my background in biochemistry makes me think it's almost guaranteed to be impossible, so i don't worry about it.
however, in hypothetical case it isn't, i'd argue that it would be proper to destroy this technology in all cases along with inventors, because it would be horridly expensive initially, and first people to get it would be people like peter thiel and larry ellison. there was a recording where putin and xi admitted that they are also interested. then what you'll get would be class of immortal oligarchs. planck once said, progress in physics happens one funeral at a time, it's really more general than just physics, and you can say goodbye to any progress from that point on
Depends on what kind of forever. If it's truly forever and there's nothing you can do about it, that sounds like hell (imagine being the only thing floating in the universe after the heat death!) but if you can decide after 200, 500, 1000 years you've had enough, it really sounds like a pretty sweet deal.
Fuck forever, just let my upcoming prostate biopsy be negative. I'm retiring and I have shit to do that doesn't involve sitting in front of the TV wearing a diaper.
good luck, friend. this internet stranger will be keeping you in mind. nobody deserves some of the shit life dishes out, i sincerely hope this goes well for you.
Because, for instance, choices carry more weight when you can make finitely many of them.
Knowing you only have a limited time forces you to try and realise what's meaningful to you and what's not, and to actual act upon it.
If you live forever, have time to learn everything, experience everything... Then do you really? At which point does the amount of different experiences you run after stop painting a coherent picture of one's life, values and identity, and start looking like noise in a random checklist? Finding meaning in an eternal life would be a sisyphean task.
And also, ageing and dying are part of the human experience. Accepting your own mortality, your own limit in time, when you subjectively feel like you've always existed, is a meaningful journey. Becoming immortal robs you of that chance.
Because, for instance, choices carry more weight when you can make finitely many of them.
Ah, but on the other hand, they can only have finite impact. If one were immortal, then the consequence of each choice would last forever, giving it more weight rather than less.
Knowing you only have a limited time forces you to try and realise what’s meaningful to you and what’s not, and to actual act upon it.
Perhaps, but plenty of people get so absorbed in their lives that they don't do this anyway, even with only finite time available to them.
If you live forever, have time to learn everything, experience everything… Then do you really? At which point does the amount of different experiences you run after stop painting a coherent picture of one’s life, values and identity, and start looking like noise in a random checklist? Finding meaning in an eternal life would be a sisyphean task.
Our identity already changes significantly over time; for example, I am a very different person in many ways than I was a decade ago. Thus, change is an inevitable feature of existence that we already need to embrace even for a finite lifetime.
Put another way, if one is seeking meaning through a lifelong stable identity, then one is looking in the wrong place because there is no such thing.
And also, ageing and dying are part of the human experience. Accepting your own mortality, your own limit in time, when you subjectively feel like you’ve always existed, is a meaningful journey. Becoming immortal robs you of that chance.
This is circular reasoning. If it were possible to be immortal--which is the hypothetical being considered--ageing and dying would no longer be a necessary part of the human experience, so there would need to be a better reason to choose them than "ageing and dying are part of the human experience".
each choice would last forever, giving it more weight rather than less.
From my finite point of view, each of my choice lasts for my whole life, there is no subjective difference.
Perhaps, but plenty of people get so absorbed in their lives that they don't do this anyway, even with only finite time available to them.
True, my initial comment should read "can be meaningful" rather than "is meaningful".
Our identity already changes significantly over time; for example, I am a very different person in many ways than I was a decade ago. Thus, change is an inevitable feature of existence that we already need to embrace even for a finite lifetime.
Put another way, if one is seeking meaning through a lifelong stable identity, then one is looking in the wrong place because there is no such thing.
There is a whole spectrum between "misguidedly trying to be one and only one thing" and being an entropy machine.
This is circular reasoning. If it were possible to be immortal--which is the hypothetical being considered--ageing and dying would no longer be a necessary part of the human experience, so there would need to be a better reason to choose them than "ageing and dying are part of the human experience".
From my finite point of view, each of my choice lasts for my whole life, there is no subjective difference.
Fair enough, but either way we arrive at the same conclusion that being immortal does not make choices less weighty.
There is a whole spectrum between “misguidedly trying to be one and only one thing” and being an entropy machine.
Hmm, I think our disagreement here depends what exactly would happen to the human mind over arbitrarily large time scales, because I don't think that constantly changing is the same thing as inevitably converging towards being nothing at all in particular as you do.
Of course, this is in part an engineering issue because the human brain is not designed to last for more than ~ 120 years anyway, so one solution might be to just not take away our natural tendency for memories to get fuzzier the further they are in the past. This also would have the advantage that it would let us re-experience things as if it were for the first time, so that life never completely loses its novelty.
(Honestly, you could argue that this is essentially what reincarnation would do anyway, but reincarnation kind of scares me because most human and animal bodies have short and horrifying lives, so I would rather not take my chances if I do not have to.)
You mean like the sentences after that?
Hmm, I reread your comment to try and figure out what you are trying to get at with this but could not figure it out. Could you explain?
Fair enough, but either way we arrive at the same conclusion that being immortal does not make choices less weighty.
If you define the weigh of each choice as being the subjective length of time of it's effect solely, then I would agree. But that is only one way to look at it. The other one, from my initial comment, was that each choice is more "precious" (willfully using a different term here for clarity rather than anything deep) if you only can make finitely many. In that sense, the weight of a single choice is that you know it will rob you of the opportunity of the other ones that you could have made. If you are immortal, you can just also make them later.
Hmm, I think our disagreement here depends what exactly would happen to the human mind over arbitrarily large time scales, because I don't think that constantly changing is the same thing as inevitably converging towards being nothing at all in particular as you do.
