TL;DW: Fast charging over 2 years only degraded the battery an extra 0.5%, even on extremely fast charging Android phones using 120W.
And with that, hopefully we can put this argument to rest.
Is Fast Charging Killing the Battery? A 2-Year Test on 40 Phones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLS5Cg_yNdM
181 Comments
BlackLaZoR@fedia.io · 174 pts · 293d
It's as if engineers knew what they're doing.
QuadratureSurfer@piefed.social · 137 pts · 293d
Granted, with all the planned obsolescence happening, you could also argue that engineers "knew" what they were doing.
BlackLaZoR@fedia.io · 34 pts · 293d
Planned obsolescence happens but it's not as common as most people think it is.
mark@programming.dev · 23 pts · 293d
And probably not as intentional as most people think it is vs just laziness and maybe a lack of planning.
Zorque@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 293d
So not planned obsolescence, then?
Electricd@lemmybefree.net · 2 pts · 292d
Well, if they realize the problem and do nothing to fix it and don’t advertise this problem, it ends up being a less worse type of planned obsolescence, but it’s still planned obsolescence imo
More like unplanned obsolescence but it’s a convenient problem so we plan on it happening
Ugurcan@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 293d
It’s always bulbs or Apple. Bulbs industry switched into LED like 15 years ago, which has 20x lifespan than “durable” filaments; and iPhones average life is 6 years whereas competitors usually went into bin in 3 years.
golli@sopuli.xyz · 6 pts · 293d
With iPhones i think it's less about durability (and especially in the software department they were always great in terms of longevity), but more about repairability in case something does happen.
As far as lightbulbs go the issue with potential planned obsolescence doesn't go way just because of the swap to LEDs. First there are a type of bulb even today that use some form of filament and second the part that gets damaged is usually some kind of capacitor or other electronic part that gets run with too much voltage and too hot. Don't have time to watch it again, but i remember finding this video from a few years ago interesting.
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 292d
Back when people made a big deal about iPhone planned obsolescence, they were actually easier to repair than most competitors. Nowadays it's about the same.
umbrella@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 293d
towerful@programming.dev · 3 pts · 291d
The planned obsolescence is most likely a deliberate trade off rather than actual planned obsolescence.
If fast charging did do significant damage to battery life and this was known at the time of implementation, the decision would have been "users want fast charging phones" Vs "users want devices that last a long time".
In this instance, the convenience of fast charging absolutely would have won.
"Users want a clear and easy to use device" Vs "users want a robust device". Which is why we all have glass screens, and the glass technology had to catch up to further expectations.
"Users want easy wireless connectivity" Vs "users want fast and reliable network speeds". WiFi wins, and has to catch up to further expectations.
RightEdofer@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 293d
amorpheus@lemmy.world · 42 pts · 292d
If engineers were the ones in control that would mean something.
As I see it, phone manufacturers have zero reasons to keep the battery degradation low, but many reasons to push advertised capacity and charging speed. If you were cynical, you could also assume that they're trying to make sure the battery doesn't last too long because they want to keep selling new phones.
binarytobis@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 292d
I think we all know that if an engineer went to upper management and said “I can charge these batteries faster, but it degrades the battery life by 20% over a year.” they would have said “Do it! We won’t mention that last part.”
ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de · 6 pts · 292d
You say that like batteries don't need replaced every few years or that they didn't design the Samsung Note 8 phone that kept catching on fire.
Engineers get told to make the phone charge as quickly as possible, while still lasting 2 years. After that, the company with those engineers pretty much wants the battery to fail, so they can sell a new device.
The one thing I wanted to see from that video, was also just testing the batteries until they went below like 75% capacity. The initial degradation may start off similar for capacity, but that doesn't mean it will stay that way.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 293d
Yep. I'm gonna miss real engineering with the coming Ai-driven Idiocracy.
FauxPseudo@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 292d
Engineers have the best of intentions. The Bean counters have very different intentions and they're the ones that corporate listens to.
frongt@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 292d
Well, except for the engineers on the Samsung Galaxy Note 7. They put the battery terminals too close together, making it really easy for a short to occur.
BlackLaZoR@fedia.io · -1 pts · 292d
Samsung notoriously fucks up something up in their phones - from shitty interface changes, to excessive battery drain. Just buy Pixel instead
FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au · 8 pts · 292d
Literally every flagship pixel up until the 8 or so has had major issues lol. The 7 series are all having batteries start swelling, causing Google to offer refunds lol.
You literally could not have chosen a worse brand to suggest on this topic 🤣
Sims@lemmy.ml · 156 pts · 293d
"And with that, hopefully we can put this argument to rest."
