's why Stalin supported the KMT. (European Imperialism)
daannii@lemmy.world · -5 pts · 1d
Tankies are closer to gryopers than any other group. Im suspicious that they are, infact, the same people.
Trying to create division on the left.
Doomsider@lemmy.world · -6 pts · 1d
More like look at how the government uses their citizens to fight against each other to decide which wealthy group gets control. Truly a disgusting display of manipulation and inability to govern somehow transformed into "freeing the slaves" when the resulting sharecropping was often worse than slavery. Propaganda is one hell of a drug.
Godric@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1d
Yeah, no, get outta here with that confederate bullshit. Southern Slavery was an evil institution, and the Union shooting it out of the South was a good thing.
orioler25@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1d
Okay, this person is completely incorrect in their claim about sharecropping. But yes, the US federal government did not think slavery was an issue worth going to war to end. The Confederacy explicitly existed to continue slavery even though it was not threatened whatsoever in the South and more by freesoilers out west, including Lincoln and most "antislavery" activists. The US invaded the Confederacy because the Confederacy picked a fight and decided to shoot first, it was not about any moral ground. The decision to implement antislavery policy as a tactic during the war is more accurately attributed to the growing food and resource crisis the Confederacy suffered relative to the huge advantage that guaranteeing freedom to the overwhelming enslaved population there created.
So, yes, it was good that slavery was abolished as a consequence of this War, but it would be distortive to suggest the Union fought to do that specifically. Solidarity among property-owning classes was a much more influential element in whether war broke out, and was indeed a huge reason why the war did not start until southerners started it despite the many good moral reasons to shut it down.
Godric@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 21h
Thank you for diverging from that sharecropper dipshit!
I would mention how the American West was a constant battleground, as shown with Saint John Brown.
You are absolutely correct that while Lincoln was an abolitionist, he said he wasn't willing to risk the Union over the "issue". Yet despite the claimed class solidarity between the North and South propertied, the South still became traitors as soon as Lincoln was elected.
Doomsider@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 1d
Oh yes, but the resulting sharecropping was cool and pitting families against each other to fight the wealthy's war was great. Now run along like a good little propagandized fascist fuck.
Godric@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
TIL being anti-slavery is fascism, poor John Brown
Doomsider@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 1d
Did I say slavery was a good thing? Man you are fucking stupid.
Godric@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 20h
Look buddy, it's neat you have the same takes and cadence as Everyone's Wildly Racist Uncle. Real neat, you have a lovely one, cya!
Doomsider@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 20h
What in the literal fuck are you talking about. The sharecroppers were often worse off afterwards. It was a whole new type of torture.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but white people continued fucking over the blacks to this day. The violence of the civil war didn't solve the problem.
Godric@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 20h
You know what? I typed half a comment on the wildly evil realities of enslavement, but you clearly do not care. Shill your troll ass shit elsewhere.
orioler25@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
Bud, I'm gonna have to see some sources on the sharecropping claim. Either you haven't read enough slave narratives, or there is some insanely obscured events related to sharecropping.
Edit: Okay, so we've confirmed this dude is just racist.
Doomsider@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 1d
It is simple, many slaves were treated better than sharecroppers. There was no freedom other than oppression for sharecroppers. Everytime blacks looked they would get rights the whites came in and destroyed their communities, wealth, and political capital. It was fucking torture that still exists strongly to this day.
If they were free why are they still being abused to this day? Freedom must mean something very different to you.
Bud, you gotta open you eyes to reality. No one in power at the time thought slaves were equal even Lincoln. You are going off of some re-envisioning bullshit. There are more slaves now than at anytime in history.
Mulligrubs@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1d
How could you possibly know this? What do you mean by "many"? eight? One hundred? Half?
Take a deep breath, calm yourself, and try to focus. I'd ask you to elaborate further on more of your comments, but first, tell me all about how it's simple to reach that conclusion and how you made it. It should be easy to explain, because it's simple.
Doomsider@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 1d
How could you possibly not know this!?
