True. But actually I don't have a car. My last car decades ago, had a cassette player. But that had Auto Reverse. When it reached the end of the tape it would play the other side without you having to eject the tape and turn it over!
Look at the queen of England over here with a car quartet! We just had a couple hillbillys with banjos in the rumble seat of our jalopy AND WE WERE THANKFUL.
I've never seen a car like this. Mine was made in 2021 though so I must have caught the last ship car out lol. What kind of things do cars even use the internet for? I'm struggling to imagine it
All things that have worked just fine on cars for like at least a decade before the internet was ever invented. You are describing the exact functions of a key fob. They can even open the truck without the Internet!
Not all brands sell these features as a subscription.
I chased this up with Ford over my car. They said we get them for free for the life of the vehicle, and as long as the 4g it needs to work exists. That's got atleast 10 to 20 years left in it.
Why would you buy anything that requires and app, let alone a car? I haven't bought a new car in a while, but if it requires and app, I'm not buying it. I bought a pergola, and originally they said I could use an app to turn the lights on. But I made them install a switch instead. Maybe consider unlinking your life for important/expensive purchases?
Because if literally every new car on the market is doing it, you don't have much of a choice.
(Okay, sure, you could resolve to drive old cars forever -- and that's what I do -- but let's not pretend that's possible for everyone. Even if people were willing and able to accept the maintenance/reliability/safety tradeoffs, which many are not, there simply aren't enough old cars for everybody to drive one.)
That's exactly what I use remote start for. Just leave your car set to 68 or whatever and then when you remote start it will come up or down to temp. Even on my cheapass Chevy that's 10 years old I can remote start it (including the HVAC) and also hold the "unlock" to start the defroster. Now I can't actually change the temp the system is set at without getting in the car, thats true, but that's a real edge case for me when I can just leave it set at room temp pretty much year round. Even the seats and steering wheel will heat up if I left that on beforehand. But maybe you do have a real need to tweak the temp and A/C values on the daily where you live, rather than just have the car resume where you left it at, I wouldn't know.
The closest I know of is some VWs and Hondas allow certain click patterns to do things like roll down all the windows or open sunroofs maybe.
Accords and Passats I think maybe Jettas have done it for decades.
Same for remote start. Which my 10 y/o Subaru does with a fob and as long as I set the heat to the right settings before getting out, works a treat on subzero mornings.
I have two cars made after 2020. Both have a phone app where you can set the internal climate settings in the car. You wouldn't practically be able to do that from a keyfob.
Both also allow remote starting from the phone, with a setting for how long to let the car run before it turns off again. From a keyfob it's normally set to 5 minutes with no option to change it.
Both are quality of life features that aren't really required, but I do use them pretty regularly. If the internet stopped working on either car, they'd act just like any older car that didn't have those features.
That's not the same, though. I don't necessarily know what time I'm going to be done eating dinner when I'm dining out. I can start the car from my phone while I'm waiting for the check, though, even if it's a block away.
nah, pretty simple. set the preferred settings in the menu in the vehicle, then have a fob button to activate it. flash the lights to signal acknowledgement, just like locking and unlocking.
although maybe don't actually flash the lights, since everything is stupidly over bright LED now and it's rude af to be using those unnecessarily
Wow a whole app just for your car? That's pretty fancy. I don't see the appeal personally, but going by the vote ratio I must be in the minority. I like my stuff to be simple
It's done with your phone without line of sight or proximity of your car. The cars with built in security cameras, you can also remote view as well. I don't know of any fob with a TV screen on it.
To add, my vehicle (2011) has its date display (as in the date & time) no longer accurate because it's somehow integrated with the GPS, which has since stopped updating the date, and cannot be set manually. I now keep a little clock in my car that has the date on it to make up for the loss. It's not that big of a deal compared to what others have mentioned, but it was still a shock to me when I found it.
Wow that sucks… in my car the time is off by an hour half the year because I never bother to update it for daylight savings. I assume it keeps a timer running somewhere to keep it on track
Not to rub salt in the wound, but the GPS signals are hitting the car's GPS antenna unless you've disconnected that wire, pulled the fuse to the receiver, or only drive inside hardened RF shielded bunkers. When I was futzing with a little GPS breadboard module the time is what I looked for first, because if you've got that time signal from GPS then you know the thing is working. (PEDANTIC EDIT: The signals will hit the antenna if you're outside unless you've shielded them somehow, even if you disconnect the wire.)
You could use GPS signals to synchronize clocks across the entire planet to within a microsecond while your car could be used to prop a stick up to make a sundial.
I'm going to wager there's something else going on there. If you have a working GPS receiver, a working display (you said you did), a working "clock" that counts seconds and can give something time-like to the display to show (seems like you do), then a switch might be flipped in software and you have a data point about why GNU does what they do.
Thank you for your input. That might be a bit beyond me at this point, but I'll keep it in mind.
I was told it has something to do with Microsoft SYNC / GPS. There were some forum posts, too, about it but nothing that lead to a fix. I may try to update the system again in the future (it's been several years since the last), but my understanding is that it's not a fix on my end or one that can be done at all.
The date actually reset back to probably the earliest date it had and is continuing on from there. Fun... Lol. Again, thanks for your concern!
I do have a followup question. Will the car's navigation/display work? As in does it know your position? If you're able to have it give your directions then that's enough for a "yes." The reason why I ask is if that's the case, then the GPS system is working, handing data off to the infotainment system saying "here's your position and the time of day," and your infotainment system is saying "thanks for that position but the time is for suckers."
Yep. Nav works just fine (though the maps are a little out of date in some areas). It's just the date that won't set itself anymore. The date and time display are separate from the nav screen, for what that's worth.
You’re getting downvoted, but I’m in the exact same position. Car made in 2021, no connectivity at all. I cannot start it remotely - why would you do that? Is it really more convenient than turning a key or pressing a button once seated? I guess people really do like it, I just find it hard to imagine.
Starting the climate control from a distance sounds comfortable, the first few moments of driving can be too hot or cold.
I don’t have a built-in GPS, but if there was one I don’t see a benefit of using my phone to control it.
You start it remotely if you don't have a preheater. Not that idling is great for a car engine, but at least you'll have clear windows by the time you get in the car.
In the summer you can use it to have a cold car to sit into.
Remote climate control doesn't work on ICE vehicles without Remote start or auxiliary preheater.
I am so going to follow your weird moving forward. Didn't even know I could do that. I'll downvote this one manually now and go search for that setting.
Edit: that will teach me not to get on Lemmy before having coffee. My brain thought that was a setting in Voyager. Thanks for this anyway, I'm going to (try to) remember that until it becomes muscle memory.
keeping the navigation database up to date is one. no way to update maps in my Taycan without paying $27 a month for Porsche Connect, which I have never paid.
and I dislike relying on Android Auto given the surveillance inherent in enabling it. it'd be nice to not have fucking subscription navigation maintenance
Not sure why you think Google would exploit your navigation data but Porsche wouldn't. I guarantee both are finding ways to make a profit by bundling and selling the enormous amounts of data users are feeding back to them by using their systems.
I'm not saying I trust Porsche at ALL with my data. Far from it. In fact I at least trust Google to have better software engineering standards, even if their software is inherently surveillance evil bullshit.
But I haven't been able to confirm that Porsche actually DOES log and exfiltrate location or navigation data. Certainly not in my Lexis Nexus report, and there's been nothing I've seen reported about them when a bunch of other automakers have been called out for selling surveillance access.
What I do know is that Google is confirmed to be doing so. Unless I've missed some reporting or leak, I can't confirm that Porsche is collecting, exfiltrating from my car without an active data plan, and selling GPS and nav routing data from it.
Oh for sure, I just meant for those people that do subscribe to Porsche Connect, Porsche is very probably finding some way to monetize all that sweet sweet location and navigation data. I feel like any car that generates telemetry data and has a data connection to the manufacturer, those companies are packaging up and selling off that data to someone. But that's really just speculation on my part.
Problem is, even tho I don't subscribe, the data connection is still there, and it's still used to deliver some OTA updates, and a recall on the battery involves some remote monitoring that, so even tho I don't subscribe I still don't feel entirely safe from being surveilled.
I've thought a bunch about seeing if I can just pull a fuse and kill connectivity without killing anything else, but the battery recall thing is reason enough to avoid that for the time being. Besides, Flock (and other) surveillance cameras popping up everywhere are such a bigger problem anyways that it kinda kills my motivation to bother
GPS, telematics(the driving data your car collects and sends back to the automotive company who built it), over the air updates, some SOS style features like OnStar, maybe satellite radio.