That's not how the internet works, but nice try though ;-)
PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.world · 44 pts · 292d
I disagree!
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 8 pts · 292d
You fool! You fell into the classic blunder! All this time it was I, Dio!
kratoz29@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 292d
You guys joke and all, but fast charge induces bigger heat and then translates in more harm for the batteries (which will affect more in hot places).
If we want to close this discussion forever I think all the anxiety that comes from this subject at all is due to the fact we can't easily replace the batteries, if we could (with the normal-ish battery sizes we have today), I don't think this test would be even worth doing.
AA5B@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 291d
While that seems obvious, I’ll disagree
qualia@lemmy.world · 95 pts · 292d
However the Battery Saver mode on Androids that only charges the battery up to 80% DOES extend battery life. Substantial evidence shows that a high State of Charge accelerates degradation through: solid electrolyte interphase growth, loss of lithium inventory, and loss of active materials. (See: mdpi.com)
SaraTonin@lemmy.world · 32 pts · 292d
Here’s a fun fact: phone manufacturers know this. So what they call “100%” is not actually 100%. Your phone will not charge your battery to full. Battery charging is already designed around this.
mjr@infosec.pub · 27 pts · 292d
Got proof? I've not cracked open a phone for a while to see if the component labelling matches the interface, let alone tested capacity of an extracted battery directly.
SaraTonin@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 292d
https://www.wired.com/story/how-to-improve-battery-life-tips-myths-smartphones/
rumba@lemmy.zip · 13 pts · 291d
He's not talking about 80/20 limits. he's talking about material breakdown at extremes. Not all manufacturers spec in 80/20 limits. AFAIK, only Samsung actually lets you stop it completely at 80, the rest just try to let it sit no higher than 80 all night.
If they were saccrificing 40% of runtime to keep you from having to replace your battery, that would 100% be in the sales pitch.
And honestly, that article isn't a great source of truth. A number of the statements in there are inaccurate or, at the very least, misleading.
Charging beyond 100% or below 0% is mostly BS. The proper max voltage of the battery is a physics thing, they are in equilibrium at 4.7 / cell. Picking at a low power limit is up to the manufacturer and their choice in power distribution circuitry. He asked the chemist if you could overcharge or overdischarge a battery and mistook that as an answer that it was feasible to overcharge/overdischarge them.
"Leaving a charger plugged in at the wall and turned on wastes energy False (well, maybe a tiny bit)" This is still true for many chargers, and calling it out as a little bit in his own arbitrary numbers is disingenuous.
"Batteries perform worse when they’re cold False (mostly)"
Rest assured, your C rating is wildly affected by temperature; he's trying to again call it out as slight, which is making his own narrative.
"Powering off a device occasionally helps preserve battery life False"
The whole time your phone is on, you are charging or discharging. Those cycles wear on the battery any time you shut your phone off, you are in the least damaging mode for your battery, especially if it's around 50% or so.
"Using an unofficial charger damages your phone True"
100% BS, using a crappy charger might damage your phone. Buying a quality 3rd party chager is no problem at all.
The author doesn't appear to have a strong electronics background and he didn't ask the right questions or fully understand the importat parts of the answers
"And if too much current is delivered to a battery, that could mean ripping out too many of those lithium ions and leading to the same kind of degradation you read about earlier. That’s not to say that all off-brand chargers will be this bad, Griffith notes, but you’re still probably better off sticking with an official model." is not the same as "Using an unofficial charger damages your phone"
mjr@infosec.pub · 9 pts · 292d
Article rests on one expert. That assistant professor's publication list doesn't seem to contain evidence about it, plus the quotes in the article don't directly say it happens.
Maybe it does, but that article only seems to be guessing based on (admittedly reasonable) theory.
village604@adultswim.fan · 1 pts · 291d
Iirc the reason Samsung phones were exploding a few years back is because they fucked up the settings for battery management.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 13 pts · 291d
That depends on the manufacturer, some do, some don't. My phone has a setting to control the max charge, so I set it to 80% when I got it.
Predator@feddit.uk · 3 pts · 291d
Yes, but that 100% is not really that. It has been programmed to display that percentage, when i reality its 80%.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 291d
No, I'm saying that not all manufacturers have that limit, and it's a relatively new setting (last few years). If you have an older phone or something not from the top few manufacturers, it might not have that feature.
