Are you a feminist? (If so why, if not why not?)

Might help also to describe what you think feminism is, since it's one of those terms that is overloaded.

I once had a physical therapist tell me she wasn't a feminist because she thought women couldn't be as physically capable as men when serving as soldiers, and seemed to believe feminism requires treating women exactly like men.

I told her I was a feminist because I believe in equal rights for men and women, an idea she did not seem so opposed to.

129 points · 287 comments · view on lemmy.world

287 Comments

nutbutter@discuss.tchncs.de · 36 pts · 1y (22 replies)

I am a feminist.

Feminism means all genders should be treated equal, but that does not mean men should also get paid menstrual leaves at their job. Equal rights, yes. Everyone should be treated fairly.

neon_nova@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 61 pts · 1y (6 replies)

Defining it as paid menstrual leave is kind of the problem. Hear me out.

Women should be able to take paid leaves from work to deal with menstrual problems, but it shouldn’t stop there. All people should be able to take leave from work when they need it.

So, if it is redefined as paid leave, then it equalizes the field.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 16 pts · 1y

I think the "when they need it" part is where the feminism becomes relevant - there is a history of women (and men) being denied leave when they need it for sexist / patriarchal reasons (e.g. men are generally not given paternity leave, women might not be allowed to take leave due to menstruation).

The scope of acceptable reasons to take leave is what is debated and where feminism has pushed for paid leave for reasons previously denied to both men and women.

nutbutter@discuss.tchncs.de · 1 pts · 1y (4 replies)

I get you. But say, a company has a policy that we give employees 2 paid leaves per month, for example, a woman can take those 2 paid leaves for the same reasons as the men do, but they would also need a day more of paid leaves to deal with the menstrual pain/stress. If that extra day is not defined as "menstrual leaves" men would argue that why are women getting more leaves, and hence the feminism thing will be broken as both are not treated fairly.

Same in the case of pregnancy. Companies give 2 months of paid leaves for that.

Or maybe the right thing to do is, just say, if you're pregnant, you get paid time off, if you're having periods you get paid time off. Do not include gender in it.

Idk man.

neon_nova@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 11 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I get what you’re saying, but if a woman is given more benefits than a man, businesses are disincentivized to hire women.

BillyTheKid@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 1y

Unless the government subsidizes their wages or reduces tax burdens for companies that have more diverse hiring

That's what we do in my country. If you hire only men you generally qualify for fewer government programs. In some cases you cant bid on the job if you don't have sufficient representation for specific groups.

degen@midwest.social · 9 pts · 1y

But I think the idea is that men should get the same lenience, i.e. just-feeling-wrecked-leave rather than menstrual-leave. The difference in having a baby should be that one needs medical leave too, in my mind.

Tacoma@feddit.org · 7 pts · 1y

And that's why the amount of paid leave should not be limited by time but by reason. If you can't work because you're pregnant or sick or whatever, you get paid leave until you are better. And the employer or coworkers don't even need to know why you can't work, that's for a doctor to decide. And anyone saying it's not fair if they have to work more because they are not sick as often is obviously just selfish and not interested in equality

uhdeuidheuidhed@thelemmy.club · 1 pts · 1y (2 replies)

It's a really shit word to use if it's supposed to mean equality.

Are there any other words we can use to replace feminism that doesn't show bias towards one side?

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y (1 reply)

isn't the nature of inequality that one side is privileged while another is marginalized?

Feminism is about gender equality, which means addressing the inequality that exists. You seem confused about what equality is about ...

uhdeuidheuidhed@thelemmy.club · 0 pts · 1y

I'll accept that feminism is about furthering the rights of women.

It's not about equality, though, which is why we never hear feminists complaining about men in the draft or a lack of female representation in sanitation services.

It's also a terrible word to use if it is about equality because it clearly favors one group over others. If you want to support equality, you should use a different word.

npdean@lemmy.today · -10 pts · 1y (11 replies)

I kind of agree on this. Women cannot expect equal pay for less work.

Tacoma@feddit.org · 7 pts · 1y (10 replies)

But that's not what they are expecting. They expect to not have to work if they are sick. And that should apply to anyone, shouldn't it? Which leaves the question, who has to care for the sick? Historically that would be the family, but nowerdays with the focus on individualism, either everyone has to care (e.g. by some health care system) or we just accept that sick people are not cared for in our society and hope that we don't get sick. I know I prefer the first solution

npdean@lemmy.today · -2 pts · 1y (9 replies)

The problem is grey area in what sick means when it comes to periods. Is low mood sick? Is PMS sick? Is pain during periods sick? Is being irritable sick? This makes it seem like an excuse at time.

Men should also be then allowed to take leaves when they feel like shit or something. Point is equal pay for equal work. Women can’t expect to be CEOs and stuff when they don’t put in equal work. There are women who get to high posts inspite of all these problems and I respect that. I guess it is more of an individual to individual thing about who puts in efforts, who is truthful, etc.

Seleni@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y (5 replies)

I absolutely guarantee you one of those things is not like the others. Period pain can be truly debilitating, especially for a person with endometriosis. It is totally worth time off.

Also, I find your insinuation that women take time off for ‘low mood’ and ‘being irritable’ frequently—as opposed to men—rather sexist and offensive, not to mention not reflective of reality.

However, I do like how you inadvertently stumbled into the idea that we should all have more sick days and mental health should be included in the definition of ‘health’. Taking time off for a mental ‘breather’ should be normalized in our society. I also think higher-mental-stress jobs like 911 dispatcher should get more mental health off-time.

npdean@lemmy.today · -1 pts · 1y (4 replies)

If it is a diagnosed disease, then time off is no brainer. However, then they should not expect any promotions over other people without the disease (assuming equal work/hour).

Also, I find your insinuation that women take time off for ‘low mood’ and ‘being irritable’ frequently—as opposed to men—rather sexist and offensive, not to mention not reflective of reality.

I don't have data, it is based on my observations of people and opinions. I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

inadvertently stumbled into the idea

Because anyone other than "feminists" does not have a brain to come up with ideas intentionally. This statement is the perfect example why feminism is being promoted in an extremely stupid way. You attack the very people who are willing to engage in constructive discussions by calling them stupid. Then, you are surprised when they fight back and call them sexist pigs. No wonder men hate feminism as a movement.

Seleni@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y

And where in my previous post did I call you stupid?

You speak of mental health days in a derogatory way, as if you find the very idea that people should take care of their mental as well as physical health offensive, for reasons I don’t understand.

I’m saying that your mocking statement about taking days off for such things should in fact be something we do, and something we should find acceptable to do.

Pandantic@midwest.social · 2 pts · 1y (2 replies)

then they should not expect any promotions over other people without the disease (assuming equal work/hour).

Are you saying if they work the same hours, but take off more of their sick days because of a disease, they shouldn’t get a promotion?

npdean@lemmy.today · -1 pts · 1y

No, I am assuming that they do the same amount of work per hour

emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 1y (1 reply)

If someone is sick, and gets certified as such by a licenced medical doctor, they get leave. Why is this so complicated?

npdean@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 1y

A clear certificate, then yes.

Tacoma@feddit.org · 1 pts · 1y

I agree that there is a big grey area on what is too sick to work, but with my proposal at least we are a big step further and instead of the employer deciding for you (who wants you to work for them) or you deciding on your own (who might not want to come to work after a night partying), there is now an (hopefully) independant entity, the doctor who decides.

But I have to admit that of course the doctor can only listen to the patient and decide based on that, because there is just no way to measure pain/sickness objectively. So in the end we have to trust people to decide on their own if they are sick.

With your proposed solution of x sick days, I guess that many people that are actually too sick for work have to work just because they don't have enough days, while some that don't get sick might use their sick days anyway, because they have them. And even with my solution, realistically there will be a lot of people going to work when they should rest, while there will also be people that use the system to rest after celebrating. I don't think a perfectly fair system is possible, but I prefer the system where people are not exploited and supressed.

Coming back to your argument on periods, like I said, there is no way to measure someones pain besides asking them, and ignoring their answer is not the solution, so yes women should be able to take leaves for period pain. And yes, men should be able to take leaves if they feel like crap, even if that might mean taking of a day off that they might have been able to work. In the end the grey area is not perfectly convertable to able to work/not able to work.

IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world · 31 pts · 1y (6 replies)

feminist as in "tear down unjust hierarchies", and definitely not feminist as in "girlboss yay we need more ladies oppressors"

Noobnarski@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 1y (4 replies)

Exactly, also this "all men are bad and monsters" has to stop. This is not how you get the good men to help you stop and punish the bad men.

But yeah, fuck the patriarchy, women should have just as many rights and freedoms as men do, in theory and in practice.

IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1y (3 replies)

reversing sexism isn't a solution to any issue, it's the irrational hierarchies that are bad, not the fact that it's not your people on top.

also, I don't think I've ever heard a feminist talking about "all men are monsters", but I've definitely heard antifeminist men claim they do.

Noobnarski@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I agree, but sadly I have seen posts claiming that all men are monsters and lots of people agreeing online, and not just once or twice.

IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y

the funny thing is that now, me, a cis man, sitting in the loo, claiming to be pro feminist, is about to write "those aren't real feminists".

I'm laughing while writing this.

don't take me seriously please.

npdean@lemmy.today · 4 pts · 1y

You have not been on social media during that time period, maybe. It was everywhere which led some men to become antifeminist.

tootoughtoremember@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y
monovergent@lemmy.ml · 30 pts · 1y (5 replies)

There are various schools of feminism, some of which have conflicting opinions. But the common feminist standpoints, like equal rights, seem to be just common sense for me, especially in this day and age. I'm not sure where the requirement for equal physical ability fits into the equation.

At least for me, going out and saying that you are feminist carries a sort of special connotation, and since I haven't participated in any explicitly activist events related to feminism, I wouldn't readily emblazon myself with the feminist label even though I stand by those ideas.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 1y (4 replies)

the physical therapist had a misconception of what feminism is, probably due to conservative misinformation that presents egalitarian movements like feminism as forcing men and women to be treated the same, and in this case the PT thought this meant soldiers were being forced to have women on their units that would slow them down or make them less effective because they weren't allowed to vary the tasks based on strength because of "feminism". I'm not even sure her story was based in reality, tbh - I'm not sure whether the military integrates women soldiers that way, but either way she has internalized some griping from her husband about this.

Either way, it's interesting to me you wouldn't identify as a feminist even if you agree with feminism - I wonder what connotations it has, and how those connotations will change if people who are feminists don't own that ... That was part of why I owned being a feminist in my interaction with the PT - she clearly had a misunderstanding of what feminism is, so I clarified why I see myself as a feminist. Otherwise she might not ever be challenged in her views, and "feminism" just becomes the absurd strawman she rejects.

monovergent@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 1y (3 replies)

If, say, I hear that "Bob is a feminist", I reflexively think that Bob is somehow renowned or outspoken in contrast to the general public for supporting feminist causes, perhaps as an educator, figurehead, or activist. I'm not sure what other specific situations I would emphasize myself as feminist, but I'd do the same if put in your situation as a way of standing up.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 1y (1 reply)

oh interesting, the idea is that being a feminist is more than just about beliefs, it implies something more, like being an activist ...

I tend to think identifying as a feminist is a lower bar, it just signifies you are in favor of equal rights among genders. I would have no problem identifying as a feminist just broadly - like on a bio, or in conversation.