Ok, my "entropy machine" statement was very vague and only moderately clearer in my head. For the sake of the argument, could we assume there is no physical issue with our brains over long periods of time? Say it feels like a healthy 20-30 year old mind forever.
My entropy thing had more to do with what one would do or chose to do. I was thinking about it vaguely in terms of "if someone or something can do everything, it communicates no information about that thing".
What would be the point of trying to do everything apart from filing the time that you have? Maybe things would have meaning for N years with N very large? Doesn't matter how large, it's still nothing. And then you need to keep at it even though it's lost meaning to you, or try something else, again, with the knowledge this is an inescapable cycle.
This also would have the advantage that it would let us re-experience things as if it were for the first time, so that life never completely loses its novelty.
So that's starting to be interesting. If we add the forgetting, then you have sort of this sliding window of memories, yeah you address part of my above points. I was going to say that it could lead to being just trapped in sort of a periodic pattern largely, and that that would be meaningless, but I realised that would have been dishonest. First of all because of the unproven assumption, but more importantly because we have been talking about subjective meaning so far rather than objective meaning. So even if true, that would not necessarily render the experience meaningless subjectively.
All I can say is that, if I were given the choice in how to be made eternal, that would have to be part of the deal to soften the blow. Also this is not what I took it to mean so not what I had in mind when commenting. There's room for arguing about objectives meaning but I feel like even agreeing on whether that's a thing is a whole other conversation.
(Honestly, you could argue that this is essentially what reincarnation would do anyway,
Damn, I'm going to really sound like a contrarian I am sorry. I disagree with this. There is a fundamental difference to me between reincarnation, which involves death (or indeed, the erasure of the knowledge of your past life) and a discrete jump to another one and a sliding window of perceived memory but with continuous consciousness. I wouldn't call reincarnation "immortality" in the context of this argument because we have been talking about subjective experience, and subjectively, even assuming reincarnation, you only ever experience one incarnation with no knowledge of prior ones.
Hmm, I reread your comment to try and figure out what you are trying to get at with this but could not figure it out. Could you explain?
Yes but it was more of an additional remark. I was just arguing death made for a meaningful experience. But it's not the only meaningful experience one can have, so it does not reinforce my initial point.
Ok, my “entropy machine” statement was very vague and only moderately clearer in my head. For the sake of the argument, could we assume there is no physical issue with our brains over long periods of time? Say it feels like a healthy 20-30 year old mind forever.
Yes and no. I am fine with assuming that there is no physical issue with our brains, but in a sense that only addresses the hardware end and not the software end. It is not a given that our minds, when viewed as information processing systems, have the ability to remain stable indefinitely, a bit like how AIs in science fiction stories often go insane because instabilities build up. In fact, in a way some of the problems you are describing with what it would be like to be immortal could be viewed as examples of how the mind could break down over time.
So given this, there is a good chance we will need to apply a software patch to the mind, or some other form of engineering, to make the experience of being an immortal livable in practice. One possibility is that the information system simply cannot inherently hold an arbitrarily large number of memories so we need to engineer it to forget over time--though again, this might not actually be that invasive since our minds already forget most of what happens to them. However, maybe there are other possibilities as well, and when you get the procedure to become immortal you get to choose which one you want. (I actually really liked the The Golden Oecumene series about a post-singularity society because a major part of the setting was that there were lots of different ways that people wired their brains.)
(All of this is pure speculation, of course! I find it unlikely that any of this will come about any time soon, if civilization ever figures it out before destroying itself in one of many various ways.)
What would be the point of trying to do everything apart from filing the time that you have? Maybe things would have meaning for N years with N very large? Doesn’t matter how large, it’s still nothing. And then you need to keep at it even though it’s lost meaning to you, or try something else, again, with the knowledge this is an inescapable cycle.
I think that it is important to distinguish having the freedom to do anything from the attempt to do everything.
It reminds me a bit of Groundhog Day: what made Bill Murray happy in the end was finding meaning and contentment in his repeating life, rather than fighting against it.
I wouldn’t call reincarnation “immortality” in the context of this argument because we have been talking about subjective experience, and subjectively, even assuming reincarnation, you only ever experience one incarnation with no knowledge of prior ones.
Oh, yeah, to be clear, I totally do not consider it to be immortality either. It's just that, completely as an aside, if reincarnation is a thing, then it is technically an alternate solution to the "novelty" problem, and it is often sold as such in Eastern religions. (I thought of this just because another commenter brought it up.)
Yes but it was more of an additional remark. I was just arguing death made for a meaningful experience. But it’s not the only meaningful experience one can have, so it does not reinforce my initial point.
If the conclusion is that death provides a significant element of meaning to your life, then fair enough!
For me, it just is what it is, and my life would not be any less meaningful if it were taken away. Having said that, if someone walked up to me and offered me immortality then I would be very hesitant because if things go bad then you might end up suffering from all eternity.
Meh, if immortality means that a copy of me is being uploaded into a computer, then at least I guess that is technically someone else spending eternity in the Torment Nexus?
I'm not looking to live forever. Just another 40 to 50 years as long as I'm healthy. Only plan for that is to eat somewhat healthy and get a couple hours of cardio and strength training in a few times a week. Nothing obsurd just enough to maintain strength as I age and get the heart pumping.
Those treatments are in development. Not is use yet. The intention is to periodically reverse aging to shift it to many years younger state. Then repeat after some time.
no serious pharma company tries to do that, it's all high proof uncut transhumanist nonsense, served by crackpots, feeding on old scifi and rooted in the same impulse that driven alchemists in search of immortality
i'm of course not gonna stop you from believing in anything, do what you want
If you are under 40 and in age appropriate health, you have reasonable chance to benefit from anti-aging therapies. Start prepare 😉
Most probably they will be expensive af at the beginning. And similar to microwave ovens or mobile phones, they will become very affordable with time (economies of scale, experience curve, competition, expiration of patents). Probably even many countries will subsides them because they will keep people healthy longer (so they could work out be generally productive, rather then costing a lot of money on treatment of chronic diseases).