BillBurBaggins@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 291d
This is like spinal tap. Yeah but my phone charges to 110%. I don't think you understood what they're trying to say. Changing what 100% means isn't a setting or "relatively new"
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 291d
I'm saying when your phone charges to 100%, some manufacturers take that to mean 80% of capacity, whereas others actually charge the battery to 100% of capacity.
BillBurBaggins@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 291d
Exactly, which is neither a user setting or relatively new. Battery manufacturers have always had to decide what voltage is what state of charge (percent).
The user setting where you limit it to 80% is on top of what the previous commenter was describing
ilinamorato@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 291d
No, they're saying that some hardware manufacturers report 80% as 100% (as you noted) while others do not. Just like some manufacturers report 5% as 5% while others report 10% as 5% with the realization that most people misjudge when they'll be able to charge.
JackbyDev@programming.dev · 2 pts · 291d
Source?
shane@feddit.nl · 15 pts · 292d
I always find the same study referenced, which was good science but also almost 30 years old. I wonder if this is still true for modern batteries?
floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 7 pts · 292d
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know there haven't been significant changes in Li-Ion and LiPo batteries aside from extra density - which would only increase the effect. But it seems like solid-state batteries are starting to hit the real world now
AA5B@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 291d
I bet thats wrong, but I know ….
There've been usage changes
village604@adultswim.fan · 2 pts · 291d
It is, but phone manufacturers know this and already programmed their charging circuits to take it into account.
But if you're using 18650 cells or some other lithium based battery for other purposes (vapes for example), it's something to keep in mind.
Tja@programming.dev · 7 pts · 292d
FYI: During this test it saved about 5% of SoH.
kratoz29@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 292d
It must help as my dad's S23 (which I happen to use now) has about 88% battery life with 870 cycle counts (he always charged to 80% with said option), and for that I am grateful.
Blackmist@feddit.uk · 84 pts · 292d
Betteridge's law of headlines: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."
By_pander@feddit.org · 33 pts · 292d
„Is drinking Paint thinner really as bad as everybody says?“
Strobelt@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 292d
Well. It could be worse than what everybody says
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 292d
is the poupe deck really what i think it is
InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 292d
Corollary:
How not following trends and drinking paint thinner boosted my B2B sales
Valmond@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 292d
No.
Tja@programming.dev · 6 pts · 292d
Are we talking about water-based paint?
village604@adultswim.fan · 1 pts · 291d
I believe that paint thinner does contain water
Tja@programming.dev · 2 pts · 290d
Water-based paints can be thinned with water, so technically water is a paint thinner... which is safe to drink.
Ajen@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 291d
Not if it's for oil based paints.
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 292d
You joke, but I actually know some contrarians that would legit try it if this was a headline they saw.
Threeme2189@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 292d
Maybe it can be modified to something like:
"Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by yes or no, whichever seems the most obvious."
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 291d
Nope:
AA5B@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 291d
That’s no longer true. As reporting quality continues to decline and headlines focus more and more on outrage clicks straying further and further from the content, all too many can now be answered with ”n/a”
PostaL@lemmy.world · 79 pts · 292d
TL;DW: No
cley_faye@lemmy.world · 41 pts · 293d
I hadn't watched the video yet, but my phone's going the opposite way. It run slow charge overnight when it feels like it's going to be enough for it to be fully charged the next morning.
We really should let electronics and tight software take care of these little things.
JasonDJ@lemmy.zip · 31 pts · 293d
My phone tells me every night that it's slow charging and it will be full by [the time I have my alarm set for].
Pixel 8 Pro.
atomicbocks@sh.itjust.works · 16 pts · 293d
iPhones do this as well, I assume both will also do it without the alarm as mine has simply learned what time I take it off the charger normally.
Electricd@lemmybefree.net · 3 pts · 292d
That works if you have a correct sleep schedule… this feature only enabled like 20 times in my life, and half the time it disabled itself because I used my phone during the night
HubertManne@piefed.social · 7 pts · 292d
Its kinda funny as I remember when people wanted a phone that could last all day because there was plenty of time to charge on the nightstand. Feels like batteries got way better and people got lazy about plugging them in.
relativestranger@feddit.nl · 2 pts · 292d
always have been, here. the old cdma flip phone went about a month between charges, even when it was 5+ years old. the new volte one sucks. with a higher power draw and the shitty 4g signal here, i have to plug it in every few days. the only 'plus' is that i always know where a charger cable is now, because it's usb-c and i use that for other things, too.
Electricd@lemmybefree.net · 2 pts · 292d
We always want better :)
AA5B@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 291d
We just spend more and more time on our phones. I still charge every night. Each new phone I’ve gotten has had more battery life than the last but I also use the phone constantly, so it’s no more likely to last the day.