Edit: Maybe apps, and stuff like updates to the onboard owners manual (because some cars don't come with a paper one anymore). Oh. And using your phone as a key.
I was mentioning this issue with my weird little car in another thread.
My car is old enough that it uses a 3g radio to connect to the internet so that things like the NissanConnect app will work. I don't know how many 3g towers there are, but the app functionality definitely doesn't work. The rest of the car works fine, all the accessories work, but the app doesn't.
The car is a 2018, which i think is before the push for subscription heated seats.
I've no clue if I will like them or not. This car I have now is the first I've had with heated seats and steering wheel, I've only turned them on to see if they work, because every day since I bought the car has been over 90°F/32°C.
Do you not have harsh winters? I don't miss them that much in the American pacific northwest (mild 4 seasons climate) outside of a few weeks a year, but when I lived in the American Midwest where the climate is harsher in both directions I really missed having seat warmers when it was below -5C regularly and sometimes going below -20C
It gets down to 4°C sometimes where I live, so not that harsh comparatively. I've experienced -5°C when traveling and it's a whole different thing, my Australian ass was not equipped for that environment lol. Let alone -20, I'd probably just die. But above 0 it feels like good pants are probably good enough.
Honestly the bigger problem here is the opposite; on a 40°C day the seats and steering wheel become lava. I keep gloves in the car just to not burn myself in summer. I wouldn't mind "cooled" seats and steering wheel instead of heated, but that sounds harder to pull off somehow.
It's not the first tone deaf car feature sold in Australia, though. The worst are the holes in the ceiling to let the sun in. Free skin cancer for everyone!
Yeah, 40C sounds just absolutely awful, I'd much rather put up with -20C… and only a little bit because several cars have had air conditioners die on me. But yeah if it's above 0 seat warmers can be a bit luxurious, but aren't worth adding.
I think people who haven't lived in north central/east North America can really underestimate how brutal the winters get there. Not like I can judge, I only know how bad y'all's summers are because of the natural disasters relating to it.
Seat coolers are a thing these days! They use peltier coolers, which are solid state but worse than the refrigeration cycle. It's still luxury, but it's now "luxury trim on a prius" luxury as opposed to only in luxury cars.
But yeah, the major car brands being based in the US (largely in the aforementioned midwest), Germany, Japan, and South Korea really doesn't do favors to folks from warmer climates, and it's easy for the world to forget about your UV issues.
If you know someone's rough location, you can narrow it down a lot more if you know their car details. Especially if you get right down to exact make model year and colour. How many of your neighbours drive the exact same car as you?
Like the person I responded to who thought needing an app to find a charging station was an improvement over just having them all over like gas stations.
I'm rocking a 2006 VW Polo. Thing's a beast. Almost no power, endless tiny things wrong, but I got pushed off the road by a cement pump truck...and I mean...yeah it was "written off" but only because popping the dents and repainting it would be more than it's value. Most of what's gone wrong I've been able to fix myself for less than £100, and going to my friend's place to use his garage and big jack.
I've had to pick a new car in the last year. I chose a 2012. fuck new cars. fuck their headlights. fuck their spying. fuck their complexity. fuck their non-ownership. fuck their cost. fuck their bloated sizes. fuck their blind spots. fuck their driver assistance that interferes with my control of the vehicle. fuck their touchscreens that are absolutely useless in sunlight.
Most cars throughout history have had zero need for the internet. I just hope it does not end up like video games, where they can sell an unfinished product and patch it later. Though there are benefits to that model, but recalls exist for a reason.
I just hope it does not end up like video games, where they can sell an unfinished product and patch it later.
Too late. This is already the case, I don't know of a single EV that wasn't buggy on release and still buggy a year or two afterwards as the manufacturer hunts bugs in a leisurely pace. It already is like in the gaming industry. Don't buy an EV that isn't at least one year old on the market or you will become their free of charge beta tester...
Anacdotaly I suspect most car software bugs aren't hunted or patched at all, unless an exec at the company happens to run into the bug in their personal vehicle and flags it for the development team to fix.
I've heard too many stories of car software issues where the dealer gives it back with a note "reset the battery and tested good" but the bug is still easily reproduced.
A lot of people don't realise SKG is a foothold in exactly that fight. If you establish precedent on something as "frivolous" as video games you can use it on much higher value thing too.
In response to some customer concerns of a dead battery resulting from the DCM continually trying to access the 3G cellular network, which is no longer available
Yup, lost a battery to that (2019 Impreza). Pulled the fuse for the modem, and it's been fine ever since. I never used (or wanted) any of those features anyway.
Just picture it - You drive your Subaru, the off-road adventure car company, to a camp site in a remote area. You wake up after a few days of hiking and camping to return to your car.
The battery is dead. If you camp too close to the car, the key fob being close to the car will leave it in a "standby" mode which drains the battery on top of the car pinging the server for updates.
Is this article presuming that this isn't part of the plan? Auto manufacturers think our brains work like "oh no, my connected service was end-of-lifed. Guess I gotta buy a new car."
People already have been brainwashed on "how many years of security updates does this smartphone model have?", and being paranoid about older-than-a-few-years devices, so you're not far off.
(Not trying to diminish the necessity of software security updates, but at the same time I could not find any Android exploits that do not involve users installing malicious apps, supply chain attacks, or state actors)
You know it might make sense for automotive. The car is the product after all. The quality of the engine is ultimately what drives sales and most of the entertainment is traditionally third party. Making the on board stuff open helps them make a platform for third parties that are safe from manufacturer trying to push them out or collect fees. That environment also helps the manufacturer in its own sales as their cars are where the cultural impact is.
Sharing code makes sense for everybody. It lets them spend a lot less resources on fixing shit if everyone else is also doing that somewhere upstream. With FOSS you can have your cake and eat it too. At some point Google calculated that committing one developer upstream for the Linux kernel can save a company the equivalent of a couple dozen specialist developers downstream in bug prevention and feature alignment across vendors alone.
Unfortunately many companies continue to think about code as if it were potatoes. It doesn't fucking matter who owns the code, it's a functional spec. But hey, look at all the trouble we have explaining why standards are good – nevermind opening code.
Ohh for sure. That is also my position. I was just pointing out that people do not pick a car for the entertainment, but it can sway a purchase. An auto maker that keeps an open platform might have a stronger third party market that helps sway people into their cars, so even in their "we are trying to maximize our profits" still have a reasoning for it. Of course good luck telling senior management.
It makes sense for everybody, except for those with a financial interest in selling and/or haggling over software licenses. That's not only the companies producing the actual software, but also legal firms and similar "specialists" who siphon off money from this system of complex IP law.
IMO the only way to transition to more software being open sourced, is to deconstruct these vested intrests with regulation. We need to fundamentally restructure the way software development is funded, and transition away from a model where ownership is the only thing that's profitable.
Doing that is delicate though, because as backlash from those vested interests, a lot of workers will likely lose their jobs. You need to make sure those people easily find new jobs working on open source, and communicate that effectively, so workers' job insecurity is as low as possible during the transition.
Slate Auto: "Cloud? Oh, you mean that completely optional telematics thingy that's intended more for business fleets! Yeah, that's excluded by default on our vehicle."
No, i was giving an example of something that is called by an outdated term. A Leaf is an EV, but I still call the accelerator the "gas pedal". (Its not even the gas pedal on a modern combustion engine car, its the air pedal)
The car has a button you push to turn it on like a normal car with a pushbutton start.
I have yet to own a vehicle made in the 21st century.
I'm terrified of having to get a vehicle that requires software updates that eventually will stop receiving support. I'm also terrified of getting a vehicle with just generally shitty software. My gf's car has awful software and there's nothing she can do about it.
Just give me 90s era cars again. They last forever and they're easy to repair on your own.
There's lot to be said for physical safety features like side and curtain airbags, or better crumple zones that don't crush your feet, but those were pretty much standard by 2012 so you can have those without all the computer nightmares.
I know I may get flamed for this since it has funding from Bezos but take a look at the Slate Truck (https://www.slate.auto/). Not cellular modem so no tracking (other than app based things. They say like charging and whatnot but you never know). No carplay or android auto, not entertainment dash at all. Hell the windows are old school cranks for rolling up and down.
In my opinion it should be illegal to shutdown as long as they have cars.
