But see, it's not fair if people just get what they need! You need to make sure people are paying for it!
We can make it part of the system that each person gets help according to their needs, but each person also gives help according to their abilities. Yes yes. This is now definitely capitalism because it's transactions.
This is now definitely capitalism because it’s transactions.
Capitalism has nothing to do with transactions. Capitalism would be if the truck was owed by Benny, who would not show up, not fill it up with gas, not repair it, but would still receive half of pizza and 2/3 of beer.
You are correct that I was not describing capitalism.
I was participating in the silly by creeping closer to full communism and still saying it's something else.
And I'm not sure why Benny would only get half and 2/3s respectively. They owned the truck, so they're the one that did the moving. The others are just employees.
It's not really capitalism without the involvement of capital, is it? It's more akin to a trade-and-barter-economy/society, where everyone involved should have a high level of faith in others
Sorry if it wasn't clear, but money != Capital, not necessarily. You can have money to exchange for goods, but as long as your money doesn't auto-accumulate via interest, dividends etc, you don't necessarily have capital. Of course this is mainly a discussion on definitions then
No, the truck is his capital. That's his means of production — presumably, not just of free pizzas in exchange for moving furniture, but even then, every dollar he saves by not having to pay for dinner could go towards paying off his car loan.
On top of that he's saving on taxes because no money was ever exchanged for this transaction. Everything about this scenario is 100% capitalist.
The crazy part is it doesn't matter who you voted for, everyone on both sides would generally love to help their neighbor and would offer a hand. It's just when people get involved in the macro sense that they get filled with hate and anger. Makes me sad. Let's just all move couches.
Conservatives are often nice to people they know. The in-group. The problem is when it's a scary other. So they'll let Jose couch surf for a week while he sorts out his housing situation, because he's a good guy down on his luck, but they'll rage against Those People getting anything.
That's my understanding too. It's like empathy just ends at one's own line of sight. If I can't see it or touch it, there may be something wrong with it. It's infuriating.
Can we do that without the latent ableism that comes along with it, like the idea that if you can't help people move couches then you don't deserve anyone else's help either?
This especially effects people with invisible disabilities, who are already viewed as lazy, but who also might be the most helpless when it comes to moving their own furniture.
I think it's kind of ablist to assume a disabled person has nothing of value to offer, like if they can't move a couch then they are excluded. "Moving a couch" could be anything, it could be filing taxes or cooking a meal. Disabled people are good at stuff too. I think it's really weird for you to make this assumption.
Honestly it's both. Plenty of people with disabilities have plenty to offer. A lot actually don't though, and they still deserve that helping hand.
A family aquatintance has some mental and physical disabilities. They're just not going to be able to help in any way that isn't superficial. And that's okay. Their worth isn't defined by their utility.
Attaching how worthwhile it is to help someone to their ability to provide a service inherently says the person who can't isn't worthy of help.
We should be good to people because it's the right thing to do, not out of the expectation of a future repayment. More pragmatically, we should help based on the assumption that the other person would, and that if everyone acted like that the world would be better.
I think the other person read a bit much into it, but their base point isn't wrong.
I find it wild that most people here can't see through their own assumptions. Like, everyone else needs to examine their own biases. Not them though, they could never be biased. It shows such a lack of self-awareness on their part.
My dad had a prosthetic leg, and he bristled at some of the polite or accepting ways that people would talk about disability in a way that stuck with me because he explained it. Basically a dislike of "handicapable" or the notion that you "make up for it" in other ways. To paraphrase: "getting my foot cut off in a car accident didn't come with some perk that balanced things out".
I think a lot of the pushback you got came not from a place of rejecting that they could have a bias, but from the topic being broached as a confrontation of bias instead of an explanation of ignorance.
People, like the poster above, who are being conscientious according to their understanding will get indignant or frustrated when that's met with an unmatched response.
Assuming positive intent colors implicit "positive abelism", or other "positive -isms" that I'm personally less knowledgeable about, as unfamiliarity or ignorance rather than callousness or rudeness.
In those cases, the person is very unlikely to disagree or pushback if informed about their blind spot. The key part in their head was "disabled people are just as important", sitting right next to "good people chip in and contribute". So they respond to "disabled people can't always contribute" with "disabled people are important!" phrased as "disabled people can contribute!”.
Addressing it as a bias against disabled people doesn't fit because that part is correct. Need to address it at where the problem is: a misconception about the relationship between human worth, labor and utility.
I agree. Even if the task at hand really is moving a couch, coordinatin, organising, etc. are crucial contributions that dont require physical strength or ableness to do.
Just because you can't lift the couch doesn't mean you can't help. Someone has to pick up the beer, someone has to drive the truck. Someone needs to hold the doors while they carry it in, someone needs to know a guy who can help, the list of things goes on for miles.
Okay, that's fine and all, but "brocialism" will never be enough because it depends so strongly on a person's personal connection. It's not "to each accord to their needs" it's "to each according to their connections."
If you don't see how that disproportionally benefits and privileges in-groups then I don't know how much clearer I can break it down for you. A socialist society needs mechanisms in place to take care of those who would be forgotten by "brocialism" alone.
Maybe the system works for autistic people who can grill, but what about autistic people who can spend two hours explaining the history of North Rhine-Westphalia or Star Trek lore or any other special interest? You think someone with a truck will view that as an equivalent exchange?
Mind you, I'm not saying their talents are worthless. I'm telling you my experience as a neurodivergent person that most people view these things as lacking value and will marginalize anyone whose contributions consist exclusively of talents that most people consider worthless.
Assuming every autistic person can grill or contribute something that neurotypical people value as having worth is wrong because it marginalizes those who fall outside of that limited group, and because it reinforces the system and the idea that people need to be able to contribute something deemed valuable before they deserve to receive help.
And if you can't see how that disadvantages the people whose disabilities are the most severe, then I don't know what will get through to you.
Show me one part of humanity's development that did not involve social connection. You, as a human being are part of an unbroken chain of social connections spanning back so far that there isn't even a word for how many generations it is.
Maybe the system works for autistic people who can grill, but what about autistic people who can spend two hours explaining the history of North Rhine-Westphalia or Star Trek lore or any other special interest? You think someone with a truck will view that as an equivalent exchange?
You're still focusing too much on the minutiae of the reference not the meaning behind it, its not about the grilling the same way it's not about the truck, the same way small talk isn't about the weather.
To use your own words
I don’t know how much clearer I can break it down for you
ITS ABOUT MAKING A CONNECTION WITH ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AND DISCOVERING THAT NOT EVERYONE IS A CUNT.
I have fully ND mates, who have special interests that they have built communities around. One of whom was genuinely incapable of spending time out in public without being in full body attack mode after less than an hour is now entirely able to spend an entire day out at a festival AND maintain enough social battery to continue spending time with friends well into the evening. Something they have fully admitted to me would not be possible five years ago.
the idea that people need to be able to contribute something deemed valuable before they deserve to receive help.
Some people enjoy conversation. Some people are bad at using maps. Some people need to be able to speak out their thoughts aloud to even begin to analyse them and require a rubberduck that can ask questions.
"Something deemed valuable" can have many meanings to many people, but you'll never find out what they deem valuable by mentally labelling them as a degenerate that should not be interacted with the second they say something you disagree with.
My partner has disabilities and so they do not help lift the sofa. But they are a lot better at driving a manual truck than I am, so with a few pillows and adaptations in the driver's cab that is what they do when someone needs a sofa moved. Some disabilities prevent you from driving the truck too, but it's important as a group of sofa movers to make sure that everyone has something they can fulfill, even if that means planning the move. That can be incredibly helpful.
Exactly. You don't, and you're unwilling to hear perspectives that conflict with your own, so you never will. That's only reinforcing the erasure of already-invisible marginalia. The whole point of what I'm saying.
It seems like you're saying that by not mentioning people with disabilities in every story they are inherently being ableist. Or is your point that the person in the screenshot should not have helped move the sofa?
I think we all understand you are angry and respect that (I hope).
But saying it's nice and good when people are helpful doesn't imply that peiple who can't help are not nice and good. There's some kind of logical fallacy in that interpretation of it.
It's not just about whether a person can help about and whether that makes them nice and good.
It's more about, there are people who get left out of society and they would struggle to find the help we need if we leave it entirely up to the good will of people helping their neighbors.
There needs to be more structured support, like taxpayer-funded programs designed to help everyone to receive the support they need, including (and especially) the people who are the most disadvantaged.
Helping your neighbor is good and shouldn't go away. But we shouldn't rely on that as a society to help the people who need it most. And we certainly shouldn't glorify a society that does depend on that, instead of funding structured social support programs that make a point not to leave anyone out who needs help.
Cool thing about being disabled is you become the one who knows the people with a truck and a couple 20-year old children. Or the person who cuts hair for free. Or the person whose cousin does pro bono legal work for certain requests.
In short, you become the key connector in that network: the Guy Who Knows A Guy.
It sounds like you're putting a lot of weight in your own experience and assuming every disabled person will have the same experience.
Maybe you or someone you know is disabled and is that connector who knows a guy. But projecting that and assuming every other disabled person will have that same advantage is a wild thing to do, and I'm surprised that more people don't see through that.
My wife has a physical disability, she is an "asker", as in knows she will need help from others and so will ask random people, and also connects a lot of people together.
Maybe not everyone becomes that, but it sort of forces you to.
Why is everyone relying so hard on using specific counterexamples as a counterargument?
Counterexamples only refute absolute statements. If I said "no one with a disability can find the help they need in this kind of system," then sure, listing a few people with disabilities who do find the help they need would be enough to refute that statement.
But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is "not everyone (including, but not limited to people with disabilities) can find the help they need in this kind of system."
It's a completely different statement, because it's not an absolute. I'm not saying that no exceptions exist. I'm saying that exceptions do exist to the opposite statement, i.e. "everyone (including people with disabilities) can find the help they beed in this kind of system." Which, by the way, is an absolute statement.
So in fact I'm the one arguing against an absolute, and people try refuting me as if I'm stating an absolute when I'm not.
And unless anyone wants to argue that every single person in this system is able to find the help they need when they need it, then there's really no way to argue against my point, because my entire point is simply that that's not true. There are people who get left out, and any attempt to claim otherwise is erasure.
You better come with some jokes then. When I'm moving some bulky furniture upstairs and really not having a good time, sometimes a well-timed joke is exactly what we need to drop it and injure ourselves.
Okay, while you're jerking off the dicks driving big-ass little-dick trucks, I guess I'll try being nicer to those assholes while they honk their horns at pedestrians, double-park or park on crosswalks, and all that other shit that they do and everyone knows they do because they're doing it in big-ass trucks and it's not subtle.
Especially the ones rolling coal and flying trump flags. Should I try to be less of a dick to them to? I don't want to be included in whatever they've got going on. I certainly would never ask one to help move furniture. Their trucks are only for show anyway...
Kevin and Tony would definitely move a sofa for a person with disabilities. No doubt in my mind. They'd still expect pizza and beer tho, that's non-negotiable.
Okay well what about when they ask that person later if they'll help move Tony's fridge? Like this un-negotiated yet obligatory repayment. If you say "sorry, I can't" then they'll immediately lose respect for you, and probably tell everyone they know not to help you in the future. Even if you explain that you have a condition that prevents you, if that condition isn't visible to them they'll think you're just selfish and making excuses.
Also, are you willing to guarantee that Kevin and Tony aren't racist or homophobic? Are you willing to guarantee they would help move a sofa for someone who's gay or black? This is about more than just disabilities.
This is about "good ole boy" culture and relying on the benevolence and altruism of people who likely as not only care about helping people they view as a part of their in-group. And if you think that's not a real problem in america, then you must not live here because it's literally all over the place here.
Maybe they'd judge you, maybe they wouldn't. No way of knowing. Sorry that you feel so mistreated by hypothetical strangers. I wasn't attempting to drum up any sort of trauma for you. I'm sending some lovingkindness out into the world for all living beings right now, and I hope you can get a little hit of it too. Be well.
That’s not really socialism, given that it is not universally distributed but depends on one’s social connections. A socialist system would have impersonal mechanisms for catching those who fall through the cracks due to not knowing enough people to ask for and repay favours. (And those people do exist: “everyone knows a guy with a truck” except perhaps for a socially isolated shut-in or someone who does not speak the language, or someone who does not fit in with the community in their truck catchment radius.)
Yeah, in this case "everyone" literally just means "everyone who's visible within my social radius."
It completely erases everyone else, like the types of people you mentioned. It's very in-group focused, and bears uncanny parallels to the fascist idea that outsiders don't matter.
I am also the guy with the truck. But I do not drive 5-speed manual very well. So the truck lives at the house of my friend who is good at driving manual. He's kind of my Tony, I guess. The truck is indeed a community resource of anyone we are decent friends with.
Ease the clutch out at the same rate you put on the gas. Just a nice smooth up and down with both feet at the same time, like you are pedaling a bike, but with 2 tons hammering around you.
It's amazing how many different species of Knowaguy there are. I recently was introduced to a friend's "Bridge Guy" - a dealer in surplus bridges who will cut you a suspiciously good deal if you seem cool. Not the most immediately useful, but like... Could be damned handy to have in my back pocket should the right circumstances arise.
Societies that run on neighbours, friends, acquaintances, and that guy over there helping each other out in exchange for sharing pizza and beer afterwards are wholesome societies.
I think what you originally said makes sense in the strictest sense. Technically, not favors. The payment was pizza.
In Frieren, the main hero would always charge a "fee" even to the poorest people who needed help. Often at the cost of totally worthless items because "now they don't owe me". The transaction is complete, no furthur obligation.
Even "token" fees are better than ambiguous favors imo. Thats where I usually charge the friend price of a meal for most of my services.
And societies ran on capital with different tiers of classes based solely on the situation a person is BORN into is certainly the more just and appropriate way to organize a society? It definitely couldn’t be one based on mutualism and equity, no sir.
Favours need to be paid back.
This story is about paying it forward.
The Truck guy receives no financial reimbursement for his time, fuel and wear-and-tear, but the helpers are not paying back someone for the help, they are paying forward.
Corruption is where someone is collecting financial gain without a commensurate amount of effort.
A contract “Man with a Van” who gets paid to move goods is more able to abuse their role for extortion or corruption than a loose social group of “Bloke with a Ute”.
The American lower-working class economy is predominantly favor and goodwill-based, yes. Pain in the ass sometimes but also more fun imo. Community is important to keep alive.
Not just American. It's poor people's economy everywhere. American working class has more in common with working class in every other nation than American wealth class. The real division in the world is class division, everything else is distraction.
This exactly. There's an inversion when having money is more convenient than having contacts and doing small favors, and that inversion turns people into lonely cunts.
Incredibly wealthy people also run their society based on favors and unspoken fees. The difference is, one of them could, under unusual but not impossible circumstances, help a friend and a guy move a fridge and share a pizza and beer. But nobody who's not part of the incredible-wealth society can participate in its favors. And we all pay the fees.
I don't see what about this that makes it a "working-class" thing? I thought it was common practice to help each other out in exchange for pizzas and beer in any part of society where people have friends? I see it primarily as an excuse to hang out while doing something together.
Whenever you can afford to pay to have a problem of yours solved, it's often the most convenient way of solving it.
Anyone who makes their living by working, either for salary or hourly rate, is working class. Let's just be on the same page about that.
A working class person basically survives by converting their time and energy to cash. So paying cash is also paying with your labour, indirectly and often inefficiently. It's always a matter of "is it worth it"? Hiring movers for moving your entire home may be worth it, just one piece of furniture often isn't.