This is somewhat masked because my car has fast wireless charging. I just put my phone down and when I get somewhere my battery is topped off
realitista@lemmus.org · 1 pts · 293d
If you'd watch the video you may realize it's not needed.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 10 pts · 293d
No need to wait aeons for someone who enjoys the sound of their own voice to slowly and laboriously explain it like astronomy to a dog. Someone wrote 15 words and I read it in about a half-second.
papalonian@lemmy.world · 21 pts · 292d
I'm not saying your opinion is wrong or that you have to watch the video or anything like that, but videos like this are made so that you can see the testing procedure and judge it's validity without just having to assume they did their job right. I wouldn't trust someone just saying "yup, tried it out, doesn't really matter 👍🏽"
realitista@lemmus.org · 5 pts · 292d
Yeah I mean there is a progress bar, you can just jump to the results if you are in a hurry.
AA5B@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 291d
You can if you just want the results but the value of a video like this is going over the process and the detail, so you know how much to trust it.
smeenz@lemmy.nz · 3 pts · 292d
I'm sorry that you're allergic to information.
AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 292d
Given that video is the format with generally the lowest useful information transmission rate, I think you've got that the other way around.
cley_faye@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 292d
The point is that I never had to care about battery management for years. I just leave the phone doing its thing. Not that it's useful or not useful to do so.
The whole point is that I leave that in the hand of people that know.
realitista@lemmus.org · 3 pts · 292d
Well not charging to 100% all the time will improve your battery life, and if you keep your devices a long time and have a usage pattern that allows charging it less like I do (I leave mine on a wireless charge pad at work), then it makes sense to make some adjustments to that particular setting.
cley_faye@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 292d
Nah, I can't be bothered by that. And the only device's battery I really had issues with was a seven years old laptop, years ago. BMS and software will almost always know better than the user these days.
realitista@lemmus.org · 4 pts · 292d
Max charge level is not something the BMS can decide for you because it's a trade off between battery health and daily charge level. That's why they ask you to choose.
cley_faye@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 292d
Who's doing the asking there? Neither my laptop nor my phones asked anything.
According to the settings on my current phone, the automatic setting will decide by itself to limit the maximum charge overnight, then plan to go full charge around the time my alarm should fire.
But, again, that's the kind of micromanagement that would yield a tiny fraction of "maybe improvement" over the lifetime of the damn thing. I'd rather have a device works all the time for 6 years than have a device that's sometime undercharged for 6.1 years.
realitista@lemmus.org · 2 pts · 292d
Depends on the phone I'm sure but every device I own has this setting.
AA5B@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 291d
But the point of this video is whether the things you have control over make a significant difference.
MurrayL@lemmy.world · 36 pts · 293d
Non-magnetically-aligned wireless chargers are far worse than fast charging.
aBundleOfFerrets@sh.itjust.works · 28 pts · 293d
Far worse at what? Wasting energy? That isn’t what the video is testing.
MurrayL@lemmy.world · 43 pts · 293d
At killing batteries faster - the wasted energy creates heat, which degrades the battery.
chocrates@piefed.world · 21 pts · 293d
That makes sense but has it actually been tested?
Anivia@feddit.org · 12 pts · 293d
But keep in mind the phone will throttle charging speeds when it gets warm, so the battery doesn't end up getting much warmer, it just takes forever to get a full charge (especially when using a thick case that puts further space between the charging coils and also acts as thermal insulation, thus reduces the phones ability to cool down)
MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 8 pts · 293d
It is still keeping the battery warmer which degrades it faster regardless if its being charged or not.
ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de · 5 pts · 292d
They tested that too, actually. Heat, I mean. It's in a different one of the channels videos. It's easy to find, since the channel only has like 10 videos and only a few are about phones .
KingOfSuede@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 293d
[citation needed]
warm@kbin.earth · 8 pts · 293d
https://www.ifixit.com/News/94409/wireless-charging-trading-efficiency-for-convenience
It's true, but wireless charging is still inefficient and should be avoided.
iopq@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 292d
It's literally a few watt hours. Not kilowatt hours, watt hours. I pay $0.08 per kwh, so after a few years of wireless charging I might pay $1 more
But the USB-C cord might break in less than that time and cost more. Manufacturing cords is never going to be green, but electricity can be made renewable
warm@kbin.earth · 1 pts · 292d
The charging pad might also break and they require cables themselves, plus all the materials to make the charging pad, plus every phone has to support wireless, which is even more materials. I've never broken a USB-C cable, that's a user issue, you are either being way too aggressive with them, buying low quality ones, or both.
iopq@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 292d
You keep on connecting and reconnecting the USB-C cable, and if you use it while charging you probably bend it.