I would not buy any device that requires internet access to work with basic functionality.
You can't really write laws that just require people to offer a service indefinitely though. That's how you end up locking some poor bastard in jail who honestly tried to start a good car company up, did the best they could, and then saw it all go under. No one would ever start a car company, lest they risk imprisonment if the thing went bankrupt despite their best efforts. Starting a car company is already a hugely risky endeavor. Now you're asking people to risk imprisonment if the company fails. I'm generally in favor of locking up more CEOs. But there are plenty of ones committing real crimes. We don't need to be inventing new ones to trap otherwise innocent people.
The way to do this right is to mandate a long but still limited period of cloud coverage, say 20 years. And require companies to put up a bond to cover the cost of third-party hosting these ongoing cloud service in the event they go bankrupt. Then also require all essential functions to work without cloud connectivity.
We must create some legalisation on this else a buch of smart cars are going to turn into dumb bricks.
In contrary to what many are saying I don't think going back to plain cars is the solution. I think an open standard would be the solution here to provide an option to self-host or connect to provider.
Doesn't even need a technical solution. Could just be some law that in order to sell a vehicle:
A company has to maintain any cloud support for at least 20 years.
They have to put up a bond that will allow such services to continue even if they go belly up before those 20 years are through.
All vehicle features where cloud connections are not essential to their function must be operable without any cloud connection. So it's fine if after 20 years you can't pull the contacts from your google account to display on the car's screen, or if GPS map updates no longer work. But the door locks or seat heaters better not be cloud connected.
My car is a 2009. I'll be keeping it for the foreseeable future. I'm pretty handy, so as long as the engine doesn't wreck itself (interference engine), I'll just keep changing out parts, oil, fluids, etc...
my 2008 is now a piece of shit and things keep breaking that I don't bother to fix, but I'm considering keeping it alive even though I bought a 2012 to replace it. might want to start investigating that misfiring and why it's eating oil...
after fixing most of the issues required to get the 2012 safetied, I've come to the conclusion that I got a bit scammed and the vehicle might have been partially flooded, so who knows what else might go wrong. every task I've started on it has had a hiccup, even just replacing the license plate light bulbs - the brackets the screws for the bulb cover going into disintegrated, so I had to remove the whole trim piece to replace those. since when do things like that rust out‽
My new vehicle has remote start, but only via the app. It's a useful feature but frustrating that my trim level doesn't also have it available via the keyfob. Once the manufacturer ends support for my vehicle I will lose the feature out-right.
My father's Avalon will never show turn by turn navigation on the infotainment screen ever again because the mobile app it requires is dead. Car is 9 years old.
What's the alternative? Not buying a vehicle? If I wasn't in the US and actually had good public transportation available to me I certainly would forego vehicle ownership. As it stands, it is frustrating to think I will one day lose the remote start feature, but it's not a deal breaker.
Basically every new vehicle made in the last 5 years has connected features. That's why I said "not buy a vehicle" I was using hyperbole to point out that the options are limited if you want a new vehicle without connected features. Options are even slimmer if you have specific requirements for a vehicle outside of basic transportation.
Works until it doesn't. Connected cars go back almost 20 years now. better to research the car and ways to remove telemetry. Base model cars tend to have less telemetry, or none at all.
Those are separate, but equally concerning, things. Connected features are what this article is about, but telemetry is a different issue. On a new vehicle, you might disable the modem but lose several "features," perhaps ones that you effectively have to have.
On somewhat older vehicles that don't rely on connectivity to the same degree, disabling the modem only prevents telemetry data being sent to wherever-it-is that that data goes. That seems to be the sweet spot for me.
The people who buy new vehicles usually do it for the warranty that lasts several years so the cost structure of ownership is entirely predictable.
You can also buy a 25 year old Volkswagen 1.9 tdi. Some years your cost of ownership will be fuel and oil changes (and those cars basically take no fuel), but at some point you'll need new unit injectors costing 2-3x the car's value for a set. Will it be the month after you buy the car, or will it be in 5 years? It's a lottery and you're better off replacing all 4 when it comes to that, rather than doing one at a time.
Cars in the range of 5-15 years of age are even worse because they're more complex and some of the parts are super expensive. And it takes around ~10-15 years to know if an engine or transmission design is truly reliable (if it has big problems, we might find out sooner).
I'm going to use German cars as an example again because those are the ones I know best, but for example when BMW had the M57 diesel, that was basically the best modern diesel engine. 500k km? 700k km? No problem whatsoever. Only real issues would be the occasional injectors, turbo and maybe some coolant hoses, but those usually started surfacing after 300k or 400k km, at which point you expect SOME issues.
Then N57 came out as its replacement and a few years later we knew about the potential chain and valvetrain issues. Kinda sucks, because they'd also moved the chain to the rear of the engine, but you can get it done for a few hundred euros yourself, or somewhere between 1500-3000€ at a shop. But it took nearly a decade before we knew about the crankshaft issues and those are an engine killer. I'm talking a full rebuild of the bottom end with a NEW, not re-ground crankshaft since these have a special coating from the factory IIRC. Prepare around 10000€, which incidentally could be more than the car is worth by the time you find yourself doing this work.
Now that engine's replacement, the B57, has been out for 8 or 9 years and as far as is currently known, it has nearly no typical issues beyond some plastic coolant pipes that get brittle over time. But we don't know what other common issues might start surfacing as more and more of those engines reach high mileages.
Now if what you're thinking is "just buy a Toyota and you'll have no trouble", well, Toyota has made absolutely horrible engines in the past, for example the 2.2 diesel. Head gasket failure was notoriously common. Again, something that you wouldn't necessarily know when you're buying a 5 year old car because the issues haven't started surfacing en masse yet.
I have my eye on a new (to me) vehicle in the next couple of years. I'd gone from planning on buying new but have now settled on the lowest mileage 2019 I can find. New enough to be nice and safe and have physical buttons, old enough not to have all these objectionable "features."
I refer the newest style of vehicles as "spaceships." Call me old fashioned and old guy yelling at clouds, but I want my next vehicle to be, you know, a vehicle.
There's a difference between "has connected features" and "REQUIRES connected features" though. Again, you're making a false equivalency.
Yes, pretty much every new vehicle has some sort of connectivity, and almost all have some sort of paid subscription to use those connected features in the app.
That's entirely different than requiring you to have a subscription and use the app. Most new cars do NOT do that. They still have all the basic functionality without using the connected features, and the features are literally extra features so you can do things outside of the range of the fob, or add some extra things that the fob can't do.
No in want reliability without massive amounts of maintenance and repairs above all. A 20+ year (pretty much how far back you need to go to avoid telemetry) old car is not going to give that, regardless of what anyone says. They will require lots of time at the mechanic way too often, or lots of hours from yourself.
No worries, your cloud vehicle will not survive the cloud. Its electronics are so noumerous and irrepairable that cloud cars will never reach the age of cars build in the past.
I intentionally choose not to buy cars or tvs that have built in software that must be updated for critical features as the end of life issue was obvious from the start.
Can't find any near me, I'd have to fly to another country to get one that's not full of rust holes and decommissioned due to failing safety inspection which doesn't allow for perforation.
I expect my next car will be a used one. If offline cars will be oulawed I guess it's time for (cargo) pedelecs. So there are choices, though increasingly shitty ones.
All good and swell until they're not available and you need to cart around others/start a family/etc. It will work for a subset of the population, but it needs to be gotten in front of now if we want to avoid waste.
Hopefully those in charge will be on this. I know I won't. :(
I have not created the problem. I used to fight against that problem that corporations and other consumers have created. I refuse to support this behaviour financially. Nobody else has been giving a shit.
And you have the gall to accuse me for not being able to do anything by virtue of being old and then dead? No, fuck you, you useless punk. I hope some young idiot will say that to you, too.
Although less integrated with the vehicle’s systems, aftermarket telematics and diagnostic-port (OBD) solutions offer limited cloud connectivity to fill the gap left by OE services when they’re phased out. Unfortunately, most are engineered for fleet services
No mention of Open Vehicle Monitoring System (OVMS) here? Its mostly focused on older EVs where the manufacturer has abandoned the cloud portal for remote management of the car. However, that's nearly the exact problem the article is calling out for other non-EV cars.
I never owned a car but if and when I do my FIRST choice is 'was this car made with telemetry? If yes, are there clear instructions on how to airgap it'
Also I would want to check the laws regarding the paint on the cars so if it is possible to give it a dazzle or AI confusing pattern. I cannot shield it from ALPRs, but I want as little visiblility against other cameras as possible... Of course doing that pattern makes the car stick out.