Ever? None. I'm not foolish enough to think I can live forever. Even if I could be upload to a computer, I wouldn't. That sounds more like hell than heaven. No Earthly pleasures.
"Forever" is a long time. Only this universe still has a few billion years to go. Washing my dishes every day for all this time would be boring. No thanks!
I mean, it's more of trillions of trillions of trillions... (repeat many times more) and that's only until the heat death, the universe will continue to exist, though it would be a pretty boring place to visit after the black holes die.
Consider what happens when you are the last living creature on this planet. Eventually, the sun expands into a red giant and now you give to live in constant agony inside the sun. Of course, there is space travel so perhaps you can avoid an extreme sunburn.
When my time comes I will rid myself of the delusion that I was anything other than a piece of the universe experiencing itself.
Maybe something fundamental of me will return. If the Buddhists are right I have a suspicion of what I am learning in this life and what I will need to learn in the next. But otherwise I will simply no longer distinct at further points in time, just as there are prior ones I was not distinct at.
Just fly a rocket into a stable orbit near a black hole and wait until the time dilation causes 1000s of years to pass on earth, then go back and hope someone has figured it out.
I've gone to a lot of trouble to learn a lot and gain a lot of wisdom (though starting like a fool helps a lot with the latter!), and yet there is still so much more room to learn and grow, so the prospect of cutting that process short makes me sad, even if it is inevitable.
I think we are just souls inside bodies and we come back again and again to learn. But if you dont believe that, then I understand if life feels very important to hold on to.
For me, many things have created this perspective on life. But its impossible to tell others to believe it. You have to experience it for yourself.
Reading about reincarnation experiences that is hard to explain, or talking to mediums and getting to talk to your dead parents... There are many ways to explore these things, and you should look for anything they say that is literally impossible to explain.
I am agnostic as to whether reincarnation/rebirth is a thing, but if it is then I follow the Eastern view that the best thing to do about it is to become one with Brahman/attain nirvana so that this is the last life as a separate being. I have had ambitions to spend more time and energy on spiritual practices towards this end, but unfortunately I have had numerous health problems that have drained my energy and made it hard to focus. (I also used to be in pretty good physical shape and lost most of it over the last year or two.) It would be really nice if I at least had enough time and energy to make it to stream entry in this life.
Thats the neat part, I dont. I simply continue the routine of putting food in my face and if anything bad happens... Try and deal with it.
Due to my job, if about half of the fortold "end-timed" occure, its not an issUe not an issME. Ill probably be at ground-zero of what ever it is, or atleast down the block from it...
Have fun in the appocalypse. If its zombies, I get to do that one.
What about possibility to live in great health for several decades longer, and if you get tired by life you just stop taking pills and deteriorate to oblivion as is usual now?
Shrug. The closest that real biology allows. I already have children so at least some sense a part of me will live on for at least the duration of their lives.
Past that I'm with most people on here that immortality sounds horrific. Now I can get behind extended life span especially if medicine and society provide for being actually healthy and able to enjoy it. Just not forever.
Return question: If you do have a plan to live forever, do you have a plan B how to end it, when (not if) it becomes unbearable?
Or when (not if) you've lost the last shard of your sanity?
You only die when the last person forgets your name. So I'm going to be remembered forever, all books in history should have a dedicated page about me.
Lol is vampirism an option?
All option are basically losing your humanity. I'll list some non magical ones:
Genetic enginerring: ok maybe i can improve my form by fixing the DNA deteriorating but how much memory will I be able to retain?
Psychosis is going to suck.
Cloning/body swap with memory transfer:
Basically all im doing is killing a version of me for a new one to start. Id have to be real chill with that or kill my self right as it starts to have continuity. Play SOMA for more insight.
I know my SO could not handle that. Id get used to but not really ideal.
Also issue of how much memory can be retained.
Digital upload in quantum computer:
Your physical form still dies but this one is my favorite but with a few "*" Because this can easily be condemned a version of yourself to hell. Basically your digital soul needs complete control of your environment and be able to escape to real mechanical or biological body on whim. Being restricted like in Upload will be nightmare. Then you need to be able to resolve having multiple overlapping memory if you have versions out and about doing stuff. Then you can multi task and consolidate memories without versions of you going rouge.
Brain in jar with human meat puppet
This one is similar to others but my original brain didnt die. This will similar to Jimmy in hard core Henry. Same issues with psychological aging but least your original self still exists.
Can't think of any others within realm of "science".
Strategies for engineered negligible senescence (SENS) is a framework conceived by the biogerontologist Dr. Aubrey de Grey. It classifies aging damage into couple of categories based off their similarities in a way that same kind of therapy (with some modification here and there) can be used too treat all problems in the category. Eg. cell loss (one of the categories) can be treated by stem cell therapy, but the precise procedure may be different when it comes to skin cells and heart cells.
There were attempts to take the framework down but they failed from scientific point of view. They were mostly value statements masquerading as science, or strong claims with no evidence.
Just for fun, if a like-minded individual has any possibility to physically preserve my brain (not a copy!) in their makeshift lab I'd probably roll the dice on that one if things were half-clean. Yeah, I know, the odds aren't good.
In terms of cyborg stuff, I would want something more organic than popsci typically shows though. Like having a semi-synthetic body that is its own multi-cellular, symbiotic organism. That can further connect to other things (like to the myconet to exchange resources).
