The propaganda is so bad that there are a non negligible amount of people that read this story and their first thought will be to blame this person for being a "traitor to America" for not supporting our economy by paying for overpriced healthcare, or because they don't have a good enough job to provide insurance.
There are working class people out there with the boot so far down their throat they will get angry at anyone pointing to how ridiculous of a world we live in.
It's like our entire culture in America is just filled with sunk cost fallacy and the false belief that as soon as we make things better that that will be right after THEY just became a billionaire.
Everyone is so tired and exhausted from overworking and getting nothing in return that the only dream they have is of being in the position of their boss one day and get to be the dickhead that fucks everyone else over.
We literally can't even imagine very basic things that most of the world enjoys.
It boggles the mind that anyone could defend our current medical system, let alone our dental system. Even with dental insurance, you're lucky to get more than 50% covered for these type of procedures and there is an annual payout cap which even a root canal and crowns can hit. A single implants in the US will cost much more than this guy claims to have spent.
There are working class people out there with the boot so far down their throat they will get angry at anyone pointing to how ridiculous of a world we live in.
"You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."
That's why Mamdani style "sewer socialism" is so important right now for breaking people out of it. We start with showing the country that we can fill pots holes, provide childcare, and reduce grocery prices, they will break out of their matrix pretty quickly.
Americans aren't use to having a government that actually functions. But, because their expectations are so low the bar for changing their minds is also very low. We just have to win power to make enough people believe it's actually possible. And once that happens, well, we'll be able to make changes nationally one way or another.
That's roughly 23k MXN, which is also what some people here earn in an entire month. Just trying to clarify that while it's certainly not as expensive as it is in the US compared to the average person's salary, it's still not as cheap for people who actually live here either
Not to undermine your point, dental services are still kinda expensive for regular people, but this is also Tijuana, a border city where stuff is more expensive.
And that dental clinic probably inflates their prices since they provably service a number of foreigners.
Sure, but 21,000 usd as he was quoted is closer to the average annual salary in America. So it's still disgustingly more affordable for a local Mexican to afford their own dental care.
That's helpful context. So all that for about 1 months salary in Mexico. Meanwhile the USA estimate was multiple months salary. Looks like about 4-5 months for the average American.
I'm aware. This was never intended to be a post bashing Americans, but just to provide further context on the economy of the place oop went to get their dental stuff done
I'm aware that even tho that's still expensive for Mexicans, it's more expensive for Americans to stay there. I just didn't vibe with the whole "guys it's way cheaper in Mexico" undertone
Yeah that's what I expected. Yes we're being fleeced in America, but also low cost of living, lower wages, and cheaper education can all drastically reduce the price of dentistry
We're not the product. We're the cows getting milked dry, and once they have taken everything they can from us, we're discarded without a second thought.
Years ago I worked out the math for a doctor to rent all his own equipment ( including MRI! ), pay for full time staff including accountants etc. and the money still didn't add up.
If doctors actually were paid $1,000/hr for their time, I'd understand because at least they are doing the labor. But that's not what is happening. Insurance companies are taking the profit.
This is by design. The massive amount of unpaid medical debt makes this necessary. We are all paying for the healthcare of people who can't afford it PLUS the profits going to the insurance industry and the debt collectors. That is why it is so stupid that people refuse to do Medicare for All or something similar.
When can we start using the same rhetoric towards Americans as they're having towards Mexicans? Or the nationalists/fascists/racists have towards immigrants in general?
I mean, if we're going to see an influx of Americans going to other countries to benefit of the things which are better outside of America.... Isn't that literally the whole argument anti-immigration people have?
I dunno. The irony kinda has me smiling like The Senate at an opera light show.
Oh the irony (and hypocrisy) is fucking thick, my guy.
My MAGA father-in-law wants to end abortion rights for all Americans in all cases. But when confronted by my wife that her and the rest of his 4 daughters might find their life in danger from an Ectopic pregnancy or other dangerous medical condition in which the only remedy is terminating a pregnancy, he calmly assured her that if they needed an abortion he'd fly them out of the country to get them one (but also the American Healthcare System is still the best in the world, btw). Meanwhile, he and those like him disparage those moving the US seeking opportunities and safety for their families instead of staying fixing their country that WE largely are responsible for destabilizing and putting into poverty.
And he doesn't put stock in us being held responsible for the state of those nations as the things we did to them happened decades ago (for the most part). Also he doesn't believe that Native Americans should have any claim to lands within the US or any sovereignty under US law. In unrelated matters, though, Isreal has a right to those lands because they were stolen from them thousands of years ago, and they can and should have a one state rule over the region and people there despite other people living there already, and also it is totally cool that they get put under a decades long blockade because those people voted a group into power that opposed their occupation, and they do not have a right to resist this blockade or occupation in an way with force.
If you are looking for consistent, thoughtful policy positions, I'm afraid the modern American Right has little to provide you.
The Palestinian and Native American sovereignty rights, or lack-there-of is consistent. The claim to the lands stolen from them (the Isrealis) not so much.
It's just 'might makes right' combined with 'our guy won' and a helping of Western imperialism. You don't need to be a philosopher to see the underlying reasoning.
From what I've heard, you can see about the same thing in Ayn Rand's lectures where she retroactively excused colonization of the Americas because "they didn't do anything valuable with all the land". You know, same Ayn Rand that wrote the bible of US corporatocracy. (Alas, I don't think I have long enough time left to waste on Rand's lectures myself.)
Wait till people find out the technology and cost for health care in China.
My father will get his hearing and heart checked here, because in my birth country he has to wait 4 months to get an appointment and than likely another 3 months for the next step.
Here we get everything done in one day including all scans, results, meeting with the specialist and possible medication.
Edit: link because medical tourism is becoming a real thing now in China.