The cable in the charging pad never gets unplugged
warm@kbin.earth · 1 pts · 292d
You can't use a wireless charger while in bed. Unless it's magnetic, then it's also got the bending risk.
I lay in bed all the time with my phone charging, the cable bends, but I'm aware of it, it's never broken. I've had this specific one for 4 years now.
What if I want to charge in a different room? Do I buy another wireless charger? That's more cost and material again versus just a cable. Do I unplug the charger and take it with me? Cables just make way more sense. Your phone is tethered to something either way, might as well do it the more efficient and green way and plug a cable in.
iopq@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 292d
If you yank a magnetic stick on charger it just disconnects. If you yank a wired cord it can break it.
I never said you must stop using wired charging. If you're using it while charging and it works for you, you can continue to do that.
BlackLaZoR@fedia.io · -15 pts · 293d
Wireless charging is a gimmick like 3D TV was. There's only one use case, and it's car use. But it doesn't need to be fast. In every other case it's worse than cable in every aspect
0x0@infosec.pub · 18 pts · 293d
sure grandpa
BlackLaZoR@fedia.io · -8 pts · 293d
You're so cool. You can just throw your phone at charging plate to cook itself, while you can't use it. But it looks cool. Cool tech for cool people.
realitista@lemmus.org · 2 pts · 293d
It makes my wife considerably less pissed off when I come to bed late and am not fumbling with cables, so it's a win for me.
warm@kbin.earth · 3 pts · 292d
She gets pissed off if you take 2 seconds to plug a phone in? Are you alright brother?
realitista@lemmus.org · -1 pts · 292d
Well if I wake her up then yes. No one likes being woken up.
shyguyblue@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 293d
A phone with wireless charging is a bit niche, but if only all my little devices had wireless charging; earbuds, vape, tablet, controller, remote, etc. I'd set a charging mat in the middle of the coffee table and have all my devices just be charged and ready to go. Now it's just a mess of wires, with the only thing I keep glued to my hand featuring wireless charging!?
chocrates@piefed.world · 2 pts · 293d
I'm hoping for ranged wireless charging. Everything is always charged when Im inside.
cley_faye@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 293d
Just live in a microwave. Problem solved!
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 292d
Only with the correct iOS version though.
BlackLaZoR@fedia.io · 3 pts · 292d
Not doable without some very expensive addons to your house - like IR charging from ceiling
That's living in microwave, I'd say its not going to ever happen
chocrates@piefed.world · 1 pts · 292d
https://news.mit.edu/2019/converting-wi-fi-signals-electricity-0128
I'm fine with infrastructure overhaul. We build new houses every day.
We just need to be clever enough to do it without cooking ourselves
BlackLaZoR@fedia.io · 1 pts · 292d
Wifi is limited to ~100 miliwats of power, and what reaches you and your phone is in range of microwats or even less. You can't charge your phone with it.
warm@kbin.earth · 5 pts · 293d
Wireless charging sucks. It costs significantly more energy to charge the same battery to full.
iopq@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 292d
Your phone doesn't have that much energy stored in it. 5 watt hours or so? Now consider the energy cost of making usb-c cords
warm@kbin.earth · 3 pts · 292d
The charging pad itself probably requires a USB-C cable itself? It takes much more materials to make them than a cable...
iopq@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 292d
It doesn't have plugging and unplugging cycles and doesn't get bent in different directions, so it will basically never break unless you use the phone while holding the charging pad
warm@kbin.earth · -1 pts · 292d
So I'm expected to hold a wireless charger as well? When I can just have a light cable plugged in, generating less heat and for less time? Unless you are buying really low quality cables, they shouldn't break and unless you are aggressive with it, the cable and the port will last years. When they eventually wear out, the cable is recyclable and depending on your phone, the USB-C port replaceable.
Wireless charging is for toothbrushes.
iopq@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 292d
Nobody said you must get rid of wired charging.
Over four years I've broken three or four cables. Every time it's because the phone moved while plugged in. Whether it's my error (forgetting it's plugged in) or the cat knocking the phone down, nothing breaks when the phone falls down from the wireless charger
sexy_peach@feddit.org · 4 pts · 293d
yup, the chinese brand have it right. Fast charging is amazing, just put the phone on charge for like 10-20 minutes and you can forget about your battery for another day. It's great.
tempest@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 292d
I have a one plus phone.