I have to think about your meaning more, though - I feel like I have some sense of that, it's maybe a bit like being "vegan" - it implies not just a belief, but maybe also actions you take. Perhaps being a feminist implies something like that in your world, that you are actively engaged in the feminist movement - whether organizing, theorizing, etc.

Either way, thanks for expanding my mind!

hakase@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 1y

it just signifies you are in favor of equal rights among genders

It doesn't "just signify that" though, as much as feminists act like it does. The term "feminist" does signify a person who, at least ostensibly, is in favor of equal rights among genders, but using that term also, necessarily, implies belief in the harmful dogma that is inseparable from the term itself (patriarchy theory, etc.). This creates a false dichotomy that makes people feel that in order to support equal rights they must also buy into feminist dogma, and that's not at all the case.

Luckily, though, feminism doesn't have a monopoly on gender equality, and it's important to let people know that fact, both because of how incredibly misleading "feminism just means gender equality" is and because there are plenty of other more useful, more egalitarian frameworks through which to view the push for equality.

degen@midwest.social · 3 pts · 1y

I think the reflex naturally makes sense, but from the people I personally know to be outspoken and definitionally feminist, it's more like calling yourself a feminist says you explicitly side with the feminist cause. Sort of like saying you're anti-racist rather than identifying as someone lacking racism, which is actually a farce when we're all biased.

QueenHawlSera@sh.itjust.works · 29 pts · 1y

I consider myself egalitarian

I feel like the term Feminist gives too much of an impression that I tolerate or encourage misandry, which I certainly do not. That and if you look at feminist groups throughout history TERFs have been the norm, not the exception.

Egalitarian, because sexism cannot be tolerated no matter which direction it's facing.

Diva@lemmy.ml · 29 pts · 1y

I'm a feminist, opposed to any unjust hierarchy really. One of the things that set me off at a young age was how the US never passed the equal rights amendment.

Also in my home country the women's liberation movement was tied up with the communist movement which also is why I have a lot of the politics that I do

DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone · 28 pts · 1y (27 replies)

I don't believe in an -ism. I believe in equal rights. I think the name feminism does more harm than good.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y (21 replies)

Why does the name do harm? If it was "anti-sexism" instead would it be more appealing, or are all "-ism" labels bad in your mind? (Might I ask why the -ism is problematic? Would you have the same view of anti-racism, for example?)

agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works · 18 pts · 1y (12 replies)

Egalitarianism is a better term.

Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 1y (11 replies)

That just erases that, currently, women are far more oppressed than men. Men are negatively impacted by patriarchal society as well, we all stand to gain from its abolition, but erasing that it is women that are most subjugated makes room for opportunists to coopt the movement and shut down women.

npdean@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 1y (9 replies)

This is the kind of thinking that pushes men away from feminism. When there is a clear intention to favor one sex over the other, the other will obviously be much less inclined to help.

Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 1y (8 replies)

There is no intention to "favor one sex over the other." The present system is explicitly cismale-supremacist. Any attempt to erase that weakens the movement and serves to perpetuate sexism against women and non-binary folk. This is similar to the "All Lives Matter" movement as a way to disrupt the "Black Lives Matter" movement.

npdean@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 1y (7 replies)

It might not be the intention but modern day feminism has become so much about what women can and cannot do and how men are pigs.

Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 1y

No, it hasn't. This is the way conservatives frame the feminist movement, but the actual reality of feminism is far more grounded. When you cede the narrative and legitimize the conservative viewpoint, you weaken the movement.

clot27@lemmy.zip · -2 pts · 1y

This.

rbn@sopuli.xyz · 14 pts · 1y (4 replies)

I'm not OP, but many people associate feminism with strengthening women specifically. If you look up the definition it actually does focus gender equality, no matter what gender you have. So from my perspective the term isn't really intuitive.

Another thing I don't like about the definition (at least the one on Wikipedia) is...

Feminism holds the position that modern societies are patriarchal—they prioritize the male point of view—and that women are treated unjustly in these societies.

While I sure get what they mean, I personally don't like to classify one's point of view as 'male'. I agree that there are far more toxic men that seek more and more power. But i don't dislike such people because they are men. I'd dislike their behavior just as much if they were women, non-binaries or any other gender. Classifying a character trait male IMHO is similar to calling a skirt or dress 'women clothes'.

So yes, to me personally, anti-sexism / anti-discrimination or even better pro-equality are more appealing.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · -1 pts · 1y (3 replies)

Do you think women face more inequality than men? What gender inequality is there to address, i.e. why does feminism as a movement of gender equality exist?

rbn@sopuli.xyz · 12 pts · 1y

Yes, I think women face more inquality than men. And queer people face even more discrimination than women. But also cis-men that don't fit well into the traditional gender roles, can face discrimation. I do not object the ideology behind femism. I just don't like the term.

DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone · 9 pts · 1y

I think women do experience more gender based adversities, but I worry framing it like that creates an "us and them" situation between genders. We should fight inequality wherever it exists.

It also misses intersectionality. Not all men are advantaged over all women. A man born in poverty, violence, with a disability, or of a marginalised race, isn't automatically better off than a rich white women born to a good supportive family.

agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 1y

Women face different inequality than men. Where women are treated as valuable property, men are treated as disposable tools or dangerous threats. Feminism has done much to elevate women above valuable property, but men are still treated as disposable or dangerous.

DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone · 12 pts · 1y (2 replies)

Labels that start off as descriptive become prescriptive. People who associate strongly with a label are less likely to have nuance to their views or change their minds. It becomes us and them.

You can become a prisoner of your labels.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 1y (1 reply)

isn't feminism prescriptive / normative to begin with? It's not a neutral description of injustice, it's a call to action, a movement ... no?

I hear you on the strong connection to a label, the way us-them dynamics can be dangerous - but the extreme opposite doesn't seem to work either, so I don't see this as a full justification of rejecting labels. If you are invested in a movement towards equal rights, sometimes having a banner to organize under and communicate by is useful ... it might be helpful to think of a time before the feminist movement existed, and the motivations that exist for the movement.

DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone · 4 pts · 1y

The fact that there are so many definitions of what feminism is, shows that the label is not super useful. If you say you're a feminist, you then have to explain which version you're taking about.

It could be anything from "people should be given equal opportunity" to the extreme "all sex between a man and a women is rape"

Cowbee@lemmy.ml · -3 pts · 1y (4 replies)

"isms" are useful, and the name feminism is perfectly fine.

uhdeuidheuidhed@thelemmy.club · 0 pts · 1y (3 replies)

No it's not. It clearly favors one side, but then people are saying it's about equality.

If whatever feminism is trying to describe is truly about equality, then we should use a term that isn't biased.

Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1y (2 replies)

This is the same as saying the "All Lives Matter" crowd were correct in fighting Black Lives Matter. Women are more oppressed than men, even if everyone is oppressed by the patriarchy.

uhdeuidheuidhed@thelemmy.club · 0 pts · 1y (1 reply)

Not really.

Black Lives Matter is a movement specifically to shed light on how cops abuse their power towards people of color and frequently go unpunished for it. Black Lives Matter is not about addressing how white people may suffer at the hands of police brutality and if you're trying to argue that it is, then you're either disingenuous or ignorant.

You do have a point though, where both feminism and Black Lives Matter focus on one group over people over others.

Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1y

Feminism as a movement specifically sheds light on the systemic violence against women and gender-diverse individuals under patriarchy. That doesn't mean men don't also benefit, but it does shed light on the primary issue.

Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 24 pts · 1y (2 replies)

Yes.

Down with the liars who are talking of freedom and equality for all, while there is an oppressed sex, while there are oppressor classes, while there is private ownership of capital, of shares, while there are the well-fed with their surplus of bread who keep the hungry in bondage. Not freedom for all, not equality for all, but a fight against the oppressors and exploiters!

– Vladimir Lenin, Soviet Power and the Status of Women

CrabAndBroom@lemmy.ml · 17 pts · 1y (1 reply)

Comrades, there is no true social revolution without the liberation of women. May my eyes never see and my feet never take me to a society where half the people are held in silence. I hear the roar of women's silence. I sense the rumble of their storm and feel the fury of their revolt.

  • Thomas Sankara
uhdeuidheuidhed@thelemmy.club · 2 pts · 1y

Thomas Sankara was a true hero that was killed because he dared to threaten the status quo of "haves and have-nots."

MrsDoyle@sh.itjust.works · 21 pts · 1y

I like the Rebecca West quote: "I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat."

hactar42@lemmy.ml · 20 pts · 1y

As a CIS male I consider myself a feminist because I recognize that women continue to face systemic challenges that demand more than just abstract ideals of equality. To me, feminism goes beyond egalitarianism. It’s not just about treating everyone the same, it’s about recognizing the different challenges people face and working to change the systems that create and sustain those imbalances.

I was raised by my mom and 3 sisters, and that gave me a front-row seat to the everyday injustices women face. Everything from subtle slights to overt discrimination to being victim of abuse. It wasn’t theory for me, it was lived experience, just one degree removed. I've seen the strength and resilience of the women in my life, and I’ve also seen what they’ve had to push through simply because of their gender.

Now, as a father with a daughter, I feel an even deeper responsibility to be part of the shift. I don’t just want her to grow up in a world that pays lip service to “equality”. I want her to live in one where she’s safe, respected, and empowered. That means doing more than being “not sexist.” It means actively pushing back against the structures and behaviors (the patriarchy) that holds women back.

I have zero tolerance for toxic masculinity and so-called “alpha male” attitudes that promote dominance, entitlement, and emotional repression. That culture hurts everyone, but it especially harms women by normalizing control and aggression.

I want my daughter and every woman to see examples of men who are allies, not bystanders. Feminism is a promise: to show up, to speak out (or more often shut up), and to help dismantle barriers so that every person, regardless of gender, can thrive without restriction or fear.

SorteKanin@feddit.dk · 20 pts · 1y (3 replies)

I prefer the term egalitarian or something to that effect. I definitely fall under the definition of a feminist, but I think it's sort of ironic that a term for equality has an inherent bias for women in the word itself, even if it is not the intended meaning.

I think the word itself has actually harmed the movement significantly. Turns out the words we use matter a lot. So again, I prefer a more neutral sounding term, like egalitarianism or equal rights.

yermaw@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I think its one of those things that doesnt translate so well outside of its time/place. Here in the UK we had people scoffing at "black lives matter" because "surely all lives matter are white people not as important..". We're not feeling systemic racism nearly to the same extent America is and the movement loses a lot of its power based just on the name. I think feminism has caught the same thing being out of its time.

There's surely some issues still to work on with gender equality, but the main big ones have been pretty much solved as best we can. Women can vote, drive, work etc. On the surface the works already been done.

SorteKanin@feddit.dk · 5 pts · 1y

I think you might be on to something there. I'm in Denmark and Scandinavia have been forerunners when it comes to equality and LGBT+-rights and such, so perhaps the use of the "fem" in the term feels undue for my cultural background.

There’s surely some issues still to work on with gender equality, but the main big ones have been pretty much solved as best we can.

I think this very much depends on where you live. I'd say that even in Denmark, which is very well ahead of most of the rest of the world, there are still lots of gender equality issues. We've only "solved" them in the sense that the laws are fairly equal (not equal to the extent I would like it, but almost), but the culture is still somewhat unequal. Women still take much more parental leave than men do, for instance.

npdean@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 1y

100% agree with this. A lot of people associate feminism with oppression of men.