A wealth-class person gets their income from what they own. Its "passive" from their point of view, the money just appears as profit or capital gains or whatever. It's still a limited resource, but often way more available. Any kind of favours you do or ask for at this point is purely for fun/social purposes since hiring someone to move that sofa, or even just buying and having a new one delivered is way more convenient and time-efficient, since your money is not literally your time.
Anyone who makes their living by working, either for salary or hourly rate, is working class. Let’s just be on the same page about that.
Aha! That's where you got me! I was thinking "working class" in the more classical sense, referring to typical lower-paying jobs. I work for a living, but I'm definitely closer to what is typically considered "middle-class" in the sense that I make enough money that I feel well-off, but not enough that I could buy a new sofa just because moving the old one is too much hassle.
Obligatory "Fuck the wealth-class". "Passive income through ownership" is a convoluted way of saying "parasitic".
Congratulations, you're part of the working class. Your wealth comes from work you do with head and hand. The epstein class want you to think of yourself as middle class, so you'll feel threatened by the working class. There is no middle class. They take, and we pay. That's what class is.
I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here, I still want to comment on
Middle class does not exist
I do think it's a reasonable term to separate those that actually make a decent salary, are self-employed, own their own company (at which they work) together with others, etc. from the more clearly exploited workers that have far too few rights and are not compensated fairly.
I have no problem with selling my labour for money as long as I'm fairly compensated for it. Historically, the working class has not been.
I have no problem with selling my labour for money as long as I’m fairly compensated for it.
If you are working for a salary, you are never fairly compensated. If you received the value you actually produced, your boss can't make a profit. Profit is only possible by a exploitation.
The intensity of said exploitation is a spectrum, there is a huge difference between having some savings and disposable income versus barely surviving. I also make a decently comfortable living as a software engineer but I'm still a crippling accident away from losing it all and depending on disability benefits.
Even if life is good for you at your income level, you're still getting scammed to a (much smaller) extent. And the Epstein class use the money they scam off you, to control society. Money has this mathematical effect where it wants to accumulate in one place. It's like a kind of economic gravity. Any inequality will magnify itself over time if it isn't carefully controlled by government.
Social democrats think good enough regulation can preserve that very-slightly-inequal system forever. But I say that kind of setup is inherently unstable. Capitalism will always trend towards inequality over time. Instead of trying to control money and make it go against its nature, we should abolish money. A gift economy would be better.
I have a friend who's done very well with the AI boom, he works for some startup, has for the past six or seven years. He moved into an apartment like 10 years ago, he was working for a pharma company, just building their servers I'll say, because I don't know what the fuck he does. When he moved into the apartment, he hit me up, I rounded up another friend or two, we took care of it.
He bought (had built) a new home about six or seven months ago. He did not call me to help him move. He's moved beyond that, because to him, he doesn't want to be involved. You don't call someone to help you move and then not take part. For him, it's a no-brainer to just pay to have it done. And that's fine, and I just kinda wanted to give an example of this divide.
This is a wild concept for other cultures. Like, in Germany people will help you move. Your friends that is. Maybe a coworker or neighbour - if you even know any neighbour at all. That is all but a given here as well. But some random guy? Nah...
Oh and you absolutely have to rent a truck. I don't know a single truck person. There is no such thing as having a truck, unless you need it for business. Long story short: I just paid a company >2k to move just one town over
This can absolutely also happen in a place like Germany. Yes, no one really has a truck for personal use (or rather a box truck), but you know a guy who knows a guy that has a truck for his business and doesn't need it on the weekend, et voila. Maybe it's not that extreme, but especially for 'poorer' working class people, helping out is still essential even in Germany.
Yeah, small town community always sounds warm and fuzzy until you end up on the outside.
A while back, I knew of a family that moved into a house in the center of a town near where I grew up. A couple and two kids. The town had a big clock with a bell that rang hourly. Even in the dead of night. Right across the street from their house.
The family asked the town if they could silence the chimes between sunset and sunrise so that they and their kids could sleep. The town said no, the chimes are a local tradition.
The family then brought up state noise ordinances that the town's clock was violating. The town still refused. So they petitioned the state, the state got involved, and made the town silence the clock at night. The locals threw a fit.
The family didn't last long in their new house after that. But they were at least lucky enough to have the means to pack up and move somewhere else.
The less lucky are stuck. They get to spend the rest of their lives as the local "problem". A skewed nail to be hammered down. I've known enough people where any utterance of their name is met with a cautionary "you shouldn't associate with them", even when it's been so long that no one can tell you why. But it's often the case that those are the people most worth knowing.
Thank you! So many people elsewhere in this comment section don't seem to understand this.
And yeah, it could be over something so benign as that, or even more benign. But too many people assume that if someone is being ostracized, then they must have done something to deserve it. That's not always the case though, especially in puritanical smalltown USA.
Some of these towns, if you're not being ostracized by most of the people there, then something must be wrong with you, because there are places where you'll be ostracized for not supporting maga or for believing in climate change or empathy.
This is why I'm saying we shouldn't romanticize that "smalltown vibe," because there absolutely is a dark side to it. But people are reacting with such hostility. Clearly they haven't lived in the kind of area I'm talking about...
That was the ancient economy, before money even existed. You gave stuff to people. Bread, pots, meat, build a cabin. They gave stuff back that you needed, roughtly about the same value, but never exactly the value. Everybody has to be a little in debt to anyone else. If you gave back exactly what it's worth, it means you don't want to deal with that person anymore.
Most of us are just regular, friendly people who are glad to help out if needed. There are pockets of shit people who thrive on hate, but that's true for any country.
That's the thing, the most vocal tend to be the worst type of people. Online that gives the impression that a lot of people are bad when in reality I think most people want to be good people.
Having been someone's Kevin and/or Tony in this country, they could be green and have antennae. They're a neighbor, they need a couch moved, and I happen to have nothing to do today. This is the code.
Americans are a very friendly people, all things considered. The whole smiling at everyone you see, helping out strangers for fun thing is not universal. Thus, this post.
My partner is from America, and visited Australia for two weeks to see Me. We spent two weeks going on dates together, visiting cool places like the museum, the zoo, a local pirate bar, an escape room. My partner says Australians are much friendlier than Americans and we smile more.
I could believe it. It's not that it's unique to America, or anything. But like I've read stories about Dutch people for instance thinking Americans on public transportation were simple, due to all the smiling and the like.
In central Europe it's just like "I know a guy with a trailer" or a hitch and you rent a trailer. Or as a last resort or maybe an urban thing, you hire a moving truck and still call upon your friends to load and unload and pay in beer and pizza/döner.
As an american, I think it's toxic positivity because it ignores all the invisible social rejects who live on the margins of society and don't have the type of community support that makes this possible.
The OOP happened to luck out and knew some nice people and also happened to be accepted by those people as someone who's worth helping.
The same Kevin might be a completely different person when he drives through a city and sees a homeless person struggling to move a tent with all his possessions...
Men doing something negative is readily called toxic masculinity. Men doing something positive however can't be non-toxic masculinity because women do something similar but different...
Is it really that hard for you to admit that masculinity can be associated with positive things?
Men are fine. Masculinity in 2026 as an ideology or a cultural institution is a problem.
Men exist in concerning numbers who submit to the manosphere logic, who follow the far-right influencers I've mentioned, who vote R because letting the libs win is effeminate. And curiously, conservative, tradwife-minded women don't like them much either.
Manhood as expressed in media isn't much better, with scriptwriters diegetically presuming the alpha male model is a valid theory. (It's been debunked even for wolves.)
There are plenty of men who do not submit to these notions, and generally they tend to not be concerned about expressing their manhood or being seen as inadequately masculine. They are more concerned about being adult or being functional than being manly.
Men are fine. Masculinity in 2026 as an ideology or a cultural institution is a problem.
Is this more or less stating "Men are fine as long as they aren't masculine?"
You're going to have to define what "man" "woman" "masculine" and "feminine" are in your mind then, because that statement doesn't logic with any of those definitions that I agree with; it's like saying "water is fine as long as it contains no H2O."
All the virtues associated with manhood in the 1970s and 1980s turned into general adulting in the 1990s and aughts.
In 2026, what it is to be a man is asserted by social media personalities like Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro, Joe Rogan, the Tate brothers. The conversation on masculinity is dominated by the manosphere on social media and far-right television.
Expressions of manhood are on full display when Josh Hokit disparages Michelle Obama, when Trump intervenes in the world cup to cancel a red card and lift the one game penalty on Folarin Balogun. Or when US Representative Max Miller doubles down on his innocence in a video making common DV gaslighting arguments in the face of credible abuse allegations, on the presumption that his MAGA base won't care and will still vote for him.
Masculinity in 2026 is demonstrated when you discharge your strength in malice or cruelty or bad taste to show the world you are beyond the reach of consequences, or do not care what consequences occurr.
But sure. I'm AMAB and have been criticized for half a century for being inadequately masculine. I've been repeatedly bullied and disregarded because I'm a wuss or a wimp. But I'm still game. I'm still open to an argument:
Tell me of a positive human trait that is particular to men that is not also expected of women by our society?
I'm not saying good men don't exist. To the contrary, there are plenty. But I am saying what makes them good is not a feature of their masculinity, rather it's a feature of being a functional adult in a (rapidly deteriorating) liberal society.
Tell me of a positive human trait that is particular to men that is not also expected of women by our society?
Tell me of a positive human trait that is particular to women that is not also expected of men by our society.
Ultimately there are things that men tend to do that are positive and there are things that men tend to do that are negative. This post is an example of the former.
In other words, you're over-complicating things because a handful of jackasses want to redefine what being a man is, and you declare that because they exist there cannot be anything (left) that is masculine. That makes no sense and is caving to their whims.
That handful of jackasses dominate social media in contrast to their opposition counterparts, and it's creating a public divide between the sexes, hence the 4B movement and the choose the bear thought experiment.
I don't know to what degree this factors into the observable trend that zoomers are having less sex and less romance than prior generations at their age. (I'm sure the affordability crisis is a major factor.) But in the US in 2026, our exemplars of masculinity are demonstrating they are entirely transactional and only understand the power of brute force.
And it's going to be a long, long time before stereotypes of masculinity change for the better.
Feel free to set a counterexample. Plenty of men do. And we need more of them. But when they do, they're not demonstrating what it is to be a man. They're demonstrating what it is to be a functional adult in a cooperative society.
I also think society gender roles should be abolished, and that every gender identity (including non-binary ones) should be respected.
You'll have no disagreement from me that there's far more profit - and a resulting niche of people capitalizing on that - in teaching kids how to be masculine in a toxic way.
My point is it simply doesn't follow that all forms of masculinity are toxic any more than all art is AI because AI art is on the massive rise.
I will grant you I'm referring to what popular culture teaches us masculinity looks like. I'm taking my cues from what social media is popular, what US cinema has to say about masculinity. But that's because it's also about the expectations of displays of manhood, what we are obligated to do if we're real men.
There's also this video (on YouTube) from J. Draper and PBS which asserts that there's been a masculinity crisis for about as long as there's been a moral panic about new fads corrupting our kids (id est, always), that there have always been pundits and editorial correspondents saying that men are becoming too effeminate.
One source I haven't yet been able to tap is what trans men have to say about masculinity, because to them social expression of their gender is super important. But I don't know any trans men well enough to stop and ask them.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted, you're right lol. My only sticking point is that your phrasing kind of implies masculinity being characterized by dominance is a more recent development. bell hooks had a whole book breaking this down in 2003, and there were mens rights movements (that develolved into the proto manosphere) in the 70s and 80s who noticed this and tried/failed to redefine masculinity. Early feminist works identified domination and "whatever a.woman isn't" as defining features from the jump. Nothing you're saying is new or controversial, and there's decades of rigorous, scholarly work validating it
In the 1970s and 1980s, there were traits that were positive traits characterized as masculine. Only with time as the workforce got integrated, and as women got more personal autonomy (such as property rights), we noticed women, too, could man up and take responsibility. In fact they had to.
Through my thirties, my model was Captain Jerry Lawson in Wargames, ([here] on YouTube) an air force missileer who was run through a surprise missile drill, and refused to turn the key and launch a nuclear strike against the USSR. The capacity to hold vast power and not use it (or to use it judiciously and proportionately) was highly prized during the cold war.
See also, The West Wings01e03, A Proportional Response (also featuring John Spencer!). Bartlett is emotionally caught up when an attack by Syria kills someone he knows personally, and his cabinet has to reign him in.
See also To Kill A Mockingbird, specifically when Atticus Finch has to put down a rabid dog at range with a rifle.
Women are also capable of holding responsibility and not using it, so I still hold the capacity as a virtue, it's just no longer a man thing.
And then in the Trump era, we're seeing an awful lot of men who have immense power and clearly should not be trusted with it. Trump's fire and fury speech regarding the conflict in North Korea was an early portent to the rest of us of his later decisions to misuse US military might.
Indeed, after Trump's first term, we learned that he had called to use nuclear weapons more than once, and his military cabinet deflected his orders every time.
During his second term, I don't know if those safeguards are still there, or if he's still as eager to use the US nuclear arsenal.
If you don't know a Kevin, you definitely know an Ashley. And Ashley knows everyone who has a grandma with a group of retired friends who are itching for something to do.
You engage in the economy of helping people to move stuff. One person has a dolly, another has a truck, they come, they move the thing, you pay in pizza and at least one IOU of "I'll be there for you next time".
When the time comes you are enlisted, you go, you help, you recieve pizza.
Fyi, if you are moving one piece of furniture, sure get the truck guy and a couple buddies. If you are moving ALL your stuff, hire movers. (Unless you and your buddies are in their 20s)
It starts with Dad moving you to and from dorm rooms. Then apartments.
When my wife and I moved to our house I hired movers. It was a lot easier and not terribly expensive.
When my wife moved her business to a new building, my mom told me my dad insisted on helping us move, so I didn't hire movers as I had planned. When we were moving the tons of furniture, cabinets, and massive boxes stuffed full of files, my dad mentioned that my mom told him I had asked him to help me move. I have never been able to determine why my mom manipulated us into nearly killing ourselves.
Now I'm the dad. I've moved kids to and from dorm rooms and apartments. I've rented trucks for huge moves. My daughter and I are moving a couch, a dresser, an end table and all her cooking utensils on Saturday.
Not only do I have a truck, I also have straps, furniture dollies, moving blankets, mattress bags, etc.
My most recent purchase was a shoulder dolly. If you haven't seen one, picture two harnesses with a wide strap running between them. Two people squat on either end of the item being moved with the wide strap running under it. You take up the slack in the strap, and just stand up to lift it off the ground. It's a game changer.
My friend is a ring leader for these types of guys. He knows like 15 guys with a truck and at least another 30 with arms. He’s able to get a lot of projects done around the neighborhood.
I genuinely don't understand why printers are so shit. Like we have a 3D printer that looks like a pile of bolts put together by a drunk person (which is was) that creates pretty much any object you tell it to with seemingly no trouble at all. And those are a relatively recent invention. Meanwhile, the 2D printer has decades of advanced technology behind it and looks like a sleek white sci-fi cube, it's only job is to put words on a fixed-size sheet of paper (the thing that the Gutenberg press was doing in the 1400s) and it fucks it up about 60% of the time.
I was always the guy with the truck. For a couple years I was the guy with the minivan with no back seats in lieu of a truck, but now I'm back to being the guy with the truck amongst my circles. I didn't know how much I liked being that guy until I wasn't.