214 Comments
shweddy@lemmy.world · 144 pts · 17d
You buy a new one so the c level can buy another yacht
ian@feddit.uk · 84 pts · 17d
My car is so old it makes its own cloud!
inari@piefed.zip · 10 pts · 17d
Time to switch to an EV
ian@feddit.uk · 36 pts · 17d
True. But actually I don't have a car. My last car decades ago, had a cassette player. But that had Auto Reverse. When it reached the end of the tape it would play the other side without you having to eject the tape and turn it over!
FrostyTheDoo@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 17d
Time to switch to a CD
AbidanYre@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 17d
F that noise. 8 track for the win!
logi@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 17d
String quartet squeezed in the back seat or GTFO.
Rcklsabndn@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 17d
Look at the queen of England over here with a car quartet! We just had a couple hillbillys with banjos in the rumble seat of our jalopy AND WE WERE THANKFUL.
YerLam@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Luxury! We had a kazoo strapped to a unicycle and we were glad of it! All 15 of us!
PattyMcB@lemmy.world · 76 pts · 17d
I'll never buy a vehicle that requires cloud connectivity for anything. Not a problem!
LastYearsIrritant@sopuli.xyz · 57 pts · 17d
Well, most cars don't REQUIRE it, but most cars lose features if it doesn't have network connectivity.
Good luck finding a car made after 2020 that doesn't have at least one or two features that require the Internet to function.
Zarobi@aussie.zone · 7 pts · 17d
I've never seen a car like this. Mine was made in 2021 though so I must have caught the last
shipcar out lol. What kind of things do cars even use the internet for? I'm struggling to imagine itsorghum@sh.itjust.works · 19 pts · 17d
Remote start, lock/unlock doors, HVAC, windows, and alarm for basics.
khepri@lemmy.world · 23 pts · 17d
All things that have worked just fine on cars for like at least a decade before the internet was ever invented. You are describing the exact functions of a key fob. They can even open the truck without the Internet!
grue@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 17d
They make it go through an app and a cloud service on purpose these days so they have an excuse to upsell you on a subscription.
50MYT@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 17d
Not all brands sell these features as a subscription.
I chased this up with Ford over my car. They said we get them for free for the life of the vehicle, and as long as the 4g it needs to work exists. That's got atleast 10 to 20 years left in it.
JordanZ@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 17d
PowerCrazy@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 16d
Why would you buy anything that requires and app, let alone a car? I haven't bought a new car in a while, but if it requires and app, I'm not buying it. I bought a pergola, and originally they said I could use an app to turn the lights on. But I made them install a switch instead. Maybe consider unlinking your life for important/expensive purchases?
grue@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 16d
Because if literally every new car on the market is doing it, you don't have much of a choice.
(Okay, sure, you could resolve to drive old cars forever -- and that's what I do -- but let's not pretend that's possible for everyone. Even if people were willing and able to accept the maintenance/reliability/safety tradeoffs, which many are not, there simply aren't enough old cars for everybody to drive one.)
sorghum@sh.itjust.works · 10 pts · 17d
I've never seen a fob be able to set climate controls. Either way, I'd rather control my own cloud for the car through home assistant
khepri@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 17d
That's exactly what I use remote start for. Just leave your car set to 68 or whatever and then when you remote start it will come up or down to temp. Even on my cheapass Chevy that's 10 years old I can remote start it (including the HVAC) and also hold the "unlock" to start the defroster. Now I can't actually change the temp the system is set at without getting in the car, thats true, but that's a real edge case for me when I can just leave it set at room temp pretty much year round. Even the seats and steering wheel will heat up if I left that on beforehand. But maybe you do have a real need to tweak the temp and A/C values on the daily where you live, rather than just have the car resume where you left it at, I wouldn't know.
anomnom@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 17d
The closest I know of is some VWs and Hondas allow certain click patterns to do things like roll down all the windows or open sunroofs maybe.
Accords and Passats I think maybe Jettas have done it for decades.
Same for remote start. Which my 10 y/o Subaru does with a fob and as long as I set the heat to the right settings before getting out, works a treat on subzero mornings.
VeganCheesecake@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 17d
Some high end models of years and decades past had a fob with a little lcd display that acted as a remote for the heating and cooling.
CADmonkey@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Off topic, but I noticed your username....China Mieville fan by chance?
khepri@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Beetle fan hahaha. Maybe I had just watched The Mummy or something before picking that one years and years ago
elephantium@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
The 1999 cinematic masterpiece starring Rachel Weisz and Brendan Fraser?
Good flick.
CADmonkey@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 16d
Oh wow I haven't seen that movie in a while.
Zarobi@aussie.zone · 6 pts · 17d
That doesn't need the internet though right? Like a button on your key fob would achieve the same effect?
LastYearsIrritant@sopuli.xyz · 11 pts · 17d
I have two cars made after 2020. Both have a phone app where you can set the internal climate settings in the car. You wouldn't practically be able to do that from a keyfob.
Both also allow remote starting from the phone, with a setting for how long to let the car run before it turns off again. From a keyfob it's normally set to 5 minutes with no option to change it.
Both are quality of life features that aren't really required, but I do use them pretty regularly. If the internet stopped working on either car, they'd act just like any older car that didn't have those features.
CADmonkey@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 17d
My car has a timer to set the cabin at a given temperature by a given time, do you know if your car has a function like that?
kn33@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 17d
That's not the same, though. I don't necessarily know what time I'm going to be done eating dinner when I'm dining out. I can start the car from my phone while I'm waiting for the check, though, even if it's a block away.
mrgoosmoos@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 17d
nah, pretty simple. set the preferred settings in the menu in the vehicle, then have a fob button to activate it. flash the lights to signal acknowledgement, just like locking and unlocking.
although maybe don't actually flash the lights, since everything is stupidly over bright LED now and it's rude af to be using those unnecessarily
Zarobi@aussie.zone · 3 pts · 17d
Wow a whole app just for your car? That's pretty fancy. I don't see the appeal personally, but going by the vote ratio I must be in the minority. I like my stuff to be simple
sorghum@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 17d
It's done with your phone without line of sight or proximity of your car. The cars with built in security cameras, you can also remote view as well. I don't know of any fob with a TV screen on it.
teslekova@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 17d
None of that shit needs the Internet.
Bonesince1997@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 17d
To add, my vehicle (2011) has its date display (as in the date & time) no longer accurate because it's somehow integrated with the GPS, which has since stopped updating the date, and cannot be set manually. I now keep a little clock in my car that has the date on it to make up for the loss. It's not that big of a deal compared to what others have mentioned, but it was still a shock to me when I found it.
Zarobi@aussie.zone · 2 pts · 17d
Wow that sucks… in my car the time is off by an hour half the year because I never bother to update it for daylight savings. I assume it keeps a timer running somewhere to keep it on track
Bonesince1997@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 16d
I'd be out of my mind, too, if the time was off. Luckily, I can set the time. It's just the date that's fully auto / out of my hands.
Zarobi@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 16d
Honestly I barely look at the car time. I usually use Apple drive or Android Auto
historicaldocuments@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Not to rub salt in the wound, but the GPS signals are hitting the car's GPS antenna unless you've disconnected that wire, pulled the fuse to the receiver, or only drive inside hardened RF shielded bunkers. When I was futzing with a little GPS breadboard module the time is what I looked for first, because if you've got that time signal from GPS then you know the thing is working. (PEDANTIC EDIT: The signals will hit the antenna if you're outside unless you've shielded them somehow, even if you disconnect the wire.)
You could use GPS signals to synchronize clocks across the entire planet to within a microsecond while your car could be used to prop a stick up to make a sundial.
I'm going to wager there's something else going on there. If you have a working GPS receiver, a working display (you said you did), a working "clock" that counts seconds and can give something time-like to the display to show (seems like you do), then a switch might be flipped in software and you have a data point about why GNU does what they do.
Bonesince1997@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 16d
Thank you for your input. That might be a bit beyond me at this point, but I'll keep it in mind.
I was told it has something to do with Microsoft SYNC / GPS. There were some forum posts, too, about it but nothing that lead to a fix. I may try to update the system again in the future (it's been several years since the last), but my understanding is that it's not a fix on my end or one that can be done at all.