Nemo@slrpnk.net · 19 pts · 1y

Yes, my whole life. It's how I was raised, but now that I'm an adult, it's also what I choose for myself and how I'm raising my own children.

Feminism is the radical idea that a person's worth, dignity, rights, and social status are not and ought not to be determined by their genitals.

Wahots@pawb.social · 18 pts · 1y (5 replies)

JK Rowling and the other TERFs have kinda ruined that term just like the american right soiled the flag.

I prefer "egalitarian" at this point, less loaded, and gender inclusive. I'm one of those radicals where I want non-traditional families, no gender roles, and all the vanilla straight stuff to all exist side by side in harmony.

Also, women's clothes needs real pockets. And men need cuter clothes like shortalls. That's a world I want to be a part of :)


The one thing I'm not egalitarian about- straight men need to be taught to pee sitting down, or at least lift the seat, damn. I know it's not all of you, but there are a couple of animals out there that need help. :p

GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 1y

The one thing I'm not egalitarian about- straight men need to be taught to pee sitting down, or at least lift the seat, damn. I know it's not all of you, but there are a couple of animals out there that need help. :p

This isn't really a gender issue, either, but I acknowledge men tend to be more of a problem here. But the solution is simple and egalitarian (or feminist, if you prefer): If you make a mess, clean it up. It also works in places besides the bathroom.

DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 1y (1 reply)

What flag?

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y

I think they mean the U.S. flag.

Pandantic@midwest.social · 1 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I want non-traditional families, no gender roles, and all the vanilla straight stuff to all exist side by side in harmony.

What do you mean by vanilla straight stuff?

Wahots@pawb.social · 1 pts · 1y

The traditional ™️ heterosexual family with two kids and a bio dog. Which is totally fine too, in my book.

Sunsofold@lemmings.world · 16 pts · 1y (3 replies)

I call myself egalitarian. It distinctly means what you mean by feminist without being so readily confused with what she means by feminist.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y (2 replies)

ironically I think it's more confusing, if I tell someone I'm an egalitarian they honestly might not know what that word means at all, whereas at least if I say I'm a feminist they are closer to understanding that I'm in favor of women's rights ...

What my physical therapist considers "feminism" is not something I generally take seriously as a real meaning of feminism, it's a strawman, and it feels wrong to me to cede the meaning of the word to something so contrary to the actual context of what feminism is (both historically and in its present forms).

There are a variety of feminisms, but none of them advocate for the kinds of things my PT believed, so ... I don't know, it doesn't seem reasonable to only call myself an "egalitarian" and not use the term "feminist".

DrQuickbeam@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 1y

Don't get too caught up in nuance and small strains of academic philosophy here. The difference is clear:

Egalitarianism is a philosophy that asserts equality among all people. An egalitarian holds the belief or principle that all people are equal and should be treated equally.

Feminism is a social movement born out of the pervasive and systematic disenfranchisement, oppression and abuse of women, which holds to an egalitarian philosophy of equal rights between men and women. A feminist is an advocate for the equal rights of women.

One is an abstract idea that influences modern humanism, liberalism and democracy. The other is a struggle to make that ideal a reality, that has a different face in every different time and place that it's happening. Both are virtuous.

Sunsofold@lemmings.world · 3 pts · 1y

I place the result of 'What's an egalitarian?' as better than the die roll as to whether they will take it as one or the other, or even a third interpretation. If I say egalitarian, and they can't define it, they'll probably go into a questioning mode, which helps make them more open to discussion. The number of people who could define it AND be against it would be minimal. On the other hand, feminist has become almost an epithet to a significant chunk of the English-speaking world. It's a word that shuts down empathy and critical thinking for those people, even if they couldn't define it, which your anecdote helps show it can be hard for people to do at any rate.

hoagecko@sh.itjust.works · 15 pts · 1y

(This comment uses translation software.)

Yes. I am a feminist, though I am skeptical.

Some feminists argue(Article in Japanese) that the gender equality brought about by feminism also liberates men from the suffering unique to them.

I take a similar stance, believing that the 'gender equality' brought about by male feminism, which seeks happiness for men, also liberates women from the suffering unique to them. In some ways, I am a reactionary feminist.

Previously, I was a male feminist with old-fashioned thinking, striving to eliminate only women's suffering, not men's.

However, I changed my mind after the Japanese government, where I live, adopted a policy of allocating "female admission quotas" at prestigious universities, including national universities, as part of its affirmative action program, modeled on America's racial admission quotas.

Even back when I supported traditional feminism, I was critical of the current state of university education in Japan, where there are public women's universities but no public men's universities. I also believe that expanding these quotas to general universities would violate the Constitution, which proclaims gender equality. I cannot trust traditional Japanese feminism, which supports the unconstitutional status quo, and that is why I have become the skeptical feminist I mentioned earlier.

JackbyDev@programming.dev · 14 pts · 1y (7 replies)

I am a feminist because I believe men and women should have equal rights. I think a lot of people fell for the propaganda that feminism is about women over men or something. The thing a lot of men fail to realize is that "the patriarchy" hurts them too. A lot of the things you see men complain about like being told to "man up" or not being able to express their feelings without being mocked are 100% a side effect of patriarchy.

Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 1y (3 replies)

I would love to rephrase the word to "Equalist".
Equal rights for all!

FreeAZ@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 1y (1 reply)

The word you're looking for already exists, it's egalitarianism lol.

Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 1y

Well.The word problem is solved. Hooray.
Can the world now calm the hell down and just be peaceful with everyone playing nice? :(

JackbyDev@programming.dev · 1 pts · 1y

Equal rights for all!

That's what feminism is. That's my whole point about people falling for the propaganda that it means something else.

gens@programming.dev · -4 pts · 1y (2 replies)

"Man up" isn't always about bottling your feeling like the US internet says. More often it's "stop complaining and just do it". And someone has to do "it". And it often leads to growth.

The internet often distorts things.

As for the topic, I am a feminist. The first and second wave feminism, that is. The equality ones. Not the pink haired screaming "all men are evil and should pay" third wave. Everybody screaming "patriarchy" while sitting on their bed, not even looking further then that. Looking at everything black and white.

Actually, I'm kinder to women then men...

JackbyDev@programming.dev · 2 pts · 1y

"Man up" isn't always about bottling your feeling like the US internet says. More often it's "stop complaining and just do it". And someone has to do "it". And it often leads to growth.

I'm sure telling people who are hesitant to open up about their feelings and want to express them more to "stop complaining and just do it" will definitely make them open up about their feelings. 🙄 Way to miss the point entirely.

Not the pink haired screaming "all men are evil and should pay"

I don't think that caricature helps promote gender equality.

npdean@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 1y

As for the topic, I am a feminist. The first and second wave feminism, that is. The equality ones. Not the pink haired screaming "all men are evil and should pay" third wave.

Actually, I'm kinder to women then men...

captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 1y

Yeah, specifically I'm fairly third wave in that I've been convinced of the value of an intersectional perspective, am pro modern sexual liberation (including the freedom to not want it), and generally am more aligned with the feminist critiques of the second wave. Furthermore I find a lot of the fourth wave to a shitshow, though considering the concept of the fourth wave is not based on academic ideas or coherent demands, but rather the idea that social media changed feminist discourse so radically as to constitute a change to a different wave.

Feminism has always had multiple sides, and like most liberatory movements it has people who are cringe, who are counterproductively hostile, and who generally suck. It will try things that don't work or push things in bad directions. Also college students and young people will do it in ways that look terrible. But feminist theory is also insightful texts that challenge cultural biases. And in a time where rights such as abortion are under attack and government officials are expressing their opposition to women's suffrage, the principle of equality and fundamental rights remains even if it looks different now from when our grandmothers and great grandmothers were fighting for the right for a bank account.

HiddenLayer555@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 1y (2 replies)

If feminist just means I think women deserve the exact same rights as men, and same with any other gender, then yes I'm a feminist.

If feminist means a woman advocate who strives to push more female perspectives in a world dominated by male ones, well I'm a cis man so by definition I can't do that. If I want to support that, and I do, the best thing I can do is stop talking and listen.

Azzu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 9 pts · 1y

I think it's a fundamental failure of feminism/people to make men think that they don't deserve a voice, even in support of women.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 1y

hm, don't you think cis men can be woman advocates who help female perspectives be seen?

Thinking of examples here like Poor Things, which is written and directed by men, but which clearly pushes, at the very least, feminist perspectives (if not "female perspectives").

John Stuart Mill's The Subjection of Women likewise comes to mind - we need men taking & putting forward feminist perspectives, to help female perspectives get traction in a patriarchal society.

Listening is helpful (mutually), but I don't think it's the only role for men.

chobeat@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 1y

I'm not, because I do nothing actively in feminist political spaces. I believe opinions count nothing and don't change the world, so I don't want to be bundled up with the plenty of people who use it as a label for virtue signaling while not actually putting the effort in.

steeznson@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 1y (2 replies)

Yes, in the sense that I believe men and women should have equal rights. I suspect people who say they aren't feminists have a different definition of it.

MBech@feddit.dk · 3 pts · 1y (1 reply)

To be fair, the word feminist is super outdated, since it has the connotation of being for women because of the "femi". Well... It kinda was during the feminist movements of the early 1900s, but that in itself was as a fight for equality.

Point is, I'd love a rebrand to something like "Equalist" or something better sounding but with the same connotations.

Zombie@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 1y

The term you're looking for is an egalitarian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism

HuntressHimbo@lemmy.zip · 12 pts · 1y

I'm a feminist and a men's liberation kinda guy. Feminism is necessary and useful as theory and as a movement. It benefits both men and women

UpperBroccoli@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 11 pts · 1y

I believe in equal rights and opportunities for all, be they man, woman, in between or none of the above.

But saying (and perhaps believing) one is a feminist and actually acting like one are often two different pairs of shoes. We all are confronted with so much discrimination, with so much bias, with so much misogyny, it takes active labour to actually behave like a feminist, because no matter how you think about yourself, at some point and to some degree, all that shit we get confronted with every day will rub off on us, and we have to understand that and constantly check ourselves so that it does not influence us in our thought patterns. Constant mental garbage collection, if you want.

That is true for all kinds of discrimination, no matter what it is based on.

Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de · 11 pts · 1y
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hoshikarakitaridia@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I am not a feminist.

Feminism has a variety of different flavors with sets of specific ideals that are not a priority in my view, however the basic idea of equal rights is definitely important to me. The more I think about it, the less I feel I know what I'm talking about which is also why I don't wanna signify I have strong foundational knowledge on this topic. "Equality" is kind of baseline and not what you expect most kinds of feminism to expand to.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 0 pts · 1y

Hm, equality is precisely what I think feminism is about, some of the most famous feminist works like bell hooks' Feminism is For Everybody is entirely about how feminism is an egalitarian movement.

What do you expect feminism to expand to, and why do you think that? It's interesting you feel like you might not know much about feminism - have you read or studied any feminist authors or books (like Simone de Beauvoir's Second Sex)? What has informed your view of what feminism is?

daggermoon@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 1y

The thing about feminism is it benifits everybody. Men are a victim of the patriarchy as are women. I believe feminism is necessary to create a better world for everybody.

brygphilomena@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 9 pts · 1y (2 replies)

I think I'm more egalitarian. But this is largely dependent on what you mean by feminism.

