*The soldiers accused of carrying out the attack gave a press conference outside the Supreme Court on Sunday, wearing black balaclavas to avoid identification.
The group said they could not receive a fair trial because of the leaked video, and were victims of an unfair “drumhead court-martial”.*
The video of us doing horrendous shit is extremely hurtful to our defense!
While I agree they are unlikely to get a fair trial
They don't deserve fairness
If this wasn't leaked, they would go un-judged, which is the opposite end of that sliding scale they are complaining about by being outed as torturers.
I do wonder how much of it was "following orders" and how much was pure bloodlust. Neither excuses this, but the former would be indicative of bigger evil up the chain of command.
A very reasonable and sensible perspective, but what if that's still not going to be a fair trial either? We all have pretty strong opinions about torture, so I think we may need to go the extra mile in this case. If no unbiased jury can be found anywhere on planet Earth, then we'll have to send them to Mars for a fair trial instead. It doesn't even have to be elaborate, we can use the rules of the good old fashioned "trial by ordeal". If you can survive on Mars, that demonstrates you were innocent all along and you can come right back home. Otherwise this is going to get dragged out for years and years while they dig up even more evidence and who knows what else may get discovered. This is really the best option for everyone. All aboard to Mars.
A "fair trial" is not about having a jury or judge from Planet Neutral.
Is it about having a defence and a jury or judge who weigh the evidence of the prosecution against the counter-evidence of the defence properly, to come to a conclusion.
I appreciate your attempt to be serious, but I'm going to continue to recommend trial by ordeal and since you brought up the possibility of having it be conducted on Planet Neutral then I'll support that too, I admit I don't know where it is but I'm assuming it's going to be a really, really, really long trip, especially at sublight speeds.
There was a very high profile criminal rape trial in Australia this year which was abandoned permanently after one of the jurors was found to have snuck a magazine article into court. See Lerhmann vs Higgins.
That could have been a strategy arranged by the defence. But if you think the judiciary itself corruptly arranged it then think again...
There was a civil defamation trial later where it was found the accused did indeed commit rape "on the balance of probability" (vs the more strict criminal criterion of "beyond reasonable doubt").
So in this Israeli case the worry is now that the leak has damaged the likelihood of punishment for the perpetrators.
The concept that a soldier is able to disobey an illegal order is flawed. The first thing that happens to them is being thrown in jail awaiting court martial. It's then on them to prove the order illegal be ause the presumption is that it was legal. It becomes one person against the whole military apparatus.
The penalty if found guilty of refusing to obey orders? At minimum (in the US) a dishonorable discharge. At most a room on death row.
I still think soldier should refuse illegal orders, but the system is setup so they don't.
You should update your minimum. In the US military It’s actually an NJP to start. You can request court martial if desired and it goes from there.
Dishonorable discharge is very rare and you’re likely to end up with an OTH or BCD if the “infraction” is significant.
I’d rather have some jail time than shoot civilians tbh.
Not even an NJP if you're a Nuke. I've told admirals to their face that I wasn't going to break the book to follow their stupid orders. I realize we are the prima donnas of the military though, and I wasn't just a Nuke.
It’s someone who works on a nuclear powered ship. You have to take extra tests to get on a nuke and they only allow the smartest ASVAB scores to take the test.
Well we just have to make sure the consequences for obeying orders to commit war crimes are worse than what their superiors can dish out for disobeying those orders.
They're not that dissimilar, both indoctrinate exceptionalism and fascism into their kids from an early age, the difference being that usonians go overseas to liberate other people of their oil, whereas israelis have war zones (they create) geographically close, so a bit of incentive is required for them to join the meat grinder. Not much though.
This is what happens with Fascist thugs. American citizens in the US are getting shot in the back by ICE and beaten. People are dissappearing or held in detention with no camera footage to leak. Same shit, different continent.
The most fucked up part about this story is that hundreds of Israeli fascists literally stormed the military base the perpetrators were being imprisoned — committing domestic terrorism — in defence of the war criminals, demanding their release.
Israel is a fascist state because its founders spent the last century propagandising its citizens and the entire Jewish diaspora. It's not a surprise the Israeli majority think Palestinians are sub-human and their extermination is justified; that will not change for generations, and only after Israel is globally shunned, militarily neutered, required to return to its original borders, and pay to rebuild all of Palestines infrastructure.
They’re useless people. Look how much change Israel has accomplished in the last 60 years! They created a large economy, industrialized, created so many farms and made the land productive. None of the Arab states want to take all the Palestinians, which shows you what they really think. And the Palestinians are terrorists too.
Blood libel or ritual murder libel is an antisemitic canard which falsely accuses Jews of murdering Christians in order to use their blood in the performance of religious rituals.
Tomer-Yerushalmi appeared to be a model servant of the state. Only the second woman to rise to the position, in 2021, she was appointed chief military advocate – effectively the IDF’s top lawyer.
She was shaping up to be such a good little war criminal, but she just had go and develop a moral compass...
The country was also still in the grip of profound shock and, for many citizens, fury at the October 7 massacre, with extremely limited concern for the treatment of detained Palestinians.
Such a way with words. "extremely limited concern for the treatment of detained Palestinians" is a very pretty way to say "thirsting for the blood of innocent civilians"
Traditionally Israel’s government and military have considered the existence of an independent judiciary a crucial barrier to international legal tribunals investigating Israel for alleged abuses against Palestinians.
Where there is a robust national legal system willing and able to investigate and prosecute crimes, international courts are less likely to have jurisdiction to intervene.
“Don’t they understand we had no choice? That the only way to address the wave of international legal proceedings is by proving we can investigate ourselves?” the investigative reporter Ronen Bergman quoted the advocate general telling colleagues six weeks ago, in a report for Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper.