The super vook charging works very well. It feels like less than 10 minutes to go from 10 to 80 percent.
mark@programming.dev · 2 pts · 293d
The Chinese have it right with the food too. Love me egg foo yung
FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au · 0 pts · 292d
Magnetic portable battery packs are fantastic too.
DacoTaco@lemmy.world · 29 pts · 292d
Ok, before i watch the video, no damage is not what great scott found from his testings.. ( https://youtu.be/iMn2yVoEqPs ).
so i have no idea what to believe anymore, but my (based) experience is that it does damage it. Ill have to watch later.
Smokeless7048@lemmy.world · 25 pts · 292d
Yea, but that wasn't a great rest. I love Great Scott, but a lot of comments fairly call out his conclusion.
Most (all?)phones don't charge at full speed to 100% charge, they fast charge when the battery is almoast empty, and charge slower the more full it gets.
DacoTaco@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 292d
Right, so basically he removed the software aspect in his tests which removes systems to protect the battery. I assume without them, it is damaging, like what great scott found.
Ye, he should have continued his experiments then!
village604@adultswim.fan · 2 pts · 291d
It's a true conclusion, though, although it's not real world applicable.
Smokeless7048@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 291d
It is, if you are just dealing with bare batteries without any kind of protection, but if you are dealing with cellphones/modern smart devices, not so much
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 12 pts · 292d
Those circuits he made up doesn't take into account that the phones have built in protections that alternate the input based on charge level.
Ibuthyr@lemmy.wtf · 24 pts · 293d
I always thought that charging beyond 85% or so is what degrades batteries. The LiPos of my quadcopter actually actively reduce their charge if left sitting somewhere for a longer period of time. To prevent them from going up in flames.
Bazoogle@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 292d
The idea with fast charging is it's going to generate more heat. That extra heat is what damages the batteries life
InnerScientist@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 292d
https://youtu.be/Lj4LMlGr4og
Video from the same guy.
Electricd@lemmybefree.net · 2 pts · 292d
Thanks, I’ll watch this
frongt@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 292d
It does, but the battery charge controller in your phone already does that. What it shows you as 0-100 is 20-80 of the actual battery. Others may or may not.
stealth_cookies@lemmy.ca · 10 pts · 292d
What you call 0% or 100% on a battery is an arbitrary number anyway. Absolutely never do this for safety reasons, but back when I worked for a battery lab I did experiments where I discharged cells to below 0V.
Zink@programming.dev · 1 pts · 292d
In a previous job I once evaluated some returned product that wasn't having the best battery life or wasn't working right. It was specialized expensive equipment that used regular alkaline batteries.
TL;DR: ordinary batteries can have negative voltage if you don't give a fuck and just mix your old and new ones in a drawer before you put them into your high-cost life-saving equipment.
TimeNaan@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 292d
Do you have more info on that?
myplacedk@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 292d
Lithium-* batteries don't actually have any specific useful numbers. It's something like this (the actual numbers are pulled out of my ass and depends on battery time and test parameters and even then I'm simplifying):
At 0 volts, the battery is dead.
At 1 volts, the battery is practically dead.
Discharging to 2 volts kills it after around 100 times.
Discharging to 3 volts kills it after around 10 000 times
Discharging to 3.5 volts kills it after 100 000 times
Charging to 4 volts kills it after 100 000 times
Charging to 4.2 volts kills it after 10 000 times
Charging to 4.3 volt kills it after 1000 times
Charging to 4.4 volts kills it after 100 times
Charging to 4.5 has s significant chance of it catching fire
Now choose how many charge cycles you want it to survive, and you know which voltage to consider 0% and which to consider 100%. The bigger difference, the bigger capacity with the same battery.
This is why a phone with 0% battery can tell you that it's out of battery.
You can also adjust what "killed" means. Is it when battery capacity is reduced to 80%? 50%?
I have to repeat - the numbers are not accurate, and this is strongly simplified.