I would not want to live forever, though. If I did anything like that I'd probably live isolated for a while and then retire into my own brain.
The sheer anger and hatred of wanting to see certain, unnamed people(s) die before I do. Let the rage keep me going in order to hopefully outlive some people. Thankfully a lot of those people are either currently either middle aged to elderly or just older than me.
But that's if nuclear war doesn't happen because I'm in an area that will hopefully be wiped off the map and I'll hopefully just be dust.
Starting this year, limited booze intake to 2 days per year.
Bought a Personal Locator Beacon for off-grid activities.
In order to be around when gen-eng, consciousness upload, medical age reversal, are real prospects. Still wouldn't opt for them though, here and now is it.
Not really not dying ever (entropy will came for everyone some day). But let's say not doing for very, veeeery long time.
I am 35 in reasonable health. I have reasonable chance to live until development, distribution and cheaping of real anti-aging / rejuvenation therapies (that can be 20 years). So my plan is to help spread awareness about such therapies to support their development rather sooner than later. I am thinking about founding an organization to support writing Wikipedia articles in many languages about this topic.
And in case of premature death, I intent to sign up for cryopreservation to buy some time to researchers to develop therapies for whatever would kill me in the meantime.
Hopefully I will find a magical lamp, with a wish granting genie inside, in some mysterious bazaar. Then I will use one of my three wishes for my own immortality, after I've wished away anyone who currently has that wish in place. Then use the last one to give the genie his freedom.
127 Comments
Justas@sh.itjust.works · 38 pts · 286d
No plans. I die like a real man.
Phunter@lemmy.zip · 11 pts · 286d
I'm gonna die and like it.
mannycalavera@feddit.uk · 33 pts · 286d
Who wants. To live. Forever?
agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 286d
Who dares. To love. Forever?
Crackhappy@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 286d
There's no chance for us
hakunawazo@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 285d
Yes, that's my plan too, to behead another highlander.
But what if the eternal prize is just a scratchcard or a McDonalds coupon?
kratoz29@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 286d
Forever? Perhaps not, until I clean up my gaming/reading/watching backlog? Perhaps.
That might as mean forever as well though.
fullsquare@awful.systems · 25 pts · 286d
my background in biochemistry makes me think it's almost guaranteed to be impossible, so i don't worry about it.
however, in hypothetical case it isn't, i'd argue that it would be proper to destroy this technology in all cases along with inventors, because it would be horridly expensive initially, and first people to get it would be people like peter thiel and larry ellison. there was a recording where putin and xi admitted that they are also interested. then what you'll get would be class of immortal oligarchs. planck once said, progress in physics happens one funeral at a time, it's really more general than just physics, and you can say goodbye to any progress from that point on
kubofhromoslav@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 286d
Part of rejuvenation is rejuvenating brain to keep its youthful plasticity.
fullsquare@awful.systems · 5 pts · 285d
thiel isn't funding unlicensed drug trials for longevity/immortality just so that he'll become more progressive in the process
with 200, 300 year old oligarchs values they grew up with are gonna stay influential much longer
For the record, i just intend to outlive my enemies
AmbiguousProps@lemmy.today · 21 pts · 286d
I don't intend to live forever, that sounds rough as hell.
rikudou@lemmings.world · 2 pts · 286d
Depends on what kind of forever. If it's truly forever and there's nothing you can do about it, that sounds like hell (imagine being the only thing floating in the universe after the heat death!) but if you can decide after 200, 500, 1000 years you've had enough, it really sounds like a pretty sweet deal.
SnarkoPolo@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 285d
Fuck forever, just let my upcoming prostate biopsy be negative. I'm retiring and I have shit to do that doesn't involve sitting in front of the TV wearing a diaper.
yyyesss@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 285d
good luck, friend. this internet stranger will be keeping you in mind. nobody deserves some of the shit life dishes out, i sincerely hope this goes well for you.
Yankee_Self_Loader@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 286d
TriangleSpecialist@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 286d
I don't? It sounds like a horrible curse. Part of the reason life is meaningful is that we're only temporary witnesses of the universe.
bitcrafter@programming.dev · 10 pts · 286d
I've never gotten this attitude. Why does only having temporary existence make life meaningful?
TriangleSpecialist@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 286d
Because, for instance, choices carry more weight when you can make finitely many of them.
Knowing you only have a limited time forces you to try and realise what's meaningful to you and what's not, and to actual act upon it.
If you live forever, have time to learn everything, experience everything... Then do you really? At which point does the amount of different experiences you run after stop painting a coherent picture of one's life, values and identity, and start looking like noise in a random checklist? Finding meaning in an eternal life would be a sisyphean task.
And also, ageing and dying are part of the human experience. Accepting your own mortality, your own limit in time, when you subjectively feel like you've always existed, is a meaningful journey. Becoming immortal robs you of that chance.
bitcrafter@programming.dev · 0 pts · 286d
Ah, but on the other hand, they can only have finite impact. If one were immortal, then the consequence of each choice would last forever, giving it more weight rather than less.
Perhaps, but plenty of people get so absorbed in their lives that they don't do this anyway, even with only finite time available to them.
Our identity already changes significantly over time; for example, I am a very different person in many ways than I was a decade ago. Thus, change is an inevitable feature of existence that we already need to embrace even for a finite lifetime.
Put another way, if one is seeking meaning through a lifelong stable identity, then one is looking in the wrong place because there is no such thing.
This is circular reasoning. If it were possible to be immortal--which is the hypothetical being considered--ageing and dying would no longer be a necessary part of the human experience, so there would need to be a better reason to choose them than "ageing and dying are part of the human experience".