In recent decades many Israelis have seen the role of the military advocate general “as protecting soldiers from prosecution abroad”, said Prof Yagil Levy, head of the Institute for the Study of Civil-Military Relations at Israel’s Open University.
“In other words, the law is not upheld as a value in itself, but as a defence against international tribunals.”
Her office exists (to self-police just enough?) to avert international prosecution.
The level of suffering people all over the world go through on a daily basis in unimaginable and we're not capable of caring about it in depth and still functioning. Best you can do is be aware it exists and keep a wall up, only lowering it on occasions where you might be able to help. The fact that you care at all shows you're not a MAGA monster.
I'm so glad you got away from that. It's hard to not completely succumb to misanthropy sometimes and stories like yours remind me that there's some hope.
Then you have no idea how unpopular Bibi and his genocide is...
Like, he hasn't stopped elections for years because he's afraid he'll win too much, the next election him and his cronies are out of power.
They're supposed to be every year, last was 2022 right before the attack IDF was somehow unaware of despite having the best surveillance network in the world...
Like, it's kind of a big coincidence that happened right before Bibi was going to get voted out, and it's been an excuse to keep him in office another 4 years
If I understand correctly the real issue isn’t that he would d significant time but rather that Bibi could have no involvement in politics after release.
Netanyahu would likely get voted out because of his mishandling and killing of hostages and his corruption but the genocide itself still enjoys widespread popularity in israeli. If there was an election, a slightly different right wing zealot would likely win.
Hasn't been true for months... (Actually probably well over a year by now...)
Sixty-nine percent of Israelis support ending the war in exchange for a deal that releases all remaining hostages in Gaza, compared to 21% who oppose such a trade, according to a poll aired by Channel 12 Friday.
That seems to me to be about hostages, rather than the genocide.
One in five still think killing palestinians is more important than saving the lives of hostages, but that doesn't mean all of the other four in five oppose having killed all those palestinians.
People are upset about netanyahu prolonging the war and killing hostages for the sake of his career, but that's not the same thing as opposing genocide.
"As international commentators wring their hands over the war in Gaza, Israelis themselves are clear: the battle is not over, and it must be won.
A new poll released Wednesday night shows a striking 65% majority of Israelis support the capture of Gaza City and the central refugee camps—still largely under Hamas control—compared to 32% opposed. Just 3% said they had no opinion."
I don't think someone can be this ignorant so I will just assume you're a shill.
Netanyahu has already secured political control of Shin Bet (secret police) by swapping its director
he wants full control of the IDF, but some people haven't been willing to swear personal loyalty
most likely, the general advocate was one
those people are now removed, one by one, with various methods
As a result, the culture of impunity can continue.
The general advocate who was jailed - she was the person who received, among other documents (likely thousands of documents), the recommendations of the IDF internal investigators about the Rafah ambulance massacre (killing of 15 paramedics and destruction of 5 vehicles).
The IDF recommended to do nothing, claiming that they did nothing particularly wrong, just made some mistakes (executed 15 unarmed medics, some at close range with their hands bound, and tried to conceal the deed).
I don't know what she would have done, but my reading of the background and signals suggests she might have recommended criminal charges. That would have made her removal absolutely vital for the Netanyahu regime.
That's rather impressive for Lemmy. I've seen open calls for violent actions stick around and not get banned on this platform. Might have been a different instance than .world though.
I mean, lemmy.world has to follow German law and reminder: saying "Palestinian people suffer" not followed by "...because of Hamas" is legally problematic there. Still, it's easy to misjudge one's relative freedom of speech: I am (un)lucky to live in a country with a higher rating than the US and it doesn't stop populists from whining when people's rights groups challenge their false and/or racist posters.
The Nazis were German fascists who thought the Jewish population was inhibiting their destiny of creating a master race. Israel does not maintain any of these views so while they are Israeli fascists they are not Nazis.
The Nazis Zionists were German Israeli fascists who thought the Jewish Palestinian population was inhibiting their destiny of creating a master race. Israel does not maintain any of was founded based on these views so while they are Israeli fascists they are not also neoNazis.
It's not Nazi unless it's from the Rhine basin area, otherwise it's just sparkling genocide.
This is what you're arguing about. The intent in calling them Nazis isn't to insinuate they're members of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei and no one would assume that's the intent.
"Nazi" is common parlance as a shorthand for genocidal fascists because the Nazis are by far the most well-known genocidal fascists.
The meaningless semantic argument you're putting forth is either a useless distraction, or you're simply purposefully arguing in bad faith to derail the conversation.
No that claim is similarly ignorant. The Nazis are/were a specific party with a specific ideology that Israel is not perpetuating. It is factually incorrect to call them Nazis. This would be akin to labelling AOC a “communist”. AOC is not a communist nor is Israel a Nazi state.
This is of course ignoring the inherent question of racism that is always baked in to comparing the historic victims of Nazi racism to Nazis themselves.
You can hate Israel without making comparisons to the Nazis.
You explicitly acknowledge that they're just making comparisons while also suggesting they're calling Israel literal Nazis. Your trolling isn't even internally consistent.
The Nazis saw theor destiny as one that would cultivate the creation of an Aryan race. The Jewish faith believes they were chosen by their God to let everyone know what God expects of them. It’s very different.
Nah, it’s messed up to make direct comparisons between Nazis and Jewish people, Roma people or any other ethnicity that was targeted for elimination by Nazis.
Do you think maybe that the person who originally made that comment knows this? Everyone else knew what they were saying, and I'm pretty sure you did too.