It's just an illustration of what 0% and 100% means it's just where you are on the useful range, according to the manufacturers definition of useful.
toddestan@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 292d
The battery has a charge curve. What does the most wear or damage to the battery is the ends of the curve - either deep discharging the battery or charging it up fully to the point where it cannot take any more charge. It's up to the manufacturer where they want to put 0% and 100% on the curve - to protect and extend the life of the battery most manufacturers don't put 0% and 100% at the extreme ends of the curve.
frongt@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 292d
Best source I can find: https://eugen-barilyuk.medium.com/how-i-realized-android-battery-percentage-wasnt-serious-enough-0310e484d874
3.7v is 0%, 4.2v is 100%. But a lithium battery can go higher and lower, it's just that doing that can harm the battery, perhaps spectacularly. OEMs just narrow the voltage range to extend life. When you set a charge limit, it narrows that range further.
xep@discuss.online · 3 pts · 292d
You'll find that based on 3.7 - 4.2 that most li-ion batteries are indeed charged from 0-100 and not 20-80 as you previously claimed. Manufacturers have no reason to overprovision consumer products that are made to be replaced in 5 years or so.
frongt@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 292d
Yes, that's what I said. You could go higher and lower, and it would be reasonable to do for a short-life device, but they reduce it to extend the life. Mapping voltage to percentage is arbitrary.
stealth_cookies@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 291d
Something is off with the link's measurements. 3.7V is a li-ion cell's nominal voltage, not its lower limit. Typical operating range is 3.0V - 4.2V. No battery chemistry I'm familiar with would have a lower cutoff as high as 3.7V.
stealth_cookies@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 291d
A cell's voltage will change with how much energy it stores, but if you keep applying current to force more charge to move you can cause voltages to be quite far outside of the proper range. However you don't want to do this as at minimum you are damaging the materials in the cell, or worse, cause a significant safety hazard where the cell could catch on fire.
You can look at the Discharge Curve of a cell which compares voltage vs capacity, as a rule of thumb, essentially the steeper the curve changes, the more damage you are doing to the cell by operating in the range.
Doomsider@lemmy.world · 21 pts · 293d
This is the type of scientific method that can put all this nonsense to rest. I really appreciate their work proving that the difference between fast/slow/30-80% is insignificant to the majority of people.
Thanks!
MangoCats@feddit.it · 7 pts · 292d
Battery lore has been cargo-cult woo since the NiMH days... most of it feels like manufacturers saying "oh, I'm sorry you didn't get our advertised life, you must have done something wrong."
adespoton@lemmy.ca · 20 pts · 292d
I’ve got some devices I’ve been fast charging for 8 years; it seems to be more of a problem as the device ages; but that’s offset by having it ready to use again quickly.
14th_cylon@lemmy.zip · 15 pts · 293d
wow... the idea that the anecdotal evidence of some youtuber should be the proof, not the engineering and chemistry knowledge of people who designed the battery and charging system and know how it works, is on par with the belief that global warming is caused by farts of the turtles carrying the earth. sad noises.
onoki@reddthat.com · 5 pts · 292d
Which part contradicts what the engineers or scientists think?
warm@kbin.earth · 14 pts · 293d
This isn't a fair like-to-like test though. They used iPhones, which use one battery and then for their 120W test they used iQOO 7, which has two batteries that charge in parallel. They aren't testing the charge rate effects on a single battery, but just how different phones behave.
While it's an okay test to see how certain models of phones hold up, it's not a test for longevity of a single battery using fast and and not-as-fast charging.
So the title, as it often is these days on YouTube, is misleading.
BritishJ@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 292d
No they did a fast and slow charging group for iPhone, and also did a fast and slow charging group for Androids. Did you not pay attention.
warm@kbin.earth · 3 pts · 292d
The video was pretty poorly structured to be honest, should have been longer with better information and they didn't post their data anywhere to read. I mean they had ~30 seconds just growing plants...
But the point stands, they weren't testing 1 to 1 on batteries (hard to do anyway). There's good reasons for why manufacturers havent just cranked it all to 200W charging.
The video isn't a sudden revelation, we already knew how batteries behave, they've been tested in labs under much more strenuous conditions too.
plz1@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 292d
That's a great TL:DW;
Now I want an iPhone that can charge in 20 minutes. :)
InnerScientist@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 292d
Wish granted, the battery is now small enough to slow charge to full in 20 minutes.
::: spoiler Tap for spoiler The iPhone air is great, isn't it? :::
Credibly_Human@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 292d
As humorous as this sounds, this is not at all how battery chemistries works.
Some chemistries just charge faster than others.
for the common types of Lion or Lipo batteries, they max out pushing 2C which is around 30 minutes.
For something like LTO, where you lose capacity/density, you can get that up to like 4C (very rough numbers here as this all depends on the temperature of the battery while charging, age and other factors).
So like... this could have been accurate if this was referring to switching to LTO, but afaik, no one makes LTO batteries in this form-factor (not that it can't be done though).
Valmond@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 292d
So put in a big-ass battery and artificially block it at 20% for "full"? 😁
plz1@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 291d
I've been a "Pro" user for as long as they'd had that distinction vs. lower end and the "it's a small tablet" size.