The date actually reset back to probably the earliest date it had and is continuing on from there. Fun... Lol. Again, thanks for your concern!
historicaldocuments@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
No problem. Hope I helped.
I do have a followup question. Will the car's navigation/display work? As in does it know your position? If you're able to have it give your directions then that's enough for a "yes." The reason why I ask is if that's the case, then the GPS system is working, handing data off to the infotainment system saying "here's your position and the time of day," and your infotainment system is saying "thanks for that position but the time is for suckers."
Bonesince1997@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 16d
Yep. Nav works just fine (though the maps are a little out of date in some areas). It's just the date that won't set itself anymore. The date and time display are separate from the nav screen, for what that's worth.
zerofk@lemmy.zip · 8 pts · 17d
You’re getting downvoted, but I’m in the exact same position. Car made in 2021, no connectivity at all. I cannot start it remotely - why would you do that? Is it really more convenient than turning a key or pressing a button once seated? I guess people really do like it, I just find it hard to imagine.
Starting the climate control from a distance sounds comfortable, the first few moments of driving can be too hot or cold.
I don’t have a built-in GPS, but if there was one I don’t see a benefit of using my phone to control it.
Windows? What?
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 17d
You start it remotely if you don't have a preheater. Not that idling is great for a car engine, but at least you'll have clear windows by the time you get in the car.
In the summer you can use it to have a cold car to sit into.
Remote climate control doesn't work on ICE vehicles without Remote start or auxiliary preheater.
jjlinux@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 17d
Remote start, even if from the FOB, is a life saver where I live. Leaving the car out on a 90⁰ sunbath and just getting in the car is pure torture.
Zarobi@aussie.zone · 2 pts · 17d
Yeah it seems strange to me, but it must be popular for some people.
People here often assume I'm being disingenuous or acting in bad faith, I'm not sure what causes that to happen though. Maybe it's the way I type?
zerofk@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 17d
Posted 38 seconds ago and already downvoted. You might have a downvoting bot following you.
Zarobi@aussie.zone · 4 pts · 17d
I remove my own default upvote from my comments because I'm a weirdo. Maybe that contributes? People see it's already at 0 votes and join in?
Edit: in my client I can see both up and down votes separately. So in this case it's a controversial post with currently equal up and down votes
jjlinux@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 17d
I am so going to follow your weird moving forward. Didn't even know I could do that. I'll downvote this one manually now and go search for that setting.
Edit: that will teach me not to get on Lemmy before having coffee. My brain thought that was a setting in Voyager. Thanks for this anyway, I'm going to (try to) remember that until it becomes muscle memory.
noxypaws@pawb.social · 6 pts · 17d
keeping the navigation database up to date is one. no way to update maps in my Taycan without paying $27 a month for Porsche Connect, which I have never paid.
and I dislike relying on Android Auto given the surveillance inherent in enabling it. it'd be nice to not have fucking subscription navigation maintenance
khepri@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 17d
Not sure why you think Google would exploit your navigation data but Porsche wouldn't. I guarantee both are finding ways to make a profit by bundling and selling the enormous amounts of data users are feeding back to them by using their systems.
noxypaws@pawb.social · 4 pts · 17d
I'm not saying I trust Porsche at ALL with my data. Far from it. In fact I at least trust Google to have better software engineering standards, even if their software is inherently surveillance evil bullshit.
But I haven't been able to confirm that Porsche actually DOES log and exfiltrate location or navigation data. Certainly not in my Lexis Nexus report, and there's been nothing I've seen reported about them when a bunch of other automakers have been called out for selling surveillance access.
What I do know is that Google is confirmed to be doing so. Unless I've missed some reporting or leak, I can't confirm that Porsche is collecting, exfiltrating from my car without an active data plan, and selling GPS and nav routing data from it.
khepri@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 17d
Oh for sure, I just meant for those people that do subscribe to Porsche Connect, Porsche is very probably finding some way to monetize all that sweet sweet location and navigation data. I feel like any car that generates telemetry data and has a data connection to the manufacturer, those companies are packaging up and selling off that data to someone. But that's really just speculation on my part.
noxypaws@pawb.social · 2 pts · 17d
Problem is, even tho I don't subscribe, the data connection is still there, and it's still used to deliver some OTA updates, and a recall on the battery involves some remote monitoring that, so even tho I don't subscribe I still don't feel entirely safe from being surveilled.
I've thought a bunch about seeing if I can just pull a fuse and kill connectivity without killing anything else, but the battery recall thing is reason enough to avoid that for the time being. Besides, Flock (and other) surveillance cameras popping up everywhere are such a bigger problem anyways that it kinda kills my motivation to bother
atrielienz@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 17d
GPS, telematics(the driving data your car collects and sends back to the automotive company who built it), over the air updates, some SOS style features like OnStar, maybe satellite radio.
Edit: Maybe apps, and stuff like updates to the onboard owners manual (because some cars don't come with a paper one anymore). Oh. And using your phone as a key.
Zarobi@aussie.zone · 5 pts · 17d
Sounds like I'm not missing much lol. I just use my phone for that stuff
CADmonkey@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 17d
I was mentioning this issue with my weird little car in another thread.
My car is old enough that it uses a 3g radio to connect to the internet so that things like the NissanConnect app will work. I don't know how many 3g towers there are, but the app functionality definitely doesn't work. The rest of the car works fine, all the accessories work, but the app doesn't.
The car is a 2018, which i think is before the push for subscription heated seats.
Zarobi@aussie.zone · 2 pts · 17d
As a side note, heated seats suck, I don't get the appeal. It makes me feel like I'm wetting myself.
CADmonkey@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 16d
I've no clue if I will like them or not. This car I have now is the first I've had with heated seats and steering wheel, I've only turned them on to see if they work, because every day since I bought the car has been over 90°F/32°C.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Ooh a heated wheel sounds so good in a cold climate
CADmonkey@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 16d
I have a motorcycle with heated grips, im hoping the car's wheel is just as nice.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 16d
Do you not have harsh winters? I don't miss them that much in the American pacific northwest (mild 4 seasons climate) outside of a few weeks a year, but when I lived in the American Midwest where the climate is harsher in both directions I really missed having seat warmers when it was below -5C regularly and sometimes going below -20C
Zarobi@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 16d
It gets down to 4°C sometimes where I live, so not that harsh comparatively. I've experienced -5°C when traveling and it's a whole different thing, my Australian ass was not equipped for that environment lol. Let alone -20, I'd probably just die. But above 0 it feels like good pants are probably good enough.
Honestly the bigger problem here is the opposite; on a 40°C day the seats and steering wheel become lava. I keep gloves in the car just to not burn myself in summer. I wouldn't mind "cooled" seats and steering wheel instead of heated, but that sounds harder to pull off somehow.
It's not the first tone deaf car feature sold in Australia, though. The worst are the holes in the ceiling to let the sun in. Free skin cancer for everyone!
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Yeah, 40C sounds just absolutely awful, I'd much rather put up with -20C… and only a little bit because several cars have had air conditioners die on me. But yeah if it's above 0 seat warmers can be a bit luxurious, but aren't worth adding.
I think people who haven't lived in north central/east North America can really underestimate how brutal the winters get there. Not like I can judge, I only know how bad y'all's summers are because of the natural disasters relating to it.
Seat coolers are a thing these days! They use peltier coolers, which are solid state but worse than the refrigeration cycle. It's still luxury, but it's now "luxury trim on a prius" luxury as opposed to only in luxury cars.
But yeah, the major car brands being based in the US (largely in the aforementioned midwest), Germany, Japan, and South Korea really doesn't do favors to folks from warmer climates, and it's easy for the world to forget about your UV issues.
kn33@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 17d
What car is it?
Zarobi@aussie.zone · -2 pts · 17d
I don't want to dox myself, sorry
jjlinux@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 17d
What? 🤣
Zarobi@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 16d
If you know someone's rough location, you can narrow it down a lot more if you know their car details. Especially if you get right down to exact make model year and colour. How many of your neighbours drive the exact same car as you?
jjlinux@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 16d
Dude was just asking type of car, like "Toyota Corolla", "Porsche Taycan" or whatever, not the VIN number.
timbuck2themoon@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 16d
Like the person I responded to who thought needing an app to find a charging station was an improvement over just having them all over like gas stations.
DamienGramatacus@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 16d
I got a used 22 reg hybrid last year. It's never had to connect to the internet.
kbobabob@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 17d
I'm curious what you would pick today if you had to.