My neighbor is the guy with the truck. He feels the same way you do, says he just can't imagine not being available to help folks out. He's helped me out. I help him out (not with a truck, of course). He has a truck because he is big, it's comfortable, and because he can help people move shit or get mulch or whatever. He lives for it.
I am the guy with a ute (Australian for truck) but I dont come with. You can borrow it for as long as you need, it comes with a full tank and it comes back with one.
Its a bit of a heap but it starts every time and runs all day. I cant justify the yearly expense to keep it around for the dozen or so times a year I need it. But my friends and neighbours get great value out of it so I do.
Been aware of this unwritten rule for a number of years. The people who ask me for help do not. They insult the tradition by trying to give me money...stunch refusal gets me strange looks but invites to weekend bbqs.
As a Japanese person, my first reaction was, "That sounds exhausting." I'm genuinely curious, though. Is this something most Americans enjoy, or is it one of those social expectations that not everyone is actually comfortable with?
This phenomenon is the same here in Canada so I will pitch in. It is not enjoyed. It is not hated. It merely is. When a neighbour needs help, you help them. Even if its the neighbour with the yappy dog. There is no emotion tied up in it one way or another. Its just the right thing to do.
I think that Kevin and Tony probably don't even think about this, they lived their entire live that way. They don't know any better.
Here in Germany, if you want to move a sofa, you have three options:
Rent a transporter (no one here has a truck), park it illegally in front of the house while onloading the sofa, transport the sofa, park the car again illegally while unloading it. If the police catches you or a neighbor files a complain, you may have to pay a fee.
File a form so that someone puts up traffic signs for that day that no one except you may park in front of the two houses. Costs around 90 € and takes 3 weeks. Rent car, proceed as usual. Someone will see that you park in a "no parking" zone and does not know that you requested that zone, so he will file a report. Therefore, later, fill some more forms to battle that claim.
Do 1) at night where no one sees you or cares.
(This is of course highly exaggerated. Parking is not such a problem in every city.)
That's interesting. I always thought Europe was more relaxed about things like that. In Japan, at least, you're generally allowed to stop temporarily while loading or unloading furniture, so this surprised me.
Parent comment was about Germany, so no not really. The Germans (including the whole DACH area) are as much fun as the Japanese. Although when it comes to car it's more or less free for all
That's true. Japanese residential streets really are that narrow, if not narrower. You could argue that's why parking enforcement is necessary, but if the police ticketed every car that stopped briefly to load or unload furniture, nothing would get done. Long-term parking is another matter, but a temporary stop like that usually isn't something people worry about getting fined for in Japan.
TBH: In most cases you simply park in plain daylight somewhere near your flat, chuck the sofa in the transporter and drive away. There is no risk of some parking officer catching you and even if, the fines are low.
Yeah, this is really normal. It's one of the rare things that I absolutely, genuinely like about my country. If someone says they need help, even a total stranger, you help them.
The good Americans are pretty free with their labor when it comes to their neighbors, and the definition of 'neighbor' is pretty loose. If I met you five minutes ago, you need help with something, and we live in the same city, you're my neighbor.
On the total stranger thing: last time I moved we got everything in except for a mattress. There were three of us and we couldn't get it up the stairs. Some random man was walking by and saw us, offered to help and then just hauled the mattress up the stairs by himself and was like "have a good one" and carried on with his day lol.
Definitely not something I've heard of. This is either very old school America (50-80s) or something done in very small towns where everyone knows one another.
That said, this is definiely something I know friends would do for each other. Truck or not. You have some boys over to help move some stuff around, you cook or grab food for them an pay the bill. But you gotta be pretty good friends for me to call you up like that (or vice versa).
For me too sometimes, but this is what it takes to build a community.
Your plans may suddenly take a turn, but in exchange, you get helping hands for whatever you need to do - and a sense that whatever happens, you know the folks
It feels like something that has been lost in today's society, and unfortunately, it seems difficult to regain it at this point. I don't know where this difference came from.
This is pretty much how it works in Canada too. It can be a bit of a pain (especially if someone is moving in winter) but it's just one of those camaraderie things you do. If you're gonna move you let your friend group know, and you can pretty much rely on about 60-75% of them showing up to help, and in return you feed and beer them. Then when someone else is moving you do the same for them.
If you have a good excuse you can sometimes skip one, but if you never show up (especially if other people have already helped you move) that's very bad. Nobody will say anything, but the group remembers.
It's one of those social expectations not everyone is comfortable with. I think it comes from a good place though. It's essentially community sourced mutual aid. For lack of, you know, easy access to aid from society as a whole.
If you empathize with having to move a heavy sofa up several flights of stairs with only two people, you help move a stranger's sofa. There's no enjoyment. It sucks for everyone. People get hurt and bump around and say, "sorry" and "ow" a lot. That's what the pizza/beer is for.
Even if you're moving it at 9:00 am, you crack a beer when you're done. It's more volunteer work than civic duty, but it feels more rewarding than a shift at the food bank.
Enjoyment is not in the act itself. Enjoyment comes from the appreciation of your fellow citizen who needed a thing moved that they were unable to move without help.... And pizza.
I don't find it uncomfortable. You're there to do a job, you do it, you get your pizza and the appreciation of your fellow human, you go home.
You're there for a purpose. People want you there for that purpose. You might not be good at it, but you're there and that's the important part. At the end of the day, the thing is done.
It's a social contract, and it's not exclusive to guys.
I agree that this story depicts one of the beautiful aspects of human nature. It also sheds light on what has been lost in the process of modernization.
However, when I actually try to imagine myself living in that society, I don’t feel like I could survive in it. I guess it's a typical Japanese response.
Reading the comments made me realize a couple of things.
When I said it sounded "exhausting," I wasn't really talking about the physical work of moving the sofa. I meant the effort of maintaining the relationships behind it. In many cases, the pizza isn't really the reward. From a Japanese perspective, sharing a meal with someone can actually feel like the more demanding part unless you're very close. Sometimes, even with close friends, it can feel like a bit of an obligation.
I think we have a different idea of what "neighbors" and "friends" mean. For many people in Japan today, neighbors are essentially strangers. There are probably still rural communities where neighbors help each other, but that's much less common in cities. As for friends, we generally don't rely on them for everyday necessities. Of course we're happy to help our friends when they need it, but friendship itself isn't expected to function as part of the infrastructure of daily life. We don't stay friends because we need each other. We stay friends because we enjoy each other's company.
I have a truck. I know at least two other people with trucks. Once the pizza is offered, and maybe some beers if it's a big job, we're there. It's the truck code.
I own a truck. I live in the states. In a state more urban than rural - so less trucks comparatively speaking.
BY FAR - the best part about owning a truck, is being asked to help someone move something big. This couldn’t be more true. Except sometimes the payment can be, or include a single cold beer. My name isn’t Kevin though.
My cousin has become Kevin. She got a big old van for her 2 kids. It has split duty now. Although she doesn't do any of the moving and the price is a full tank of gas.
With that beautiful writing style? This prose would be lost on film.
Honestly, I thought this was an excerpt from some modern classic usamerican novel. I was fully expecting to find this comment section full of references and people talking about the book.
In Australia the price is beer. If it's a small job, one or two beers, either while doing the job or at the end, big job means a whole case of beer per person. Everyone would think there was something wrong with you if you provided only pizza.
Same way works in eastern Europe.
And especially if you give away furniture to get new one,you can ask person who gets your old stuff to help you to bring a new stuff.
As a female, this always worked for me.
Only once I paid something like 50 eur for sofa delivery, because it was during week that I had to pick up from private on certain time and friends were working.
Yeah. You know how I got a guy for everything? Well, they're all in New York. My suit guy, my shoe guy, my ticket guy, my club guy. And if I don't have a guy for something, then I have a guy guy to get me a guy. And oddly enough, his name is Guy.
This is a beautiful piece of art, I like how not having a truck didn't make you useless.
I'm not American we're not big on trucks here, unless you're an independent contractor they do have trucks even though they don't really fit our country haha.
But if someone needs help to move something and you can't supply the car, you're instantly considered useless and never involved in anything from that moment on. Doesn't even matter if you can move the whole couch by yourself.
You're excluded. It's a peaceful life, but it gets lonely at times.
It is good when people help each other. It warms a truck when a community sticks by each other.
Shit like this is why I love the punk scene. The punk scene is like the idealized small American town, for you may one day be asked to help someone you barely know and do it without a second thought. Why wouldn't you help someone who needs it. You know damn well that when the time comes and you too need help, it will be found.
I have pulled on my network of comrades to make sure someone got a phone. This was done for the price of food and fellowship.
Can we not romanticize american truck culture? Those people's heads are already swollen enough without telling them everyone around them relies on their condescension to help.
Sure, there might be a few decent people out there who have trucks, but they're not the majority of truck owners. They're also more likely to help their friends and family, maybe a friend of a friend, but hardly a stranger.
And if you're viewed as an outsider or unliked? Forget it, you're SOL.
Also, this expectation that everyone "just knows", without being told, is unrealistic. It is real, in that people do expect that. And perhaps most normies do "just know." But the social rejects, the neurodivergents, the new neighbors who just moved to this state, etc.? Life is made far more challenging to these people as a direct result of that expectation that everyone should "just know" without being told.
When I moved states, we introduced ourselves to the neighbor and they offered to mow our lawn cause we didn’t have a mower yet. Gave em a bottle of wine, chill neighbors all the way until they moved out.
Most people are decent, even more than the 80/20 rule.
You're really only acknowledging that you're part of an in-group that can move to a new neighborhood and be immediately accepted. Not everyone enjoys that privilege, and you pretending that your experience disproves that only highlights the erasure.
It doesn’t disprove what you’re saying. I’m saying that coming into a shitpost community where the vibe is supposed to be fun and communicating negatively might be a symptom of not being able to communicate positively irl.
It can be hard and I’m sorry if it is for you, but what do you expect from people? Good vibes are contagious
"Good vibes" and toxic positivity are tools of fascism. I can't talk about climate change around people cause they'd think I'm being a debby-downer.
Same thing with wealth disparity, poverty, starvation, disability, disease, conflict, displacements, etc. Can't talk about these issues, serious problems in the world, cause everyone's like "dude, good vibes only." Can't talk about corruption and fascism itself because people don't want that "negativity."
Maybe I'm cynical, but it's not without good reason. Maybe if the world held space for more cynicism then we could actually start working on some of the problems we face. But no. Can't have that. Good vibes, dude.
If I need to keep my mouth shut about all the bad things going on in the world in order to be accepted by others, then I'd honestly rather be an outcast...
You don't have to keep your mouth shut about the bad things going on in the world to be nice to people.
The same way an ongoing climate collapse, the rise of real fascism in america (not just 'being friendly' to people as you say) multiple wars and multiple capital G genocides does not mean you've got to be shitty to everyone around you just because they're not perfectly aligned with the way you speak.
Maybe try to take a minute and instead of reading everything in bad faith by instantly thinking the worst of someone who you know nothing about based purely on an internet comment, use the phrase "Dont make perfect the enemy of good."
If you want to stay a self imposed outast, that's fine too. But remember nobody is making it out alive if everyone tries to make it alone.
I didn't say "just being friendly" makes a person a fascist. What I'm saying is that even fascists can "just be friendly" to the people they accept, and they often do. This is part of what allows fascism to perpetuate.
Someone could be casually sexist or viciously racist, but if they're nice enough to the people in their community, people will say "he's just a great guy," because he's nice to the people who they think matter. They have a word for it. They call them "good ole boys."
I'm telling you my personal experience from living among these people and yet everyone seems to be in denial that this could be the case. But I bet a large proportion of them know an aunt or an uncle or a family friend who's a narcissist or a fascist, but other people don't see through that disguise because they're nice to the ones who "matter." I bet most people here have some experience of not being allowed to call those people out because their friends and family will come to the person's defense and dismiss any criticism.
I'm telling you this happens on a larger scale, and the glorification of these "Kevins" is inextricably tied to it. Maybe not every Kevin with a truck is like that, but I'm telling you a lot of them are.
Also, on a more personal note:
If you want to stay a self imposed outcast
Fuck you for implying this is some sort of choice I'm making. I've been coping with ostracization and rejection my whole life, and you want to assume I'm doing it to myself for some inexplicable reason?
Im saying that you're making a lot of assumptions about people that are harming your ability to connect and learn the truth about them by jumping straight to "You're a fascist/ableist/[insert a label that allows you to maintain your supposed moral high ground by not engaging in converssation.]"
Your attitude of assuming fascism based on one drop of ignorance, either through their poor upbringing, susceptibility/exposure to propaganda or through, in this post for example, their choice to drive a truck, is part of what's causing your social life harm.
Now, to clarify; I am in no way suggesting that you need to make nice with actual fascists. I'm saying you should treat people with differing opinions like human fucking beings, because judging people based on your own assumptions about the miniscule amounts of information you can garner by a short interaction IS some fascist shit.
I, to suffer from being a neurodivergent and more often than not, being an antisocial person, but what I do is actually talk to people like they're actual people, instead of painting then with a wide brush by labelling them.
I have genuinely changed someone's mind on what's going on in Gaza by actually talking to them about it, instead of shutting down any form of communication and cutting them out, because I KNEW they weren't actually a racist, but instead were a product of the absolutely monumental propaganda campaign that is modern mass media and social media manipulation.
If people can only discuss systemic issues in therapy, then we're all fucked.
Do you say the same thing to women or people of color when they talk about sexism or racism? Gay or trans people when they talk about homophobia or transphobia?
Thing is, like you say, they're willing to help a friend of a friend, but frankly the bar for a friend is pretty low for a lot of people. As someone who's also neurodivergent and has had approximately three friends on average for most of my life, but recently moved to America and so had a full reset, I've been reminded that the majority of people like to think they're good people, even if they have questionable beliefs or cut you off in traffic or whatever, and thay extends to helping out people that they know.
Given I've been in the country a month, have autism, and live out of the city, I'm probably as in the group you describe as you can get, but I'm still fairly confident if I needed a neighbor to take me to hospital, or someone to help me move a couch, or whatever else, I could find them even through work or the neighborhood pretty quickly, as it just takes one connection to flip a switch in people's brains from "fuck that guy" to "they're in my tribe, I'll help them"
as it just takes one connection to flip a switch in people's brains from "fuck that guy" to "they're in my tribe, I'll help them
That's the thing, not everybody has that connection, and the people who lack it tend to be invisible in these kinds of situations, and there's always a lot of overt hostility directed towards those people whenever they point out that they don't have this thing that everyone else seems to be pretending that everyone has, which is community support.
It's great that you feel like you connect and have the support you need, but that doesn't justify the erasure of people who don't have that.
Yeah, I completely agree, but it also doesn't mean that the people who don't have that connection to you suddenly aren't willing to help their community, it just means that you have trouble integrating into communities, which is very valid and I can completely relate and understand, as that's kind of how being neurodivergent works.
As much as it sucks to hear, it's absolutely an "it's not them, it's you" situation, and I've been in the same position, and still do get in the same position, where I'm feeling out of place, unsure what to do and unwelcome, and very sensitive to confirmations of that, which is part of at least my experience of being autistic, but I've learnt that a lot of the times you don't actually have to pick up on social cues or whatever to make connections, as most people aren't even that invested anyway, and to most people talking to someone, even if they're weird, is better than talking to nobody. You may say "but everyone's already got friends they're always with" but even that's just an autistic lens over it, as you're just noticing when other people are having conversations but not you. And it doesn't have to be everyone. Like you said yourself, being a friend of a friend goes a long way, so if you just have a few connections with people who are friendlier or more similar to you, then that just gets you into circles. You won't exactly be neurotypical all of a sudden, but it definitely helps with feeling less different or isolated.