I can't believe how ridiculous the costs are in the US. It's a total scam.
My dentist gave me a big estimate, and I said, "I'll never be able to afford that," and he said "Just go to Mexico, get it done for a quarter of the price."
Sometimes, I think America loathe Mexico not because they are brown and poor, but because America is envious that a poor country have affordable healthcare than the supposedly richest country in the world.
I'm in Australia, with socialised medicine, but not socialised dentistry. The cost price of a single implant from a reputable supply company is about that price. That doesn't take into account surgery staff, healthcare staff, the actual surgery etc.
A filling material capsule is about $5. The cost of a filling is still $200-300. So, the cost price of the implant is only a tiny part od the picture.
21k is probably excessive but I'd want to see the laln. 1k is shoddy materials or only part of the story.
Is it really so hard to believe that something like that can cost so low and maybe not be shoddy? In EU you get low cost and higher cost countries and ofc it differs, but overall that cost mentioned in the post is imho reasonable.
Yes, it's definitely shoddy at that price. They either used cheapo brands of inplants that aren't made well or the poster is not being accurate.
Things can definitely be cheaper. I get a bimonthky injection that costs about AUD2500. I pay $25. That doesn't mean the manufacturer receives $25. That's not how socialised medicine works. The government subsidises it to make it $25.
A tourist going to get dentistry overseas gets no such subsidy. The cost of materials, staff, equipment and profit are all built into that price. Dentistry, and particularly surgical dentistry, is a capital intensive endeavour. Its not financially viable to have quality work at that price.
You can have cheap things like cleans, which need less consumables and less equipment. Implant surgery can be cheaper, but not that much vheaper.
A composite compule for single use. For a ceramic inlay or only or crown, an emax ingot is about EUR30 for me in private-dentistry-expensive Australia. Off brands are cheaper and most dentists dont use them despite an incredibly overbearing TGA here that limits what materials can be used or improved (similar tonusa fda). Australia does not allow practitioners to import goods from overseas, even if from same factory. Only those with a licence for that specific product may do so to prevent shoddy materials. It leads to higher expense here, but also higher safety.
The Australian dental association actually lobby for it to be included. However, they have valid concerns about fees being appropriate for the costs.
People think dentists are greedy and rich due to the cost of care provision. The profit margin is not that high and salaries, like everyone's, have not risen in line with inflation. They started high, historically, though.
They do pretty well and are quite comfortable generally, so they don't need sympathy but they are not the wealth hoarders that you think they are.
I don't know. Does it include the restorarions, hoapital expenses etc. A full mouth rehab can run 50k, outside usa. A check up costs significantly less. With proper socialised dentistry, nobody should need that level of care. It's neglect, often due to cost and other socioeconomic issues that lead people to have poorer dental health, requiring that level of intervention.
Something to be aware of when it comes to healthcare in the US: the entire industry is a huge money-making machine. It's not just the infamous insurance companies making a profit on people's health or lack of. It's pharmaceutical companies, medical supply companies, medical equipment companies, medical services companies (like software), and last but not least: medical professionals. Everyone making a profit at every level.
Take a look at this list of top 25 highest paid occupations in the US and weep. Summary: 23 of the 25 highest paid occupations are medical professionals. The only ones that are not are chief executives and airline pilots, and those two aren't even in the top 10.
For the sake of another example, I know someone who was quoted $4,000 for some dental work in the US and went to their birth country to have the work done instead. The bill was $90. Granted, it was a dental training school so that probably made it extra cheap, but they said the quality of work was better than they were used to getting in the US. It's literally mind-boggling.
This article mentions a couple of other factors that go into the price in the US that I had forgotten about: expensive medical / dental schools and medical malpractice insurance.
part of why they are so highly paid is that malpractice can go after almost all of their assets and medical school/residency enrollment slots are federally capped.
blame the government for not having anti trust lawsuits against the medical equipment and for having caps on how many people can become doctors per year.
Surprisingly, yall seem to learn a bit of geography every time you find another country to belittle. However, you'll never do any damage that my homeland's rich and deep folklore hasn't already done, what with being familiar with all the issues from inside.
They're trying to bring it to all "western" countries. The US ideology is being pushed hard everywhere in order for US firms to come in and start monetising everything (among which, health, of course).
In Canada ambulatory services have been privatized for a long time. They are not nearly as expensive as American ambulances, but they will send you a bill.
Friend of mine went on vacation to Taiwan and Thailand for like three weeks and got dental done then. It was cheaper to be out of work and buy plane tickets and hotel stays than to have dental done in the US
I have dental insurance and it's near-fucking-worthless for this level of work (which I've had a lot of in the last few years). It pays only a small percentage of the costs and the payout is capped at $1500 per year, nowhere near enough to cover the cost of a single implant. I wouldn't even bother having the insurance in the first place but it's a free benefit provided by my employer.
Chain dentists are a fucking abomination, though. You're guaranteed to get work you don't actually need because of the corporate pressures they're under to generate revenue.
I got dental implants in Costa Rica. One of the best medical systems in the world and flying there and back, hotel for ~10 days, rental car, and the two implants was cheaper than one implant from the sketchiest dentist I could find in the USA
Now I need 2 more and I’m considering going back. Wonderful country but driving there is a nightmare
Hate to break it to you, but humans have been using the em-dash since before AI existed. AI output is modeled after effective communicators, and those people still exist.
"Our healthcare system isnt broken. Its a business model"
If anything the em dash in that second sentence makes it seem more human, because its a double "it's not this – it's that"-ism.
I don't care if the text is AI written or not but that style of communicating is not normal – its AI.
It's entirely normal. It's been a common rhetorical device for centuries. It may be more common now due to AI, but language is memetic and people adopt popular styles. It's impossible to say whether this is AI or not.