I think the dipshit who made this claim is not any more intelligent or informed than the dipshits that agree with it. The only real question at hand is how much of this comparison is just racism masking itself as something based around morality.
This is just nation level virtue signaling, the Israelis do not give a single shit about the Palestinians.
And it's just going to get worse. The Israelis are going to eradicate the Gazans and then a few years later they're going to be crying over how guilty they feel. Not guilty enough to repatriate the Palestinians mind you, it will instead be about helping the Palestinians where they're now refugees. Israel is liberal Elmo, the state.
The torture video shaking Israel to its core because it leaked not because of the event happening. The leak is perceived as treason by the majority of Israel and they are fine with the tortures..
one of their ministers is publicly bragging about treating prisoners like shit and humiliating them, jails have posters of gaza in rumbles with the caption "the new gaza"
Shout out to the future terrorist attacks fueled by the abuse these Israeli's put these people through. You asked for this by treating people like animals. Just like I told my buddies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Kill a non-combatant and create 20 new combatants.
So tired of people thinking this is about religion. Zionism is a colonial ideology. Its about stealing land and resources. Religion is just the excuse.
you're just voicing another ideology that wants to exterminate others. Religion is your whipping boy, and you're lying to yourself if you think that getting rid of religion fixes the problem.
Bro, getting rid of religion with solve a fuck load of problems considering that people would not fucking use it to justify every goddamn thing they do that is immoral, step off weirdo, I'm not talking about murdering anybody holy shit. That is some textbook weird fucking projection my guy, what's going on in your life that you have such a weird outlook on things
I think wildly different. Getting rid of religion would mean people wouldn't be getting primed when they were young to believe in stupid spirits and magical fucking thinking. Also the concentration of power in any power structure is just fucked it's always going to invite unsavory characters
You think that preventing exposure to problematic concept prevents infection. you're right, in the short term. But in the long term, you destroy collective immunity to the concept.
Let it live, fight it when you have to, but don't think you can eradicate it. It's to be learned from, not simply destroyed. Otherwise, the experience is wasted, only to be repeated by the next generation.
Just so you know -- Ataturk tried to secularize a whole nation in the early 1920s, and though it persisted for a few decades, it came back HARD in 1980s and stepped up majorly in the 50 years since then.
It turns out that suppressing cultural beliefs that have persisted for millennia can and will breed resentment.
Give people the option to educate themselves out of the shackles of religion, but do not force them to do it out of your own sense of justice.
No, it won't solve the problems you think it will. You are misidentifying the problem as being religion. ..but the problem is human, and psychological in nature - and, because you can't see that, you're just as susceptible to it as any other sot out there, drunk on the idea that you've got this one weird trick that solves the issue, and doesn't involve you sorting your own shit out.
yep. But nuance isn't visceral enough to grab their attention, so they get owned by those who are nuanced enough to wield the generalized binary concepts.
Literally, a mind virus they can't recognize - likely crafted intentionally by someone at some point. But even if not, the irony is that this kind of wholesale buy-in to binary concepts is exactly what causes the behaviors they despise in religion.
I don't think it's religion so much as the combination of religion with a national identity.
It's odd to see so many conservatives become rabid defenders of Israel since October 7th, considering there is also a pretty blatant history of antisemitism within the conservative movement in the U.S., especially the Catholic far right.
I've never really understood how people can just ignore all the antisemitism present during Trump's first term. Refusing to denounce neo Nazis or a rally of young men with torches literally chanting "Jews will not replace us," then accusing anyone that even questions what Israel has done in Gaza of being antisemitic, (seriously wtf?). But, it just kind of hit me that this has very likely been a strategic choice by the new right, along with the sudden embrace of "Christianity" by much of silicon valley.
They see what Israel has accomplished by tying religious identity to patriotism and nationality. It creates a practically impenetrable shield for any accountability. Now the right is trying to re-write the history of the U.S. as a "Christian" nation, not because they give a fuck about religion, but because they want that same shield.
We're all supposed to believe that everything they create in their man made agenda is somehow carrying out the will of God. Therefore, anyone questioning the men "carrying out the will of God," are also questioning God. Questioning the U.S. under their leadership means you're attacking the U.S., questioning God's will (since we're now supposed to believe it's always been a "Christian" nation), and also somehow attacking the entire religion.
They don't give a fuck about Christ. They don't give a fuck about Israel. They just want to insulate themselves against the rest of the world in the same model of circular logic. If they succeed, Christian Nationalism for the U.S. accomplishes what Zionism has accomplished for Israel.
While I am also an atheist like you, I don't think that religion per se is the culprit here, just the interpretation of it by some individuals and the weaponisazation of it for sowing division and hatred. Oftentimes it is also used to control people and that's harmful.
The video isn't shocking Israel. That one of their top lawyers leaked it is. Israel is knowingly genocidal. Literally everyone serves in the military at some point in their lives, so they all know what they're doing. They just don't want the rest of us to see it openly.
Whether that argument succeeds, Israel’s reputation as a country with the rule of law is once again in the dock.
What reputation? Israel and Hamas are the same. There is no rule of law. They are hating brutalizing killing each other with impunity. I'm glad I don't live anywhere near them.
165 Comments
Dwayne_Elizondo_Mountain_Dew_Camacho@sh.itjust.works · 367 pts · 294d
*The soldiers accused of carrying out the attack gave a press conference outside the Supreme Court on Sunday, wearing black balaclavas to avoid identification.
The group said they could not receive a fair trial because of the leaked video, and were victims of an unfair “drumhead court-martial”.*
The video of us doing horrendous shit is extremely hurtful to our defense!
plz1@lemmy.world · 198 pts · 294d
While I agree they are unlikely to get a fair trial
I do wonder how much of it was "following orders" and how much was pure bloodlust. Neither excuses this, but the former would be indicative of bigger evil up the chain of command.