Valmond@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 292d
He he Xiaomi 120 watt charge. 19 minutes from zero to full. Well I only have tried from like 12% to 80+ because that was more than enough and I wont let it go to zero-zero. I don't use it regularly, not because I fear for my battery but it does get the phone warm and warm/cool cycles are bad for electronics.
The day the battery degrades I'll just have it swapped for a new one, I think we're far enough into the battery revolution to no longer really care about all this any more.
plz1@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 291d
That's pretty awesome
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 292d
modern phones last long enough , that you likely wont see significant degradation unless you somehow using it for 10+years. most people would have switched phones multiples by then.
goatinspace@feddit.org · 8 pts · 292d
warm@kbin.earth · 6 pts · 293d
Is this because it's using two-cells though, or is it comparing charging one cell vs multiple.
OhVenus_Baby@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 293d
I think this accurate or close to it for phones but my laptop battery a Dell has degraded very quickly through 50 plus or more cycles of battery like 15 percent. It went from 59wh down to 50wh and it ebbs and flows. Runs Linux mint and installed power top and some other low power mods to help dumb things down to conserve. I feel like arm processors vs x86 are wildly different.
cmnybo@discuss.tchncs.de · 5 pts · 292d
What kills the batteries is keeping them at 100% charge all the time, especially when the laptop is hot. Some laptops do have the ability to limit the maximum charge. Setting the maximum charge to 60-80% when the laptop is going to be plugged in for a while will extend the battery life. It is necessary to occasionally do a full charge to keep the capacity sensor calibrated though.
LoafedBurrito@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 293d
Just what I wanted to know. Thanks!!
erotador@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 293d
are we not going to see results of the half cycle vs the full cycle? unless im dumb and missed something (its possible)
atomicbocks@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 293d
I would rather see another two years before I call this totally an over argument. Most people are keeping phones for a few years now.
KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 293d
In fairness, that’s another 2 year commitment.
Engywuck@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 293d
Yeah, but it's my 0.5% /s
qweertz@programming.dev · -20 pts · 291d
I love when YT amateurs act as if they are able to produce proper studies that are relevant in any fucking way
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 291d
If you have a problem with it, tell us why.
qweertz@programming.dev · -16 pts · 291d
I personally prefer a proper peer reviewed study over amateur YT slop
frustrated@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 291d
I have no skin in the game but I have worked professionally as both an academic scientist and a data scientist in the private sector and I can tell you that peer review is great but a lot of legitimate research is done outside the bounds of academic journals. It is entirely possible for amateurs to do real science.
If the effect size is large enough, you dont actually need to be that rigorous about it. No one needed to do a study on whether there was a direct correlation between adverse medical outcomes and gunshot wounds to the head.
qweertz@programming.dev · 1 pts · 288d
I personally don't trust the little (probably superficial) insights I have into the topic enough to be able to gauge this; neither do I have the energy to put into discerning slop creators doing it for clickbait with some backyard engineering or genuinely correct amateurs.
I like to outsource that to proper channels, I understand that it's probably not 100% fair every single time, but as I said, I have neither time nor energy to judge it properly myself
frustrated@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 270d
You have the right approach. If you have neither the time nor the ability to judge for yourself, you should 100% outsource it to the proper channels. I just mean for the people who have the energy and ability to responsibly do the digging, there is no reason to be so limited in your resources.
JackbyDev@programming.dev · 8 pts · 291d
Person: offers you an apple
You: "Personally, I prefer organic, homemade apple pie! Not APPLE SLOP!"
Donkter@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 291d
Sorry, but it's more like a crab apple.
It looks like an apple, it's presented like an apple, it's advertised like an apple because that is what makes the YouTuber money. But scientific methods and standards exist for a reason. It's very easy to produce bad data and especially easy to extract bad conclusions from data if you have an incentive to do so (such as a fan base who might engage with the video less if the conclusions were against their expectations)
There's a chance that this guy's conclusions reflect what a proper study might have found, but it's just too hard to tell if it's a crab apple or not it's essentially probably a little better than chance.
qweertz@programming.dev · 1 pts · 288d
Exactly, when it comes to highly complex chemical and electrical engineering and physics (as is the case with Smartphones and their lithium-ion batteries), I will take it as an inditcator if it comes from well-established testers with professional equipment like GN (Gamers Nexus) or other established technical journals when talking outside of the video world, but will not accept it as a general and genuine technical (!) insight until it has gone through the due process of scientific publishing and peer review...
Even then I prefer meta-studies, since they reduce biases and general inaccuracies.