To be clear, I am more anti-AI than most people, but AI-hunts like this are only a waste of time. And frankly, they only distract from the message, which in this case is more worthy of discussion than whether or not the messenger used AI to compose his message.
I hate that everyone thinks an em dash is the mark of the beast. I've been using it for as long as I can remember, but people at work will give me shit saying that I am using an AI to respond.
There should be a distinction between posts written by humans, and those written by AI. Political discussions should be for humans, not robots.
If this person wanted to make a comparison between dental prices, they could've written it out themselves. But instead the relied on an AI. That's not innovation, that's laziness!
Today, online discussions are broken – you can't know which comments are written by humans any more. Luckily we have people like you who can tell the difference.
Seems rather to be the LinkedIn style, with barely more than a short sentence per paragraph, and infused with the unmistakable pathos that feels a bit reserved but is definitely too pompous for business talk.
The formatting is similar to the BBC style aka modern news sites, but idk why it got adopted on LinkedIn when posters are presumably not paid per ad impression.
Same in Europe. UK calls the perfect white teeth “Turkey Teeth” for a reason. And we all have universal healthcare here around. So this is not the only reason. Purchase power and GDP matter, too.
But "perfect white teeth" aka veneers are often a cosmetic procedure and are thus generally not covered by universal healthcare (there are exceptions ofcourse).
I'd argue a rootcanal treatment is very necessary so I don't think they are comparable situations.
That is ofcourse just the opinion of a random internet person.
I broke two front teeth and had a wisdom tooth knocked loose and later extracted in a fall at work. Workman's comp insurance is supposed to pay for it all (many thousands of $$$) but so far they've balked for the last eight months. Meanwhile my dentist has eaten the entire cost. Workman's comp insurance treats people only through preferred providers, but they have no preferred dentists or oral surgeons so it's a bit of a grey area.
And they still wonder why they get Brian Thomson’d.
Jokes aside, why is there not a single Mamdani in the US inventing now insurance should work, with private/contracted hospitals or doctors, forcing the premiums down so that it can be used by many people? I mean, it feels like 99.9% of the people would immediately switch to something like that.
We have something like that, it's called Medicare. You just have to be 65 to get into it. A very reasonable proposal, first mooted in the '90s, was called Medicare-for-all; the idea was that they would just lower the eligibility age by two years every year to allow the country to ease gradually into universal healthcare. If we had done this back then we would have universal healthcare today.
Some people blame Hilary Clinton for this, because she allegedly rejected this option and instead pushed for immediate universal health care back when her husband first became President. I think this is probably a distraction from the real culprits. The private insurance companies fought like hell against universal healthcare and would have fought just as hard (and just as successfully) against Medicare-for-all.
Dentist procedures are being done in the Balkans for people further north. And all countries there have universal health care. But waiting lines for free procedures are reality. So many opt to pay out of pocket to get it sooner.
Yup, my aunt and uncle are traveling out of the country for the first time in their lives. My uncle had may have had a few too many Irish pub beers (drinks only Coors) and ended up falling on some stairs and needed 14 staples in his head and a ride in the ambulance.
Probably should give you all a warning about traveling for medical work
1: You will not have access to the same level of after care when you get home. There may also be incompatible medication and procedures to your home country.
2: If something goes wrong you will need to deal with it out there. It may be cheeper for the procedure but you will not have the same resources to emergency or long term care. The cost of repatriation is astronomical compared to the cost of local care.
3: When you get back a local doctor or dentists is not going to touch this as this is someone else's issue and they don't want the liability of something more going wrong. You may need to then find more specialist care and more expensive work to fix what was broken.
4: Good luck getting any compensation. Different country means different legal system. You would need more legal resources to sue a foreign medical provider. Then would lose any savings you made as lawyers get there cut any a court is unlikely to pay out for the cost of what is to them excessive cost in a foreign country.
By all means get the work done but there is risks.
There is risk but you will still receive standard care if you got the initial care somewhere else. It’s just factually wrong that a medical professional, dentist or otherwise, is going to refuse work because somebody else did the initial work unless they’re a quak. It happens all the damn time.
Exactly. You're not looking for a contractor to fix the mess the last contractor left when you fired him for fucking up your driveway, this is the medical field. Doctors fix others doctors mistakes all the time. What are you supposed to do, go back to the quack who caused the problem, or get a new, competent one to fix the problem?
Maybe partly true both ways? Right now, we're going through doctors refusing to try procedures that may have been skipped along her way to pain management care. We're trying to see what we missed and consider all options, but when we bring up her history and "pain management" comes up (which can include medication and procedures), we've been turned away for the clear reason that they won't try to treat if these "pain management" procedures have already been done. But in other cases, they have said "why didn't they try steroid injection first, that would be the standard before a nerve block and ablation" and took the case anyway.
For dental work, you could fly back to the same doctor in Mexico multiple times for the cost of a US doc, even in the unlikely event you do have complications.
Hell, with these numbers, you could get 16 dentists, have them compete head to head in a 4-level tournament, and still afford an espresso machine for the winner.
And the idea that no doc will look at you after going overseas is fear mongering. I went to Argentina or facial feminization surgery (FFS) and Thailand for sex reassignment surgery (SRS.) This was long before insurance companies started getting forced to cover trans care under anti-discrimination laws. So I had to pay for everything out of pocket. The only hope for me to get treatment was to go overseas.
And I've had plenty of follow-up treatment in the states over the years. I had some complications from FFS and had to get some follow up treatment by a US doctor and dentist. And after SRS I've had regular gynecological care, including a pap smear. No doctor who treats trans patients has ever turned me away because I got treatment overseas.
Dental insurance in the US is almost universally worthless if you need serious dental treatment. It's not real insurance. It's just a prepayment plan for basic services. Most plans have insultingly low annual limits like $1000 or $1500, when even a single implant will cost many multiples of this.