TriangleSpecialist@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 286d
From my finite point of view, each of my choice lasts for my whole life, there is no subjective difference.
True, my initial comment should read "can be meaningful" rather than "is meaningful".
There is a whole spectrum between "misguidedly trying to be one and only one thing" and being an entropy machine.
You mean like the sentences after that?
bitcrafter@programming.dev · 1 pts · 286d
Fair enough, but either way we arrive at the same conclusion that being immortal does not make choices less weighty.
Hmm, I think our disagreement here depends what exactly would happen to the human mind over arbitrarily large time scales, because I don't think that constantly changing is the same thing as inevitably converging towards being nothing at all in particular as you do.
Of course, this is in part an engineering issue because the human brain is not designed to last for more than ~ 120 years anyway, so one solution might be to just not take away our natural tendency for memories to get fuzzier the further they are in the past. This also would have the advantage that it would let us re-experience things as if it were for the first time, so that life never completely loses its novelty.
(Honestly, you could argue that this is essentially what reincarnation would do anyway, but reincarnation kind of scares me because most human and animal bodies have short and horrifying lives, so I would rather not take my chances if I do not have to.)
Hmm, I reread your comment to try and figure out what you are trying to get at with this but could not figure it out. Could you explain?
TriangleSpecialist@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 286d
If you define the weigh of each choice as being the subjective length of time of it's effect solely, then I would agree. But that is only one way to look at it. The other one, from my initial comment, was that each choice is more "precious" (willfully using a different term here for clarity rather than anything deep) if you only can make finitely many. In that sense, the weight of a single choice is that you know it will rob you of the opportunity of the other ones that you could have made. If you are immortal, you can just also make them later.
Ok, my "entropy machine" statement was very vague and only moderately clearer in my head. For the sake of the argument, could we assume there is no physical issue with our brains over long periods of time? Say it feels like a healthy 20-30 year old mind forever.
My entropy thing had more to do with what one would do or chose to do. I was thinking about it vaguely in terms of "if someone or something can do everything, it communicates no information about that thing".
What would be the point of trying to do everything apart from filing the time that you have? Maybe things would have meaning for N years with N very large? Doesn't matter how large, it's still nothing. And then you need to keep at it even though it's lost meaning to you, or try something else, again, with the knowledge this is an inescapable cycle.
So that's starting to be interesting. If we add the forgetting, then you have sort of this sliding window of memories, yeah you address part of my above points. I was going to say that it could lead to being just trapped in sort of a periodic pattern largely, and that that would be meaningless, but I realised that would have been dishonest. First of all because of the unproven assumption, but more importantly because we have been talking about subjective meaning so far rather than objective meaning. So even if true, that would not necessarily render the experience meaningless subjectively.
All I can say is that, if I were given the choice in how to be made eternal, that would have to be part of the deal to soften the blow. Also this is not what I took it to mean so not what I had in mind when commenting. There's room for arguing about objectives meaning but I feel like even agreeing on whether that's a thing is a whole other conversation.
Damn, I'm going to really sound like a contrarian I am sorry. I disagree with this. There is a fundamental difference to me between reincarnation, which involves death (or indeed, the erasure of the knowledge of your past life) and a discrete jump to another one and a sliding window of perceived memory but with continuous consciousness. I wouldn't call reincarnation "immortality" in the context of this argument because we have been talking about subjective experience, and subjectively, even assuming reincarnation, you only ever experience one incarnation with no knowledge of prior ones.
Yes but it was more of an additional remark. I was just arguing death made for a meaningful experience. But it's not the only meaningful experience one can have, so it does not reinforce my initial point.
bitcrafter@programming.dev · 1 pts · 285d
Yes and no. I am fine with assuming that there is no physical issue with our brains, but in a sense that only addresses the hardware end and not the software end. It is not a given that our minds, when viewed as information processing systems, have the ability to remain stable indefinitely, a bit like how AIs in science fiction stories often go insane because instabilities build up. In fact, in a way some of the problems you are describing with what it would be like to be immortal could be viewed as examples of how the mind could break down over time.
So given this, there is a good chance we will need to apply a software patch to the mind, or some other form of engineering, to make the experience of being an immortal livable in practice. One possibility is that the information system simply cannot inherently hold an arbitrarily large number of memories so we need to engineer it to forget over time--though again, this might not actually be that invasive since our minds already forget most of what happens to them. However, maybe there are other possibilities as well, and when you get the procedure to become immortal you get to choose which one you want. (I actually really liked the The Golden Oecumene series about a post-singularity society because a major part of the setting was that there were lots of different ways that people wired their brains.)
(All of this is pure speculation, of course! I find it unlikely that any of this will come about any time soon, if civilization ever figures it out before destroying itself in one of many various ways.)
I think that it is important to distinguish having the freedom to do anything from the attempt to do everything.
It reminds me a bit of Groundhog Day: what made Bill Murray happy in the end was finding meaning and contentment in his repeating life, rather than fighting against it.
Oh, yeah, to be clear, I totally do not consider it to be immortality either. It's just that, completely as an aside, if reincarnation is a thing, then it is technically an alternate solution to the "novelty" problem, and it is often sold as such in Eastern religions. (I thought of this just because another commenter brought it up.)
If the conclusion is that death provides a significant element of meaning to your life, then fair enough!
For me, it just is what it is, and my life would not be any less meaningful if it were taken away. Having said that, if someone walked up to me and offered me immortality then I would be very hesitant because if things go bad then you might end up suffering from all eternity.
chunes@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 286d
Novelty. When you're a kid, every experience is new, fresh, wondrous. That shit eventually gets old as you may have noticed
allo@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 286d
tho, from another perspective, I can make more and more enjoyable songs for eternity. Same with nearly any artistically creatable thing.
bitcrafter@programming.dev · 1 pts · 286d
Fair enough, but that sounds more like "enjoyable" than "meaningful".