I do have trouble integrating into communities, that's the whole point. That people like me experience erasure. Even now, as I point out that people like me exist, most replies I'm getting have been combative in trying to double down on that erasure.
Like, can we not just acknowledge that there are people who slip through the cracks of society and as a result face challenges that most people never even have to think about or consider? Things that most people view as so easy and simple, that suddenly aren't so easy and simple when you have no friends or community.
But no, people don't like that reminder, so they're hostile towards it, which only reinforces the marginalization and erasure of people like me...
I think it's harsh on to call it erasure, but completely understand that in effect it's the same thing, because to me it seems people are hostile because what you're saying doesn't match their lived experiences, and so they're saying "that's not how it is" because they believe that you're pre-judging situations based on how you think people will react to neurodivergent people, when that's not the case at all. I like to think it comes from a place of good intentions, but yeah in reality it's no different to saying "just cheer up" to a depressed person, when it's really not that easy or how it works. The most important thing is that as irritating as it is, harboring resentment over this kind of thing helps nobody, and the best thing you can do is accept that they're trying (badly) to help, and that they just don't fully understand what the issue is.
Maybe it's not erasure, just passively enforcing the invisibility that people on the margins of society already have to deal with, and then being actively hostile towards anyone who brings it up, because it conflicts with most people's worldview that those invisible, marginalized people don't actually exist or have to cope with these systemic problems. I guess that's different from erasure, somehow.
I'm not pre-judging situations based on assumptions, I'm sharing my lived experience as a neurodivergent person who's always struggled to fit in and find acceptance. And if the hostility I've received in these comments is any indicator, then I have a good fucking point.
It's the normies who are pre-judging the situation based on what they view as "normal" and their disbelief that other people could exist outside of their worldview and need to cope every day with problems that "normal" people don't experience and are blind to. It's like a white person who believes racism doesn't exist. Neurotypicals believing ableism doesn't exist. It's the same fucking shit.
Yeah fuck Americans! I hate all of them tbh, even the supposed “good” ones. Every single one is a pig and deserves to die. They should really learn to be more tolerant and not to hate people based on one characteristic that they think tells me everything they need to know about a person
Dude, I'm an american myself, and having grown up surrounded by americans I think I can say that it's not always sunshine and rainbows like it's depicted in the post.
The people around me who drive trucks are the biggest assholes for miles. Rolling coal, denying climate change, flying trump flags, shining high beams in your rearview mirror. Pretending this isn't a real pattern and a serious issue isn't going to get you anywhere.
Sure, there are exceptions. Some people who drive trucks are nice people. They usually drive smaller, older, more beat-up and well-used trucks. But then again, lots of assholes drive those too. As for the big, shiny new trucks that never leave the pavement, there's a reason people say they're compensating for something. They're more likely to run over a cyclist than they are to help you move a couch.
The first is an oversized showpiece that's sparkling clean, has brand new tires, and not a single scratch. You need a stepladder to get in to drive, and it has never seen a day of work in its life. The driver is, invariably, a selfish jerk who wants the working-class status of having a truck, but no inclination to use it for its given purpose. They need a little sedan, but they want to take up space and feel important. This is what is known as a 'pavement princess'. This is a bad truck.
The second can be any year, but is usually a little on the old side. The owner has had their hands in every part of the engine, or is on a first-name basis with their mechanic. It is covered in well-earned scars, and the owner is a person like Kevin. This is a good truck.
351 Comments
dharmacurious@slrpnk.net · 266 pts · 32d
I am the guy with the truck.
The truck is proof that Americans can and will accept socialism.
It's brocialism.
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world · 113 pts · 32d
A.k.a. community
SkyezOpen@lemmy.world · 61 pts · 32d
"What if we had a system where people could get the assistance they need. We could call it... Communityism.
ricecake@sh.itjust.works · 24 pts · 32d
But see, it's not fair if people just get what they need! You need to make sure people are paying for it!
We can make it part of the system that each person gets help according to their needs, but each person also gives help according to their abilities. Yes yes. This is now definitely capitalism because it's transactions.
ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 32d
Capitalism has nothing to do with transactions. Capitalism would be if the truck was owed by Benny, who would not show up, not fill it up with gas, not repair it, but would still receive half of pizza and 2/3 of beer.
ricecake@sh.itjust.works · 11 pts · 32d
You are correct that I was not describing capitalism.
I was participating in the silly by creeping closer to full communism and still saying it's something else.
And I'm not sure why Benny would only get half and 2/3s respectively. They owned the truck, so they're the one that did the moving. The others are just employees.
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 7 pts · 32d
I'm pretty sure they were referring to From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs which most definitely is not capitalism lol, it's a joke
ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip · -2 pts · 32d
I get the rest of the comment dude, its the last sentence that is problematic.
tutter@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 10 pts · 32d
the last sentence is a joke... because what is being described is socialism. How is that problematic? lol wat?
divingdonkey@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 32d
It's not really capitalism without the involvement of capital, is it? It's more akin to a trade-and-barter-economy/society, where everyone involved should have a high level of faith in others
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 7 pts · 32d
I'm pretty sure they were referring to From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs which most definitely is not capitalism lol, it's a joke
divingdonkey@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 32d
TIL, thx
MacNCheezus@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 32d
How do you think Kevin paid for the truck? With pizzas?
divingdonkey@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 32d
Sorry if it wasn't clear, but money != Capital, not necessarily. You can have money to exchange for goods, but as long as your money doesn't auto-accumulate via interest, dividends etc, you don't necessarily have capital. Of course this is mainly a discussion on definitions then
MacNCheezus@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 31d
No, the truck is his capital. That's his means of production — presumably, not just of free pizzas in exchange for moving furniture, but even then, every dollar he saves by not having to pay for dinner could go towards paying off his car loan.
On top of that he's saving on taxes because no money was ever exchanged for this transaction. Everything about this scenario is 100% capitalist.
matlag@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 31d
Is it not what anarchy is really about? Low-level self organization.
Dozzi92@lemmy.world · 68 pts · 32d
The crazy part is it doesn't matter who you voted for, everyone on both sides would generally love to help their neighbor and would offer a hand. It's just when people get involved in the macro sense that they get filled with hate and anger. Makes me sad. Let's just all move couches.
jtrek@startrek.website · 55 pts · 32d
Conservatives are often nice to people they know. The in-group. The problem is when it's a scary other. So they'll let Jose couch surf for a week while he sorts out his housing situation, because he's a good guy down on his luck, but they'll rage against Those People getting anything.
dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world · 35 pts · 32d
That's my understanding too. It's like empathy just ends at one's own line of sight. If I can't see it or touch it, there may be something wrong with it. It's infuriating.
Rinox@feddit.it · 13 pts · 32d
Yeah, but he's different, he's not like the others that you see on the news
Zannsolo@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 32d
My FIL literally helped an undocumented Mexican who worked for him become a citizen, but is anti immigration.
FoxtrotDeltaTango@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 32d
Because they are chudservatives , they are only nice to people they know and like
They are hateful to people they don’t know and don’t like, people who don’t have the same opinions, and people who don’t hold the same beliefs
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -2 pts · 32d
Can we do that without the latent ableism that comes along with it, like the idea that if you can't help people move couches then you don't deserve anyone else's help either?
This especially effects people with invisible disabilities, who are already viewed as lazy, but who also might be the most helpless when it comes to moving their own furniture.
Boost@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 32d
I think it's kind of ablist to assume a disabled person has nothing of value to offer, like if they can't move a couch then they are excluded. "Moving a couch" could be anything, it could be filing taxes or cooking a meal. Disabled people are good at stuff too. I think it's really weird for you to make this assumption.
ricecake@sh.itjust.works · 13 pts · 32d
Honestly it's both. Plenty of people with disabilities have plenty to offer. A lot actually don't though, and they still deserve that helping hand.
A family aquatintance has some mental and physical disabilities. They're just not going to be able to help in any way that isn't superficial. And that's okay. Their worth isn't defined by their utility.
Attaching how worthwhile it is to help someone to their ability to provide a service inherently says the person who can't isn't worthy of help.
We should be good to people because it's the right thing to do, not out of the expectation of a future repayment. More pragmatically, we should help based on the assumption that the other person would, and that if everyone acted like that the world would be better.
I think the other person read a bit much into it, but their base point isn't wrong.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 32d
Thank you! You phrased it better than I could.
I find it wild that most people here can't see through their own assumptions. Like, everyone else needs to examine their own biases. Not them though, they could never be biased. It shows such a lack of self-awareness on their part.
ricecake@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 32d
My dad had a prosthetic leg, and he bristled at some of the polite or accepting ways that people would talk about disability in a way that stuck with me because he explained it. Basically a dislike of "handicapable" or the notion that you "make up for it" in other ways. To paraphrase: "getting my foot cut off in a car accident didn't come with some perk that balanced things out".
I think a lot of the pushback you got came not from a place of rejecting that they could have a bias, but from the topic being broached as a confrontation of bias instead of an explanation of ignorance.
People, like the poster above, who are being conscientious according to their understanding will get indignant or frustrated when that's met with an unmatched response.
Assuming positive intent colors implicit "positive abelism", or other "positive -isms" that I'm personally less knowledgeable about, as unfamiliarity or ignorance rather than callousness or rudeness.
In those cases, the person is very unlikely to disagree or pushback if informed about their blind spot. The key part in their head was "disabled people are just as important", sitting right next to "good people chip in and contribute". So they respond to "disabled people can't always contribute" with "disabled people are important!" phrased as "disabled people can contribute!”.
Addressing it as a bias against disabled people doesn't fit because that part is correct. Need to address it at where the problem is: a misconception about the relationship between human worth, labor and utility.
axx@slrpnk.net · 3 pts · 32d
I agree. Even if the task at hand really is moving a couch, coordinatin, organising, etc. are crucial contributions that dont require physical strength or ableness to do.
Postmortal_Pop@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 30d
Just because you can't lift the couch doesn't mean you can't help. Someone has to pick up the beer, someone has to drive the truck. Someone needs to hold the doors while they carry it in, someone needs to know a guy who can help, the list of things goes on for miles.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -6 pts · 32d
What I think is ableist is that you would try to pretend that disabled people don't get excluded due to society devaluing the things they can offer.
It's also ableist for you to suggest that a disabled person should be expected to file someone else's taxes if they need help moving furniture.
You just gave a master class in missing the point.
NihilsineNefas@slrpnk.net · 8 pts · 32d
The same way it isn't about the couch, it isn't about the taxes
To each according to their means, to each according to their needs was
Or in brocialism terms "Autism be damned my boy can work a grill"
Every metaphor breaks down if you read it at face value
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -2 pts · 32d
Okay, that's fine and all, but "brocialism" will never be enough because it depends so strongly on a person's personal connection. It's not "to each accord to their needs" it's "to each according to their connections."
If you don't see how that disproportionally benefits and privileges in-groups then I don't know how much clearer I can break it down for you. A socialist society needs mechanisms in place to take care of those who would be forgotten by "brocialism" alone.
Maybe the system works for autistic people who can grill, but what about autistic people who can spend two hours explaining the history of North Rhine-Westphalia or Star Trek lore or any other special interest? You think someone with a truck will view that as an equivalent exchange?
Mind you, I'm not saying their talents are worthless. I'm telling you my experience as a neurodivergent person that most people view these things as lacking value and will marginalize anyone whose contributions consist exclusively of talents that most people consider worthless.
Assuming every autistic person can grill or contribute something that neurotypical people value as having worth is wrong because it marginalizes those who fall outside of that limited group, and because it reinforces the system and the idea that people need to be able to contribute something deemed valuable before they deserve to receive help.
And if you can't see how that disadvantages the people whose disabilities are the most severe, then I don't know what will get through to you.
NihilsineNefas@slrpnk.net · 4 pts · 32d
Show me one part of humanity's development that did not involve social connection. You, as a human being are part of an unbroken chain of social connections spanning back so far that there isn't even a word for how many generations it is.
You're still focusing too much on the minutiae of the reference not the meaning behind it, its not about the grilling the same way it's not about the truck, the same way small talk isn't about the weather.
To use your own words
ITS ABOUT MAKING A CONNECTION WITH ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AND DISCOVERING THAT NOT EVERYONE IS A CUNT.
I have fully ND mates, who have special interests that they have built communities around. One of whom was genuinely incapable of spending time out in public without being in full body attack mode after less than an hour is now entirely able to spend an entire day out at a festival AND maintain enough social battery to continue spending time with friends well into the evening. Something they have fully admitted to me would not be possible five years ago.
Some people enjoy conversation. Some people are bad at using maps. Some people need to be able to speak out their thoughts aloud to even begin to analyse them and require a rubberduck that can ask questions.
"Something deemed valuable" can have many meanings to many people, but you'll never find out what they deem valuable by mentally labelling them as a degenerate that should not be interacted with the second they say something you disagree with.
infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net · 8 pts · 32d
My partner has disabilities and so they do not help lift the sofa. But they are a lot better at driving a manual truck than I am, so with a few pillows and adaptations in the driver's cab that is what they do when someone needs a sofa moved. Some disabilities prevent you from driving the truck too, but it's important as a group of sofa movers to make sure that everyone has something they can fulfill, even if that means planning the move. That can be incredibly helpful.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -8 pts · 32d
Anecdotes and exceptions don't justify the erasure of marginalia.
Like, why don't all blind people just become famous musicians so that they can be rich? Ray Charles did it.
No one in their right mind would think that means blind people don't require assistance/accomodations.
Your partner has disabilities but can drive a stick shift? Great. I guess the rest of us disabled people just need to bootstrap a little harder?
protist@retrofed.com · 7 pts · 32d
I don't think we understand your point or how it relates to this post
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -4 pts · 32d
Exactly. You don't, and you're unwilling to hear perspectives that conflict with your own, so you never will. That's only reinforcing the erasure of already-invisible marginalia. The whole point of what I'm saying.
protist@retrofed.com · 5 pts · 31d
It seems like you're saying that by not mentioning people with disabilities in every story they are inherently being ableist. Or is your point that the person in the screenshot should not have helped move the sofa?
axx@slrpnk.net · 6 pts · 31d
I think we all understand you are angry and respect that (I hope).
But saying it's nice and good when people are helpful doesn't imply that peiple who can't help are not nice and good. There's some kind of logical fallacy in that interpretation of it.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 0 pts · 31d
It's not just about whether a person can help about and whether that makes them nice and good.
It's more about, there are people who get left out of society and they would struggle to find the help we need if we leave it entirely up to the good will of people helping their neighbors.
There needs to be more structured support, like taxpayer-funded programs designed to help everyone to receive the support they need, including (and especially) the people who are the most disadvantaged.
Helping your neighbor is good and shouldn't go away. But we shouldn't rely on that as a society to help the people who need it most. And we certainly shouldn't glorify a society that does depend on that, instead of funding structured social support programs that make a point not to leave anyone out who needs help.
GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 32d
Cool thing about being disabled is you become the one who knows the people with a truck and a couple 20-year old children. Or the person who cuts hair for free. Or the person whose cousin does pro bono legal work for certain requests.
In short, you become the key connector in that network: the Guy Who Knows A Guy.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -4 pts · 32d
It sounds like you're putting a lot of weight in your own experience and assuming every disabled person will have the same experience.
Maybe you or someone you know is disabled and is that connector who knows a guy. But projecting that and assuming every other disabled person will have that same advantage is a wild thing to do, and I'm surprised that more people don't see through that.