I believe all women should have total agency over themselves. I believe they deserve equal pay, treatment, and rights. I believe them when they discuss their issues and the prevalence of sexual assault and abuse.

I also believe that there are structures in our society that unfairly put them above men. For instance, in child care and criminal sentencing. Women tend to get the benefit of doubt that they are the better parent and that the relationship between a child and a mother is generally more important than that of a child and father. Women also, in general, get lighter sentences for the same crime.

I believe that we should be more equal in the value we place on the relationship between a child and it's father. Raising the importance of how we as a society view that relationship rather than bringing down the importance of the mothers relationship.

I also believe we should lighten the sentences of men to be more in line with women's sentencing. Although that largely falls in line with my personal opinion that criminal sentencing in this country is far, far too harsh.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y (1 reply)

Women tend to get the benefit of doubt that they are the better parent and that the relationship between a child and a mother is generally more important than that of a child and father.

ironically I would give this as an example of patriarchy, as precisely the kind of thing feminism aims to eliminate ...

Raising the importance of how we as a society view that relationship rather than bringing down the importance of the mothers relationship.

I think the feminist approach might be to stop thinking of children as primarily the responsibility of mothers, that both parents should be responsible and engaged, such that the courts wouldn't assume the mother is "the parent", while the father is more like a "provider" (that's the patriarchal setup - women don't earn, they stay home and serve as housekeepers and caretakers without pay or economic autonomy, under the control of the patriarch of the family who earns & controls the money).

Although that largely falls in line with my personal opinion that criminal sentencing in this country is far, far too harsh.

if you are talking about the U.S., there is a huge discussion about prison abolitionism, but I think there is significant overlap between various social justice movements, and contemporary feminism has been focused on recognizing how interconnected these struggles are (we can't just narrowly consider "women", as that often leads to only considering the experiences and rights of cis, middle and upper class, white, and able-bodied women).

brygphilomena@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 1y

This directly brings up the question of what is feminism and the various waves it's gone through.

I would consider the abolition of a "patriarchy" separate from feminism. I think there are various criticisms of that notion and it's rather cultural centric viewpoint. Raising women doesn't have to come at the notion that men must be brought down. I don't consider egalitarianism to be a zero sum game.

If your definition of feminism includes the dismantling of patriarchy, I don't think I'm entirely convinced patriarchy isn't a mislabeling of the underlying systemic issues in our society. And I don't particularly like the implied core issue being men are holding women back.

Society as a whole has radically changed with regards to how women are viewed and their role in this social construct, even with the current political climate and the unfortunate direction it's turned. The feminist movement has found incredible ground and made significant headway, and I'm incredibly impressed and overjoyed to see it.

I still see a lot of change that needs to happen for us to really reach equal footing. But I may not share the same idea of what the root cause of that inequality is.

As for the discussion of other social justice movements, my underlying beliefs remain the same. Raise the lowest among us, provide the same opportunities and social support, and treat everyone with respect.

ultranaut@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 1y

Yes, I am a feminist because I believe everyone has equal rights under the law regardless of their gender.

agent_nycto@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 1y (2 replies)

There's so many flavors of feminism, and some self described feminists have been pretty wack, I'm just gonna be an egalitarian.

BillyTheKid@lemmy.ca · -2 pts · 1y (1 reply)

Then according to commentators in this post you're a "sexist pig"

agent_nycto@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y

The ratio says otherwise

RBWells@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 1y

I will say yes, because I am a woman who has benefited from what feminists did in the past, and don't believe in strict gender roles for men or women, and my kids were all born as girls, I had to work a lot to get them good education, my focus has necessarily been more on advancing the lives of girls than boys, I didn't get boys until I married.

I think humanity as a whole is stronger when women are stronger. Empowering women empowers men too, when we all do more we are stronger, it's not a zero sum thing.

So yeah I think so, yes, soy feminista.

pineapple@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 1y

If a feminist is just anyone who supports woman’s rights then yes I am a feminist. I’m not an activist though I don’t go out of my way to help.

ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 7 pts · 1y (8 replies)

Feminist as fuck!

Feminism is the fight for equality, with a particular focus on the needs of women and folk perceived as women. Men are included in feminism, but indirectly, in that improving equality for women necessarily requires addressing systems, norms and issues that negatively impact men as well.

Sure, it's easy to say that you're "egalitarian" or believe in "equality for all", but those sound bites, whilst heading off the anti feminist folk, completely fail to address the fact that inequality is not equally spread between men and women. When everything else is equal, women still deal with more inequality than men, and feminism is exists because of that fact

DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone · 9 pts · 1y (6 replies)

Can you explain how women deal with more inequality than men?

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 12 pts · 1y (5 replies)

Until 1972, birth control pills were not accessible to unmarried women.

Until 1973, women in most states could not serve on juries in the U.S.

Until 1974, women were unable to obtain a credit card or open a bank account without their husband as co-signer (and unmarried women were entirely unable to have a bank account or credit card).

Until the 1970s, women were not permitted at most Ivy Leagues (e.g. Harvard did not allow women until 1977).

Until 1978, women could be fired for becoming pregnant.

Until 1980, sexual harassment was not considered a form of sex discrimination, and the first legal case where a court agreed a woman was sexually harassed in the workplace was in 1977.

Until 1993, husbands could legally rape their wives in the many states of the U.S.

Until 2010 health insurance companies were permitted to discriminate against women and charge them higher prices than men for the same coverage.

Until 2013, women were not permitted to serve in combat roles in the U.S. military.

One in three women have experienced physical or sexual violence from an intimate partner (compared to 1 in 14 for men).

Women still earn 82 cents to the dollar compared to men, and in 1982 that was 65 cents to the dollar (the situation has not improved since the 90s).

Women experience greater job gaps and unemployment than men.

Only 10% of Fortune 500 CEOs are women.

In 2022, only 33% of university presidents were women.

Women currently make up less than 30% of the U.S. House of Representatives, and 25% of the Senate.

For more: https://www.un.org/en/un75/women_girls_closing_gender_gap

Azzu@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 1y

There are a lot of good points in there, the historical part especially highlights good parts why feminism is necessary.

However, studies show that women simply don't want to be CEOs at the same rate as men. Women personally want to be more in domestic/caretaking roles than men. Women want to take more maternal leave than men. Now of course you might try to explain these in terms of existing structures that push women to think like that, but how do you explain that women in "more equal"/more feminist societies actually more heavily lean into these differences?

Have you ever thought about the remaining gender pay gap being because women want to work less, thus having less experience, thus being paid less for less experience? There are studies that, when adjusting for these differences, find that the gender pay gap is actually 1% or less. It then stands to argue that the gender pay gap has not changed since the 90s because since then, for all variables adjusted, women already get paid the same as men. (Logically, if women were paid "too little", in our hyper-capitalistic world, you would see that companies made of women would severely outperform those made of mixed/male workforce, since companies made out of women workers would have severely lower costs. The fact that this is not the case tends to point towards pay being roughly equal. Anecdotally, I personally know 2 women who were unhappy in a "feminism-pushed" leading role and switched to a more classically women-associated work, and becoming more happy as a result of that.)

I love feminism and it is overall a good thing, but the sole problem I have with it is that it wants to eliminate "too much" inequality. Some inequality is desired because men and women are different in some ways. The hormonal mixture is very different, with hormones strongly affecting our behavior. Thus, it is expected that behavior between men and women is different, thus differences should exist. I don't think the work is done for feminism, but I also think it's doing too much/the wrong thing in some places. Obviously, there's also a massive difference between regions in the world, Finland needing feminism much less than idk, Afghanistan.

DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 1y (3 replies)

For each of those examples women were disadvantaged and men were advantaged. So they both experienced inequality.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 1y (1 reply)

Your original question was to ask how women deal with more inequality than men.

Most people use "inequality" to refer to the short end of the stick in the dynamic - when Ada talks about women experiencing more inequality, she means women are more disadvantaged.

So it seems like your question to me was to ask how women are disadvantaged compared to men, but your response shifts the meaning of "inequality" so that you were originally asking ... what, exactly?

DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 1y

Yeah sorry, I meant inequality is non directional. It might seem like I'm being pedantic with language. But I was unsure if you meant that men's experience was more homogenous than women, so women experience more inequality even within their gender. Which I don't think it's the case. There are more male billionaires and CEOs, but also more male homelessness and suicide.

protist@mander.xyz · 2 pts · 1y

You really missed the point on this one, huh

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 1y

When everything else is equal, women still deal with more inequality than men, and feminism is exists because of that fact

this is such a succinct and eloquent point about why "feminism" is focused on women at all ... this point seems lost on so many men, who seem to think "equality" demands we ignore the way inequality and power is distributed, as if the only approach to the situation is a kind of gender-blindness, and anything else is hypocrisy

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org · 7 pts · 1y

As an anarchist, sexism and cisheteropatriarchy are unjustifiable hierarchies, and therefore I oppose them. In turn, this makes me an intersectional feminist.

ArgumentativeMonotheist@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 1y (2 replies)

If I'm speaking to stupid, sexist cromagnons, I'm a feminist; if I'm speaking to hedonistic, childish third wavers, I'm not.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 1y (1 reply)

haha, but hey - what's wrong with hedonism!? 😠

more seriously, why do you not identify as a feminist with third-wavers? What about third-wave feminism do you find problematic?

ArgumentativeMonotheist@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1y

The postmodern 'sex/gender is just performative' ('there's no natural essence to sex', basically) and the 'sex positive' and pro-prostitution/pornography parts, mostly. 🙃

BeatTakeshi@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 1y

I don't like labels and I never considered myself a feminist but I probably am compatible to this label. I simply try to be a decent person to everyone regardless of virtually everything, and constantly ask myself whether any kind of bias or prejudice played a role in an opinion or decision I made.

razorcandy@discuss.tchncs.de · 7 pts · 1y
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glowing_hans@sopuli.xyz · 7 pts · 1y

I support freedom of women to make their own decisions and live their live as they see fit. I think this makes me a feminist.

brucethemoose@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 1y (1 reply)

Yep. Screw the patriarchy.

As a guy though, uh… I guess I’m passive? For better or worse, my impulse is usually to point to women to do the talking on this subject, who should be platformed instead of some dude fumbling to explain what they don’t experience.

kuberoot@discuss.tchncs.de · 3 pts · 1y

Ironic that, by upvoting this comment in agreement, I'm doing the opposite of what you advocate for...

npdean@lemmy.today · 7 pts · 1y (2 replies)

If feminism means equality, yes. If it means women are better than men, no. If it means women have been oppressed so now it is their turn, no.

BillyTheKid@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 1y (1 reply)

What is it means men get systematically treated better so we need to put our finger on the scale?

npdean@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 1y

I don't understand your statement

18107@aussie.zone · 6 pts · 1y

I don't care about gender. If you want to identify as a man or a woman, then you're free to do that. If you want to identify as something else, that doesn't bother me.

But if you want to take someone's rights away because of who they are and not for what they've done, then I'm against your ideals.

If you call me a feminist for that, then I'll happily accept that title too.