PrimeMinisterKeyes@leminal.space · 2 pts · 285d
It's a line from TNG.
TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world · -3 pts · 286d
pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 14 pts · 286d
Why the hell would I want to live forever, I don't want to be alive now
bestusername@aussie.zone · 13 pts · 286d
bitcrafter@programming.dev · 4 pts · 286d
Meh, if immortality means that a copy of me is being uploaded into a computer, then at least I guess that is technically someone else spending eternity in the Torment Nexus?
Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works · 13 pts · 286d
Thanks to denial, I'm immortal!
bitcrafter@programming.dev · 5 pts · 286d
Mortality is a state of mind!
shalafi@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 286d
^ Hob Gadling right here.
popekingjoe@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 286d
I'm supposed to have a plan for this?
rikudou@lemmings.world · 4 pts · 286d
Obviously. Immortality is hard without a solid plan.
popekingjoe@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
Shit man I've just been winging it my whole life. Fuck I guess I'll sit down this weekend and come up with something solid. 😓
hardcoreufo@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 286d
Only insane billionaires plan for that.
I'm not looking to live forever. Just another 40 to 50 years as long as I'm healthy. Only plan for that is to eat somewhat healthy and get a couple hours of cardio and strength training in a few times a week. Nothing obsurd just enough to maintain strength as I age and get the heart pumping.
kubofhromoslav@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 286d
There are treatments in development to keep you healthy much longer that currently.
fullsquare@awful.systems · 2 pts · 285d
you might end up like ray kurzweil, aging no matter what despite 300 pills popped every day
kubofhromoslav@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 285d
Those treatments are in development. Not is use yet. The intention is to periodically reverse aging to shift it to many years younger state. Then repeat after some time.
fullsquare@awful.systems · 1 pts · 285d
no serious pharma company tries to do that, it's all high proof uncut transhumanist nonsense, served by crackpots, feeding on old scifi and rooted in the same impulse that driven alchemists in search of immortality
i'm of course not gonna stop you from believing in anything, do what you want
kubofhromoslav@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 284d
Well, I did looked into the science of it a bit.
fullsquare@awful.systems · 2 pts · 284d
oh you "did your own research". i work in pharma and there's plenty of real problems to be solved instead of chasing wishes of dead chinese emperors
kubofhromoslav@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 284d
Thanks for your service 🙏
Do you know what is the single biggest risk factor for mortality globally, and especially in developed countries?
hardcoreufo@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 285d
I don't want em
kubofhromoslav@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 285d
That is totally OK. You don't, others do. You have no obligation to use them 👍
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 285d
I have "kidnapped" a small child and am brainwashing them to think like me.
they will be me, essentially.
one day they will do the same, and "I" will live on for eternity.
RodgeGrabTheCat@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 286d
I only plan for things that are possible so no plan to live forever.
Having said that, scientists are working on a cure for aging. Even if they sort that out before I die, the treatments will be too expensive for me.
kubofhromoslav@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 286d
If you are under 40 and in age appropriate health, you have reasonable chance to benefit from anti-aging therapies. Start prepare 😉
Most probably they will be expensive af at the beginning. And similar to microwave ovens or mobile phones, they will become very affordable with time (economies of scale, experience curve, competition, expiration of patents). Probably even many countries will subsides them because they will keep people healthy longer (so they could work out be generally productive, rather then costing a lot of money on treatment of chronic diseases).
tanisnikana@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 286d
I read The Postmortal by Drew Magary.
If no one dies, life is worthless.
And if only I stay alive forever, my wife and my friends are gone, and it’s just me, alone, in this shattered husk of a body.
Alexstarfire@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 286d
Ever? None. I'm not foolish enough to think I can live forever. Even if I could be upload to a computer, I wouldn't. That sounds more like hell than heaven. No Earthly pleasures.
FreshParsnip@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 285d
I have no intention of trying to be immortal, just try to live a long time through healthy eating and exercise
Adderbox76@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 286d
I honestly can't think of anything less appealing than dealing with other people forever.
FartsWithAnAccent@fedia.io · 7 pts · 286d
I'm just gonna wing it!
DeuxChevaux@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 286d
"Forever" is a long time. Only this universe still has a few billion years to go. Washing my dishes every day for all this time would be boring. No thanks!
rikudou@lemmings.world · 2 pts · 286d
I mean, it's more of trillions of trillions of trillions... (repeat many times more) and that's only until the heat death, the universe will continue to exist, though it would be a pretty boring place to visit after the black holes die.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 286d
Quantum Immortality. There is at least one version of me that lives on.
hemko@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 6 pts · 286d
You know I'm born to lose, and gambling's for fools, But that's the way I like it baby, I don't wanna live forever
pruwybn@discuss.tchncs.de · 6 pts · 286d
Y'all are crazy, I'd take immorality in a heartbeat if anyone was offering.
RodgeGrabTheCat@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 286d
Consider what happens when you are the last living creature on this planet. Eventually, the sun expands into a red giant and now you give to live in constant agony inside the sun. Of course, there is space travel so perhaps you can avoid an extreme sunburn.
pruwybn@discuss.tchncs.de · 2 pts · 286d
That's true. I assumed it was more of a cure for aging. But OP did say "live forever" and "not dying", so I'd agree that I don't want those.
bitcrafter@programming.dev · 6 pts · 286d
I have no plans to live forever as a separate being, but I am hoping to attain nirvana so that I end the ending the suffering involved with death.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 286d
When my time comes I will rid myself of the delusion that I was anything other than a piece of the universe experiencing itself.