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · 141 pts · 294d
Everyone deserves a fair trial. If Israel cannot provide one then perhaps The Hague or Palestine can assist them in getting a fair trial.
cecilkorik@lemmy.ca · 14 pts · 294d
A very reasonable and sensible perspective, but what if that's still not going to be a fair trial either? We all have pretty strong opinions about torture, so I think we may need to go the extra mile in this case. If no unbiased jury can be found anywhere on planet Earth, then we'll have to send them to Mars for a fair trial instead. It doesn't even have to be elaborate, we can use the rules of the good old fashioned "trial by ordeal". If you can survive on Mars, that demonstrates you were innocent all along and you can come right back home. Otherwise this is going to get dragged out for years and years while they dig up even more evidence and who knows what else may get discovered. This is really the best option for everyone. All aboard to Mars.
kossa@feddit.org · 33 pts · 294d
A "fair trial" is not about having a jury or judge from Planet Neutral.
Is it about having a defence and a jury or judge who weigh the evidence of the prosecution against the counter-evidence of the defence properly, to come to a conclusion.
cecilkorik@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 294d
I appreciate your attempt to be serious, but I'm going to continue to recommend trial by ordeal and since you brought up the possibility of having it be conducted on Planet Neutral then I'll support that too, I admit I don't know where it is but I'm assuming it's going to be a really, really, really long trip, especially at sublight speeds.
kossa@feddit.org · 5 pts · 293d
Just ask in their embassy where it is located.
sqgl@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 293d
There was a very high profile criminal rape trial in Australia this year which was abandoned permanently after one of the jurors was found to have snuck a magazine article into court. See Lerhmann vs Higgins.
That could have been a strategy arranged by the defence. But if you think the judiciary itself corruptly arranged it then think again...
There was a civil defamation trial later where it was found the accused did indeed commit rape "on the balance of probability" (vs the more strict criminal criterion of "beyond reasonable doubt").
So in this Israeli case the worry is now that the leak has damaged the likelihood of punishment for the perpetrators.
TheBat@lemmy.world · 66 pts · 294d
wewbull@feddit.uk · 46 pts · 294d
Every military ever.
The concept that a soldier is able to disobey an illegal order is flawed. The first thing that happens to them is being thrown in jail awaiting court martial. It's then on them to prove the order illegal be ause the presumption is that it was legal. It becomes one person against the whole military apparatus.
The penalty if found guilty of refusing to obey orders? At minimum (in the US) a dishonorable discharge. At most a room on death row.
I still think soldier should refuse illegal orders, but the system is setup so they don't.
xenomor@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 294d
I for one am 100% done with giving soldiers any grace on these matters.
TheGoldenV@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 294d
You should update your minimum. In the US military It’s actually an NJP to start. You can request court martial if desired and it goes from there.
Dishonorable discharge is very rare and you’re likely to end up with an OTH or BCD if the “infraction” is significant. I’d rather have some jail time than shoot civilians tbh.
AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 294d
Not even an NJP if you're a Nuke. I've told admirals to their face that I wasn't going to break the book to follow their stupid orders. I realize we are the prima donnas of the military though, and I wasn't just a Nuke.
facelessbs@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 294d
What is a Nuke?
mx_smith@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 294d
It’s someone who works on a nuclear powered ship. You have to take extra tests to get on a nuke and they only allow the smartest ASVAB scores to take the test.
AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 294d
Navy Nuclear Power Program Member
bold_atlas@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 293d
Well we just have to make sure the consequences for obeying orders to commit war crimes are worse than what their superiors can dish out for disobeying those orders.
0x0@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 293d
The US has no draft, they choose to join, so they can go fuck themselves.
Assassins paid with taxpayer money, that's all they are.
wewbull@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 292d
Israel does. Compulsory service.
0x0@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 291d
They're not that dissimilar, both indoctrinate exceptionalism and fascism into their kids from an early age, the difference being that usonians go overseas to liberate other people of their oil, whereas israelis have war zones (they create) geographically close, so a bit of incentive is required for them to join the meat grinder. Not much though.
Kn1ghtDigital@lemmy.zip · 13 pts · 294d
You always have a choice.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 11 pts · 294d
This is what happens with Fascist thugs. American citizens in the US are getting shot in the back by ICE and beaten. People are dissappearing or held in detention with no camera footage to leak. Same shit, different continent.
mrdown@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 294d
Both equally idf terrorists like to terrorize paleatinins rape and torture them following Israel leaders policies
Oppopity@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 294d
Everyone deserves a fair trial ffs. That's how you prevent innocent people being thrown in jail.
0x0@lemmy.zip · 0 pts · 293d
90%, they're bred like that since they were born.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 15 pts · 293d
"How are we supposed to defend ourselves if you have all that evidence against us? It isn't fair!"
WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world · 210 pts · 294d
The most fucked up part about this story is that hundreds of Israeli fascists literally stormed the military base the perpetrators were being imprisoned — committing domestic terrorism — in defence of the war criminals, demanding their release.
Israel is a fascist state because its founders spent the last century propagandising its citizens and the entire Jewish diaspora. It's not a surprise the Israeli majority think Palestinians are sub-human and their extermination is justified; that will not change for generations, and only after Israel is globally shunned, militarily neutered, required to return to its original borders, and pay to rebuild all of Palestines infrastructure.
JayTreeman@fedia.io · 71 pts · 294d
Unfortunately, it's not just an Israeli thing. There's lots of Zionists in NA who say things like 'the Palestinians don't even know how to farm'...