Pika@rekabu.ru · 6 pts · 1y (4 replies)

Yes, as in "women deserve equal rights across the board"

No, as in "feminism is the synonym to and only valid kind of antisexism and every gendered issue should be seen exclusively through women's struggle"

I'm here for the equality of men and women, and believe that only in cooperation, through consideration of issues on each side, we can efficiently combat sexism.

Feminism should not be "us vs them". It should be one part of the larger circle that is looking at how we can improve things for everyone - women, men, and nonbinary people.

We should bridge the gap on all sides, so that whatever gender you are, you have equal possibilities in life, career, and everything else, you are safe and can build your life the way you want.

That means no one should be targeted by sexual harassment and exploitation. No one should be denied jobs or have lower salary based on arbitrary characteristics. No one should be forced to choose a binary gender if they're neither. Kids should not be indoctrinated with traditional gender roles. Etc. etc.

And, honestly, I don't think many will disagree here. Many of those who "do not support feminism" don't mean they go against equality - they are rather concerned about a specific form of particularly loud online feminism pretending men are all evil and that there's no related struggle on men's end.

zqps@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 1y (3 replies)

It should be one part of the larger circle that is looking at how we can improve things for everyone - women, men, and nonbinary people

Modern feminism does exactly that.

I get that people get hung up on the label, but other demographics' issues are absolutely part of it. It's called intersectionality.

Allero@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 1y (2 replies)

The label is important, though, because as long as we call it all feminism, any conversation that does not explicitly target women audience may be maliciously hijacked. I've seen this happening in the wild a lot - people arguing that we steal feminism when talking about issues from another perspective.

Also, speaking of intersectionality, isn't it weird for it to be a subsection of feminism again? Intersectionality commonly includes issues of race, disabilities, transgender individuals, and so on, and as such, men along with nonbinaries who struggle on each of the axis may not get adequate attention and representation under the umbrella of feminism, as again, it's "about women" (it kinda is).

To me, antisexism should cover feminism, masculism (a term recently hijacked by bad actors, but initially coming from the same place as feminism - equality for all, focus on instances of male discrimination), a movement of nonbinary people.

Intersectionality should go above feminism, and above antisexism for that matter. It is about all struggles of all groups of people, and ultimately stands to cover it all - antisexism, anti-racism, trans inclusion, inclusion of people with disabilities, etc. etc.

zqps@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I don't think that's necessarily malicious. Sounds like those people may have a thing to learn about feminism as well.

It's not about being a "subsection". It's not a competition who's on top. It's about recognizing how these issues share a common core and many negative effects, and need to be addressed together rather than competing for attention. That's exactly what intersectionality addresses.

As far as I'm aware, the inclusive movement that focuses on male issues in a way that regards itself in cooperation rather than competition with feminism (after men's rights was successfully taken over by the right-wing) labels itself men's liberation.

Allero@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 1y

Fair enough - but malicious or not, it does cause issues and builds barriers to inclusion.

Talking about subsections is not about competition. It's about unhealthy arrangement that, again, can easily be used to exclude people. It just doesn't make sense to divide it this way.

Intersectionality talks about many issues, and one of them, part of it, is sexism. So, putting it under umbrella of feminism is like putting animals under the umbrella of bees.

My experience interacting with men's liberation is mostly just men going 100% into misandric narrative that men are to blame for anything and everything. As one person underscored it under one such post, "if a woman struggles - it's society's fault. If a man struggles - it's a man's fault". There's no room there for not blaming men for the discrimination they receive.

wizbiz@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 6 pts · 1y

Yes. Because we should strive to treat everyone equally

klemptor@startrek.website · 6 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I am a staunch second-wave feminist. I believe in equal rights and equal respect for men and women and everyone else who doesn't fit into that binary, and that all should be able to work toward the life that suits them best without worrying about traditional gender roles.

It makes me sad to see women who are quick to say they're not a feminist, because they certainly benefit from feminism and I think they'd be rightly enraged if that went away. If they lost the right to vote, to have a bank account or own a home, to pursue whatever education interests them and work in that field, to choose whether/when/how to have children (RIP Roe v Wade), etc. I think a lot of women take a lot of these things for granted, but they exist because of feminism.

Sadly, I think the term 'feminism' has been successfully demonized in online spaces, to the point that many think it's the same as feminazi. In part this is because the most awful and vocal part of any movement draws a lot of negative attention, and subsequently those who are against equality for women can use feminazis as a boogeyman to denigrate the feminist movement.

DomeGuy@lemmy.world · -5 pts · 1y

"feminazi' is kinda like calling a woman a "female". Its use conveys a "I'm a sexist pig" message you do not seem to intend.

Better terms for women who believe that (cisgender) women are superior to men.

  • Feminine Supremacist
  • Feminine Chauvinist
  • Sexist Woman
  • Man-hater
  • Anti-feminist
  • F.A.R.T.
  • Sexist woman
  • Sexist pig

Some of these may covey other messages in their usage.

crazyminner@lemmy.ml · 6 pts · 1y (27 replies)

FYI you can't be a feminist if you pay for the SA and murder of other women.

uhdeuidheuidhed@thelemmy.club · 1 pts · 1y (1 reply)

What is this referring to?

How dairy cows need to be pregnant in order to produce milk, so they're artificially inseminated and kept pregnant throughout most of their lives?

crazyminner@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1y

Yes. They can't consent and they are used like objects, only seen as a means of making milk and more cows.

commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 364d (24 replies)

women aren't cows. cows aren't women. and artificial insemination isn't SA, it's a veterinary procedure.

crazyminner@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 364d (23 replies)

Well cows wouldn't call themselves "women" no, but I'm sure they do have some gender expression that is apart from just their sex. I could have said females, but I don't really like using that word.

These cows cannot consent to having someone shove a fist inside them, it is very much SA. I'm sure colonizers had the same mentality as you when they were SA Women of colour and indigenous women.

commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 363d (6 replies)

comparing indigenous people to animals is gross

crazyminner@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 363d (5 replies)

Thinking just because someone has a different shaped body than you and isn't as intelligent gives someone the right to SA them is gross.

The problem is you being so brainwashed to think it's okay to abuse others that you forget indigenous people are animals. We all are.

commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 363d (4 replies)

indigenous people are animals.

kindly, leave me alone

crazyminner@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 363d (3 replies)

That you think other animals are below you is the problem here. Don't blame me for your human supremacy.

commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 363d

I haven't made any such statements. please leave me alone

commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 363d (15 replies)

doors can't consent to have your keys jammed in them either. the very concept of consent can't be applied to cows or doors.

crazyminner@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 363d (14 replies)

Cows are sentient, you comparing them to objects is exactly the kind of shit feminism fights against.

If a human had the same intelligence as a cow do you think it would be okay to SA them?

commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 363d

If a human had the same intelligence as a cow

I haven't said anything about intelligence, or suggested sa is ever ok.

commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 363d (12 replies)

sentience has nothing to do with consent.

crazyminner@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 363d (11 replies)

Sentience has to do with among many other things, the ability to suffer. These cows suffer because they are SA, have their kids stolen from them and have their lives cut short only to end in some place worse than hell.

So no sentience does have something to do with consent because only with sentience does consent matter. I don't need to ask a tree consent to cut it down because it does not feel anything. I do need to ask other individuals for consent because they can suffer.

commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 363d

consent and sentience are totally unrelated concepts. your response only continues to muddy the waters.

Kennystillalive@feddit.org · 6 pts · 1y

Yes, I am as for me it includes gender equality (same rights for all as well as breaking away from traditional social norms).

Mmagnusson@programming.dev · 6 pts · 1y

Yes, and I don't really feel the need to clarify or weaken that stance by carving a really specific definition or "but not this or that".

I'm a feminist, take that as you will.

Mike_Hunt@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 1y

Id say yes, wouldn't give myself the label though, lots of crap online interactions have made me just want to never talk about politics with randoms ever again, its too mentally draining.

AcidiclyBasicGlitch@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 1y (2 replies)

Yes, bc I support equality. That's it. That's all it means. I try to treat others the way I would want to be treated. I try not to be an asshole to others. I know sometimes I fail, but I don't go out of my way to do it. If somebody tells me I did something incorrect or hurtful, I don't get offended, I just try to do better in the future if I see them again.

I didn't know that supporting feminism was just supporting equality until I was an adult bc nobody ever taught me that. It's not really surprising to me that some people attach other meanings to the word (both positive and negative), or that some people are opposed to it because of whatever negative things they may have attached to it.

It is still very surprising to me that there are people who will openly admit they're just strongly opposed to equality. From my perspective, if you're opposed to equality, that means you're opposed to treating others as you would want them to treat you. You're intentionally being an asshole, and you kinda forfeit any expectations of respect from other people. I still believe you're entitled to the same rights as anyone else, but getting called out for being an asshole is not a violation of your rights. Equality means it's ok to be an asshole to another asshole. That is feminism to me.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y (1 reply)

what is striking to me is how your thinking about feminism is on the scale of your own experiences and interactions with people - i.e. feminism for you is about being an asshole or a nice person to people based on how they interact with you, but not based on their gender ... but what is missing from this is any social or structural awareness of how women are treated differently, not necessarily by individuals, but by policies and more subtle differences, like the absence of women in positions of power (as politicians for example).

Not that there is anything wrong about reflecting on the ways that bias manifests on the individual scale, it just feels so different from what I typically encounter as feminism (which is more about activism and furthering equal rights and so on).

AcidiclyBasicGlitch@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 1y

I think you're misunderstanding my point.

Feminism isn't about being an asshole vs a nice person. It's about equality and it extends beyond gender.

Why are women treated differently? Why aren't they given the same respect as everyone else? Why should anyone be denied an equal place in society based on things like race, class, gender etc.?

My only point about assholes is that an individual who is truly opposed to equality, is simply an asshole. Even assholes opposed to equality are still entitled to the same rights as anyone else, but the consequences of being an asshole (people not respecting or associating with you because you acted like a disrespectful asshole) are not violations of your rights.

VoxAliorum@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 1y (2 replies)

Feminism as often defined:

the belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power, and opportunities as men and be treated in the same way, or the set of activities intended to achieve this state. Is something I agree with support.

I wouldn't call myself a feminist because I think the word is basically broken. Too many people use it in a different way than this definition. Too many people think that if you are a feminist you have to agree with other things or you are not a feminist. I would describe myself as a humanist; I think.

steeznson@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I don't know if I like words being hijacked/appropriated by people with extreme views. The weird semantic shift for words like "feminist" (or "nazi" actually now that I think about it) points to a deficit in the education system in our countries.

VoxAliorum@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1y

I disagree. I don't think people started misusing feminism because they didn't know what it means.

KeenFlame@feddit.nu · 5 pts · 1y

It means if you think women should have the same rights as men. I am a feminist.

Surenho@beehaw.org · 5 pts · 1y (1 reply)

This is insane. Why is everyone redefining the feminist movement!? Why so many "this feminism but"? Feminism is the belief in and advocacy of political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.

Do you believe sexes should have equal rights in society? Yes? You're a feminist. Don't be afraid of the term. That means that you bought up the anti-feminist propaganda. It's like going about saying "I'm against the genocide, but not the kind where I hate the jews or support Hamas or terrorist but I believe in not killing children but of course not the kind of belief where I'd attack israeli sold..." Like wtf is this. That's the definition. Stop tiptoeing. Call it out when you see it. Help your fellow human beings and keep on with your life.

uhdeuidheuidhed@thelemmy.club · -1 pts · 1y

There should be a different word that doesn't favor one side if it's about equality.