Maybe something fundamental of me will return. If the Buddhists are right I have a suspicion of what I am learning in this life and what I will need to learn in the next. But otherwise I will simply no longer distinct at further points in time, just as there are prior ones I was not distinct at.
Tudsamfa@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 285d
Just fly a rocket into a stable orbit near a black hole and wait until the time dilation causes 1000s of years to pass on earth, then go back and hope someone has figured it out.
dominiquec@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 286d
Breathing.
1984@lemmy.today · 6 pts · 286d
I plan to die like a normal human being.
Have no idea why people want to cling to this life for super long. It really isnt that amazing.
rikudou@lemmings.world · 6 pts · 286d
The fun part of quasi-immortality is that you can make your life pretty amazing!
Money isn't really that much of a problem if you don't have the certainty of being old and unable to provide for yourself.
bitcrafter@programming.dev · 4 pts · 286d
I've gone to a lot of trouble to learn a lot and gain a lot of wisdom (though starting like a fool helps a lot with the latter!), and yet there is still so much more room to learn and grow, so the prospect of cutting that process short makes me sad, even if it is inevitable.
1984@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 286d
I think we are just souls inside bodies and we come back again and again to learn. But if you dont believe that, then I understand if life feels very important to hold on to.
For me, many things have created this perspective on life. But its impossible to tell others to believe it. You have to experience it for yourself.
Reading about reincarnation experiences that is hard to explain, or talking to mediums and getting to talk to your dead parents... There are many ways to explore these things, and you should look for anything they say that is literally impossible to explain.
bitcrafter@programming.dev · 1 pts · 286d
I am agnostic as to whether reincarnation/rebirth is a thing, but if it is then I follow the Eastern view that the best thing to do about it is to become one with Brahman/attain nirvana so that this is the last life as a separate being. I have had ambitions to spend more time and energy on spiritual practices towards this end, but unfortunately I have had numerous health problems that have drained my energy and made it hard to focus. (I also used to be in pretty good physical shape and lost most of it over the last year or two.) It would be really nice if I at least had enough time and energy to make it to stream entry in this life.
rikudou@lemmings.world · 6 pts · 286d
If we're speaking how I'd like to do that if possible, just put my brain into a robot body. Or just upload my whole mind into a robot.
If we're talking realistically:
jerkface@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 286d
The name on my Park Run card is "Do Not Resuscitate"
jordanlund@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 286d
Oh, god, I don't. Not even close.
PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 286d
No plan
Hope someone else figures it out before I'm too old to make it worthwhile
nagaram@startrek.website · 5 pts · 284d
I don't even think I wanna wake up tomorrow.
Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org · 5 pts · 286d
I expext to live forever, seriously. Just not in this body and not on this planet.
Rhoeri@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 285d
Why would anyone want this?
BiteSizedZeitGeist@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 286d
Completely ignoring my own mortality, followed by crushing deathbed betrayal and disappointment
Fedditor385@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 285d
Look at the world around you, do you really want to live forever? The more time passes the more death seams like retirement from life.
callyral@pawb.social · 5 pts · 285d
If eternity is all time, and all the time I have is 80 or so years (hopefully), then that is eternity, for me. I'll already live "forever".
LORDSMEGMA@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 286d
And I'm here wanting to end it the moment my organs start failing
Bahnd@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 286d
Thats the neat part, I dont. I simply continue the routine of putting food in my face and if anything bad happens... Try and deal with it.
Due to my job, if about half of the fortold "end-timed" occure, its not an issUe not an issME. Ill probably be at ground-zero of what ever it is, or atleast down the block from it...
Have fun in the appocalypse. If its zombies, I get to do that one.
SpikesOtherDog@ani.social · 4 pts · 286d
Magic notebook.
Everything I write in it becomes true.
shish_mish@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 286d
I was not aware it was optional.
BradleyUffner@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 286d
Keep doing what I'm doing. It's worked so far.
Kyrgizion@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 286d
I don't. The idea of doing this in perpetuity is painful. I would like to earn my rest.
kubofhromoslav@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
What about possibility to live in great health for several decades longer, and if you get tired by life you just stop taking pills and deteriorate to oblivion as is usual now?
qaz@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 284d
I won't
I'll try to eat healthy and exercise, but besides that I'm not planning on doing anything.
Thrawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 285d
Shrug. The closest that real biology allows. I already have children so at least some sense a part of me will live on for at least the duration of their lives.
Past that I'm with most people on here that immortality sounds horrific. Now I can get behind extended life span especially if medicine and society provide for being actually healthy and able to enjoy it. Just not forever.
Boiglenoight@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 285d
If life has taught us anything, it’s that you eventually get tired of everything.
mech@feddit.org · 4 pts · 285d
Return question: If you do have a plan to live forever, do you have a plan B how to end it, when (not if) it becomes unbearable?
Or when (not if) you've lost the last shard of your sanity?
allo@sh.itjust.works · -2 pts · 285d
i value life more the longer i exist, both mine and others, not less.
zout@fedia.io · 4 pts · 286d
Like Bob from the Bobiverse.
Soulcreator@programming.dev · 2 pts · 286d
I would totally be cool to live in the Bobverse.
daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 285d
You only die when the last person forgets your name. So I'm going to be remembered forever, all books in history should have a dedicated page about me.
SkyezOpen@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 285d
Oh no.
Rhoeri@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 285d
All the ghosts we will be
Enjoy!
Spacehooks@reddthat.com · 3 pts · 286d
Lol is vampirism an option? All option are basically losing your humanity. I'll list some non magical ones:
Genetic enginerring: ok maybe i can improve my form by fixing the DNA deteriorating but how much memory will I be able to retain? Psychosis is going to suck.