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · 63 pts · 294d
They don’t like it when you point out that Israel stole the more fertile areas
driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br · 24 pts · 294d
And all the stolen land projects on the west bank are strategically built to close up water access
CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de · 34 pts · 294d
I just can’t even with people sometimes.
PeacefulForest@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 294d
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 14 pts · 294d
JFC. I'm trying to imagine someone saying this, like what could be going through their head. I just can't.
PeacefulForest@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 294d
WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 294d
The fascist mental illness on full display.
TheMinister@sh.itjust.works · 121 pts · 294d
“Showing video of our actions is blood libel”
Why does this type of bald faced deflection still work enough that they can keep doing it
MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works · 21 pts · 294d
because it's geopolitically convenient
samus12345@sh.itjust.works · 20 pts · 293d
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 14 pts · 293d
Jews who defend Israel's Gaza Genocide are doing more to spread anti-Semitism than anything since WWII.
frongt@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 293d
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel
The fuck? Nobody was making any kind of claim like that. Why did he bring it up?
TheMinister@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 293d
It’s the “fake news” of the right wing Zionist politicos.
loonsun@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 293d
Deflection to be used to say this is more antisemitism to his base
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 6 pts · 293d
It's absolutely shameless, they don't care how transparent their accusations are.
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de · 97 pts · 294d
She was shaping up to be such a good little war criminal, but she just had go and develop a moral compass...
Such a way with words. "extremely limited concern for the treatment of detained Palestinians" is a very pretty way to say "thirsting for the blood of innocent civilians"
TonyTonyChopper@mander.xyz · 57 pts · 294d
vs
Completely ignoring the starved, bombed, and shot ones not in detention (they are dead)
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · 21 pts · 294d
https://theonion.com/10-palestinians-dead-after-israeli-raid-reads-headli-1850145998/
lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com · 17 pts · 294d
It's not so straightforward.
Her office exists (to self-police just enough?) to avert international prosecution.
Doorbook@lemmy.world · 75 pts · 293d
it is shaken them to the core that someone leaked it. not because someone did it.
hayvan@feddit.nl · 65 pts · 293d
I doubt it.
SulaymanF@lemmy.world · 38 pts · 293d
Shaken that the world is seeing it and judging them, not that it happened.
Don’t forget that IDF soldiers executed Gazan ambulance workers after tying them up and hid the bodies and then denied the whole thing
Medic8teMe@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 292d
They've been executing kids for throwing rocks at tanks for decades.
ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works · 26 pts · 293d
My understanding the media focus is about how bad it is that this was leaked and that the leakers are bad because it hurts the state of Israel.
Which is exactly what I would expect.
ameancow@lemmy.world · 62 pts · 294d
khannie@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 293d
That's OK. You're doing the best you can. Try to go easy on yourself.
samus12345@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 293d
The level of suffering people all over the world go through on a daily basis in unimaginable and we're not capable of caring about it in depth and still functioning. Best you can do is be aware it exists and keep a wall up, only lowering it on occasions where you might be able to help. The fact that you care at all shows you're not a MAGA monster.
ameancow@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 293d
samus12345@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 293d
I'm so glad you got away from that. It's hard to not completely succumb to misanthropy sometimes and stories like yours remind me that there's some hope.
DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world · 52 pts · 294d
I'm guessing "shaking Israel to its core" is hyperbole.
givesomefucks@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 294d
Then you have no idea how unpopular Bibi and his genocide is...
Like, he hasn't stopped elections for years because he's afraid he'll win too much, the next election him and his cronies are out of power.
They're supposed to be every year, last was 2022 right before the attack IDF was somehow unaware of despite having the best surveillance network in the world...
Like, it's kind of a big coincidence that happened right before Bibi was going to get voted out, and it's been an excuse to keep him in office another 4 years
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · 21 pts · 294d
Voted out? Wasn’t he about to be removed from office to be sentenced for financial crimes just before the war started?
Formfiller@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 294d
Yes he should have been in prison just like trump
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 294d
If I understand correctly the real issue isn’t that he would d significant time but rather that Bibi could have no involvement in politics after release.
Formfiller@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 294d
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu
Hegar@fedia.io · 18 pts · 294d
Netanyahu would likely get voted out because of his mishandling and killing of hostages and his corruption but the genocide itself still enjoys widespread popularity in israeli. If there was an election, a slightly different right wing zealot would likely win.
givesomefucks@lemmy.world · -6 pts · 294d
Hasn't been true for months... (Actually probably well over a year by now...)
https://www.timesofisrael.com/69-of-israelis-54-of-coalition-voters-back-ending-war-in-exchange-for-hostages-poll/
That was like 8 months ago, but pretty sure it was much earlier
Hegar@fedia.io · 13 pts · 294d
That seems to me to be about hostages, rather than the genocide.
One in five still think killing palestinians is more important than saving the lives of hostages, but that doesn't mean all of the other four in five oppose having killed all those palestinians.
People are upset about netanyahu prolonging the war and killing hostages for the sake of his career, but that's not the same thing as opposing genocide.
givesomefucks@lemmy.world · -5 pts · 294d
Give me a minute to read all the sources and polling numbers you just provided...
Hegar@fedia.io · 14 pts · 294d
I'm just pointing out that poll doesn't support your argument. Prioritizing hostages is just not the same as opposing genocide.
From 5 months ago: 82% want to expell all palestinians in gaza and 47% want to kill every man woman and child
From june: 64% believe they are no innocents in gaza, which justifies killing even children.
givesomefucks@lemmy.world · -13 pts · 294d
So...
You admit you were wrong?
Glad to hear!
ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net · 5 pts · 293d
https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/poll-strong-majority-of-israelis-back-idf-push-into-gaza-city/
"As international commentators wring their hands over the war in Gaza, Israelis themselves are clear: the battle is not over, and it must be won.
A new poll released Wednesday night shows a striking 65% majority of Israelis support the capture of Gaza City and the central refugee camps—still largely under Hamas control—compared to 32% opposed. Just 3% said they had no opinion."
I don't think someone can be this ignorant so I will just assume you're a shill.
TonyTonyChopper@mander.xyz · 4 pts · 294d
Right. So they're already:
What does this incident do to change that? Nothing
givesomefucks@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 294d
I mean...
I feel like I'm going to have to explain everything about Israel's government for you to even have a chance of understanding this...
Do you even know how the dissolution of a Knesset works?
If not, don't you think you should learn how it works instead of making assumptions?
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -1 pts · 294d
Thatisn’t the contradiction you think it is ifyou understand parliamentary systems.
frongt@lemmy.zip · 17 pts · 294d
Yes. This just shows they've taken the mask off.
Back in July, Israeli protestors stormed the IDF military bases in order to free the abusers. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c2q07kd3ld6o
perestroika@slrpnk.net · 52 pts · 293d
My interpretation:
As a result, the culture of impunity can continue.
The general advocate who was jailed - she was the person who received, among other documents (likely thousands of documents), the recommendations of the IDF internal investigators about the Rafah ambulance massacre (killing of 15 paramedics and destruction of 5 vehicles).
The IDF recommended to do nothing, claiming that they did nothing particularly wrong, just made some mistakes (executed 15 unarmed medics, some at close range with their hands bound, and tried to conceal the deed).
I don't know what she would have done, but my reading of the background and signals suggests she might have recommended criminal charges. That would have made her removal absolutely vital for the Netanyahu regime.
JoMiran@lemmy.ml · 47 pts · 294d
Any possible relevant comment I want to make violates site policy. They are the 21st century Nazis.
ayyy@sh.itjust.works · 21 pts · 294d
Death, death, to the IDF!
AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 294d
That's rather impressive for Lemmy. I've seen open calls for violent actions stick around and not get banned on this platform. Might have been a different instance than .world though.
ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org · 11 pts · 294d
I mean, lemmy.world has to follow German law and reminder: saying "Palestinian people suffer" not followed by "...because of Hamas" is legally problematic there. Still, it's easy to misjudge one's relative freedom of speech: I am (un)lucky to live in a country with a higher rating than the US and it doesn't stop populists from whining when people's rights groups challenge their false and/or racist posters.
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -34 pts · 294d
The Nazis were German fascists who thought the Jewish population was inhibiting their destiny of creating a master race. Israel does not maintain any of these views so while they are Israeli fascists they are not Nazis.
verdi@feddit.org · 38 pts · 294d
The
NazisZionists wereGermanIsraeli fascists who thought theJewishPalestinian population was inhibiting their destiny of creating a master race. Israeldoes not maintain any ofwas founded based on these views so while they are Israeli fascists they arenotalso neoNazis.QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -22 pts · 294d
Your strikethroughs don’t mean ypur claim makes any sense. Israelis don’t believe they are destined to form a master race.
Evkob@lemmy.ca · 25 pts · 294d
This is what you're arguing about. The intent in calling them Nazis isn't to insinuate they're members of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei and no one would assume that's the intent.
"Nazi" is common parlance as a shorthand for genocidal fascists because the Nazis are by far the most well-known genocidal fascists.
The meaningless semantic argument you're putting forth is either a useless distraction, or you're simply purposefully arguing in bad faith to derail the conversation.
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 10 pts · 294d
That quote has me fucking rolling! Totally stealing it.
frongt@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 293d
It's a pretty well established meme, so go ahead.
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 293d
Second time today I'm part of the lucky 10,000!
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -15 pts · 294d
No that claim is similarly ignorant. The Nazis are/were a specific party with a specific ideology that Israel is not perpetuating. It is factually incorrect to call them Nazis. This would be akin to labelling AOC a “communist”. AOC is not a communist nor is Israel a Nazi state.
This is of course ignoring the inherent question of racism that is always baked in to comparing the historic victims of Nazi racism to Nazis themselves.
You can hate Israel without making comparisons to the Nazis.
Hazor@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 293d
You explicitly acknowledge that they're just making comparisons while also suggesting they're calling Israel literal Nazis. Your trolling isn't even internally consistent.
SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social · 19 pts · 294d
No, they just believe that they are God's chosen people. Totally different.
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -11 pts · 294d
The Nazis saw theor destiny as one that would cultivate the creation of an Aryan race. The Jewish faith believes they were chosen by their God to let everyone know what God expects of them. It’s very different.
SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social · 13 pts · 294d
Interesting that it's turning out so similarly, then.
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -9 pts · 294d
Im really curious as to your education if you think they are going similarly.
NotASharkInAManSuit@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 293d
It’s not, though. Both are supremacist ideologies with the same long term goals of eliminating those not in their in group.
Gerudo@lemmy.zip · 8 pts · 294d
They use terms like sub-human.
I've heard that term used by another group before....
xenomor@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 294d
Pedant gonna pedant.
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -32 pts · 294d
Nah, it’s messed up to make direct comparisons between Nazis and Jewish people, Roma people or any other ethnicity that was targeted for elimination by Nazis.
It isn’t pedantry as much as it is anti-racism.
verdi@feddit.org · 26 pts · 294d
Zionism is not a race.
pelespirit@sh.itjust.works · 22 pts · 294d
A person bullied can still be a bully. A person that was horrifically abused can still be an abuser.
The Israelis in power are now ethnic cleansing Palestinians. Being Jewish or not doesn't even factor into the equation.