There are a few rare folks that have some gold plated dental coverage. But the default assumption should be that every American is effectively uninsured when it comes to dental insurance. We don't actually have dental insurance in the US, as a general rule.
Honestly, dental insurance as as government single-payer system makes even more sense than regular health insurance as a single-payer system.
The real problem with dental insurance is that most dental procedures can be put off for a long time. People can go years with rotted falling out teeth. Foregoing dental work can cause you a lot of pain, but it's unlikely to actually kill you. This is much less the case with regular health insurance. If you get a cancer diagnosis, you need treatment now. You can't wait five years, save on the premiums, and then sign up for a plan for a single year and get all your cancer treatments done at once. With dentistry you can. This is why dental insurance tends to have annual maximums. Without them, people could forego dental insurance for years, wait until they have a whole bunch of dental work that needs doing, and then only pay for a dental plan long enough to get those treatments covered.
But with a single-payer dental system, that adverse selection problem disappears. With single payer, everyone has to pay for dental insurance every year via taxes. There's no saving up dental work for one expensive year once a decade.
Simply due to the nature of dental care, it's very difficult to make private insurance work as true insurance in the dental market.
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109 Comments
wheezy@lemmy.ml · 82 pts · 3d
The propaganda is so bad that there are a non negligible amount of people that read this story and their first thought will be to blame this person for being a "traitor to America" for not supporting our economy by paying for overpriced healthcare, or because they don't have a good enough job to provide insurance.
There are working class people out there with the boot so far down their throat they will get angry at anyone pointing to how ridiculous of a world we live in.
It's like our entire culture in America is just filled with sunk cost fallacy and the false belief that as soon as we make things better that that will be right after THEY just became a billionaire.
Everyone is so tired and exhausted from overworking and getting nothing in return that the only dream they have is of being in the position of their boss one day and get to be the dickhead that fucks everyone else over.
We literally can't even imagine very basic things that most of the world enjoys.
jol@discuss.tchncs.de · 24 pts · 3d
Millenials are destroying the American healthcare invdustry by dropping dead before they'd see a doctor. TRAITORS
zod000@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 7 pts · 3d
It boggles the mind that anyone could defend our current medical system, let alone our dental system. Even with dental insurance, you're lucky to get more than 50% covered for these type of procedures and there is an annual payout cap which even a root canal and crowns can hit. A single implants in the US will cost much more than this guy claims to have spent.
AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 3d
Same old, same old it seems.
wheezy@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 2d
That's why Mamdani style "sewer socialism" is so important right now for breaking people out of it. We start with showing the country that we can fill pots holes, provide childcare, and reduce grocery prices, they will break out of their matrix pretty quickly.
Americans aren't use to having a government that actually functions. But, because their expectations are so low the bar for changing their minds is also very low. We just have to win power to make enough people believe it's actually possible. And once that happens, well, we'll be able to make changes nationally one way or another.
Leonixster@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 53 pts · 3d
That's roughly 23k MXN, which is also what some people here earn in an entire month. Just trying to clarify that while it's certainly not as expensive as it is in the US compared to the average person's salary, it's still not as cheap for people who actually live here either
captain_oni@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 27 pts · 3d
Not to undermine your point, dental services are still kinda expensive for regular people, but this is also Tijuana, a border city where stuff is more expensive.
And that dental clinic probably inflates their prices since they provably service a number of foreigners.
Leonixster@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 14 pts · 3d
I'm aware, but if I started talking about that I would've ended with an entire wall of text, and I didn't feel like doing that
Still, thanks for providing additional context
thedirtyknapkin@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 3d
Sure, but 21,000 usd as he was quoted is closer to the average annual salary in America. So it's still disgustingly more affordable for a local Mexican to afford their own dental care.
confusedbytheBasics@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 2d
That's helpful context. So all that for about 1 months salary in Mexico. Meanwhile the USA estimate was multiple months salary. Looks like about 4-5 months for the average American.
architect@thelemmy.club · 6 pts · 2d
Walking into a hospital in America is a month of work for me before they even do anything and i make good money for an American.
rishado@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
plenty of people in the US live off that same amount
Leonixster@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 2d
And plenty of Mexicans live with less than half that. My comment was never meant to be a competition to begin with
kbobabob@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 2d
Guess what, that's also roughly a months salary for some people in the US too. Not only do we have shitty healthcare but we also have shit wages.
Leonixster@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 2d
I'm aware. This was never intended to be a post bashing Americans, but just to provide further context on the economy of the place oop went to get their dental stuff done
I'm aware that even tho that's still expensive for Mexicans, it's more expensive for Americans to stay there. I just didn't vibe with the whole "guys it's way cheaper in Mexico" undertone
mohammed_alibi@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
US minimum wage $7.25 x 160 hours = $1160.
Leonixster@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 2d
I mean, if we're going off of minimum wage, then the MX numbers are also incredibly lower.
Around 13k on the northern border states, around 10k the rest, both monthly. That's roughly 750 and 550 USD respectively.
And that's assuming the job is respecting the law.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3d
Yeah that's what I expected. Yes we're being fleeced in America, but also low cost of living, lower wages, and cheaper education can all drastically reduce the price of dentistry
chiliedogg@lemmy.world · 33 pts · 2d
Los Algodones, Mexico is a border town that's economy is based entirely around dental tourism. It has a population of 5,000 and has 600 dentists.
Katrisia@lemmy.today · 8 pts · 2d
It's so funny the town is called "The Cottons". I imagine the cotton balls dentists use, haha.
Cricket@lemmy.zip · 7 pts · 2d
Thank you, I was going to mention that too. "Molar City".
BradleyUffner@lemmy.world · 26 pts · 3d
We're not the product. We're the cows getting milked dry, and once they have taken everything they can from us, we're discarded without a second thought.
architect@thelemmy.club · 8 pts · 2d
And these people will do it to every country if not stopped.