Sturgist@lemmy.ca · 11 pts · 17d
Something from 20 years ago
kbobabob@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 17d
I guess I assumed we were talking new or newer cars.
Sturgist@lemmy.ca · 21 pts · 17d
Oh, we definitely were. If you don't want something connected to the cloud, your options are:
Everything else is a rolling data vacuum
kbobabob@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 17d
I feel the same way about the new cars which is why I'm still driving a 2012. I genuinely have no idea what I would get if I wanted something newer.
AmyAye@nord.pub · 2 pts · 17d
Yeah, I love my 2015 Sonic.
Sturgist@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 17d
I'm rocking a 2006 VW Polo. Thing's a beast. Almost no power, endless tiny things wrong, but I got pushed off the road by a cement pump truck...and I mean...yeah it was "written off" but only because popping the dents and repainting it would be more than it's value. Most of what's gone wrong I've been able to fix myself for less than £100, and going to my friend's place to use his garage and big jack.
mrgoosmoos@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 17d
I've had to pick a new car in the last year. I chose a 2012. fuck new cars. fuck their headlights. fuck their spying. fuck their complexity. fuck their non-ownership. fuck their cost. fuck their bloated sizes. fuck their blind spots. fuck their driver assistance that interferes with my control of the vehicle. fuck their touchscreens that are absolutely useless in sunlight.
PattyMcB@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 17d
Yep... that's what I was talking about
lemming741@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 17d
The 2029 Slate Wagon, Vaporware Edition
M137@lemmy.today · -1 pts · 16d
Do you not read what you write?
PattyMcB@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 15d
Yep... thanks for pointing out my typo, tho!
Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works · 74 pts · 17d
In a sane world, there would be a law that forces certain types of features to always work.
Cloud connectivity can have benefits but honestly, 95+% of a car’s feature does not need the internet
EliteCloneMike@lemmy.zip · 25 pts · 17d
Most cars throughout history have had zero need for the internet. I just hope it does not end up like video games, where they can sell an unfinished product and patch it later. Though there are benefits to that model, but recalls exist for a reason.
AbidanYre@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 17d
Tesla has been selling a "full self driving" subscription for years.
Triasha@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 17d
And if Musk hadn't bought a president, they would have been prosecuted for their crimes.
Denixen@feddit.nu · 15 pts · 17d
Too late. This is already the case, I don't know of a single EV that wasn't buggy on release and still buggy a year or two afterwards as the manufacturer hunts bugs in a leisurely pace. It already is like in the gaming industry. Don't buy an EV that isn't at least one year old on the market or you will become their free of charge beta tester...
quadrant5835@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 16d
Anacdotaly I suspect most car software bugs aren't hunted or patched at all, unless an exec at the company happens to run into the bug in their personal vehicle and flags it for the development team to fix.
I've heard too many stories of car software issues where the dealer gives it back with a note "reset the battery and tested good" but the bug is still easily reproduced.
shroomato@lemmy.world · 23 pts · 17d
We need a Stop Killing Cars movement
wewbull@feddit.uk · 22 pts · 17d
A lot of people don't realise SKG is a foothold in exactly that fight. If you establish precedent on something as "frivolous" as video games you can use it on much higher value thing too.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 8 pts · 16d
I still don't understand why people call the biggest entrataiment industry "frivolous" especially when some stories are better than many films i saw
Soggy@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Just part of a long trend of devaluing all artistic pursuits.
wewbull@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 16d
In this case it's an advantage. If your enemy has a blind spot you exploit it.
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it · 1 pts · 15d
It's a disadvantage here though, it means less people supporting it and politicians ignoring it more
diaphragmwp@discuss.tchncs.de · 6 pts · 17d
I counter: !fuckcars@lemmy.world
thallamabond@lemmy.world · 68 pts · 17d
https://www.theautopian.com/why-subaru-batteries-are-dying-all-across-the-country/
Bryan065@kbin.earth · 30 pts · 17d
WOW... we were trying to hunt down why my buddy's forestor's battery kept dying....
We even disconnected the wire that tells the alternator to stop charging the battery...
thallamabond@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 17d
Affected Forester
2016-2018 Forester 2.5i Premium 2016-2018 Forester 2.5i Limited 2016-2018 Forester 2.5i Touring 2016-2018 Forester 2.0XT Premium 2016-2018 Forester 2.0XT Touring
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Wtf that's so recent
nyan@lemmy.cafe · 18 pts · 17d
Yup, lost a battery to that (2019 Impreza). Pulled the fuse for the modem, and it's been fine ever since. I never used (or wanted) any of those features anyway.
kungen@feddit.nu · 15 pts · 17d
So you'd also get screwed if you routinely are parked somewhere without any cellular access? Nice design.
BigPotato@lemmy.world · 21 pts · 17d
Just picture it - You drive your Subaru, the off-road adventure car company, to a camp site in a remote area. You wake up after a few days of hiking and camping to return to your car.
The battery is dead. If you camp too close to the car, the key fob being close to the car will leave it in a "standby" mode which drains the battery on top of the car pinging the server for updates.
7U5K3N@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 15 pts · 17d
Yep. My toddler hit the starlink button recently. Absolutely killed my outback.
Crazy the bull shit I had to do to start it again.
zerofk@lemmy.zip · 53 pts · 17d
Flying cars sure turned out differently than we imagined in sci-fi.
kn0wmad1c@programming.dev · 48 pts · 17d
Is this article presuming that this isn't part of the plan? Auto manufacturers think our brains work like "oh no, my connected service was end-of-lifed. Guess I gotta buy a new car."
DanceMomsSavedMe@lemmy.zip · 29 pts · 17d
With OTA updates eventually they could FORCE you into buying a new one.
I hate the privacy nightmare cars are turning into.
Yaky@slrpnk.net · 13 pts · 17d
People already have been brainwashed on "how many years of security updates does this smartphone model have?", and being paranoid about older-than-a-few-years devices, so you're not far off.
(Not trying to diminish the necessity of software security updates, but at the same time I could not find any Android exploits that do not involve users installing malicious apps, supply chain attacks, or state actors)
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 10 pts · 17d
My phone has access to my bank app, my car does not.
nickiwest@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
... yet.
Trilogy3452@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 17d
Or it's just incompetence, short sighted planning to please the shareholders
wewbull@feddit.uk · 43 pts · 17d
This is what the GPL was meant to fight against. Having boxes running software that is still under the control of the manufacturer.
Instead people complained that it was hard to use the code at work. YES. THAT'S THE POINT.
WolfLink@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 16d
Sure but that’s also the reason stuff like this isn’t GPL. For-profit software simply isn’t going to use the give-away-for-free license.
InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 16d
You know it might make sense for automotive. The car is the product after all. The quality of the engine is ultimately what drives sales and most of the entertainment is traditionally third party. Making the on board stuff open helps them make a platform for third parties that are safe from manufacturer trying to push them out or collect fees. That environment also helps the manufacturer in its own sales as their cars are where the cultural impact is.
lemmyvore@feddit.nl · 4 pts · 16d
Sharing code makes sense for everybody. It lets them spend a lot less resources on fixing shit if everyone else is also doing that somewhere upstream. With FOSS you can have your cake and eat it too. At some point Google calculated that committing one developer upstream for the Linux kernel can save a company the equivalent of a couple dozen specialist developers downstream in bug prevention and feature alignment across vendors alone.
Unfortunately many companies continue to think about code as if it were potatoes. It doesn't fucking matter who owns the code, it's a functional spec. But hey, look at all the trouble we have explaining why standards are good – nevermind opening code.
InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Ohh for sure. That is also my position. I was just pointing out that people do not pick a car for the entertainment, but it can sway a purchase. An auto maker that keeps an open platform might have a stronger third party market that helps sway people into their cars, so even in their "we are trying to maximize our profits" still have a reasoning for it. Of course good luck telling senior management.
stormeuh@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 15d
It makes sense for everybody, except for those with a financial interest in selling and/or haggling over software licenses. That's not only the companies producing the actual software, but also legal firms and similar "specialists" who siphon off money from this system of complex IP law.
IMO the only way to transition to more software being open sourced, is to deconstruct these vested intrests with regulation. We need to fundamentally restructure the way software development is funded, and transition away from a model where ownership is the only thing that's profitable.