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -23 pts · 294d
Ok buddy but nothing you write changes what “Nazi” means. Nazis are German fascists. Israeli fascists are not German fascists so they cannot be Nazis.
RedstoneValley@sh.itjust.works · 19 pts · 294d
Slightly incorrect. Anyone identifying with Nazi ideology is a Nazi. There are genuine American Neonazis for example.
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -10 pts · 294d
The fact you call them “Neo-Nazis” makes it clear there is a difference.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 11 pts · 294d
Do you think maybe that the person who originally made that comment knows this? Everyone else knew what they were saying, and I'm pretty sure you did too.
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -10 pts · 294d
I think the dipshit who made this claim is not any more intelligent or informed than the dipshits that agree with it. The only real question at hand is how much of this comparison is just racism masking itself as something based around morality.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 9 pts · 294d
It's not messed up to make valid comparisons
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -11 pts · 294d
That’s not a valid comparison. It is vaguely racist though.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 293d
Sure thing, bud.
HiddenLayer555@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 293d
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd1c-_56yYGTJNit_GjUB-th5C8M4SKapOibN8vsmicakWNCA/viewform
https://zionism.wtf/ was a better "Zionist or Nazi Quote" quiz IMO but it doesn't seem to load properly anymore.
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · -4 pts · 293d
And that is still irrelevant.
Naevermix@lemmy.world · 47 pts · 294d
This is just nation level virtue signaling, the Israelis do not give a single shit about the Palestinians.
And it's just going to get worse. The Israelis are going to eradicate the Gazans and then a few years later they're going to be crying over how guilty they feel. Not guilty enough to repatriate the Palestinians mind you, it will instead be about helping the Palestinians where they're now refugees. Israel is liberal Elmo, the state.
0x0@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 293d
No they won't.
nuko147@lemmy.world · 46 pts · 293d
The torture video shaking Israel to its core because it leaked not because of the event happening. The leak is perceived as treason by the majority of Israel and they are fine with the tortures..
verdi@feddit.org · 42 pts · 294d
I need to leave social media, it's hard for me to digest this. I can only muster hatred in the face of such brutality...
brachiosaurus@mander.xyz · 41 pts · 294d
one of their ministers is publicly bragging about treating prisoners like shit and humiliating them, jails have posters of gaza in rumbles with the caption "the new gaza"
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-LvbfPaST-c
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7G4r2nALEt0
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TODpIN1Wchc
PissingIntoTheWind@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 293d
Shout out to the future terrorist attacks fueled by the abuse these Israeli's put these people through. You asked for this by treating people like animals. Just like I told my buddies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Kill a non-combatant and create 20 new combatants.
T00l_shed@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 293d
All to justify the continued genocide.
Enkrod@feddit.org · 39 pts · 294d
Archive Link
20cello@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 294d
Thanks
SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org · 37 pts · 293d
All religion needs to go. That bullshit is holding humanity back so much.
Mrkawfee@feddit.uk · 60 pts · 293d
So tired of people thinking this is about religion. Zionism is a colonial ideology. Its about stealing land and resources. Religion is just the excuse.
dickalan@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 293d
Louder for the people in the back. All religion needs to go. That bullshit is holding humanity back so much.
bastion@feddit.nl · 10 pts · 293d
you're just voicing another ideology that wants to exterminate others. Religion is your whipping boy, and you're lying to yourself if you think that getting rid of religion fixes the problem.
dickalan@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 293d
Bro, getting rid of religion with solve a fuck load of problems considering that people would not fucking use it to justify every goddamn thing they do that is immoral, step off weirdo, I'm not talking about murdering anybody holy shit. That is some textbook weird fucking projection my guy, what's going on in your life that you have such a weird outlook on things
Garbagio@lemmy.zip · 13 pts · 293d
dickalan@lemmy.world · -4 pts · 293d
I think wildly different. Getting rid of religion would mean people wouldn't be getting primed when they were young to believe in stupid spirits and magical fucking thinking. Also the concentration of power in any power structure is just fucked it's always going to invite unsavory characters
Garbagio@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 293d
bastion@feddit.nl · 2 pts · 293d
You think that preventing exposure to problematic concept prevents infection. you're right, in the short term. But in the long term, you destroy collective immunity to the concept.
Let it live, fight it when you have to, but don't think you can eradicate it. It's to be learned from, not simply destroyed. Otherwise, the experience is wasted, only to be repeated by the next generation.
Garbagio@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 293d
tetris11@feddit.uk · 8 pts · 293d
Just so you know -- Ataturk tried to secularize a whole nation in the early 1920s, and though it persisted for a few decades, it came back HARD in 1980s and stepped up majorly in the 50 years since then.
It turns out that suppressing cultural beliefs that have persisted for millennia can and will breed resentment.
Give people the option to educate themselves out of the shackles of religion, but do not force them to do it out of your own sense of justice.
zqps@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 293d
So they keep doing the same things using a dozen other excuses as they already do.
bastion@feddit.nl · 2 pts · 293d
No, it won't solve the problems you think it will. You are misidentifying the problem as being religion. ..but the problem is human, and psychological in nature - and, because you can't see that, you're just as susceptible to it as any other sot out there, drunk on the idea that you've got this one weird trick that solves the issue, and doesn't involve you sorting your own shit out.
frongt@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 292d
After all, if god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.
Doorbook@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 293d
OP talking about religion for a acts that has nothing to do with religion!