Anyone who is tired of people misconstruing the meaning of the word 'feminism' should be trying to find a better word that means what they are trying to convey.

Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1y (2 replies)
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dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I've read that female surgeons have better outcomes and fewer complications than male counterparts:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/2833145

It's possible that is just due to sexism, though - maybe fewer women have access to the educational and professional opportunities that translate to becoming surgeons, so the ones that make it are more skilled on average than men who don't have to overcome those challenges?

Either way, it conforms to your perspective.

re soldiers: I'm not even sure my PT had a clear sense of what was happening in the context, I think she was just repeating arguments her reactionary husband had made, which may not be based on anything true ... like, she presented it as though women who are not fit or physically equal to other male soldiers are being placed into units with men because of feminism, and this slows down and undermines the unit, ignoring the practical problems for ideological reasons like "equality". It's not clear to me this is actually happening in the military, though - I have doubts.

Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y
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NauticalNoodle@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 1y (1 reply)

'Feminist' is one of those terms that seems to have different definitions based on who you ask. I don't know what you call me but I'm a proponent of Equal Rights Amendment full-stop.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y

I mean, that definitely relates to feminism - but I sense hesitation, what definitions do you think people have, what definitions do you have? Which ones are more dominant, or are there more or less legitimate definitions?

protist@mander.xyz · 4 pts · 1y

For me, feminism is egalitarianism, plain and simple. Yes, I am a feminist, and an egalitarian.

dharmacurious@slrpnk.net · 4 pts · 1y

I'd specifically think of myself as an anarchafeminist, so yes, I'd say I'm a feminist. Fuck bullshit gender division, and fuck anybody who thinks someone is less capable because of their genitals or the clothes they wear (or if those things "match" or not)

Mangoholic@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 1y

If feminism is defined as equal rights for all things that are not gender relevant I agree. But there are a lot of really good exception, where it makes sense that we acknowledge differences. Like pregnancy, physical differences and so on. In short everything that can be equal should be.

Coskii@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 1y

I can say I was long ago when it was roughly "women's rights should be equivalent to men's rights" in terms of personal, work, social values and features.

These days and especially in the last 10 years I don't think the umbrella of feminism is large enough to encompass all of the discrimination I have seen through my time existing.

The long and the short of it is people's rights should be similar when applicable, the same when possible.

bizarroland@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1y (1 reply)

Yeah, I'm a feminist. I'm also a masculinist.

Basically, if there's not a good reason to prevent you from doing something, you shouldn't be fucking prevented from doing it.

Who or what you were born as, or what you identify as, in and of itself, is not a good fucking reason.

Motherfuckers that try to prevent other people from living their own lives because of their own assumptions need to fucking fuck off.

yermaw@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 1y

No harm, no foul.

Somehow ive decided to just live life by this mantra and its going OK so far. I don't have to understand or like anything that anyone's doing, but as long as they aren't hurting anyone its fine.

kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 4 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I've always thought of women as people. Wild I know. Also I'm transitioning towards being one so y'know, some selfish desire for women's rights and safety too.

gwilikers@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1y

K but once you get there, you'll tell us if it turns out you're not actually a person anymore, right?

sad_detective_man@leminal.space · 3 pts · 1y

I want to be, yeah. I suffer under patriarchy and want it to change. And I've tasted glimpses of places and times when women and men are safe and free and I want that for everyone all of the time.

But also I'm way too problematic to get to call myself part of the movement. I've got bad history and shitty ideas that I still need to resolve so my contributions to feminism are only things that I can do anonymously. If I notice anyone trying to figure me out irl, I obfuscate and let them settle on their first incorrect conclusion.

DomeGuy@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1y (30 replies)

Of course I'm a feminist. It's one of those sublime categories like "alive" or "pregnant" that has only two possible states.

  1. Feminist
  2. Sexist pig.
TribblesBestFriend@startrek.website · 0 pts · 1y

This 👆is the answer

npdean@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 1y (28 replies)

This is the basic problem with how feminism is promoted. If you don’t agree with our views, you are a sexist pig.

This is not a good way to make reluctant people to accept your ideas. It pushes them even further into opposition.

meowgenau@programming.dev · 5 pts · 1y (2 replies)

Can you please be a bit more concrete? What do you think feminism is and which views would push someone into opposition?

dom@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 1y

There are some who use the "feminism" banner to promoted sexism towards men. I've seen posts that talk about wishing for a world where no men exist etc and it gets praised under the guise of feminism.

Imo that isn't feminism, that's just misandry. If you swapped our the word "men" with "women" in those posts, they would rightly be called sexist.

I am definitely a feminist in that i believe in equality and believe that women have had a number of challenges presented to them that men typically dont experience.

I also, however, believe there are challenges that men experience that typically women dont.

npdean@lemmy.today · 4 pts · 1y

Feminism is equal rights and opportunities for everyone. My added thing is equal responsibilities. This is the dictionary type of definition.

Most people (at least the vocal ones) are either completely sexist (both sides - feminazis and sexist men) or think it is only about promoting interests of women.

I can’t give you all the possible views off the top of my head but I'll try.

  1. If you are not a feminist, you are sexist. - There is no nuance or leniency for human nature. This makes skeptics jump to opposition because they feel attacked for their behaviour. Any further push only makes them more apprehensive.
  2. Men have it so good - This is kind of a mixed bag for even me because it is situation and topic specific. Men have had better opportunities for some things like education or jobs, yes. But they have fared worse in some other things like emotions, expectations, dating, etc. Now, if someone who struggles with a lot of things is told "Men have it so much better", they will not agree because any one person can only experience their own problems. On the other hand, there are men who feel women have it too easy with how they can earn money by selling porn, they can get out of situations by crying, how easy it is for women to get laid, etc. I don’t necessarily agree with everything but this is what I have seen people say. So, this makes "Men have it better" laughable for some people.
  3. Where are the equal responsibilities? - Feminism promotes equal rights but (conveniently) ignore the equal responsibilities part. A lot of women like to be damsels in distress and also want to enjoy the perks of freedom and equality. This is something I personally despise a lot.
Nemo@slrpnk.net · 4 pts · 1y (22 replies)

If a person can't accept the basic premise that woman are equal to men, they're sexist by definition. This isn't the fault of "how feminism is promoted".

npdean@lemmy.today · 6 pts · 1y (21 replies)

It is. Most people associate feminism with promoting women and not equality. Most people don’t look up the definition in a dictionary

Nemo@slrpnk.net · 5 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I care a lot less about what word they use than what ideals they espouse. They can call themselves egalitarians or antisexists or whatever label as long as they oppose sexism, misogyny, heteronormativity, and "gender roles".

npdean@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 1y

Agreed. I think as a whole society has started giving more value to words than actions. It is backwards, especially when social media is prone to creating echo chambers for words, and actions go unnoticed.

DomeGuy@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y (18 replies)

"most people" are (1) a much smaller group that you think and (2) wrong.

If your behavior can at all be described as sexist, then you're not a feminist. That includes both Feminism Appropriating Radical Transphobes like JK Rowling.and outright sex pests like Andrew Cuomo.

npdean@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 1y (17 replies)

Well, I can only comment on my social group and that is the only group i am concerned about in this context. So, it is 'most people' for me.

If your behavior can at all be described as sexist, then you're not a feminist.

I hate this polar thinking so much. Everything is not all or none, yes or no, black or white. People are unique and everything is a spectrum. Even Hitler had admirable qualities and if this makes you uneasy, you need to open up your mind.

anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 1y (14 replies)

Even Hitler had admirable qualities

But certainly the most relevant quality he had was his rabid, genocidal antisemitism, right?

You wouldn't complain about him being labeled as a eugenicist just because he painted a little when he wasn't slaughtering millions.

npdean@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 1y

I don’t mix things. I admire Hitler for being a vegan and pursuing art. I absolutely hate what he did with concentration camps.

But certainly the most relevant quality he had was his rabid, genocidal antisemitism, right?

Relavant depends on the thing we talk about. If we are talking about history, he isn't winning any Peace or Humanitarian awards.

DomeGuy@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1y (1 reply)

Not everything is a spectrum. You are either actually pregnant or not-pregnsnt. You're either free to go when the officet is talking to you or you are being detained. You either had consent for sex or you didn't.

For example, if the example you provide to bolster your argument is "Hitler had admirable qualities", then you've jumped all the way past Godwin's law and there's no use talking to you.

npdean@lemmy.today · -1 pts · 1y

Flaw in your argument is that you are comparing states and one time actions with mindset and sum of many actions.

there's no use talking to you.

Yet you did.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y (1 reply)

If you are not a feminist, you don't believe in the equality of the sexes, right?

I'm not sure, this feels a bit like when people complain about "anti-fascist" as a label because it makes them feel pressured to be anti-fascist or otherwise be seen as sympathetic to fascism ... my question is why is anti-fascism (or in this case, feminism) so hard to accept?

I guess feminism works precisely by getting us to think about sexism and whether we think that is acceptable or not - I don't think it's good to be sexist, and I think it's reasonable to feel ashamed about being sexist. Social shame and taboo seems appropriate in this case, no? Like the anti-fascist example, fascists should be ashamed and face taboo for their views.

Not that you're wrong, some people will double-down in the face of opposition, this is precisely why so many fundamentalist churches promote street preaching, it doesn't convert people (which is the reason given for the activity), but it is effective at solidifying the loyalty of the member, since on the street they experience significant opposition, which bolsters their in-group identity. It's like a cult dynamic.

So yeah, it's probably good for social shame to be introduced for sexism, fascism, racism, etc. - but it's not a complete victory, the shame can induce stronger loyalties to those movements for those who still hold the views despite their taboo status.

npdean@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 1y

People are unique and everyone has varying opinions on every topic, so how can they be simplified to a simple yes or no. There is a spectrum for everything. People who are at extremes find it easy to fit in yes or no categories but everyone else feels lost.

For example, there can be a guy in a rural area who supports his family's women by letting them go to school/college, working, dating who they want but he is very adamant that they should not dress and wear makeup like "whores". Would you call him a feminist? Why or why not?

it's probably good for social shame to be introduced for sexism, fascism, racism, etc

Yikes, this is a hard no. People don’t change their views like this. Also, you are being a bully if you shame people for anything. Just because you think you have a moral high ground does not make it okay to impose it on others. You are no different than religious evangelicals if you do.

arsCynic@beehaw.org · 3 pts · 1y (1 reply)

“Ecofeminists examine the effect of gender categories in order to demonstrate the ways in which social norms exert unjust dominance over women and nature. The philosophy also contends that those norms lead to an incomplete view of the world, and its practitioners advocate an alternative worldview that values the earth as sacred, recognizes humanity’s dependency on the natural world, and embraces all life as valuable.” —https://www.britannica.com/topic/ecofeminism

Yes. Because it goes hand in hand with Cynicism, my main guiding philosophy:

Cynic: “an adherent of an ancient Greek school of philosophers who held the view that virtue is the only good and that its essence lies in self-control and independence” —Merriam-Webster

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 1y

The Cynics (notably Diogenes of Sinope) also advocated for sexual relations between relatives (such as brothers and sisters), since incest norms were socially imposed and thus "arbitrary" in the view of the Cynics.

Diogenes also died after eating a live octopus, which is amusing.