Doing that is delicate though, because as backlash from those vested interests, a lot of workers will likely lose their jobs. You need to make sure those people easily find new jobs working on open source, and communicate that effectively, so workers' job insecurity is as low as possible during the transition.
shininghero@pawb.social · 27 pts · 17d
Slate Auto: "Cloud? Oh, you mean that completely optional telematics thingy that's intended more for business fleets! Yeah, that's excluded by default on our vehicle."
bloogoose@lemmy.zip · 22 pts · 17d
ThePantser@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 17d
I preordered one. I think I might see how to use meshtastic to add remote start. Should be able to have bidirectional status and huge range.
Concave1142@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 17d
You have my attention... but with Meshcore and a repeater magnet mounted to the roof.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 17d
What's a repeater magnet?
Concave1142@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 17d
Meshcore uses a Repeater & Companion Node setup where as Meshtastic is more peer to peer.
Here's a quick video showing the concept I had in my head.
https://youtube.com/shorts/VqjJ67SuRUw?is=070uPwoYDEbeM6fG
shininghero@pawb.social · 2 pts · 17d
The magnet is the antenna mount type, but I personally would use one of the roof rack screw points, to act as structure and a ground plane connection.
blitzen@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 17d
It's an electric truck. You don't need remote start.
I presume you mean remote climate control.
ThePantser@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 17d
Yes but Kleenex and Google. Its a generic term for turning your car on away from the "start" "ignition" button.
CADmonkey@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 17d
Sort of like the gas pedal in my leaf.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Wait. You don't have to press a button to turn it on? That would take a bit of getting used to
CADmonkey@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
No, i was giving an example of something that is called by an outdated term. A Leaf is an EV, but I still call the accelerator the "gas pedal". (Its not even the gas pedal on a modern combustion engine car, its the air pedal)
The car has a button you push to turn it on like a normal car with a pushbutton start.
lime@feddit.nu · 2 pts · 17d
...but they're building a fleet truck...?
0x0@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 16d
Too bad Bezos has his hand in it.
DarkFuture@lemmy.world · 25 pts · 16d
I have yet to own a vehicle made in the 21st century.
I'm terrified of having to get a vehicle that requires software updates that eventually will stop receiving support. I'm also terrified of getting a vehicle with just generally shitty software. My gf's car has awful software and there's nothing she can do about it.
Just give me 90s era cars again. They last forever and they're easy to repair on your own.
Soggy@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 16d
There's lot to be said for physical safety features like side and curtain airbags, or better crumple zones that don't crush your feet, but those were pretty much standard by 2012 so you can have those without all the computer nightmares.
Calfpupa@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 16d
You can get cars as late as 2016 for this
FireWire400@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
I wonder how much cheaper a car without any crap in it could be today if they still manufactured them at scale
irish_link@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 15d
I know I may get flamed for this since it has funding from Bezos but take a look at the Slate Truck (https://www.slate.auto/). Not cellular modem so no tracking (other than app based things. They say like charging and whatnot but you never know). No carplay or android auto, not entertainment dash at all. Hell the windows are old school cranks for rolling up and down.
FireWire400@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 15d
This, but as a compact and without Bezos.
Mio@feddit.nu · 24 pts · 17d
In my opinion it should be illegal to shutdown as long as they have cars. I would not buy any device that requires internet access to work with basic functionality.
Polisheocket@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 17d
Basic stuff like connecting vehicle to WiFi and apple play should be enough imo. Adding internet to a car is just an added cost
Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 9 pts · 17d
Not if they can harvest your precious data.
Polisheocket@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 16d
I meant cost to the consumer
minorkeys@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 17d
We'll see if we get to, given how controlling corporations are rapidly becoming over necessities of modern living.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 16d
You can't really write laws that just require people to offer a service indefinitely though. That's how you end up locking some poor bastard in jail who honestly tried to start a good car company up, did the best they could, and then saw it all go under. No one would ever start a car company, lest they risk imprisonment if the thing went bankrupt despite their best efforts. Starting a car company is already a hugely risky endeavor. Now you're asking people to risk imprisonment if the company fails. I'm generally in favor of locking up more CEOs. But there are plenty of ones committing real crimes. We don't need to be inventing new ones to trap otherwise innocent people.
The way to do this right is to mandate a long but still limited period of cloud coverage, say 20 years. And require companies to put up a bond to cover the cost of third-party hosting these ongoing cloud service in the event they go bankrupt. Then also require all essential functions to work without cloud connectivity.
innermachine@lemmy.world · 23 pts · 17d
The cloud? I've owned many a vehicle who's company doesn't exist anymore XD No car should be tied to any cloud or connectivity crap for use
glitch1985@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Saturn enters the chat.
M0oP0o@mander.xyz · 1 pts · 15d
Pontiac says "hello" and Oldsmobile is hitting on Saab.
glitch1985@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 15d
Holy shit how did this comment make me feel so old. Saturn was the only one that came to mind but I recognize all of those.
M0oP0o@mander.xyz · 2 pts · 14d
Daewoo is the one I wish was still here.
Fun part about Pontiac, they were where most of the Saturn people came from. So those people got to watch gm kill two of their dreams.
ransomwarelettuce@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 17d
We must create some legalisation on this else a buch of smart cars are going to turn into dumb bricks.
In contrary to what many are saying I don't think going back to plain cars is the solution. I think an open standard would be the solution here to provide an option to self-host or connect to provider.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 20 pts · 16d
Doesn't even need a technical solution. Could just be some law that in order to sell a vehicle:
A company has to maintain any cloud support for at least 20 years.
They have to put up a bond that will allow such services to continue even if they go belly up before those 20 years are through.
All vehicle features where cloud connections are not essential to their function must be operable without any cloud connection. So it's fine if after 20 years you can't pull the contacts from your google account to display on the car's screen, or if GPS map updates no longer work. But the door locks or seat heaters better not be cloud connected.
glitch1985@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 16d
Enforcing 20 years of support would be difficult since they'd presumably be going bankrupt/closing anyway so they don't really have anything to lose.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 16d
Bond.
0x0@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 16d
Big automotive conglomerates won't go bankrupt.
If they do, your tax money will bail them out.
friend_of_satan@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 17d
It's crazy that "local first" has to apply to cars now.
AverageEarthling@feddit.online · 13 pts · 17d
My car is a 2009. I'll be keeping it for the foreseeable future. I'm pretty handy, so as long as the engine doesn't wreck itself (interference engine), I'll just keep changing out parts, oil, fluids, etc...
mrgoosmoos@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 17d
my 2008 is now a piece of shit and things keep breaking that I don't bother to fix, but I'm considering keeping it alive even though I bought a 2012 to replace it. might want to start investigating that misfiring and why it's eating oil...
after fixing most of the issues required to get the 2012 safetied, I've come to the conclusion that I got a bit scammed and the vehicle might have been partially flooded, so who knows what else might go wrong. every task I've started on it has had a hiccup, even just replacing the license plate light bulbs - the brackets the screws for the bulb cover going into disintegrated, so I had to remove the whole trim piece to replace those. since when do things like that rust out‽
OR3X@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 17d
My new vehicle has remote start, but only via the app. It's a useful feature but frustrating that my trim level doesn't also have it available via the keyfob. Once the manufacturer ends support for my vehicle I will lose the feature out-right.
tidderuuf@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 17d
Sounds like you own the vehicle and can make whatever modifications you want to it in order for it's features you purchased to work.
frongt@lemmy.zip · 18 pts · 17d
Yeah but that costs extra time and money they shouldn't have to spend
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 17d
My father's Avalon will never show turn by turn navigation on the infotainment screen ever again because the mobile app it requires is dead. Car is 9 years old.
MrSpArkle@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 17d
This is why screen projection should be required by law.
bloogoose@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 17d
OR3X@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 17d
What's the alternative? Not buying a vehicle? If I wasn't in the US and actually had good public transportation available to me I certainly would forego vehicle ownership. As it stands, it is frustrating to think I will one day lose the remote start feature, but it's not a deal breaker.
Earthwormjim91@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 17d
Buy any of the other vehicles out there that don't pull that bullshit?
Lol it wasn't a choice between that car and walking. That's a massive false equivalency.
OR3X@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 17d
Basically every new vehicle made in the last 5 years has connected features. That's why I said "not buy a vehicle" I was using hyperbole to point out that the options are limited if you want a new vehicle without connected features. Options are even slimmer if you have specific requirements for a vehicle outside of basic transportation.
AstralPath@lemmy.ca · 7 pts · 17d
The point is that you shouldn't buy a new vehicle. Buy used.