TessaRekt@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 32d
It's less an advantage and more a necessity. You either become the person who knows people who can do things or certain things don't get done.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 0 pts · 32d
Yes, you're right about that. And that's precisely why people who can't form those connections are at such a disadvantage.
BCsven@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 31d
My wife has a physical disability, she is an "asker", as in knows she will need help from others and so will ask random people, and also connects a lot of people together. Maybe not everyone becomes that, but it sort of forces you to.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 30d
Why is everyone relying so hard on using specific counterexamples as a counterargument?
Counterexamples only refute absolute statements. If I said "no one with a disability can find the help they need in this kind of system," then sure, listing a few people with disabilities who do find the help they need would be enough to refute that statement.
But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is "not everyone (including, but not limited to people with disabilities) can find the help they need in this kind of system."
It's a completely different statement, because it's not an absolute. I'm not saying that no exceptions exist. I'm saying that exceptions do exist to the opposite statement, i.e. "everyone (including people with disabilities) can find the help they beed in this kind of system." Which, by the way, is an absolute statement.
So in fact I'm the one arguing against an absolute, and people try refuting me as if I'm stating an absolute when I'm not.
And unless anyone wants to argue that every single person in this system is able to find the help they need when they need it, then there's really no way to argue against my point, because my entire point is simply that that's not true. There are people who get left out, and any attempt to claim otherwise is erasure.
Dozzi92@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 32d
You better come with some jokes then. When I'm moving some bulky furniture upstairs and really not having a good time, sometimes a well-timed joke is exactly what we need to drop it and injure ourselves.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -7 pts · 32d
Was this supposed to be an attempt at a joke?
OryxAndCake@slrpnk.net · 10 pts · 32d
If you want to be included by people, try to be less of a dick.
This isn't me talking about the wider disabled community, of which I am part of, when I say this btw, this is me talking to you.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -9 pts · 32d
Okay, while you're jerking off the dicks driving big-ass little-dick trucks, I guess I'll try being nicer to those assholes while they honk their horns at pedestrians, double-park or park on crosswalks, and all that other shit that they do and everyone knows they do because they're doing it in big-ass trucks and it's not subtle.
Especially the ones rolling coal and flying trump flags. Should I try to be less of a dick to them to? I don't want to be included in whatever they've got going on. I certainly would never ask one to help move furniture. Their trucks are only for show anyway...
OryxAndCake@slrpnk.net · 11 pts · 32d
Are you in a lot of pain or in withdrawel or something? I'm struggling to understand where all this self victimising vitriol is coming from otherwise.
Yes, being disabled sucks, yes most people also suck, and everything is also fucking awful everywhere most of the time, and that sucks too.
But this is a comment section under a lighthearted post about moving furniture, so there's obviously something else going on that has you so upset.
OryxAndCake@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 32d
[Deleted duplicate]
FudgyMcTubbs@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 31d
Kevin and Tony would definitely move a sofa for a person with disabilities. No doubt in my mind. They'd still expect pizza and beer tho, that's non-negotiable.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -7 pts · 31d
Okay well what about when they ask that person later if they'll help move Tony's fridge? Like this un-negotiated yet obligatory repayment. If you say "sorry, I can't" then they'll immediately lose respect for you, and probably tell everyone they know not to help you in the future. Even if you explain that you have a condition that prevents you, if that condition isn't visible to them they'll think you're just selfish and making excuses.
Also, are you willing to guarantee that Kevin and Tony aren't racist or homophobic? Are you willing to guarantee they would help move a sofa for someone who's gay or black? This is about more than just disabilities.
This is about "good ole boy" culture and relying on the benevolence and altruism of people who likely as not only care about helping people they view as a part of their in-group. And if you think that's not a real problem in america, then you must not live here because it's literally all over the place here.
FudgyMcTubbs@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 31d
Maybe they'd judge you, maybe they wouldn't. No way of knowing. Sorry that you feel so mistreated by hypothetical strangers. I wasn't attempting to drum up any sort of trauma for you. I'm sending some lovingkindness out into the world for all living beings right now, and I hope you can get a little hit of it too. Be well.
VitoRobles@lemmy.today · 22 pts · 32d
We do socialism all the time.
Neighbors bring each other gifts. Friends feed one another. Someone is struggling and we give them what they need, no questions asked.
AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space · 19 pts · 32d
That’s not really socialism, given that it is not universally distributed but depends on one’s social connections. A socialist system would have impersonal mechanisms for catching those who fall through the cracks due to not knowing enough people to ask for and repay favours. (And those people do exist: “everyone knows a guy with a truck” except perhaps for a socially isolated shut-in or someone who does not speak the language, or someone who does not fit in with the community in their truck catchment radius.)
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -4 pts · 32d
Yeah, in this case "everyone" literally just means "everyone who's visible within my social radius."
It completely erases everyone else, like the types of people you mentioned. It's very in-group focused, and bears uncanny parallels to the fascist idea that outsiders don't matter.
MacNCheezus@lemmy.today · 0 pts · 32d
infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net · 11 pts · 32d
I am also the guy with the truck. But I do not drive 5-speed manual very well. So the truck lives at the house of my friend who is good at driving manual. He's kind of my Tony, I guess. The truck is indeed a community resource of anyone we are decent friends with.
rainwall@piefed.social · 2 pts · 32d
Ease the clutch out at the same rate you put on the gas. Just a nice smooth up and down with both feet at the same time, like you are pedaling a bike, but with 2 tons hammering around you.
TomMasz@lemmy.world · 188 pts · 33d
No matter where you come from , once you can say "I know a guy" you're an American.
ashenone@lemmy.ml · 77 pts · 33d
I may not know a guy, but I know a guy who knows a guy
bravesirrbn@lemmy.world · 43 pts · 33d
You got a guy guy? Nice
Warl0k3@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 32d
It's amazing how many different species of Knowaguy there are. I recently was introduced to a friend's "Bridge Guy" - a dealer in surplus bridges who will cut you a suspiciously good deal if you seem cool. Not the most immediately useful, but like... Could be damned handy to have in my back pocket should the right circumstances arise.
EggInDisguise@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 11 pts · 32d
I've needed a bridge guy twice in my life.
Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that its happened twice.
WhyIHateTheInternet@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 32d
Be careful acquiring bridges from a guy. I've heard that can go horribly sweet awry and quickly.
Iamaquantummechanic@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 32d
I am that guy
TomMasz@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 32d
It still counts!
87Six@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 32d
I say "I know a guy" and if said guy were american he'd be in prison lmao
Malyca@lemmy.zip · -54 pts · 33d
Societies that run on favors are corrupt societies.
thebestaquaman@lemmy.world · 69 pts · 32d
Societies that run on neighbours, friends, acquaintances, and that guy over there helping each other out in exchange for sharing pizza and beer afterwards are wholesome societies.
Malyca@lemmy.zip · 14 pts · 32d
I think I didn't say it how I meant to say it. I meant in a political sense, there's no law, just who you know.
ProjectPatatoe@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 32d
I think what you originally said makes sense in the strictest sense. Technically, not favors. The payment was pizza.
In Frieren, the main hero would always charge a "fee" even to the poorest people who needed help. Often at the cost of totally worthless items because "now they don't owe me". The transaction is complete, no furthur obligation. Even "token" fees are better than ambiguous favors imo. Thats where I usually charge the friend price of a meal for most of my services.
FerretyFever0@fedia.io · 23 pts · 32d
Depends on the favors. Moving furniture for others in exchange for a portion of a pizza isn't a problem.
Malyca@lemmy.zip · 4 pts · 32d
No not that
Warl0k3@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 32d
A society that operates on an assumption of mutual support is generally just called anarchy.
Space_Cowboy92@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 32d
And societies ran on capital with different tiers of classes based solely on the situation a person is BORN into is certainly the more just and appropriate way to organize a society? It definitely couldn’t be one based on mutualism and equity, no sir.
/S
Salvo@aussie.zone · 2 pts · 32d
Favours need to be paid back. This story is about paying it forward.
The Truck guy receives no financial reimbursement for his time, fuel and wear-and-tear, but the helpers are not paying back someone for the help, they are paying forward.
Corruption is where someone is collecting financial gain without a commensurate amount of effort. A contract “Man with a Van” who gets paid to move goods is more able to abuse their role for extortion or corruption than a loose social group of “Bloke with a Ute”.
Malyca@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 30d
Thanks for explaining
Broadfern@lemmy.world · 166 pts · 33d
The American lower-working class economy is predominantly favor and goodwill-based, yes. Pain in the ass sometimes but also more fun imo. Community is important to keep alive.
hayvan@piefed.world · 139 pts · 32d
Not just American. It's poor people's economy everywhere. American working class has more in common with working class in every other nation than American wealth class. The real division in the world is class division, everything else is distraction.
mirshafie@europe.pub · 34 pts · 32d
This exactly. There's an inversion when having money is more convenient than having contacts and doing small favors, and that inversion turns people into lonely cunts.
Mouselemming@sh.itjust.works · 22 pts · 32d
Incredibly wealthy people also run their society based on favors and unspoken fees. The difference is, one of them could, under unusual but not impossible circumstances, help a friend and a guy move a fridge and share a pizza and beer. But nobody who's not part of the incredible-wealth society can participate in its favors. And we all pay the fees.
thebestaquaman@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 32d
I don't see what about this that makes it a "working-class" thing? I thought it was common practice to help each other out in exchange for pizzas and beer in any part of society where people have friends? I see it primarily as an excuse to hang out while doing something together.
hayvan@piefed.world · 16 pts · 32d
Whenever you can afford to pay to have a problem of yours solved, it's often the most convenient way of solving it.
Anyone who makes their living by working, either for salary or hourly rate, is working class. Let's just be on the same page about that.
A working class person basically survives by converting their time and energy to cash. So paying cash is also paying with your labour, indirectly and often inefficiently. It's always a matter of "is it worth it"? Hiring movers for moving your entire home may be worth it, just one piece of furniture often isn't.
A wealth-class person gets their income from what they own. Its "passive" from their point of view, the money just appears as profit or capital gains or whatever. It's still a limited resource, but often way more available. Any kind of favours you do or ask for at this point is purely for fun/social purposes since hiring someone to move that sofa, or even just buying and having a new one delivered is way more convenient and time-efficient, since your money is not literally your time.
thebestaquaman@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 32d
Aha! That's where you got me! I was thinking "working class" in the more classical sense, referring to typical lower-paying jobs. I work for a living, but I'm definitely closer to what is typically considered "middle-class" in the sense that I make enough money that I feel well-off, but not enough that I could buy a new sofa just because moving the old one is too much hassle.
Obligatory "Fuck the wealth-class". "Passive income through ownership" is a convoluted way of saying "parasitic".
Grail@multiverse.soulism.net · 7 pts · 32d
Congratulations, you're part of the working class. Your wealth comes from work you do with head and hand. The epstein class want you to think of yourself as middle class, so you'll feel threatened by the working class. There is no middle class. They take, and we pay. That's what class is.
thebestaquaman@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 32d
I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here, I still want to comment on
I do think it's a reasonable term to separate those that actually make a decent salary, are self-employed, own their own company (at which they work) together with others, etc. from the more clearly exploited workers that have far too few rights and are not compensated fairly.
I have no problem with selling my labour for money as long as I'm fairly compensated for it. Historically, the working class has not been.
hayvan@piefed.world · 3 pts · 32d
If you are working for a salary, you are never fairly compensated. If you received the value you actually produced, your boss can't make a profit. Profit is only possible by a exploitation.
The intensity of said exploitation is a spectrum, there is a huge difference between having some savings and disposable income versus barely surviving. I also make a decently comfortable living as a software engineer but I'm still a crippling accident away from losing it all and depending on disability benefits.
Grail@multiverse.soulism.net · 2 pts · 32d
Even if life is good for you at your income level, you're still getting scammed to a (much smaller) extent. And the Epstein class use the money they scam off you, to control society. Money has this mathematical effect where it wants to accumulate in one place. It's like a kind of economic gravity. Any inequality will magnify itself over time if it isn't carefully controlled by government.
Social democrats think good enough regulation can preserve that very-slightly-inequal system forever. But I say that kind of setup is inherently unstable. Capitalism will always trend towards inequality over time. Instead of trying to control money and make it go against its nature, we should abolish money. A gift economy would be better.
bufalo1973@piefed.social · 1 pts · 31d
There's an Spanish song about that: El vals del obrero (the worker's waltz)
(Translated with Reverso. Sorry for the possible mistakes)
Proud to be (Proud to be)
Among the proletariat (Among the proletariat)
It’s hard to make ends meet
And have to sweat and sweat
To earn our bread
And this is my place, these are my people
We are workers, the preferred class
Therefore, proletarian brother, with pride
I sing you this song, we are the revolution
Yes, sir! , the revolution
Yes, sir! , Yes, sir! we are the revolution
Your enemy is the master
Yes, sir! , Yes, sir! we are the revolution
Long live the
I’m sick to death of leeches
Those who steal my dignity
My life is consumed by enduring this routine
Who drowns me more every day
Happy businessman, more calluses in my hands
My kidneys are going to burst
I don’t have a fucking buck, but I’m still paying in
To your welfare state
Up!
In this democracy, there is a lot of smart money to be made
Squeezing our social class
They don't give a fuck if you have fourteen children
And grandma can’t be operated on
We are the workers, the basis of this game
In which he always loses the same pringao
A well thought out game, in which we are kept quiet
And they fuck you if you don’t want to play (Up!)
Dozzi92@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 32d
I have a friend who's done very well with the AI boom, he works for some startup, has for the past six or seven years. He moved into an apartment like 10 years ago, he was working for a pharma company, just building their servers I'll say, because I don't know what the fuck he does. When he moved into the apartment, he hit me up, I rounded up another friend or two, we took care of it.
He bought (had built) a new home about six or seven months ago. He did not call me to help him move. He's moved beyond that, because to him, he doesn't want to be involved. You don't call someone to help you move and then not take part. For him, it's a no-brainer to just pay to have it done. And that's fine, and I just kinda wanted to give an example of this divide.
UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 32d
This is a wild concept for other cultures. Like, in Germany people will help you move. Your friends that is. Maybe a coworker or neighbour - if you even know any neighbour at all. That is all but a given here as well. But some random guy? Nah...
Oh and you absolutely have to rent a truck. I don't know a single truck person. There is no such thing as having a truck, unless you need it for business. Long story short: I just paid a company >2k to move just one town over
bonesawmcl@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 32d
This can absolutely also happen in a place like Germany. Yes, no one really has a truck for personal use (or rather a box truck), but you know a guy who knows a guy that has a truck for his business and doesn't need it on the weekend, et voila. Maybe it's not that extreme, but especially for 'poorer' working class people, helping out is still essential even in Germany.
wiocook@peachpie.theatl.social · 3 pts · 32d
When I was in Europe I saw a bunch of houses with trailers they could tow bulk items with their cars. Are those not common in Germany?
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 12 pts · 32d
Also strongly depends on the community and your perceived level of acceptance within the community.
Anyone who's ever been viewed as an outsider knows that it is not this simple unless you happen to fit in.
zikzak025@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 32d
Yeah, small town community always sounds warm and fuzzy until you end up on the outside.
A while back, I knew of a family that moved into a house in the center of a town near where I grew up. A couple and two kids. The town had a big clock with a bell that rang hourly. Even in the dead of night. Right across the street from their house.
The family asked the town if they could silence the chimes between sunset and sunrise so that they and their kids could sleep. The town said no, the chimes are a local tradition.