BetaDoggo_@lemmy.world · 23 pts · 293d
Religion is just the excuse used to do bad things. Without religion the ones doing the bad things will find a new excuse.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · -2 pts · 293d
And you just offered an excuse to do nothing in the face of relentless abuse.
bastion@feddit.nl · 12 pts · 293d
no, they in no way implied that bad people shouldn't be stopped.
null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 6 pts · 293d
These comments really illustrate how badly Lemmy has become a homogenised echo chamber.
Users just subscribe to these generalised binary concepts like religion = terrible, and any attempt to demonstrate the nuance is downvoted.
x_pikl_x@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 293d
Like being in detention and expecting the inhabitants to be upstanding citizens.
bastion@feddit.nl · 1 pts · 293d
yep. But nuance isn't visceral enough to grab their attention, so they get owned by those who are nuanced enough to wield the generalized binary concepts.
Literally, a mind virus they can't recognize - likely crafted intentionally by someone at some point. But even if not, the irony is that this kind of wholesale buy-in to binary concepts is exactly what causes the behaviors they despise in religion.
ClassifiedPancake@discuss.tchncs.de · 4 pts · 293d
What is it you’re doing? Making religion disappear is not a thing that will ever happen, even if you write it down a million times on Lemmy.
Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de · 8 pts · 293d
If it's not religion, something else would be the guise under which the same people would operate.
AcidiclyBasicGlitch@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 293d
I don't think it's religion so much as the combination of religion with a national identity.
It's odd to see so many conservatives become rabid defenders of Israel since October 7th, considering there is also a pretty blatant history of antisemitism within the conservative movement in the U.S., especially the Catholic far right.
I've never really understood how people can just ignore all the antisemitism present during Trump's first term. Refusing to denounce neo Nazis or a rally of young men with torches literally chanting "Jews will not replace us," then accusing anyone that even questions what Israel has done in Gaza of being antisemitic, (seriously wtf?). But, it just kind of hit me that this has very likely been a strategic choice by the new right, along with the sudden embrace of "Christianity" by much of silicon valley.
They see what Israel has accomplished by tying religious identity to patriotism and nationality. It creates a practically impenetrable shield for any accountability. Now the right is trying to re-write the history of the U.S. as a "Christian" nation, not because they give a fuck about religion, but because they want that same shield.
We're all supposed to believe that everything they create in their man made agenda is somehow carrying out the will of God. Therefore, anyone questioning the men "carrying out the will of God," are also questioning God. Questioning the U.S. under their leadership means you're attacking the U.S., questioning God's will (since we're now supposed to believe it's always been a "Christian" nation), and also somehow attacking the entire religion.
They don't give a fuck about Christ. They don't give a fuck about Israel. They just want to insulate themselves against the rest of the world in the same model of circular logic. If they succeed, Christian Nationalism for the U.S. accomplishes what Zionism has accomplished for Israel.
filister@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 292d
While I am also an atheist like you, I don't think that religion per se is the culprit here, just the interpretation of it by some individuals and the weaponisazation of it for sowing division and hatred. Oftentimes it is also used to control people and that's harmful.
Part4@infosec.pub · 25 pts · 294d
Paywall.
Yeah of course Israel is shocked.
A_A@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 293d
"1. Paywall." https://web.archive.org/web/20251104081845/https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/the-torture-video-shaking-israel-to-its-core-20251104-p5n7ih.html
samus12345@sh.itjust.works · 24 pts · 294d
Cyberflunk@lemmy.world · 21 pts · 293d
Certamen@feddit.org · 18 pts · 294d
Evil_Shrubbery@thelemmy.club · 6 pts · 293d
... ppl can shake from excitement too ...
:(
GaryGhost@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 294d
The thumbnail alone looks horrifying
QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 294d
This is not a video you need to see.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 12 pts · 293d
"We promise that we will never do it again (with the cameras on)."
clot27@lemmy.zip · 9 pts · 292d
I dont think it has shocked israel. And even if it has, I am sure not for torture but for leaking.
Gammelfisch@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 293d
Apartheid state and I am the least bit surprised. This kind of shit has been going on since the Zionist arrived in the early 20th Century.
Certamen@feddit.org · 1 pts · 294d
CaptainBlinky@lemmy.myserv.one · 1 pts · 292d
The video isn't shocking Israel. That one of their top lawyers leaked it is. Israel is knowingly genocidal. Literally everyone serves in the military at some point in their lives, so they all know what they're doing. They just don't want the rest of us to see it openly.
Redditsux@piefed.ca · -3 pts · 294d
What reputation? Israel and Hamas are the same. There is no rule of law. They are hating brutalizing killing each other with impunity. I'm glad I don't live anywhere near them.
T00l_shed@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 293d
Hamas was in response to the israel treatment of Palestinians
0x0@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 293d
And financed by Netanyahu.
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca · -30 pts · 294d
Israel is our greatest ally and only democracy in the Middle East. Not like that washing machine CPU country, they're just evil.
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 14 pts · 294d
I am so lost. What country are you referring to as "washing machine CPU"?
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca · -16 pts · 294d
You are indeed lost. What year do you think it is?
LaserTurboShark69@sh.itjust.works · 12 pts · 294d
What is the washing machine CPU country?
cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 294d
Maybe it's Taiwan? They build a lot of CPUs there. Still lost on the washing part. I guess parts need to be cleaned before assembled?
Who the fuck knows what this person is saying lol.
Evil_Shrubbery@thelemmy.club · 8 pts · 293d
Yeah, and with all those CPUs do you really think they still do this manually like their great grandparents had to??
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 5 pts · 293d
This is triggering me so hard.
eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 10 pts · 293d
No you genuinely aren't making sense.
What do you mean by "washing machine CPU country?"
Why washing machines specifically?
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 292d
I guess I woke up in the Fringe alternate universe.
eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 292d
No, you're just dumb.