Either way, love Cynicism (incest aside and all), cheers!

BillyTheKid@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I believe that I am, but I'm told that my definition is wrong.

For reference, my definition is:

Anybody who believes in equal rights for women.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · -1 pts · 1y

that's about what my definition is too, what do you think other people think feminism means, why are you told your definition is wrong?

hakase@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 1y (8 replies)

Lots of good comments here pointing out problems with feminism, but one that I think hasn't been mentioned enough in this thread that's also directly relevant to the OP is the harmful idea that "if you believe in gender equality, then you're a feminist by definition".

While the term "feminist" does signify a person who, at least ostensibly, is in favor of equal rights among genders, using that term also, necessarily, implies belief in the core dogma that is inseparable from the term itself (patriarchy theory, etc.). This creates a false dichotomy in which people feel that in order to support equal rights they must also buy into feminist dogma, and that's not at all the case.

Luckily, though, feminism doesn't have a monopoly on gender equality, and it's important to let people know that fact, both because of how incredibly misleading "feminism just means gender equality" is and because there are more useful, more egalitarian frameworks through which to view the push for equality.

Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 1y (7 replies)

No. This is the same argument as the "All Lives Matter" crowd using this as a cudgel against the "Black Lives Matter" movement. Women and gender non-conforming people are the ones most oppressed by the current system. Men also stand to gain from erasing it, but erasing the real unequal struggle does real harm.

hakase@lemmy.zip · -4 pts · 1y (6 replies)
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Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 1y (5 replies)

No, again, that's like saying Black Lives Matter held back the anti-racist movement in the US, and that All Lives Matter is the way forward. If the goal is to eliminate sexism, the movement must acknowledge the real struggles facing the world at this moment, which means patriarchy.

hakase@lemmy.zip · -1 pts · 1y (4 replies)
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Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 1y (3 replies)

No. There isn't "feminist dogma." Feminism is not holding women back, nor is feminism holding back men's struggles. The concept of male-domination of society is not "outdated," the overwhelming majority of government officials are men, wealth in society is overwhelmingly owned by men, and traditional gender roles still exist and put women as less than men. Both men and women stand to gain from eliminating patriarchy.

You're fully cedeing the ground to the social reactionaries and MGTOW/Red Pill crowd by doing this.

hakase@lemmy.zip · -6 pts · 1y (2 replies)

There isn't "feminist dogma"

I think we're done here.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 1y

don't back out now, if there is feminist dogma you should be able to point to it - what do you think is being missed here, why do you believe feminism is holding back women?

Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1y

Feminist theory and struggle is not "dogma." That's like calling Black Lives Matter "dogma."

daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 1y (4 replies)

I do believe gender is a social construct that's becoming outdated. And that we shouldn't have nor woman nor men, at all.

Make of that what you want.

Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 1y (3 replies)

The gender binary is becoming outdated, but gender expression is an important part of personal identity. Gender isn't going away, the limiting cage of the pink/blue divide is.

daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 1y (2 replies)

I have my doubts over that. I think expression without label restrictions is more free and organic.

At the end a gender, any gender. Is a sum of behavioral characteristics. But there are too many characteristics that can be flip floped all over the place. And having those layers is oppressive towards people wanting to express outside that label expected set of characteristics. As much diverse layers as we want to create they will never be as infinite as the infinity of the behavioral human spectrum.

On a more political side I sometimes fear that gender expression are used to create dominance groups. "We are Z gender, and I'm the Z gender representative so I get power all over these people". It's easier to dominate groups when they are categorized and segregated. I know is the main big thing about identity politics, which is somehow hot in some places left agenda. But I'm very against it. Only identity that matter to me is human and everything else it not segregable to me.

Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 1y

Gender expression is something people should be able to choose for themselves, including in fluidity, flux, plurality, and however said gender does or does not conform to social expectation. I'm personally "cis," I'm a man, but I also make it clear that people can use they/them to refer to me and that's fine. I see myself as a "less masculine man." That doesn't mean feminine-presenting men need to use they/them, either. Pronouns are personal, and I feel most comfortable presenting myself this way. If my gender were taken from me, I would be less comfortable. It's a form of self-expression.

ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y

At the end a gender, any gender. Is a sum of behavioral characteristics.

This doesn't really align with my experience of gender. Which is to say, I think what you're describing here is a large part of gender, but it doesn't encapsulate it completely. I'm trans, yet I've never had a strong sense of "femininity" or "masculinity". I don't really "get" gender expression, except in so far as it's a tool to have people see my gender. I certainly don't have a sense of it being tied to my internal experience of my gender. Yet for all of that, I've always had a strong sense of gender.

In a genderless world, I don't think we would all be genderless in the strict sense of the term, but more, our internal experiences of gender would be assumed to be unique, and as such, not really something that can be grouped in to labels and compared to other folks. In this world, what we now call gender expression, would just be self expression.

HurlingDurling@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1y

I am neither a Feminist, nor a Machista. However I feel like both genders have equal ability to do anything (except biological things, but that's what science is for). One thing that gets on my nerves is the idea that society says that whomever stays at home is weak... Motherfucker, taking care or tiny humans, dumb animals and somehow keep a whole house clean and disinfected is as much work as any blue collar job (fuck, it might be even harder). On top of that my wife cooks amazing so whenever I can I treat her with whatever she wants whenever she wants it because she fucking earned it, because that's why I'm the one working, and I know she would do the same if the roles where reversed.

frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I don't think so. Haven't really read feminist theory tho.

IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1y

best time to plant a tree my friend

deathbird@mander.xyz · 2 pts · 1y

I think people get too hung up on labels sometimes, but that said... If you're a feminist, then so am I. I don't think your PT's understanding was correct.

Core_of_Arden@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1y

I guess I'm a feminist, but I don't really call myself a feminist. I call myself a humanist, maybe even an environmentalist, because I believe that all humans, and animals, and the environment should have rights, and should be protected against greedy, scared and powerhungry (sick) individuals.

weeeeum@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1y

I would say I am now. I wasnt a few years ago but after roe v wade being overturned, the subsequent shitshows, as well has government powercreep against rights I believe women should yield, turned me into a feminist. There are obviously issues that men face, but I believe women are most at risk of oppression under this current administration. Especially with how frequently the blatant fascist dog whistle of "traditional family values" is blown nowadays. Republicans are desperately trying to cram women back into the kitchen and domestic servitude.

Dutczar@sopuli.xyz · 2 pts · 1y

Thinking about it, I believe in equal rights, but would prefer not to be called a feminist, because it implies preference to women. Men have some rights where they are worse off than women, like military service, or - at least here in Poland - differing retirement age.

Also, at a certain point, because there's biological and cultural (for a long time, if not forever) ups and downs to each gender, doing equal rights would then be unfair to whichever gender has it worse, which will certainly be subjective. I'm mostly for it in obvious bullshittery like salaries for the same job done or abortion rights, but at some point like maternity and paternity leave, I'm not giving it much thought.

(Also, I'd totally punch a woman anytime I'd punch a man, which is never anyways, but I think most people would call that feminism anyway)

gerryflap@feddit.nl · 2 pts · 1y

I guess to some degree, not very actively though so I wouldn't necessarily call myself one. To me feminism fights for a society where people have equal opportunities, safety, etc regardless of gender. I support that idea wholeheartedly. But I'm not actively fighting for it or anything, which is why I'm hesitant to call myself a feminist.

uhdeuidheuidhed@thelemmy.club · 1 pts · 1y (2 replies)

Nah.

For one, I don't like a term that's supposed to promote equality clearly favoring one side in its name.

For two, most feminists I've met genuinely hate men and think they're owed superiority, not equality, for the treatment of women in the past.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y (1 reply)

How do you feel about Black Lives Matter as a name and slogan?

Do you think there might be a reason feminism is named that way?

uhdeuidheuidhed@thelemmy.club · 1 pts · 1y

Black Lives Matter is a fine name for what it supports.

I didn't study the etymology of feminism, but in practice it has always resulted in fighting for women's rights while ignoring or paying lip-service to men's rights.

There's no feminist platform that advocates for removing men from the draft or including women in it, for example. I don't believe that the differences between men and women, especially today, are great enough to give any preference to one sex over the other. Most of us are suffering because we are poor.

From my experience, feminists will say feminism is about equality to fool people who don't know any better into supporting a cause that is practically about female superiority. They believe it's woman's turn to be the oppressors and to them that is 'fair.'

This is exemplified by how it's socially acceptable (even encouraged) to make disparaging comments about men, but making similar comments about women will get you ostracized. You can't say you're for equality of the sexes if you laugh when somebody says "I hate all men" but get angry if someone else says "I hate all women." Neither is acceptable, but feminists will disagree.

UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1y (1 reply)

Yes, although I really do have to question the capability of concern silos to effect change through society.

Women's rights are human rights. Lgbt rights are human rights. Worker rights are human rights.

The fight for human rights is a fight for us all. United we stand, divided we fall. And holeeeshit are we fucking falling right now.

zqps@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 1y

Feminist theory understood that a over a generation ago, and has evolved into the opposite of a "concern silo" as a result. People really just don't look beyond the label.

RecipeForHate1@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1y

My definition of feminism: a struggle historically led by women to dismantle the structures of power that let cis men hold privileges over other gender expressions

With that in mind, yes, I’m a feminist. I don’t buy into the “no gender” thing, because in the way some people frame it, it erases the lived realities of gender oppression that still exist. The aim should be to dismantle gender hierarchies without ignoring how they operate here and now. Stripped of its anti-oppression context, no gender rhetoric can be co-opted into TERF narratives that reduce womanhood to biology and genitalia and deny gender diversity

Stretching it a bit, I also see animal liberation as part of this struggle, since these same power structures keep female non-human animals in the role of breeders and providers, much like they do with humans

niftybeaks@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1y

My definition of feminism is roughly: People of all genders share equal legal rights and social respect. This doesn't mean biological differences aren't real or shouldn't be considered.

So yes, I consider myself a feminist as I have defined above. I do support biological segregation of things like athletics. I say biological since there are obvious outliers when it comes to hormones, muscle mass, and reaction time differences between the biological sexes.

Allonzee@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y (1 reply)

The first wave was right. (equal legal rights)

The second wave had a good point. (reproductive rights and workplace discrimination)

The rest were just further attempted power grabs that don't even make the people they claim to represent happy. They tried to do what well meaning but ultimately misguided anti racism waves did by claiming gender shouldn't even be acknowledged aka "I don't even see the color." Which is it's own kind of bigotry.

Everyone should be allowed to fill the same role, but while a minority might be ecstatic in the corpo grinder, it made society worse for men and women more generally, and I don't see many women who enjoy being forced into the hunter gatherer role by the capitalists and the convenient femininists whose message they coopted to boost productivity by mandating ALL the poors make widgets for them if they want to subsist.

It hasn't been productive to raise women to believe it is essential that they defy gender norms as if it is their mission in life to do so. More than anyone else, modern feminists have culturally demeaned the role of being a wife and mother in society, which is ironic, since they seem dead set on making women fit the mold of the men they see as their oppressor.

Men and women are different, with different strengths and weaknesses and intrinsic desires. With overlap, there are things that make men happier and things that make women happier generally. We should have equality, but we've been trying to shoehorn both genders to be interchangable in any societal role en masse, and it's taken a massive toll on men and women in different ways.