The family then brought up state noise ordinances that the town's clock was violating. The town still refused. So they petitioned the state, the state got involved, and made the town silence the clock at night. The locals threw a fit.
The family didn't last long in their new house after that. But they were at least lucky enough to have the means to pack up and move somewhere else.
The less lucky are stuck. They get to spend the rest of their lives as the local "problem". A skewed nail to be hammered down. I've known enough people where any utterance of their name is met with a cautionary "you shouldn't associate with them", even when it's been so long that no one can tell you why. But it's often the case that those are the people most worth knowing.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 2 pts · 31d
Thank you! So many people elsewhere in this comment section don't seem to understand this.
And yeah, it could be over something so benign as that, or even more benign. But too many people assume that if someone is being ostracized, then they must have done something to deserve it. That's not always the case though, especially in puritanical smalltown USA.
Some of these towns, if you're not being ostracized by most of the people there, then something must be wrong with you, because there are places where you'll be ostracized for not supporting maga or for believing in climate change or empathy.
This is why I'm saying we shouldn't romanticize that "smalltown vibe," because there absolutely is a dark side to it. But people are reacting with such hostility. Clearly they haven't lived in the kind of area I'm talking about...
Flower@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 32d
That was the ancient economy, before money even existed. You gave stuff to people. Bread, pots, meat, build a cabin. They gave stuff back that you needed, roughtly about the same value, but never exactly the value. Everybody has to be a little in debt to anyone else. If you gave back exactly what it's worth, it means you don't want to deal with that person anymore.
Grail@multiverse.soulism.net · 7 pts · 32d
Yeah, this is the gift economy. And when the only economy is the gift economy, that's called communism.
Samsy@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 32d
Shh dude, don't tell the american working class that they are doing communism, because communism is bad, you know.
hOrni@lemmy.world · 129 pts · 33d
This was surprisingly funny and surprisingly positive for something to do with Americans.
village604@adultswim.fan · 73 pts · 33d
Most of us are just regular, friendly people who are glad to help out if needed. There are pockets of shit people who thrive on hate, but that's true for any country.
Whostosay@sh.itjust.works · 15 pts · 32d
They're pretty godamn loud too
incompetent@programming.dev · 5 pts · 32d
That's the thing, the most vocal tend to be the worst type of people. Online that gives the impression that a lot of people are bad when in reality I think most people want to be good people.
Whostosay@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 32d
Agreed, that was actually the point of my comment (at least in my eyes), but I do greatly appreciate you articulating it!
You can really just feel that sentiment in everyday life too, just going about your business, people want to feel helpful. I love that.
It's part of what made me not understand how powerful propaganda could be when I was younger.
Look for the helpers, and when you see someone say Mr Rogers was a bad thing, immediately set them on fire. Duty is duty.
Klear@piefed.world · -6 pts · 32d
Would Kevin and Tony offer to move fridge for a black guy though? Bet you can't say for sure.
GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 32d
Having been someone's Kevin and/or Tony in this country, they could be green and have antennae. They're a neighbor, they need a couch moved, and I happen to have nothing to do today. This is the code.
TheLegendaryAssholeOfJushinLiger@sh.itjust.works · 19 pts · 32d
Americans are a very friendly people, all things considered. The whole smiling at everyone you see, helping out strangers for fun thing is not universal. Thus, this post.
Grail@multiverse.soulism.net · 6 pts · 32d
My partner is from America, and visited Australia for two weeks to see Me. We spent two weeks going on dates together, visiting cool places like the museum, the zoo, a local pirate bar, an escape room. My partner says Australians are much friendlier than Americans and we smile more.
TheLegendaryAssholeOfJushinLiger@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 32d
I could believe it. It's not that it's unique to America, or anything. But like I've read stories about Dutch people for instance thinking Americans on public transportation were simple, due to all the smiling and the like.
flambonkscious@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 32d
There are a lot of 'good cunts' in Aussie, for sure.
Its tricky when grumpy or upset but that's a human thing - often they're better at expressing it
(Bear in mind, this is all coming from a kiwi male - I'm scared of my feelings or expressing stuff generally)
kieron115@startrek.website · 10 pts · 32d
That ending was damn near wholesome. Also I think my favorite part of the whole thing was "the pizza is not negotiable."
Caesium@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 32d
it's hard to remember that the average person is a human just like yourself
TJDetweiler@lemmy.ca · 7 pts · 32d
As a Canadian who owns a truck, I think this may just be a North American thing. I am the guy that is referred to when one says "I know a guy".
wieson@feddit.org · 3 pts · 32d
In central Europe it's just like "I know a guy with a trailer" or a hitch and you rent a trailer. Or as a last resort or maybe an urban thing, you hire a moving truck and still call upon your friends to load and unload and pay in beer and pizza/döner.
BlackVenom@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 32d
Ignore religion, politics, and hard drugs and this is just normal.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -4 pts · 32d
As an american, I think it's toxic positivity because it ignores all the invisible social rejects who live on the margins of society and don't have the type of community support that makes this possible.
The OOP happened to luck out and knew some nice people and also happened to be accepted by those people as someone who's worth helping.
The same Kevin might be a completely different person when he drives through a city and sees a homeless person struggling to move a tent with all his possessions...
snooggums@piefed.world · 102 pts · 33d
Absolute poetry.
Toto@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 33d
Reads like Burkowski
duckshuffgoose@lemmy.ml · 1 pts · 32d
I thought like a modern day Andre dubus
Eq0@literature.cafe · 12 pts · 33d
It has a deep seeded rhythm indeed
capt_wolf@lemmy.world · 87 pts · 32d
I miss work for trade...
You just took care of a guy and when the time came, he took care of you.
"Today you... Tomorrow me..."
Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 39 pts · 32d
Padit@feddit.org · 10 pts · 32d
I mean, thats just how it still is in my village. It does not seem to be a particularly endangered way of living and rather the norm in rural areas.
thisisbutaname@discuss.tchncs.de · 8 pts · 32d
This is the way
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world · 70 pts · 32d
Non-toxic Masculinity
VitoRobles@lemmy.today · 9 pts · 32d
Absolutely
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 8 pts · 32d
Except women also have those connections.
The price may be different, like a baby blanket for their neice.
gnu@lemmy.zip · 8 pts · 32d
Men doing something negative is readily called toxic masculinity. Men doing something positive however can't be non-toxic masculinity because women do something similar but different...
Is it really that hard for you to admit that masculinity can be associated with positive things?
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 32d
Some people just hate men and can barely contain that. They may not even know it themselves.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 0 pts · 31d
I don't hate men, but masculinity is a millstone.
There's a difference.
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 31d
Elaborate, because your eagle-eye poetic view just seems like a rewording of misandry.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 30d
Men are fine. Masculinity in 2026 as an ideology or a cultural institution is a problem.
Men exist in concerning numbers who submit to the manosphere logic, who follow the far-right influencers I've mentioned, who vote R because letting the libs win is effeminate. And curiously, conservative, tradwife-minded women don't like them much either.
Manhood as expressed in media isn't much better, with scriptwriters diegetically presuming the alpha male model is a valid theory. (It's been debunked even for wolves.)
There are plenty of men who do not submit to these notions, and generally they tend to not be concerned about expressing their manhood or being seen as inadequately masculine. They are more concerned about being adult or being functional than being manly.
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 30d
Is this more or less stating "Men are fine as long as they aren't masculine?"
You're going to have to define what "man" "woman" "masculine" and "feminine" are in your mind then, because that statement doesn't logic with any of those definitions that I agree with; it's like saying "water is fine as long as it contains no H2O."
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · -1 pts · 32d
All the virtues associated with manhood in the 1970s and 1980s turned into general adulting in the 1990s and aughts.
In 2026, what it is to be a man is asserted by social media personalities like Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro, Joe Rogan, the Tate brothers. The conversation on masculinity is dominated by the manosphere on social media and far-right television.
Expressions of manhood are on full display when Josh Hokit disparages Michelle Obama, when Trump intervenes in the world cup to cancel a red card and lift the one game penalty on Folarin Balogun. Or when US Representative Max Miller doubles down on his innocence in a video making common DV gaslighting arguments in the face of credible abuse allegations, on the presumption that his MAGA base won't care and will still vote for him.
Masculinity in 2026 is demonstrated when you discharge your strength in malice or cruelty or bad taste to show the world you are beyond the reach of consequences, or do not care what consequences occurr.
But sure. I'm AMAB and have been criticized for half a century for being inadequately masculine. I've been repeatedly bullied and disregarded because I'm a wuss or a wimp. But I'm still game. I'm still open to an argument:
Tell me of a positive human trait that is particular to men that is not also expected of women by our society?
I'm not saying good men don't exist. To the contrary, there are plenty. But I am saying what makes them good is not a feature of their masculinity, rather it's a feature of being a functional adult in a (rapidly deteriorating) liberal society.
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 31d
Tell me of a positive human trait that is particular to women that is not also expected of men by our society.
Ultimately there are things that men tend to do that are positive and there are things that men tend to do that are negative. This post is an example of the former.
In other words, you're over-complicating things because a handful of jackasses want to redefine what being a man is, and you declare that because they exist there cannot be anything (left) that is masculine. That makes no sense and is caving to their whims.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 0 pts · 30d
That handful of jackasses dominate social media in contrast to their opposition counterparts, and it's creating a public divide between the sexes, hence the 4B movement and the choose the bear thought experiment.
I don't know to what degree this factors into the observable trend that zoomers are having less sex and less romance than prior generations at their age. (I'm sure the affordability crisis is a major factor.) But in the US in 2026, our exemplars of masculinity are demonstrating they are entirely transactional and only understand the power of brute force.
And it's going to be a long, long time before stereotypes of masculinity change for the better.
Feel free to set a counterexample. Plenty of men do. And we need more of them. But when they do, they're not demonstrating what it is to be a man. They're demonstrating what it is to be a functional adult in a cooperative society.
I also think society gender roles should be abolished, and that every gender identity (including non-binary ones) should be respected.
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 30d
You'll have no disagreement from me that there's far more profit - and a resulting niche of people capitalizing on that - in teaching kids how to be masculine in a toxic way.
My point is it simply doesn't follow that all forms of masculinity are toxic any more than all art is AI because AI art is on the massive rise.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 0 pts · 29d
I will grant you I'm referring to what popular culture teaches us masculinity looks like. I'm taking my cues from what social media is popular, what US cinema has to say about masculinity. But that's because it's also about the expectations of displays of manhood, what we are obligated to do if we're real men.
There's also this video (on YouTube) from J. Draper and PBS which asserts that there's been a masculinity crisis for about as long as there's been a moral panic about new fads corrupting our kids (id est, always), that there have always been pundits and editorial correspondents saying that men are becoming too effeminate.
One source I haven't yet been able to tap is what trans men have to say about masculinity, because to them social expression of their gender is super important. But I don't know any trans men well enough to stop and ask them.
BarrelAgedBoredom@lemmy.zip · -1 pts · 31d
Don't know why you're getting downvoted, you're right lol. My only sticking point is that your phrasing kind of implies masculinity being characterized by dominance is a more recent development. bell hooks had a whole book breaking this down in 2003, and there were mens rights movements (that develolved into the proto manosphere) in the 70s and 80s who noticed this and tried/failed to redefine masculinity. Early feminist works identified domination and "whatever a.woman isn't" as defining features from the jump. Nothing you're saying is new or controversial, and there's decades of rigorous, scholarly work validating it
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 0 pts · 31d
In the 1970s and 1980s, there were traits that were positive traits characterized as masculine. Only with time as the workforce got integrated, and as women got more personal autonomy (such as property rights), we noticed women, too, could man up and take responsibility. In fact they had to.
Through my thirties, my model was Captain Jerry Lawson in Wargames, ([here] on YouTube) an air force missileer who was run through a surprise missile drill, and refused to turn the key and launch a nuclear strike against the USSR. The capacity to hold vast power and not use it (or to use it judiciously and proportionately) was highly prized during the cold war.
See also, The West Wing s01e03, A Proportional Response (also featuring John Spencer!). Bartlett is emotionally caught up when an attack by Syria kills someone he knows personally, and his cabinet has to reign him in.
See also To Kill A Mockingbird, specifically when Atticus Finch has to put down a rabid dog at range with a rifle.
Women are also capable of holding responsibility and not using it, so I still hold the capacity as a virtue, it's just no longer a man thing.
And then in the Trump era, we're seeing an awful lot of men who have immense power and clearly should not be trusted with it. Trump's fire and fury speech regarding the conflict in North Korea was an early portent to the rest of us of his later decisions to misuse US military might.
Indeed, after Trump's first term, we learned that he had called to use nuclear weapons more than once, and his military cabinet deflected his orders every time.
During his second term, I don't know if those safeguards are still there, or if he's still as eager to use the US nuclear arsenal.
GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 32d
If you don't know a Kevin, you definitely know an Ashley. And Ashley knows everyone who has a grandma with a group of retired friends who are itching for something to do.
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 32d
Men can also do feminine things. What's your point?
bss03@infosec.pub · 62 pts · 32d
If the guys that frequently move furniture describe you are "strong for your size", that is a powerful compliment.
VitoRobles@lemmy.today · 16 pts · 32d
I love positive masculinity.
kadotux@sopuli.xyz · 59 pts · 32d
It's so refreshing to see goodvibe things from the US :D
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca · 58 pts · 32d
This is the way.
You engage in the economy of helping people to move stuff. One person has a dolly, another has a truck, they come, they move the thing, you pay in pizza and at least one IOU of "I'll be there for you next time".
When the time comes you are enlisted, you go, you help, you recieve pizza.
The cycle continues.
This is the way.
This is the only way.
Angryhumanoid@fedinsfw.app · 55 pts · 33d
clay_pidgin@sh.itjust.works · 50 pts · 33d
I am "the guy" at my kids' schools. I love it. When they need a last minute volunteer for something, they know how to reach me.
Blurntout@lemmy.ca · 22 pts · 33d
Clay pigeon signal hits the night sky
HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works · 15 pts · 33d
PULL!
peteypete420@sh.itjust.works · 45 pts · 32d
Fyi, if you are moving one piece of furniture, sure get the truck guy and a couple buddies. If you are moving ALL your stuff, hire movers. (Unless you and your buddies are in their 20s)
NABDad@lemmy.world · 21 pts · 32d
In my experience, that's what Dad is for.
It starts with Dad moving you to and from dorm rooms. Then apartments.
When my wife and I moved to our house I hired movers. It was a lot easier and not terribly expensive.
When my wife moved her business to a new building, my mom told me my dad insisted on helping us move, so I didn't hire movers as I had planned. When we were moving the tons of furniture, cabinets, and massive boxes stuffed full of files, my dad mentioned that my mom told him I had asked him to help me move. I have never been able to determine why my mom manipulated us into nearly killing ourselves.
Now I'm the dad. I've moved kids to and from dorm rooms and apartments. I've rented trucks for huge moves. My daughter and I are moving a couch, a dresser, an end table and all her cooking utensils on Saturday.
Not only do I have a truck, I also have straps, furniture dollies, moving blankets, mattress bags, etc.
My most recent purchase was a shoulder dolly. If you haven't seen one, picture two harnesses with a wide strap running between them. Two people squat on either end of the item being moved with the wide strap running under it. You take up the slack in the strap, and just stand up to lift it off the ground. It's a game changer.
I've become my own moving company.
dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world · 42 pts · 32d
I fucking love these.