VitoRobles@lemmy.today · 22 pts · 3d
Had some leg problems and went to a specialist. Not an emergency, but it was recommended by my doctor.
The virtual call (yes I know) cost $400.
Then the scans cost $1800.
Finally, the procedure cost $7200.
Nearly $10k. And insurance only paid for 2/3 of it. The virtual call was a 30-min call where they repeat everything I answered on the form.
Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 2d
Years ago I worked out the math for a doctor to rent all his own equipment ( including MRI! ), pay for full time staff including accountants etc. and the money still didn't add up.
If doctors actually were paid $1,000/hr for their time, I'd understand because at least they are doing the labor. But that's not what is happening. Insurance companies are taking the profit.
ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 2d
This is by design. The massive amount of unpaid medical debt makes this necessary. We are all paying for the healthcare of people who can't afford it PLUS the profits going to the insurance industry and the debt collectors. That is why it is so stupid that people refuse to do Medicare for All or something similar.
architect@thelemmy.club · 6 pts · 2d
I have yet to meet anyone in healthcare that will admit those kinds of fees are wrong.
Tattorack@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 3d
So...
Bit of a funny elephant here....
Hum...
When can we start using the same rhetoric towards Americans as they're having towards Mexicans? Or the nationalists/fascists/racists have towards immigrants in general?
I mean, if we're going to see an influx of Americans going to other countries to benefit of the things which are better outside of America.... Isn't that literally the whole argument anti-immigration people have?
I dunno. The irony kinda has me smiling like The Senate at an opera light show.
kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world · 23 pts · 3d
Oh the irony (and hypocrisy) is fucking thick, my guy.
My MAGA father-in-law wants to end abortion rights for all Americans in all cases. But when confronted by my wife that her and the rest of his 4 daughters might find their life in danger from an Ectopic pregnancy or other dangerous medical condition in which the only remedy is terminating a pregnancy, he calmly assured her that if they needed an abortion he'd fly them out of the country to get them one (but also the American Healthcare System is still the best in the world, btw). Meanwhile, he and those like him disparage those moving the US seeking opportunities and safety for their families instead of staying fixing their country that WE largely are responsible for destabilizing and putting into poverty.
And he doesn't put stock in us being held responsible for the state of those nations as the things we did to them happened decades ago (for the most part). Also he doesn't believe that Native Americans should have any claim to lands within the US or any sovereignty under US law. In unrelated matters, though, Isreal has a right to those lands because they were stolen from them thousands of years ago, and they can and should have a one state rule over the region and people there despite other people living there already, and also it is totally cool that they get put under a decades long blockade because those people voted a group into power that opposed their occupation, and they do not have a right to resist this blockade or occupation in an way with force.
If you are looking for consistent, thoughtful policy positions, I'm afraid the modern American Right has little to provide you.
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 2d
Unfortunately this is pretty consistent.
kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
The Palestinian and Native American sovereignty rights, or lack-there-of is consistent. The claim to the lands stolen from them (the Isrealis) not so much.
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 2d
It's just 'might makes right' combined with 'our guy won' and a helping of Western imperialism. You don't need to be a philosopher to see the underlying reasoning.
From what I've heard, you can see about the same thing in Ayn Rand's lectures where she retroactively excused colonization of the Americas because "they didn't do anything valuable with all the land". You know, same Ayn Rand that wrote the bible of US corporatocracy. (Alas, I don't think I have long enough time left to waste on Rand's lectures myself.)
modus@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 3d
No one is stopping you.
Jax@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 2d
Unfortunately the people who you should be bigoted against aren't leaving.
The fact is that the people of the U.S. that are stuck here need help. Desperately, as the walls are closing in faster than they ever have.
stumu415@lemmy.zip · 17 pts · 3d
Wait till people find out the technology and cost for health care in China.
My father will get his hearing and heart checked here, because in my birth country he has to wait 4 months to get an appointment and than likely another 3 months for the next step. Here we get everything done in one day including all scans, results, meeting with the specialist and possible medication.
Edit: link because medical tourism is becoming a real thing now in China. I can't believe how ridiculous the costs are in the US. It's a total scam.
https://chinaneighbor.com/guide/healthcare/medical-trip-to-china-overview/
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 16 pts · 2d
My dentist gave me a big estimate, and I said, "I'll never be able to afford that," and he said "Just go to Mexico, get it done for a quarter of the price."
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 3d
Sometimes, I think America loathe Mexico not because they are brown and poor, but because America is envious that a poor country have affordable healthcare than the supposedly richest country in the world.
moncharleskey@lemmy.zip · 16 pts · 3d
I'm willing to bet the majority of Americans have no idea Mexico has affordable healthcare. Propaganda is a bitch
TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 3d
I'm surprised to hear that to be honest. I know many Americans go to Mexico for cheaper medical care.
bilb@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 2d
Many do, it's definitely a thing, but it's far from most. A lot of people I know are scared to even go to Mexico.
hitmyspot@aussie.zone · 13 pts · 3d
I'm in Australia, with socialised medicine, but not socialised dentistry. The cost price of a single implant from a reputable supply company is about that price. That doesn't take into account surgery staff, healthcare staff, the actual surgery etc.
A filling material capsule is about $5. The cost of a filling is still $200-300. So, the cost price of the implant is only a tiny part od the picture.
21k is probably excessive but I'd want to see the laln. 1k is shoddy materials or only part of the story.
lornosaj@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 3d
Is it really so hard to believe that something like that can cost so low and maybe not be shoddy? In EU you get low cost and higher cost countries and ofc it differs, but overall that cost mentioned in the post is imho reasonable.
hitmyspot@aussie.zone · 0 pts · 2d
Yes, it's definitely shoddy at that price. They either used cheapo brands of inplants that aren't made well or the poster is not being accurate.