Blaster_M@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 17d
Works until it doesn't. Connected cars go back almost 20 years now. better to research the car and ways to remove telemetry. Base model cars tend to have less telemetry, or none at all.
blitzen@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 17d
Those are separate, but equally concerning, things. Connected features are what this article is about, but telemetry is a different issue. On a new vehicle, you might disable the modem but lose several "features," perhaps ones that you effectively have to have.
On somewhat older vehicles that don't rely on connectivity to the same degree, disabling the modem only prevents telemetry data being sent to wherever-it-is that that data goes. That seems to be the sweet spot for me.
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 5 pts · 17d
The people who buy new vehicles usually do it for the warranty that lasts several years so the cost structure of ownership is entirely predictable.
You can also buy a 25 year old Volkswagen 1.9 tdi. Some years your cost of ownership will be fuel and oil changes (and those cars basically take no fuel), but at some point you'll need new unit injectors costing 2-3x the car's value for a set. Will it be the month after you buy the car, or will it be in 5 years? It's a lottery and you're better off replacing all 4 when it comes to that, rather than doing one at a time.
Cars in the range of 5-15 years of age are even worse because they're more complex and some of the parts are super expensive. And it takes around ~10-15 years to know if an engine or transmission design is truly reliable (if it has big problems, we might find out sooner).
I'm going to use German cars as an example again because those are the ones I know best, but for example when BMW had the M57 diesel, that was basically the best modern diesel engine. 500k km? 700k km? No problem whatsoever. Only real issues would be the occasional injectors, turbo and maybe some coolant hoses, but those usually started surfacing after 300k or 400k km, at which point you expect SOME issues.
Then N57 came out as its replacement and a few years later we knew about the potential chain and valvetrain issues. Kinda sucks, because they'd also moved the chain to the rear of the engine, but you can get it done for a few hundred euros yourself, or somewhere between 1500-3000€ at a shop. But it took nearly a decade before we knew about the crankshaft issues and those are an engine killer. I'm talking a full rebuild of the bottom end with a NEW, not re-ground crankshaft since these have a special coating from the factory IIRC. Prepare around 10000€, which incidentally could be more than the car is worth by the time you find yourself doing this work.
Now that engine's replacement, the B57, has been out for 8 or 9 years and as far as is currently known, it has nearly no typical issues beyond some plastic coolant pipes that get brittle over time. But we don't know what other common issues might start surfacing as more and more of those engines reach high mileages.
Now if what you're thinking is "just buy a Toyota and you'll have no trouble", well, Toyota has made absolutely horrible engines in the past, for example the 2.2 diesel. Head gasket failure was notoriously common. Again, something that you wouldn't necessarily know when you're buying a 5 year old car because the issues haven't started surfacing en masse yet.
stylusmobilus@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 16d
Almost 400k kilometres and no signs of dying
Painted the bonnet myself
Owned it for three years and have added almost 100k myself
Service it myself except brakes and steering for obvious reasons
Paid $1900 AUD and put about a grand into it, including everything
Does every single thing I want it to and should do for another four years
blitzen@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 17d
I have my eye on a new (to me) vehicle in the next couple of years. I'd gone from planning on buying new but have now settled on the lowest mileage 2019 I can find. New enough to be nice and safe and have physical buttons, old enough not to have all these objectionable "features."
I refer the newest style of vehicles as "spaceships." Call me old fashioned and old guy yelling at clouds, but I want my next vehicle to be, you know, a vehicle.
Earthwormjim91@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 17d
There's a difference between "has connected features" and "REQUIRES connected features" though. Again, you're making a false equivalency.
Yes, pretty much every new vehicle has some sort of connectivity, and almost all have some sort of paid subscription to use those connected features in the app.
That's entirely different than requiring you to have a subscription and use the app. Most new cars do NOT do that. They still have all the basic functionality without using the connected features, and the features are literally extra features so you can do things outside of the range of the fob, or add some extra things that the fob can't do.
UnspecificGravity@piefed.social · 1 pts · 17d
There are plenty of vehicles that have this feature without requiring an app to use it.
bloogoose@lemmy.zip · -3 pts · 17d
ExcessShiv@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 17d
No in want reliability without massive amounts of maintenance and repairs above all. A 20+ year (pretty much how far back you need to go to avoid telemetry) old car is not going to give that, regardless of what anyone says. They will require lots of time at the mechanic way too often, or lots of hours from yourself.
bloogoose@lemmy.zip · -2 pts · 17d
ExcessShiv@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 17d
The entire point of cars is convenience...
bloogoose@lemmy.zip · -1 pts · 17d
lightnsfw@reddthat.com · 11 pts · 16d
You just throw it out and buy a new one. Duh.
DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 17d
We'll need new regulation to stop this. And, we won't get it with the capitalists in charge.
hummingbird@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 17d
No worries, your cloud vehicle will not survive the cloud. Its electronics are so noumerous and irrepairable that cloud cars will never reach the age of cars build in the past.
100@fedia.io · 7 pts · 17d
do motorbikes have these bullshit "features"? guess it's time to learn
thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe · 6 pts · 17d
Most don't. A handful of high end tourers and sports bikes do.
0x0@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 16d
It's starting to creep into the newer ones, but not as much as in cars.
khepri@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 17d
You buy something from before ~2015 and call it day!
snooggums@piefed.world · 6 pts · 17d
I intentionally choose not to buy cars or tvs that have built in software that must be updated for critical features as the end of life issue was obvious from the start.
jackyard@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 17d
Get a ninth gen Corolla and you'll have no problems
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 6 pts · 17d
Can't find any near me, I'd have to fly to another country to get one that's not full of rust holes and decommissioned due to failing safety inspection which doesn't allow for perforation.
eleitl@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 17d
Why are you buying things you don't own?
forkDestroyer@infosec.pub · 23 pts · 17d
Sooner or later that might be your only choice.
eleitl@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 16d
I expect my next car will be a used one. If offline cars will be oulawed I guess it's time for (cargo) pedelecs. So there are choices, though increasingly shitty ones.
forkDestroyer@infosec.pub · 8 pts · 16d
All good and swell until they're not available and you need to cart around others/start a family/etc. It will work for a subset of the population, but it needs to be gotten in front of now if we want to avoid waste.
Hopefully those in charge will be on this. I know I won't. :(
eleitl@lemmy.zip · -2 pts · 16d
My time horizont is 20-25 years. I think I can manage. Younger people should solve it for themselves.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 16d
When did you stop dreaming of the future?
eleitl@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 16d
The future isn't what it used to be.
Soggy@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 16d
This is the boomer mindset that got us all into this mess. Fuck you.
eleitl@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 16d
I have not created the problem. I used to fight against that problem that corporations and other consumers have created. I refuse to support this behaviour financially. Nobody else has been giving a shit.
And you have the gall to accuse me for not being able to do anything by virtue of being old and then dead? No, fuck you, you useless punk. I hope some young idiot will say that to you, too.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 17d
No mention of Open Vehicle Monitoring System (OVMS) here? Its mostly focused on older EVs where the manufacturer has abandoned the cloud portal for remote management of the car. However, that's nearly the exact problem the article is calling out for other non-EV cars.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today · 4 pts · 17d
it bricks permanently.
PennyRoyal@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 17d
My next vehicle will be an early 90s Mercedes.
Microtonal_Banana@lemmy.zip · 3 pts · 17d
Cloud? My vehicle is 26 years old. It has an aftermarket cd player that I installed in 2004.
0x0@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 16d
My '96 vehicle has no cloud and will continue to.outlive many modern ones.
subverted_per@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 3 pts · 15d
Ive got over 350k on my 05' Toyota. I dread trying to buy a newer car.
kazerniel@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 17d
is that image AI generated? the way the sand interacts with the hand just looks wrong
edit: surprisingly not AI, at least the hand and sand are from 2016
xav@programming.dev · 2 pts · 17d
My European car asks me each time I start it if I want to connect to the cloud. And defaults to "no" after 10 secs.
paorzz@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 16d
ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online · 1 pts · 15d
I never owned a car but if and when I do my FIRST choice is 'was this car made with telemetry? If yes, are there clear instructions on how to airgap it'
Also I would want to check the laws regarding the paint on the cars so if it is possible to give it a dazzle or AI confusing pattern. I cannot shield it from ALPRs, but I want as little visiblility against other cameras as possible... Of course doing that pattern makes the car stick out.
Jyek@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 15d
I pulled the cloud modem out of my car. It drives just fine without a connection to the internet or cell towers.