My favorite is the Waffle House: https://wandering-nobunaga.com/stories/a-waffle-house-at-three-in
OryxAndCake@slrpnk.net · 12 pts · 32d
There is more?! Thank you for linking this!
otacon239@lemmy.world · 40 pts · 33d
My friend is a ring leader for these types of guys. He knows like 15 guys with a truck and at least another 30 with arms. He’s able to get a lot of projects done around the neighborhood.
0ops@piefed.zip · 39 pts · 32d
Yeah, I was Tony last week. But instead of pizza I was paid in beer. Good deal, would do again
Agent641@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 32d
I fix people's computers in exchange for food.
Printers, I execute for free.
popekingjoe@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 32d
xavier666@lemmy.umucat.day · 1 pts · 32d
I am not sure what executing a printer means and it seems the other commenter has the answer or is equally confused.
Agent641@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 32d
Printers are of the devil and must be purged
CrabAndBroom@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 32d
I genuinely don't understand why printers are so shit. Like we have a 3D printer that looks like a pile of bolts put together by a drunk person (which is was) that creates pretty much any object you tell it to with seemingly no trouble at all. And those are a relatively recent invention. Meanwhile, the 2D printer has decades of advanced technology behind it and looks like a sleek white sci-fi cube, it's only job is to put words on a fixed-size sheet of paper (the thing that the Gutenberg press was doing in the 1400s) and it fucks it up about 60% of the time.
GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 32d
Me too! I trade repairs for food all the time If it's a big job, I do it for the price of parts and a trip for ice cream. It's a good deal.
Tyrq@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 35 pts · 32d
I was always the guy with the truck. For a couple years I was the guy with the minivan with no back seats in lieu of a truck, but now I'm back to being the guy with the truck amongst my circles. I didn't know how much I liked being that guy until I wasn't.
Dozzi92@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 32d
My neighbor is the guy with the truck. He feels the same way you do, says he just can't imagine not being available to help folks out. He's helped me out. I help him out (not with a truck, of course). He has a truck because he is big, it's comfortable, and because he can help people move shit or get mulch or whatever. He lives for it.
Delphia@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 32d
I am the guy with a ute (Australian for truck) but I dont come with. You can borrow it for as long as you need, it comes with a full tank and it comes back with one.
Its a bit of a heap but it starts every time and runs all day. I cant justify the yearly expense to keep it around for the dozen or so times a year I need it. But my friends and neighbours get great value out of it so I do.
plyth@feddit.org · 32 pts · 32d
Until now, trucks seemed to be linked to toxic masculinity. Turns out, the guys just want to be part of the community.
hansolo@lemmy.today · 32 pts · 32d
Having been the guy with the truck for a while, that is 100% how it works. However, the currency can also be a beer (or two).
TipRing@lemmy.world · 31 pts · 33d
IIRC, Japan_Nobunaga is a slop account.
cogitase@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 15 pts · 33d
Some of the anti-immigrant sentiments smell strongly of a CHUD larping as a Japanese man.
ceenote@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 32d
It reads that way, but it's a cute story 🤷
eah@programming.dev · 5 pts · 32d
It's been a blast to see the death of the internet as fraudsters pollute the world with books they hope to make a quick buck on and which they did not write themselves. Real fun. /s
TipRing@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 32d
nightlily@leminal.space · 3 pts · 32d
Also extremely racist.
FedX@quokk.au · 1 pts · 33d
Yeah, your right.
LillyPip@lemmy.ca · 28 pts · 32d
This is the most American thing I have read in my life. I have lived for more than half a century, some of it in several different US states.
Seriously, if anyone asks what the US is like, show them this post. It’s perfect.
zr0@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 27 pts · 32d
This is 0% shitpost and 100% wholesome.
ChanchoManco@lemmy.zip · 25 pts · 32d
Today would be my brother's birthday, he was my truck guy (and so much more).
dismay3915@lemmy.world · 25 pts · 32d
Dude this gold :))
Laughed quite a bit. This guy should be a writer he has a great way with words and stories. Reminded me of a Japanese Chuck Palahnuick
Stonewyvvern@lemmy.world · 25 pts · 32d
Been aware of this unwritten rule for a number of years. The people who ask me for help do not. They insult the tradition by trying to give me money...stunch refusal gets me strange looks but invites to weekend bbqs.
tetris11@feddit.uk · 24 pts · 32d
pretty smart move in retrospect - "eternal and obligatory friendship is the only currency I trade in"
yuurei@sh.itjust.works · 24 pts · 32d
As a Japanese person, my first reaction was, "That sounds exhausting." I'm genuinely curious, though. Is this something most Americans enjoy, or is it one of those social expectations that not everyone is actually comfortable with?
PlaidBaron@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 32d
This phenomenon is the same here in Canada so I will pitch in. It is not enjoyed. It is not hated. It merely is. When a neighbour needs help, you help them. Even if its the neighbour with the yappy dog. There is no emotion tied up in it one way or another. Its just the right thing to do.
Techranger@infosec.pub · 4 pts · 32d
katze@lemmy.4d2.org · 16 pts · 32d
I think that Kevin and Tony probably don't even think about this, they lived their entire live that way. They don't know any better.
Here in Germany, if you want to move a sofa, you have three options:
Rent a transporter (no one here has a truck), park it illegally in front of the house while onloading the sofa, transport the sofa, park the car again illegally while unloading it. If the police catches you or a neighbor files a complain, you may have to pay a fee.
File a form so that someone puts up traffic signs for that day that no one except you may park in front of the two houses. Costs around 90 € and takes 3 weeks. Rent car, proceed as usual. Someone will see that you park in a "no parking" zone and does not know that you requested that zone, so he will file a report. Therefore, later, fill some more forms to battle that claim.
Do 1) at night where no one sees you or cares.
(This is of course highly exaggerated. Parking is not such a problem in every city.)
yuurei@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 32d
That's interesting. I always thought Europe was more relaxed about things like that. In Japan, at least, you're generally allowed to stop temporarily while loading or unloading furniture, so this surprised me.
Miaou@jlai.lu · 5 pts · 32d
Parent comment was about Germany, so no not really. The Germans (including the whole DACH area) are as much fun as the Japanese. Although when it comes to car it's more or less free for all
MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 32d
Yes, no-parking areas allow temporary un/loading. Some mainly foot traffic streets may restrict it to early morning hours.
regdog@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 32d
That's probably because japanese residental streets are often very narrow. At least that's how it is in the animes.
yuurei@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 32d
That's true. Japanese residential streets really are that narrow, if not narrower. You could argue that's why parking enforcement is necessary, but if the police ticketed every car that stopped briefly to load or unload furniture, nothing would get done. Long-term parking is another matter, but a temporary stop like that usually isn't something people worry about getting fined for in Japan.
JensSpahnpasta@feddit.org · 4 pts · 32d
TBH: In most cases you simply park in plain daylight somewhere near your flat, chuck the sofa in the transporter and drive away. There is no risk of some parking officer catching you and even if, the fines are low.
NABDad@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 32d
In Philly you stop wherever you are and do whatever you're going to do.
It's not unexpected to find people just parked in a lane blocking traffic while they unload.
GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 32d
Yeah, this is really normal. It's one of the rare things that I absolutely, genuinely like about my country. If someone says they need help, even a total stranger, you help them.
The good Americans are pretty free with their labor when it comes to their neighbors, and the definition of 'neighbor' is pretty loose. If I met you five minutes ago, you need help with something, and we live in the same city, you're my neighbor.
CrabAndBroom@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 32d
On the total stranger thing: last time I moved we got everything in except for a mattress. There were three of us and we couldn't get it up the stairs. Some random man was walking by and saw us, offered to help and then just hauled the mattress up the stairs by himself and was like "have a good one" and carried on with his day lol.
CMDR_Horn@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 32d
100% this, if anyone needs my help and I don't have a conflict. I'll help.
raze2012@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 32d
Definitely not something I've heard of. This is either very old school America (50-80s) or something done in very small towns where everyone knows one another.
That said, this is definiely something I know friends would do for each other. Truck or not. You have some boys over to help move some stuff around, you cook or grab food for them an pay the bill. But you gotta be pretty good friends for me to call you up like that (or vice versa).
yuurei@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 32d
Your comment resonates with me.
Allero@lemmy.today · 10 pts · 32d
For me too sometimes, but this is what it takes to build a community.
Your plans may suddenly take a turn, but in exchange, you get helping hands for whatever you need to do - and a sense that whatever happens, you know the folks
yuurei@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 32d
It feels like something that has been lost in today's society, and unfortunately, it seems difficult to regain it at this point. I don't know where this difference came from.
CrabAndBroom@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 32d
This is pretty much how it works in Canada too. It can be a bit of a pain (especially if someone is moving in winter) but it's just one of those camaraderie things you do. If you're gonna move you let your friend group know, and you can pretty much rely on about 60-75% of them showing up to help, and in return you feed and beer them. Then when someone else is moving you do the same for them.
If you have a good excuse you can sometimes skip one, but if you never show up (especially if other people have already helped you move) that's very bad. Nobody will say anything, but the group remembers.
Squirrelanna@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 6 pts · 32d
It's one of those social expectations not everyone is comfortable with. I think it comes from a good place though. It's essentially community sourced mutual aid. For lack of, you know, easy access to aid from society as a whole.
AgentOrangesicle@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 32d
If you empathize with having to move a heavy sofa up several flights of stairs with only two people, you help move a stranger's sofa. There's no enjoyment. It sucks for everyone. People get hurt and bump around and say, "sorry" and "ow" a lot. That's what the pizza/beer is for.
Even if you're moving it at 9:00 am, you crack a beer when you're done. It's more volunteer work than civic duty, but it feels more rewarding than a shift at the food bank.
Source: I volunteer for the food bank.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 32d
Enjoyment is not in the act itself. Enjoyment comes from the appreciation of your fellow citizen who needed a thing moved that they were unable to move without help.... And pizza.
I don't find it uncomfortable. You're there to do a job, you do it, you get your pizza and the appreciation of your fellow human, you go home.
You're there for a purpose. People want you there for that purpose. You might not be good at it, but you're there and that's the important part. At the end of the day, the thing is done.
It's a social contract, and it's not exclusive to guys.
Newhere@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 32d
And how it's done in Japan if friends don't help?
yuurei@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 31d
We pay professionals to move it. It cost about 50$ - 100$.
DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 32d
This was the norm when I was young. Comfort with the situation varied, of course. But, to refuse would be more uncomfortable.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz · 3 pts · 32d
If you know a guy with a truck, and you know another guy who needs a guy with a truck, you wouldn't connect them?
lemmygarden@lemmy.today · 2 pts · 32d
I have friends and family members that are willing to do tasks like this. They accept cash. They also get invited to gatherings.
insomniac199@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 31d
As an another Japanese person, i just felt this story is really wholesome and how humanity in general should be like.
yuurei@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 31d
I agree that this story depicts one of the beautiful aspects of human nature. It also sheds light on what has been lost in the process of modernization.
However, when I actually try to imagine myself living in that society, I don’t feel like I could survive in it. I guess it's a typical Japanese response.
yuurei@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 31d
Reading the comments made me realize a couple of things.
When I said it sounded "exhausting," I wasn't really talking about the physical work of moving the sofa. I meant the effort of maintaining the relationships behind it. In many cases, the pizza isn't really the reward. From a Japanese perspective, sharing a meal with someone can actually feel like the more demanding part unless you're very close. Sometimes, even with close friends, it can feel like a bit of an obligation.
I think we have a different idea of what "neighbors" and "friends" mean. For many people in Japan today, neighbors are essentially strangers. There are probably still rural communities where neighbors help each other, but that's much less common in cities. As for friends, we generally don't rely on them for everyday necessities. Of course we're happy to help our friends when they need it, but friendship itself isn't expected to function as part of the infrastructure of daily life. We don't stay friends because we need each other. We stay friends because we enjoy each other's company.
MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 32d
Maybe a vestige from the colonial days?
Seasm0ke@lemmy.world · 24 pts · 32d
This is anarchy in the usa
agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works · 24 pts · 32d
I have a truck. I know at least two other people with trucks. Once the pizza is offered, and maybe some beers if it's a big job, we're there. It's the truck code.
GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 32d
This is the way.
Agent641@lemmy.world · 23 pts · 32d
Someone just invented the concept of community
raze2012@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 32d
This sure did sound homely. And a life in a bygone era.
Kongar@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 23 pts · 32d
I own a truck. I live in the states. In a state more urban than rural - so less trucks comparatively speaking.
BY FAR - the best part about owning a truck, is being asked to help someone move something big. This couldn’t be more true. Except sometimes the payment can be, or include a single cold beer. My name isn’t Kevin though.
I do this ALL THE TIME-and I love it.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 22 pts · 32d
Can confirm. Until I threw my back in my forties, I was Tony.
I threw my back helping someone move an exercise machine. For someone else.
A pizza is the price. Two toppings is typical, or the everything special.
For a while I was also the guy with the cordless drill you could borrow.
AVincentInSpace@pawb.social · 20 pts · 32d
Is this that communism/neighborhood community thing everybody keeps talking about?
Zozano@aussie.zone · 1 pts · 32d
Capitalists: "those poor idiots, they could've been getting paid this whole time"
CADmonkey@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 32d
Oh shit. Oh no.
Im that guy who fixes small engines and computers.
GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 32d
Same here. Phones, PCs, and sometimes game consoles. I usually charge a trip to get ice cream from A&W or Coldstone or something.
DragonOracleIX@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 32d
My condolences
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 20 pts · 32d
My cousin has become Kevin. She got a big old van for her 2 kids. It has split duty now. Although she doesn't do any of the moving and the price is a full tank of gas.
Crashumbc@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 32d
At today's gas prices you could get professional movers and still buy yourself a pizza afterwards :(
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today · 6 pts · 32d
Oh, she rarely lets it get below half. She's not trying to fleece us.
FenrirIII@lemmy.world · 19 pts · 32d
I feel like this premise could make an entertaining movie if you figured out the 3 act structure
OryxAndCake@slrpnk.net · 3 pts · 32d
With that beautiful writing style? This prose would be lost on film.
Honestly, I thought this was an excerpt from some modern classic usamerican novel. I was fully expecting to find this comment section full of references and people talking about the book.
hirihit640@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 32d
I can see a narration style like this working for a comedy film. Or maybe just a 5 minute skit. Maybe throw in some Wes Anderson visual gags
craftrabbit@lemmy.zip · 19 pts · 32d
That is very wholesome. Also all of the quotes have a very funny American accent in my head.
Outdated4134@piefed.zip · 18 pts · 32d
This must be downvoted because it is absolutely not a shitpost.
VitoRobles@lemmy.today · 12 pts · 32d
I wish there was a community for it, like cool bro shit.
Or Maybe wholesome memes?
flambonkscious@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 32d
Yeah, wholesome would be a good fit
zebidiah@lemmy.ca · 18 pts · 31d
in my experience, this is also how 3d printers work.....
axus@lemmy.ca · 16 pts · 32d
Two decades later, I still regret the temporary back injury a friend sustained helping me to load my heavy desk into a truck I rented.
CetaceanNeeded@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 31d
In Australia the price is beer. If it's a small job, one or two beers, either while doing the job or at the end, big job means a whole case of beer per person. Everyone would think there was something wrong with you if you provided only pizza.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works · 16 pts · 31d
So we've re-derived living in a community from first principles?
JustDorky@lemmy.world · 16 pts · 32d
I'm in halifax, Nova Scotia, if someone knows a guy, let me know
MutantTailThing@lemmy.world · 14 pts · 33d
PIVOT
_stranger_@lemmy.world · 13 pts · 33d
Newhere@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 32d
Same way works in eastern Europe. And especially if you give away furniture to get new one,you can ask person who gets your old stuff to help you to bring a new stuff. As a female, this always worked for me.