Things can definitely be cheaper. I get a bimonthky injection that costs about AUD2500. I pay $25. That doesn't mean the manufacturer receives $25. That's not how socialised medicine works. The government subsidises it to make it $25.
A tourist going to get dentistry overseas gets no such subsidy. The cost of materials, staff, equipment and profit are all built into that price. Dentistry, and particularly surgical dentistry, is a capital intensive endeavour. Its not financially viable to have quality work at that price.
You can have cheap things like cleans, which need less consumables and less equipment. Implant surgery can be cheaper, but not that much vheaper.
creamfresh@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 3d
Amalgam or cement? I pay around 70€ for the material of a ceramic filling.
hitmyspot@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 2d
A composite compule for single use. For a ceramic inlay or only or crown, an emax ingot is about EUR30 for me in private-dentistry-expensive Australia. Off brands are cheaper and most dentists dont use them despite an incredibly overbearing TGA here that limits what materials can be used or improved (similar tonusa fda). Australia does not allow practitioners to import goods from overseas, even if from same factory. Only those with a licence for that specific product may do so to prevent shoddy materials. It leads to higher expense here, but also higher safety.
FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 3d
The Australian Dental Association are fucking scum who have successfully fought and bribed for Medicare to exclude dental
A pox upon them for their greed and avarice, at the expense of the health of the many
The link between poor dental health and cardiac disease is quite remarkable
There are too many dentists willing to accept increased mortality in the population as a whole, just so they can get richer
Fuck 'em with a wire brush
hitmyspot@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 2d
The Australian dental association actually lobby for it to be included. However, they have valid concerns about fees being appropriate for the costs.
People think dentists are greedy and rich due to the cost of care provision. The profit margin is not that high and salaries, like everyone's, have not risen in line with inflation. They started high, historically, though.
They do pretty well and are quite comfortable generally, so they don't need sympathy but they are not the wealth hoarders that you think they are.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 3d
Gee, you think?
hitmyspot@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 2d
I don't know. Does it include the restorarions, hoapital expenses etc. A full mouth rehab can run 50k, outside usa. A check up costs significantly less. With proper socialised dentistry, nobody should need that level of care. It's neglect, often due to cost and other socioeconomic issues that lead people to have poorer dental health, requiring that level of intervention.
Nonconfrontational@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 2d
That's true.
Cricket@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 2d
Moving my comment to the first level comments.
Cricket@lemmy.zip · 12 pts · 2d
Something to be aware of when it comes to healthcare in the US: the entire industry is a huge money-making machine. It's not just the infamous insurance companies making a profit on people's health or lack of. It's pharmaceutical companies, medical supply companies, medical equipment companies, medical services companies (like software), and last but not least: medical professionals. Everyone making a profit at every level.
Take a look at this list of top 25 highest paid occupations in the US and weep. Summary: 23 of the 25 highest paid occupations are medical professionals. The only ones that are not are chief executives and airline pilots, and those two aren't even in the top 10.
For the sake of another example, I know someone who was quoted $4,000 for some dental work in the US and went to their birth country to have the work done instead. The bill was $90. Granted, it was a dental training school so that probably made it extra cheap, but they said the quality of work was better than they were used to getting in the US. It's literally mind-boggling.
This article mentions a couple of other factors that go into the price in the US that I had forgotten about: expensive medical / dental schools and medical malpractice insurance.
jumping_redditor@sh.itjust.works · -3 pts · 2d
part of why they are so highly paid is that malpractice can go after almost all of their assets and medical school/residency enrollment slots are federally capped.
blame the government for not having anti trust lawsuits against the medical equipment and for having caps on how many people can become doctors per year.
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 3d
I live in a country on which USians love to shit online, and had root canal procedures and fillings done for free. Not sure about implants, though.
pineapplelover@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 6 pts · 3d
USians shit on lots of countries, you're going to have to narrow it down
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 3d
Fuck them. Let 'em keep guessing.
habitualcynic@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
They’ll never get it cuz they don’t know any countries. Source: am USian
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
Surprisingly, yall seem to learn a bit of geography every time you find another country to belittle. However, you'll never do any damage that my homeland's rich and deep folklore hasn't already done, what with being familiar with all the issues from inside.
ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online · 11 pts · 3d
And they are trying to bring that US system to Canada and the UK so maybe a dozen people or less can make billions.
AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 2d
They're trying to bring it to all "western" countries. The US ideology is being pushed hard everywhere in order for US firms to come in and start monetising everything (among which, health, of course).
ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online · 1 pts · 1d
In Canada ambulatory services have been privatized for a long time. They are not nearly as expensive as American ambulances, but they will send you a bill.
heartSagan5@lemmy.zip · 11 pts · 2d
It isn’t a healthcare system; it’s a health extortion racket, at this point.
ArmoredThirteen@lemmy.zip · 10 pts · 3d
Friend of mine went on vacation to Taiwan and Thailand for like three weeks and got dental done then. It was cheaper to be out of work and buy plane tickets and hotel stays than to have dental done in the US
Bongles@lemmy.zip · 10 pts · 3d
I need similar work done, I keep forgetting this is an option. It'll cost me 15k to do here at a generic chain dentist. After insurance
ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 3d
I have dental insurance and it's near-fucking-worthless for this level of work (which I've had a lot of in the last few years). It pays only a small percentage of the costs and the payout is capped at $1500 per year, nowhere near enough to cover the cost of a single implant. I wouldn't even bother having the insurance in the first place but it's a free benefit provided by my employer.