Cloning/body swap with memory transfer: Basically all im doing is killing a version of me for a new one to start. Id have to be real chill with that or kill my self right as it starts to have continuity. Play SOMA for more insight. I know my SO could not handle that. Id get used to but not really ideal. Also issue of how much memory can be retained.
Digital upload in quantum computer: Your physical form still dies but this one is my favorite but with a few "*" Because this can easily be condemned a version of yourself to hell. Basically your digital soul needs complete control of your environment and be able to escape to real mechanical or biological body on whim. Being restricted like in Upload will be nightmare. Then you need to be able to resolve having multiple overlapping memory if you have versions out and about doing stuff. Then you can multi task and consolidate memories without versions of you going rouge.
Brain in jar with human meat puppet
This one is similar to others but my original brain didnt die. This will similar to Jimmy in hard core Henry. Same issues with psychological aging but least your original self still exists.
Can't think of any others within realm of "science".
kubofhromoslav@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 286d
SENS is within science.
Genetic therapy does not cause psychosis just by principle 😉
Spacehooks@reddthat.com · 1 pts · 284d
Im not familiar. Could you give more detail?
kubofhromoslav@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 284d
Strategies for engineered negligible senescence (SENS) is a framework conceived by the biogerontologist Dr. Aubrey de Grey. It classifies aging damage into couple of categories based off their similarities in a way that same kind of therapy (with some modification here and there) can be used too treat all problems in the category. Eg. cell loss (one of the categories) can be treated by stem cell therapy, but the precise procedure may be different when it comes to skin cells and heart cells.
There were attempts to take the framework down but they failed from scientific point of view. They were mostly value statements masquerading as science, or strong claims with no evidence.
pewgar_seemsimandroid@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 285d
i dont, i let my dead body become fertilzer to the plants
reddit_sux@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 285d
I would have no regrets if I die tomorrow.
insomniac_lemon@lemmy.cafe · 3 pts · 286d
Realistically I'll probably die in a heat wave.
Just for fun, if a like-minded individual has any possibility to physically preserve my brain (not a copy!) in their makeshift lab I'd probably roll the dice on that one if things were half-clean. Yeah, I know, the odds aren't good.
In terms of cyborg stuff, I would want something more organic than popsci typically shows though. Like having a semi-synthetic body that is its own multi-cellular, symbiotic organism. That can further connect to other things (like to the myconet to exchange resources).
I would not want to live forever, though. If I did anything like that I'd probably live isolated for a while and then retire into my own brain.
Kn1ghtDigital@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 286d
Something something adeptus mechanicus.
Wolf314159@startrek.website · 3 pts · 286d
Who wants to live forever?
Soulcreator@programming.dev · 3 pts · 286d
Connor McLeod?
RodgeGrabTheCat@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 286d
His goal was to outlive the rest and get the prize.
CosmoNova@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 286d
Why on earth would I want that? It‘s a fate I wouldn‘t wish on my worst enemy.
roofuskit@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 285d
Are you a billionaire? Cause unless you are it's like a child wanting to be Batman when they grow up.
BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 286d
What, why would I want that, what am I gonna do with forever, more of this shit, no thanks
agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 286d
Crack my skull and spine, pull out my spinal cord, brain, and eyes, pop 'em in a robot body.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 285d
instructions unclear. cracked open and sucked out the goodies like a crab.
AmericanEconomicThinkTank@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 285d
Walking more.
AceFuzzLord@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 284d
The sheer anger and hatred of wanting to see certain, unnamed people(s) die before I do. Let the rage keep me going in order to hopefully outlive some people. Thankfully a lot of those people are either currently either middle aged to elderly or just older than me.
But that's if nuclear war doesn't happen because I'm in an area that will hopefully be wiped off the map and I'll hopefully just be dust.
Zexks@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
Chemo synthetic extention until bci is workable. Bio carbon medium is too fragile
ace_garp@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
Starting this year, limited booze intake to 2 days per year.
Bought a Personal Locator Beacon for off-grid activities.
In order to be around when gen-eng, consciousness upload, medical age reversal, are real prospects. Still wouldn't opt for them though, here and now is it.
brb@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 285d
AGI singularity seems like the best bet
_Nico198X_@europe.pub · 2 pts · 285d
Entering the afterlife like a bio-person.
kubofhromoslav@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
Not really not dying ever (entropy will came for everyone some day). But let's say not doing for very, veeeery long time.
I am 35 in reasonable health. I have reasonable chance to live until development, distribution and cheaping of real anti-aging / rejuvenation therapies (that can be 20 years). So my plan is to help spread awareness about such therapies to support their development rather sooner than later. I am thinking about founding an organization to support writing Wikipedia articles in many languages about this topic.
And in case of premature death, I intent to sign up for cryopreservation to buy some time to researchers to develop therapies for whatever would kill me in the meantime.
Star@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 285d
I'd like to learn enough biology to cure aging and cancer. But first the politics need to change, so that's my priority.
Strider@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 285d
Already died once. The second time will be fine.
kelpie_returns@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
Pumafred9@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 286d
Hopefully I will find a magical lamp, with a wish granting genie inside, in some mysterious bazaar. Then I will use one of my three wishes for my own immortality, after I've wished away anyone who currently has that wish in place. Then use the last one to give the genie his freedom.
CosmoNova@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 286d
The Genie will turn you into a Genie and you will loathe your immortality as an eternal slave really quickly.
flamiera@kbin.melroy.org · 2 pts · 285d
IWW4@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 285d
I don’t bother having one.m
Yankee_Self_Loader@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 286d
vga@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 285d
Socialjusticewarrior@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 285d