Oh, that is right you have profound ignorance.
https://youtu.be/dgV_0o604bQ?is=cSp8q-0xBIYn4osz
https://wams.nyhistory.org/primary-source/sharecroppers/
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/harvest-sharecropping-slavery-rerouted/
You can draw you own fucking conclusions, but I won't hold my breath.
orioler25@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
Okay, Im not 100% certain of what you think you're saying, but this and the comment below aren't coherent.
You said sharecropping was worse than slavery, and that is not elevating the systemic racism experienced by African Americans in a post-Civil War era to the present, it actually diminishes it by denying the severity of slavery. I don't think you realize what you've said, because it is immensely racist.
Black women's bodies were objectified for their reproductive capacity throughout the history of slavery in the US, but especially so in the early decades of the 19th century after the importation of enslaved peoples was banned and the only source of growth for that population was through their bodies. This meant they were raped to produce more slaves dude, sexual violence is inherent to slavery, but think for a minute about just how brutal that single element of the institution is. This is of course not even the only form of sexual violence that occurred within African American enslavement in the US; white slave owners regularly raped women they claimed ownership over, engaged in sexual humiliation as a form of punishment, in Louisiana, wealthy owners would even participate in balls or galas where they'd display their "mistresses," which were enslaved women.
This isn't even getting into the myriad of other vectors of violence, the brutal punishments that were inflicted on them, the degree of forced labour, forced malnutrition (yes, worse than simply being a poor farmer), the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 even allowed the abduction and forced enslavement of relatively any African American in slave or free states should they find themselves in an unfortunate position.
The reason why slavery was bad is the same reason there are constant attempts by racists in the US to claim that racism is over because the "actual" bad elements of it are abolished and the only reason there is discrimination afterward is due to some innate flaw in black people or individuals' character. They did it after slavery was abolished, after black men were elected to political positions, after the great migration, after the Civil Rights Act, after Obama got elected. Erasing the brutality of slavery to elevate some other form of oppression neglects the reality that those two forms of oppression are relational, both in their historical developments and in the ways each are facilitated within a racist system.
Please, do not spread misinformation irresponsibly, even if you're trying to do something good.
Doomsider@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 1d
I didn't say that. Listen, if you want to make up an argument go ahead. Have fun acting like a dumbass.
orioler25@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1d
I asked for any source and you linked some (inadequate) secondary sources below that simply discuss that sharecropping was discriminatory. Slavery wasn't bad just because it was racist, and you clearly thought that was the case. I'd be happy to provide a reading list when I have a minute.
Also, you not only said that, but you said it multiple times explicitly throughout this thread. Bud, you gotta stop pretending to know about shit you clearly don't know well enough about.
Doomsider@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 1d
What is the serious fuck are you talking about!? I was pointing out the end of slavery didn't materially improve the lives of sharecroppers in the South. Life got worse, not better which is a conundrum if you believe in a progressive movement in history. They had no protection, they were raped and murdered at will. I am not saying it was better than slavery but rather a new form of torture.
You have got to be trolling or perhaps acting stupid on purpose. I really don't care at this point.
orioler25@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
You seriously have to start reading your own comments before you post them. Reread the thread ✌️
Fancy_Gecko@lemmy.ml · -7 pts · 12h
you mean liberals ?
OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world · -7 pts · 1d
Lemmy Tankies seem to think: “The Confederates are bad but the USA isn’t perfect, so we should let the Confederacy win!”
FunkyStuff@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 7h
Is there an example of someone actually thinking this way?
OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 7h
It’s a joke. Building off the meme. And example would be the entire 2024 election cycle, where the tankies essentially preached trump / MAGA is bad but Harris isn’t perfect, so I won’t vote for Harris - thus letting trump win.
FunkyStuff@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 4h
Are you sure the reason "tankies" didn't vote for Harris wasn't her promise to keep supporting genocide in Gaza?
Beside, how is that situation comparable to the meme, in which "tankies" are charged with supporting the confederacy whole heartedly.
OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 4h
My original comment was disagreeing with the meme.
Did letting trump win (by refusing to vote for Harris) stop the genocide in Gaza? Did trump not also promise to keep supporting genocide in Gaza? Now we have genocide there, and ethnic cleansing in the USA, plus several more atrocities on top of that. None of which would have happened if Harris won.
Which President would have been easier to convince to turn away from Israel ( assuming it were a possibility)?