Chain dentists are a fucking abomination, though. You're guaranteed to get work you don't actually need because of the corporate pressures they're under to generate revenue.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 3d
Unfortunately it's getting harder and harder to find independent dentists
ragebutt@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 10 pts · 2d
I got dental implants in Costa Rica. One of the best medical systems in the world and flying there and back, hotel for ~10 days, rental car, and the two implants was cheaper than one implant from the sketchiest dentist I could find in the USA
Now I need 2 more and I’m considering going back. Wonderful country but driving there is a nightmare
heartSagan5@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 2d
The exchange rate just gives you their “top tier” experience.
Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
Add 5% on the bill for chauffeur treatment.
sumsinj@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 3d
Why tf is he talking AI
FlyingCircus@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 3d
Hate to break it to you, but humans have been using the em-dash since before AI existed. AI output is modeled after effective communicators, and those people still exist.
AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
I can even make it on my keyboard — because I use a proper keyboard map on a decent system. And I could do it ten years ago too!
sumsinj@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
"Our healthcare system isnt broken. Its a business model" If anything the em dash in that second sentence makes it seem more human, because its a double "it's not this – it's that"-ism. I don't care if the text is AI written or not but that style of communicating is not normal – its AI.
FlyingCircus@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
It's entirely normal. It's been a common rhetorical device for centuries. It may be more common now due to AI, but language is memetic and people adopt popular styles. It's impossible to say whether this is AI or not.
To be clear, I am more anti-AI than most people, but AI-hunts like this are only a waste of time. And frankly, they only distract from the message, which in this case is more worthy of discussion than whether or not the messenger used AI to compose his message.
blargh513@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 2d
I hate that everyone thinks an em dash is the mark of the beast. I've been using it for as long as I can remember, but people at work will give me shit saying that I am using an AI to respond.
BigDiction@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 3d
I’m pretty sure we’re reading an ad for a Tijuana based gastric bypass doctor lol.
draco_aeneus@mander.xyz · 5 pts · 3d
There should be a distinction between posts written by humans, and those written by AI. Political discussions should be for humans, not robots.
If this person wanted to make a comparison between dental prices, they could've written it out themselves. But instead the relied on an AI. That's not innovation, that's laziness!
Today, online discussions are broken – you can't know which comments are written by humans any more. Luckily we have people like you who can tell the difference.
Prathas@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 3d
Yeah, I don't know; is it even true, then?
masinko@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 3d
Idk if his specific post is true, but medical tourism is a booming industry. So common in the US that even the CDC has a page on it https://www.cdc.gov/yellow-book/hcp/health-care-abroad/medical-tourism.html
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Seems rather to be the LinkedIn style, with barely more than a short sentence per paragraph, and infused with the unmistakable pathos that feels a bit reserved but is definitely too pompous for business talk.
The formatting is similar to the BBC style aka modern news sites, but idk why it got adopted on LinkedIn when posters are presumably not paid per ad impression.
antianarchist@sopuli.xyz · 7 pts · 3d
Same in Europe. UK calls the perfect white teeth “Turkey Teeth” for a reason. And we all have universal healthcare here around. So this is not the only reason. Purchase power and GDP matter, too.
AvocadoSandwich@eviltoast.org · 15 pts · 3d
But "perfect white teeth" aka veneers are often a cosmetic procedure and are thus generally not covered by universal healthcare (there are exceptions ofcourse).
I'd argue a rootcanal treatment is very necessary so I don't think they are comparable situations. That is ofcourse just the opinion of a random internet person.
antianarchist@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 3d
Teeth are never covered by health insurance as far as I know, unless the cause was an accident.
ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 3d
I broke two front teeth and had a wisdom tooth knocked loose and later extracted in a fall at work. Workman's comp insurance is supposed to pay for it all (many thousands of $$$) but so far they've balked for the last eight months. Meanwhile my dentist has eaten the entire cost. Workman's comp insurance treats people only through preferred providers, but they have no preferred dentists or oral surgeons so it's a bit of a grey area.
antianarchist@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 3d
And they still wonder why they get Brian Thomson’d.
Jokes aside, why is there not a single Mamdani in the US inventing now insurance should work, with private/contracted hospitals or doctors, forcing the premiums down so that it can be used by many people? I mean, it feels like 99.9% of the people would immediately switch to something like that.
ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 3d
We have something like that, it's called Medicare. You just have to be 65 to get into it. A very reasonable proposal, first mooted in the '90s, was called Medicare-for-all; the idea was that they would just lower the eligibility age by two years every year to allow the country to ease gradually into universal healthcare. If we had done this back then we would have universal healthcare today.
Some people blame Hilary Clinton for this, because she allegedly rejected this option and instead pushed for immediate universal health care back when her husband first became President. I think this is probably a distraction from the real culprits. The private insurance companies fought like hell against universal healthcare and would have fought just as hard (and just as successfully) against Medicare-for-all.
CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de · 1 pts · 3d
Can’t make money at it. Can’t get investors. Investors are a requirement. Can’t get into hospitals and doctor networks.
Funkt4st1c@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 3d
Which is insane, btw. Teeth are the beginning of the digestive tract, relatively exposed to the elements, and you only get one adult set.
AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space · 2 pts · 3d
This is arguably because, if dental care was free, it would remove a visible signal of someone’s wealth and position in the social hierarchy
majster@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 3d
Dentist procedures are being done in the Balkans for people further north. And all countries there have universal health care. But waiting lines for free procedures are reality. So many opt to pay out of pocket to get it sooner.
minorkeys@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 2d
That's your entire economy after new markets gets 'investment'.
Thebeardedsinglemalt@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2d
Yup, my aunt and uncle are traveling out of the country for the first time in their lives. My uncle had may have had a few too many Irish pub beers (drinks only Coors) and ended up falling on some stairs and needed 14 staples in his head and a ride in the ambulance.
$250.
tazeycrazy@feddit.uk · 4 pts · 2d
Probably should give you all a warning about traveling for medical work
1: You will not have access to the same level of after care when you get home. There may also be incompatible medication and procedures to your home country.