Edit: Nevermind, everything is awesome, we did it!

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 1y

I think second wave had more than a good point, it is arguably where the greatest gains occurred in terms of changes to pay gaps, access to education, entrance to the workforce, and so on. The 1970s in particular saw huge changes in women's rights, and the results were born out through the 80s and 90s.

I don't understand why you think anti-racism and understanding that gender cannot be understood without also taking into account the role race plays is so misguided, it seems entirely reasonable and demonstrated to me - we see this even with the way anti-trans panic is resulting in cis women of color being targeted in bathrooms - this demonstrates the ways femininity and the way "woman" as a social class and ideal is based around racial characteristics, with white women serving as a model for how women "should" look.

Either way, criticizing women entering the workplace and leaving the home was a second-wave thing anyway - and to be generous to you, while I think there are better ways to make the arguments you are making (i.e. there is some truth to your critiques - see Elizabeth Warren's Two Income Trap as an example of the argument you were making about women entering the workplace and not being that much better for it, in a sense), what I wonder is why you seem to make these arguments without being on the side of the feminists - i.e., why does it feel like you are critical of feminism as an outsider, and not someone who is wishing the movement did a better job of addressing injustices?

This has a profound effect on how I interpret and read your critique, as a critique that helps move the egalitarian movement forward is helpful, but as a critique that comes across as anti-feminist, it comes across that you have either not fully considered or just are not concerned about the situation women were in before they were able to enter the workplace and have more economic autonomy.

Sure, there might be real problems with the way feminists sometimes idealize masculinity as an ideal for women (a problem no doubt that comes from patriarchy: when men have the autonomy those feminist women are seeking, it's easier to emulate and assume a male role to achieve that autonomy than to upturn social norms - getting everyone else to take femininity seriously is a much harder task than emulating masculinity to be taken seriously), and there might be real problems with the ways capitalism has hijacked and exploited feminism for its own gains, but none of this is being put into context, none of this is comparing to what women's lives were like before feminism carved out these imperfect changes.

So I guess my question is - are you a feminist and invested in gender equality, or are you just making the anti-feminist arguments that you feel you can defend without being decried as overtly sexist?

Ougie@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 1y

I believe that men, women and all other genders that people are constructing these days - whether real or fabricated, zero fucks - should be treated equally in the eyes of the law, they should have equal pay, should be given the same opportunities and should be treated with equal respect. If that makes me a feminist, then cool.

I also believe that the reason the term gets a bad rap sometimes is because of the general stage humanity finds itself in. Consider this, for hundreds and hundreds of years men had the upper hand and only very recently did we start this process of equalizing women.

I imagine society like a car going down the road, when you lose control in a turn, the knee-jerk reaction is to steer the other direction and for a brief moment there you're going way over to the other side before eventually correcting/ normalizing your course. Imho this is what happens with every new concept that gets introduced, there's an overreach before normality ensues.

It's even more pronounced with LGBTQ people. They were hidden, non existent in the eyes of society, and now we're at the parade stage. My prediction is that soon there will be no need for it.

deadcatbounce@reddthat.com · 0 pts · 1y (2 replies)

I'm an egalitarian. I believe women and women are, and should be treated, equal(ly).

The clue is in the name feminist. Feminism is about equality in the same way an advocate of masculinism is an advocate of equality.

MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 1y

That's unfortunately not how words work.

Get into etymology and you'd be surprised at the number of words whose current meanings are complete 180s from their historical definitions.

You can't just look at a word a decide what it means. Very few people use the word feminist to intend what you are claiming it means.

Suggesting they secretly intend your interpretation is mad, and claiming everyone except you is using the word wrong just means youre the one who has its definition wrong.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · -1 pts · 1y

Why do you think feminism as an egalitarian movement is focused on women?

baconmonsta@piefed.social · 0 pts · 1y

I believe in balancing quotas and rebuilding social structures to be more inclusive. That's something that takes several generations to bear fruit.

Shaming or bullying anyone for what kind of body or privilege they were born into is where I draw the line.

edit: those who downvoted this are most welcome to reply this comment and explain their point. I'm open to discuss

LuigiMaoFrance@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I'm a male vegan anarchist and reject every form of mistreatment based on immutable qualities like species, ethnicity, sex etc. At the same time women in my life have consistently broken my trust, which has left me with some generalized cynical views about them. I also believe that the west is at a point where women often receive preferential treatment in sectors like education and hiring, so advocating for them while men are left behind doesn't make much sense to me. I do not consider myself a feminist.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y

I wish I could give you like an award for writing the most Lemmy comment of all or something, lol

I'll write a more thoughtful response later, but in the meantime, thank you for sharing 🧡

EDIT:

more serious response time:

I was wondering why you believe women receive preferential treatment in hiring and education, what I have read is that empirically women are more likely to be turned down for jobs and they experience greater rates of unemployment and longer employment gaps than men (in the U.S.).

Do you mean you wouldn't advocate for women in employment and hiring based on your views, or just generally? Because there are still many stark disparities between men and women in the West (including pay, cost of healthcare, sexual violence rates, and so on).

It's surprising to me that you identify as an egalitarian and anarchist, but don't consider yourself a feminist - what do you think feminism is, if not a movement for gender equality?

folaht@lemmy.ml · 0 pts · 1y (3 replies)
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UpperBroccoli@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 10 pts · 1y (1 reply)

folaht@lemmy.ml · -2 pts · 1y
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lazyViking@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1y

Why do you say there are so many more men than women?

bstix@feddit.dk · 0 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I really don't feel the need to identify myself as any sort of -ism.

What matters more to me is how you act. It doesn't matter if someone identifies as a feminist if they don't act like one.

I think I do, but I'm probably not the best to evaluate my own behavior.

Anyway, since we're on the topic, it recently came to my attention that most top charts for media like music, films and online content is absolutely dominated by men. For no particular reason, it's just what people consume. I wonder why. Coming from a place that is seemingly more equal than most of the world, I'm surprised that the people here, even the women, are still consuming more content made by men than by women. So I set out to change my own consumption. Looking through my YouTube subscriptions I found that I myself was watching only content from men, so I started subscribing to more women doing content within my usual interests. I mean, I'm not looking for women doing things because they're women, but rather women doing things that everyone might do, but they just happen to be women. It's difficult. It feels like fighting against the algorithms just to find it, and I gotta say, a lot of the content made by women is still trying to get subscriptions based on the idea that everyone on the internet is a man. Seriously, women. When I'm searching for geeky stuff I'm not going to subscribe to your ass or breasts. Take that shit to OnlyFans or whatever. I actually want to hear or watch the topic from your perspective. And seriously, men.. please behave. It's so fucking cringe to read your lustful comments anytime a smart women dares present her face in any of the serious channels. I definitely understand why women upload less content if that's the feedback they get.

Well, I did manage to find some channels worth subscribing to, and at the moment I'm probably up to a third of my subscriptions being from women. I don't think I can push it much further without having to watch things that I have no interest in or which conflicts with any of my already mentioned points. I'll also have to acknowledge that there are differences in what topics interests men and women enough to post about or consume.

However, finally, I would suggest anyone who ever searches for something to sometimes get the woman to explain it to you instead of choosing the man every time.

npdean@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 1y

However, finally, I would suggest anyone who ever searches for something to sometimes get the woman to explain it to you instead of choosing the man every time.

Yeah, I am not downgrading my experience for the sake of it.

AlHouthi4President@lemmy.ml · -1 pts · 1y (8 replies)
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BillyTheKid@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 1y (1 reply)

You have a very developed viewpoint! Thank you for sharing it!

AlHouthi4President@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 1y
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AlHouthi4President@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 1y (5 replies)
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Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 7 pts · 1y (3 replies)

I'd say you're 70% right, 30% wrong. Liberal feminism has often been a tool of empire, correct, but Marxist feminism is a critical tool for the liberation of the oppressed. Liberal feminists like the early suffragettes were only fighting for the rights of white women, as an example. The way your comment is framed unfortunately erases the need for feminism more than it highlights the imperialists coopting the movement. There are feminists like bell hooks and Angela Davis, Alexandra Kollontai, Leslie Feinberg, etc that point out that it is by uniting the oppressed segments of society that we can all liberate together. Marxism needs feminism, and feminism needs Marxism.

AlHouthi4President@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1y (2 replies)
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Cowbee@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1y (1 reply)

I'm absolutely in agreement that secondary and tertiary contradictions are easier to solve when the primary contradiction is tackled. Social progress for Palestinians will speed along once Palestine is free, and would be stunted if Israel were to succeed in its aims. I do believe that uniting the oppressed in society is ultimately the best revolutionary strategy.

AlHouthi4President@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 1y
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AlHouthi4President@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1y
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CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org · -1 pts · 1y

Yes. I think it's about thinking patriarchy is bad. Almost always that implies preferring equality; the manosphere dudes massively overblow the support for matriarchy. I'm honestly not sure if I would include equality in the definition or not, because of how little that distinction matters in practice.

I should also include that I think patriarchy is real (because anything else is flat-Earth tier, look at Afghanistan), and that many remnants of it still exist in the West. Sometimes people who oppose something they call feminism claim that there's not.

gens@programming.dev · -1 pts · 1y (3 replies)

I wrote here my honest opinion only to be mocked. Fuck you all, I'm not going to answer this online ever again.

And no, I wasn't sexist.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 1y (2 replies)

sorry I think we're lacking context here, is this an alt account? I don't see your opinion here 🤔

why were you mocked?

gens@programming.dev · 1 pts · 1y

I deleted it..

Because I said I hate the man-hating "feminism" that was popular a few years ago, and that I am a good person. Ofc you can't be feminist if you dislike sexist women.

That was only like 1/3 or 1/4 of what I said and you can find it if you search for the deleted reply here, as only that part is deleted.

Edit: I restored it, you can go read and downvote now. Didn't know you can restore.

gens@programming.dev · 1 pts · 1y
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mugita_sokiovt@discuss.online · -4 pts · 1y (9 replies)
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CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org · 5 pts · 1y (8 replies)

She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks.

She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night.

You sure you copy-pasted the right verse number from whatever?

JackbyDev@programming.dev · 1 pts · 1y (7 replies)

Yeah, from Proverbs 31:10 on this chapter is describing what the author considers a "worthy woman".

This is an odd passage. It seems to be encouraging the poor to drink to forget their poverty.

6 Give strong drink to him who is ready to perish, and wine to the bitter in soul.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Proverbs 31:6-7 WEB translation (public domain).

mugita_sokiovt@discuss.online · -1 pts · 1y (6 replies)
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dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 1y

can you expand on why Proverbs 31 is why you are not a feminist, and what you think feminism is?

JackbyDev@programming.dev · 1 pts · 1y (4 replies)

But why?

mugita_sokiovt@discuss.online · 1 pts · 1y (3 replies)
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JackbyDev@programming.dev · 1 pts · 1y (2 replies)

No, why does Proverbs 31 make you decide not to be a feminist?

mugita_sokiovt@discuss.online · 0 pts · 1y
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bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net · -6 pts · 1y (1 reply)
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protist@mander.xyz · 2 pts · 1y

This feels dismissive of feminism, and seems to miss the point by citing a bunch of examples that are anti-feminist. You're getting caught up in political drama and missing that this is a life philososophy that can underpin how any one person fundamentally treats others and that exists independently of current events. The question is, are you a feminist?