Only once I paid something like 50 eur for sofa delivery, because it was during week that I had to pick up from private on certain time and friends were working.
kamen@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 32d
hakunawazo@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 32d
Some day, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, consider this sofa moved.
aesthelete@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 32d
I live in the other part of America where you just hire someone.
When I talk about hiring someone, many people in other America nearly gasp.
CrowAirbrush@lemmy.world · 11 pts · 32d
This is a beautiful piece of art, I like how not having a truck didn't make you useless.
I'm not American we're not big on trucks here, unless you're an independent contractor they do have trucks even though they don't really fit our country haha.
But if someone needs help to move something and you can't supply the car, you're instantly considered useless and never involved in anything from that moment on. Doesn't even matter if you can move the whole couch by yourself.
You're excluded. It's a peaceful life, but it gets lonely at times.
AgentOrangesicle@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 32d
This is heartwarming. It sounds inaccurate. I don't have a truck, but stranger if you live around Portland, I'll help you move a sofa.
Randelung@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 31d
arigatou gozaimasu amerikajinsan
Bakkoda@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 32d
A++ saving to read again today at a low point
undecidedyellow@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 32d
This is the best human interaction I've read about in a long time. Maybe ever.
nightlily@leminal.space · 2 pts · 32d
Unfortunately it’s not real. The account is a bot pushing far right, racist crap.
deacon@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 32d
This could have been lifted from a Neal Stephenson book.
TribblesBestFriend@startrek.website · 3 pts · 32d
God ! Yes !
Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 32d
What an oddly unexpected and wholesome American story.
As a reward, here is another: https://youtu.be/xOp4PO0Ek9A
portnull@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 6 pts · 31d
Self organising society can't work eh? I present exhibit 1A without comment.
People can be good. A society can regulate itself if it is made of good people and bad people are cast out.
Thank you. I liked this, real or not
rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works · 6 pts · 30d
It is good when people help each other. It warms a truck when a community sticks by each other.
Shit like this is why I love the punk scene. The punk scene is like the idealized small American town, for you may one day be asked to help someone you barely know and do it without a second thought. Why wouldn't you help someone who needs it. You know damn well that when the time comes and you too need help, it will be found.
I have pulled on my network of comrades to make sure someone got a phone. This was done for the price of food and fellowship.
WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today · 6 pts · 31d
This is beautiful...
magnolia_mayhem@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 31d
Murica stronk
DankDingleberry@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 32d
this is so wholesome
nullspace@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 32d
This reads like folksy pandering of the highest order.
GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 32d
If you're ever in my neighborhood and need furniture moved, I will cheerfully prove you wrong for the price of a pizza.
Mac@mander.xyz · 5 pts · 32d
Community.
naught101@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 32d
I have a friend with a ute, though he recently moved cities (and scrapped his (very old) ute).. Guess I need to be on the lookout.
rmuk@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 32d
Just in case anyone was wondering, here's a video explaining what a Ute is:
https://youtu.be/9i2eZaJsC7g
absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz · 1 pts · 32d
Also https://youtu.be/_yj1gff-ndc
SubArcticTundra@lemmy.ml · 4 pts · 32d
I saw this tweet back when it was on 2.1M
chode_tode@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 31d
Im the truck guy.
Cris_Citrus@piefed.zip · 3 pts · 32d
This makes me so happy 🥹
sangriaferret@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 33d
I've got a guy 4 that
MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 32d
peteypete420@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 32d
Wholesome.
Grimy@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 33d
Reads like Cormac McCarthy a bit. I like it.
Hueristic_Autistic@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 32d
Hueristic_Autistic@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 32d
onion_dude@lemmy.world · -5 pts · 32d
I was in America the other day and I saw a guy passed out on the street choking on his own vomit. Nobody stopped to help.
I guess it's too bad he didn't need a truck
antiphon@lemmy.world · -17 pts · 31d
tldr. boring
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -21 pts · 32d
Can we not romanticize american truck culture? Those people's heads are already swollen enough without telling them everyone around them relies on their condescension to help.
Sure, there might be a few decent people out there who have trucks, but they're not the majority of truck owners. They're also more likely to help their friends and family, maybe a friend of a friend, but hardly a stranger.
And if you're viewed as an outsider or unliked? Forget it, you're SOL.
Also, this expectation that everyone "just knows", without being told, is unrealistic. It is real, in that people do expect that. And perhaps most normies do "just know." But the social rejects, the neurodivergents, the new neighbors who just moved to this state, etc.? Life is made far more challenging to these people as a direct result of that expectation that everyone should "just know" without being told.
BigDiction@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 32d
First of all this is a shitpost community.
When I moved states, we introduced ourselves to the neighbor and they offered to mow our lawn cause we didn’t have a mower yet. Gave em a bottle of wine, chill neighbors all the way until they moved out.
Most people are decent, even more than the 80/20 rule.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -4 pts · 32d
You're really only acknowledging that you're part of an in-group that can move to a new neighborhood and be immediately accepted. Not everyone enjoys that privilege, and you pretending that your experience disproves that only highlights the erasure.
BigDiction@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 32d
It doesn’t disprove what you’re saying. I’m saying that coming into a shitpost community where the vibe is supposed to be fun and communicating negatively might be a symptom of not being able to communicate positively irl.
It can be hard and I’m sorry if it is for you, but what do you expect from people? Good vibes are contagious
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -5 pts · 32d
"Good vibes" and toxic positivity are tools of fascism. I can't talk about climate change around people cause they'd think I'm being a debby-downer.
Same thing with wealth disparity, poverty, starvation, disability, disease, conflict, displacements, etc. Can't talk about these issues, serious problems in the world, cause everyone's like "dude, good vibes only." Can't talk about corruption and fascism itself because people don't want that "negativity."
Maybe I'm cynical, but it's not without good reason. Maybe if the world held space for more cynicism then we could actually start working on some of the problems we face. But no. Can't have that. Good vibes, dude.
If I need to keep my mouth shut about all the bad things going on in the world in order to be accepted by others, then I'd honestly rather be an outcast...
NihilsineNefas@slrpnk.net · 6 pts · 32d
You don't have to keep your mouth shut about the bad things going on in the world to be nice to people.
The same way an ongoing climate collapse, the rise of real fascism in america (not just 'being friendly' to people as you say) multiple wars and multiple capital G genocides does not mean you've got to be shitty to everyone around you just because they're not perfectly aligned with the way you speak.
Maybe try to take a minute and instead of reading everything in bad faith by instantly thinking the worst of someone who you know nothing about based purely on an internet comment, use the phrase "Dont make perfect the enemy of good."
If you want to stay a self imposed outast, that's fine too. But remember nobody is making it out alive if everyone tries to make it alone.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -2 pts · 32d
I didn't say "just being friendly" makes a person a fascist. What I'm saying is that even fascists can "just be friendly" to the people they accept, and they often do. This is part of what allows fascism to perpetuate.
Someone could be casually sexist or viciously racist, but if they're nice enough to the people in their community, people will say "he's just a great guy," because he's nice to the people who they think matter. They have a word for it. They call them "good ole boys."
I'm telling you my personal experience from living among these people and yet everyone seems to be in denial that this could be the case. But I bet a large proportion of them know an aunt or an uncle or a family friend who's a narcissist or a fascist, but other people don't see through that disguise because they're nice to the ones who "matter." I bet most people here have some experience of not being allowed to call those people out because their friends and family will come to the person's defense and dismiss any criticism.
I'm telling you this happens on a larger scale, and the glorification of these "Kevins" is inextricably tied to it. Maybe not every Kevin with a truck is like that, but I'm telling you a lot of them are.
Also, on a more personal note:
Fuck you for implying this is some sort of choice I'm making. I've been coping with ostracization and rejection my whole life, and you want to assume I'm doing it to myself for some inexplicable reason?
That's a fucking "what was she wearing" moment.
NihilsineNefas@slrpnk.net · 2 pts · 32d
I'm not saying it's an inexplicable reason.
Im saying that you're making a lot of assumptions about people that are harming your ability to connect and learn the truth about them by jumping straight to "You're a fascist/ableist/[insert a label that allows you to maintain your supposed moral high ground by not engaging in converssation.]"
Your attitude of assuming fascism based on one drop of ignorance, either through their poor upbringing, susceptibility/exposure to propaganda or through, in this post for example, their choice to drive a truck, is part of what's causing your social life harm.
Now, to clarify; I am in no way suggesting that you need to make nice with actual fascists. I'm saying you should treat people with differing opinions like human fucking beings, because judging people based on your own assumptions about the miniscule amounts of information you can garner by a short interaction IS some fascist shit.
I, to suffer from being a neurodivergent and more often than not, being an antisocial person, but what I do is actually talk to people like they're actual people, instead of painting then with a wide brush by labelling them.
I have genuinely changed someone's mind on what's going on in Gaza by actually talking to them about it, instead of shutting down any form of communication and cutting them out, because I KNEW they weren't actually a racist, but instead were a product of the absolutely monumental propaganda campaign that is modern mass media and social media manipulation.
JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca · 5 pts · 32d
This is the kind of stuff to bring up in therapy, not with strangers on the Internet.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 1 pts · 32d
If people can only discuss systemic issues in therapy, then we're all fucked.
Do you say the same thing to women or people of color when they talk about sexism or racism? Gay or trans people when they talk about homophobia or transphobia?
Why is ableism any different to you?
BigDiction@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 32d
this is a shitpost community
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -4 pts · 32d
And I think this post is shit, so there you go!
1rre@discuss.tchncs.de · 10 pts · 32d
Thing is, like you say, they're willing to help a friend of a friend, but frankly the bar for a friend is pretty low for a lot of people. As someone who's also neurodivergent and has had approximately three friends on average for most of my life, but recently moved to America and so had a full reset, I've been reminded that the majority of people like to think they're good people, even if they have questionable beliefs or cut you off in traffic or whatever, and thay extends to helping out people that they know.
Given I've been in the country a month, have autism, and live out of the city, I'm probably as in the group you describe as you can get, but I'm still fairly confident if I needed a neighbor to take me to hospital, or someone to help me move a couch, or whatever else, I could find them even through work or the neighborhood pretty quickly, as it just takes one connection to flip a switch in people's brains from "fuck that guy" to "they're in my tribe, I'll help them"
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -1 pts · 32d
That's the thing, not everybody has that connection, and the people who lack it tend to be invisible in these kinds of situations, and there's always a lot of overt hostility directed towards those people whenever they point out that they don't have this thing that everyone else seems to be pretending that everyone has, which is community support.
It's great that you feel like you connect and have the support you need, but that doesn't justify the erasure of people who don't have that.
1rre@discuss.tchncs.de · 6 pts · 32d
Yeah, I completely agree, but it also doesn't mean that the people who don't have that connection to you suddenly aren't willing to help their community, it just means that you have trouble integrating into communities, which is very valid and I can completely relate and understand, as that's kind of how being neurodivergent works.
As much as it sucks to hear, it's absolutely an "it's not them, it's you" situation, and I've been in the same position, and still do get in the same position, where I'm feeling out of place, unsure what to do and unwelcome, and very sensitive to confirmations of that, which is part of at least my experience of being autistic, but I've learnt that a lot of the times you don't actually have to pick up on social cues or whatever to make connections, as most people aren't even that invested anyway, and to most people talking to someone, even if they're weird, is better than talking to nobody. You may say "but everyone's already got friends they're always with" but even that's just an autistic lens over it, as you're just noticing when other people are having conversations but not you. And it doesn't have to be everyone. Like you said yourself, being a friend of a friend goes a long way, so if you just have a few connections with people who are friendlier or more similar to you, then that just gets you into circles. You won't exactly be neurotypical all of a sudden, but it definitely helps with feeling less different or isolated.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -3 pts · 32d
I do have trouble integrating into communities, that's the whole point. That people like me experience erasure. Even now, as I point out that people like me exist, most replies I'm getting have been combative in trying to double down on that erasure.
Like, can we not just acknowledge that there are people who slip through the cracks of society and as a result face challenges that most people never even have to think about or consider? Things that most people view as so easy and simple, that suddenly aren't so easy and simple when you have no friends or community.
But no, people don't like that reminder, so they're hostile towards it, which only reinforces the marginalization and erasure of people like me...
1rre@discuss.tchncs.de · 3 pts · 32d
I think it's harsh on to call it erasure, but completely understand that in effect it's the same thing, because to me it seems people are hostile because what you're saying doesn't match their lived experiences, and so they're saying "that's not how it is" because they believe that you're pre-judging situations based on how you think people will react to neurodivergent people, when that's not the case at all. I like to think it comes from a place of good intentions, but yeah in reality it's no different to saying "just cheer up" to a depressed person, when it's really not that easy or how it works. The most important thing is that as irritating as it is, harboring resentment over this kind of thing helps nobody, and the best thing you can do is accept that they're trying (badly) to help, and that they just don't fully understand what the issue is.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · -1 pts · 32d
Maybe it's not erasure, just passively enforcing the invisibility that people on the margins of society already have to deal with, and then being actively hostile towards anyone who brings it up, because it conflicts with most people's worldview that those invisible, marginalized people don't actually exist or have to cope with these systemic problems. I guess that's different from erasure, somehow.
I'm not pre-judging situations based on assumptions, I'm sharing my lived experience as a neurodivergent person who's always struggled to fit in and find acceptance. And if the hostility I've received in these comments is any indicator, then I have a good fucking point.
It's the normies who are pre-judging the situation based on what they view as "normal" and their disbelief that other people could exist outside of their worldview and need to cope every day with problems that "normal" people don't experience and are blind to. It's like a white person who believes racism doesn't exist. Neurotypicals believing ableism doesn't exist. It's the same fucking shit.
bees@sh.itjust.works · 10 pts · 32d
Yeah fuck Americans! I hate all of them tbh, even the supposed “good” ones. Every single one is a pig and deserves to die. They should really learn to be more tolerant and not to hate people based on one characteristic that they think tells me everything they need to know about a person
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz · 0 pts · 32d
Dude, I'm an american myself, and having grown up surrounded by americans I think I can say that it's not always sunshine and rainbows like it's depicted in the post.
The people around me who drive trucks are the biggest assholes for miles. Rolling coal, denying climate change, flying trump flags, shining high beams in your rearview mirror. Pretending this isn't a real pattern and a serious issue isn't going to get you anywhere.
Sure, there are exceptions. Some people who drive trucks are nice people. They usually drive smaller, older, more beat-up and well-used trucks. But then again, lots of assholes drive those too. As for the big, shiny new trucks that never leave the pavement, there's a reason people say they're compensating for something. They're more likely to run over a cyclist than they are to help you move a couch.
GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 32d
There are two kinds of truck.
The first is an oversized showpiece that's sparkling clean, has brand new tires, and not a single scratch. You need a stepladder to get in to drive, and it has never seen a day of work in its life. The driver is, invariably, a selfish jerk who wants the working-class status of having a truck, but no inclination to use it for its given purpose. They need a little sedan, but they want to take up space and feel important. This is what is known as a 'pavement princess'. This is a bad truck.
The second can be any year, but is usually a little on the old side. The owner has had their hands in every part of the engine, or is on a first-name basis with their mechanic. It is covered in well-earned scars, and the owner is a person like Kevin. This is a good truck.
slackassassin@piefed.social · 3 pts · 32d
As the maintainer of an '02 community s10, I appreciate recognizing the distinction.