2: If something goes wrong you will need to deal with it out there. It may be cheeper for the procedure but you will not have the same resources to emergency or long term care. The cost of repatriation is astronomical compared to the cost of local care.
3: When you get back a local doctor or dentists is not going to touch this as this is someone else's issue and they don't want the liability of something more going wrong. You may need to then find more specialist care and more expensive work to fix what was broken.
4: Good luck getting any compensation. Different country means different legal system. You would need more legal resources to sue a foreign medical provider. Then would lose any savings you made as lawyers get there cut any a court is unlikely to pay out for the cost of what is to them excessive cost in a foreign country.
By all means get the work done but there is risks.
Waraugh@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 11 pts · 2d
There is risk but you will still receive standard care if you got the initial care somewhere else. It’s just factually wrong that a medical professional, dentist or otherwise, is going to refuse work because somebody else did the initial work unless they’re a quak. It happens all the damn time.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 7 pts · 2d
Exactly. You're not looking for a contractor to fix the mess the last contractor left when you fired him for fucking up your driveway, this is the medical field. Doctors fix others doctors mistakes all the time. What are you supposed to do, go back to the quack who caused the problem, or get a new, competent one to fix the problem?
atx_aquarian@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Maybe partly true both ways? Right now, we're going through doctors refusing to try procedures that may have been skipped along her way to pain management care. We're trying to see what we missed and consider all options, but when we bring up her history and "pain management" comes up (which can include medication and procedures), we've been turned away for the clear reason that they won't try to treat if these "pain management" procedures have already been done. But in other cases, they have said "why didn't they try steroid injection first, that would be the standard before a nerve block and ablation" and took the case anyway.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today · 5 pts · 2d
All that same stuff could happen with an American dentist, at 10x the price.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 2d
For dental work, you could fly back to the same doctor in Mexico multiple times for the cost of a US doc, even in the unlikely event you do have complications.
5318008@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 2d
Hell, with these numbers, you could get 16 dentists, have them compete head to head in a 4-level tournament, and still afford an espresso machine for the winner.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 2d
And the idea that no doc will look at you after going overseas is fear mongering. I went to Argentina or facial feminization surgery (FFS) and Thailand for sex reassignment surgery (SRS.) This was long before insurance companies started getting forced to cover trans care under anti-discrimination laws. So I had to pay for everything out of pocket. The only hope for me to get treatment was to go overseas.
And I've had plenty of follow-up treatment in the states over the years. I had some complications from FFS and had to get some follow up treatment by a US doctor and dentist. And after SRS I've had regular gynecological care, including a pap smear. No doctor who treats trans patients has ever turned me away because I got treatment overseas.
Ajen@sh.itjust.works · 0 pts · 2d
Depends on how good your insurance is. OP is right, there's an added risk and if you have access to affordable dental care at home you should use it.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 2d
Dental insurance in the US is almost universally worthless if you need serious dental treatment. It's not real insurance. It's just a prepayment plan for basic services. Most plans have insultingly low annual limits like $1000 or $1500, when even a single implant will cost many multiples of this.
There are a few rare folks that have some gold plated dental coverage. But the default assumption should be that every American is effectively uninsured when it comes to dental insurance. We don't actually have dental insurance in the US, as a general rule.
Ajen@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 2d
Good point, I'd forgotten about annual limits.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 2d
Honestly, dental insurance as as government single-payer system makes even more sense than regular health insurance as a single-payer system.
The real problem with dental insurance is that most dental procedures can be put off for a long time. People can go years with rotted falling out teeth. Foregoing dental work can cause you a lot of pain, but it's unlikely to actually kill you. This is much less the case with regular health insurance. If you get a cancer diagnosis, you need treatment now. You can't wait five years, save on the premiums, and then sign up for a plan for a single year and get all your cancer treatments done at once. With dentistry you can. This is why dental insurance tends to have annual maximums. Without them, people could forego dental insurance for years, wait until they have a whole bunch of dental work that needs doing, and then only pay for a dental plan long enough to get those treatments covered.
But with a single-payer dental system, that adverse selection problem disappears. With single payer, everyone has to pay for dental insurance every year via taxes. There's no saving up dental work for one expensive year once a decade.
Simply due to the nature of dental care, it's very difficult to make private insurance work as true insurance in the dental market.
tobebannedbygaymods@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 2d
Could do the Same in Syria for 200$
SciaticaDad@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
This works great for pet care too.. great veterinarians in TJ.
ATPA9@feddit.org · 0 pts · 3d
They really did the Cock and Ball AND COCK torture on him
altphoto@lemmy.today · -1 pts · 2d
I've done this while living near the border. But consider Worldvision....
Wouldn't it be funny if you need an Evola vaccine and you have to travel to Congo to get one from WorldVision? Then you too could be in the commercials..... And here we have Josh who's liver was just mush and needed an Evola vaccine in Chicago. With your donation of just $75.95 a month we were able to help Josh come to Congo and get the medical attention he needed. It only takes one second! Give us a call! Who hasn't gone to the park, then stopped at a McDonald's and a Starbucks and ended up with a $75.95 bill? Pass by taco loco bell and order a couple of gorditas with chalupas with a side of French fries and bam! You're half way to helping Josh live. Josh really appreciates your help. Let's have Josh say a few things..... Hi! My name is Josh and I needed an Ebola vaccine and I just wanna.... Thanks Josh! We see you're very thankful for your life back and appreciate the effort so many have put into their donations. Whether it's just $3 or $10 or $573.75, every 5 pennies count towards someone like Josh getting back to what really matters in life... Famil.... Their American job at the AI factory where we... They... Are building our wonderful conpanions! Call now!
lordkuri@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Take your meds dude.