As an EV owner, I have a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to people's opinions on EVs here. Many will approach me to genuinely ask about the car, the range anxiety, recharge, etc because they are curious and thinking on getting one.
Then there's "the others". People who for some weird reason hate EVs (especially now that gas is over 2€/lt) will approach me to throw hate on them parroting the usual silly remarks about battery degradation, range, lack of "engine sound"... And it's funny because I never open up a conversation about my EV, you won't see me trying to forcefully talk about it... so when I tell them that I don't care if they like EVs or not, they get even more pissed because they just want to shit on them and hope that I get upset or something? Idk, in Italy there's this kind of people who need to show others how noisy their car is and how manly they are for driving a car that is noisy.
I find this fascinating because no one has ever said anything about my car. I was actually worried they would before I got an EV, because of stories like this.
But I’ve had the car for six years now and I have only had pleasant interactions about it.
They are extremely common here though, so that might be partly why.
In fact, once I thought an elderly man was going to ask something snarky. He said “hey, can I ask about your car?” and then he very kindly asked about what the brake calipers were, because he literally had no idea. Then he said “it’s a really pretty car” and then I felt mentally bad for doubting the sweet old guy.
Living in the inland northwest US I’ve never had anyone approach me to talk about EVs one way or another. I’ve been driving a Kia Niro EV for a year now. Not even the few times I’ve been into North Idaho.
I don’t think I’d be bothered too much by some EV hater trying to be an ass either though given I’m not the one eating shit at the gas station. Charging from flat to full would cost me $6.40 at home… where I essentially do all my charging at 10¢ / kWh
In price? To have a car that had a similar amount of equipment than my atto3, the average difference between the atto and the european brands was around 6-8k euros. And that's just considering the ADAS (like 360° cam, park sensors, autoswitching beams, etc). If I wanted an euro car with all the other "silly" things like the opening roof, the heated wheeldrive and seats, etc, we were going to almost 10k more expensive.
Now you know how vegetarians and vegans feel. Most don't bring it up (I only bring it up now in this context), but still get pulled into discussions about it.
I'm usually the one who talks the least on the table when it comes up. I'm really not interested discussing my personal choices. Some people really are though.
As I've grown older, I've come to realize that many people (too many, IMHO) are not only only somewhat aware* of cultural stereotypes but also seem to willingly, if not proudly adopt them as a vital ingredient to their persona. Like some vibe coders/script kiddies copy-pasting themselves an identity from barely-skimmed "data" they got from a friend of a friend who "totally knows what they're talking about, bro." 🙄🤷🏼♂️
We rented an Ionic 5 for the weekend and I will be going back to gas because... uh, it's rented.
Real talk, though, we're trying to find a good EV because it is better. I don't particularly like the Ionic 5, but that's mostly a hatred for crossovers than anything; also the severe lack of clicky buttons and stuff like automatic mirror dimming that isn't working right. Ugh.
I just wish we had more options in the States, especially without the touch screen nonsense.
Edit to complain: finished our trip and EV charging stations are so hit or miss. People worry about range but that's not it-- it's the fucking apps, flex time pricing and 350 kW chargers only putting out 50 kW for mysterious reasons. This shit needs some serious regulation in the US, fucking yikes.
I have a 2019 Nissan Leaf and it was manufactured at the perfect in-between time of still having physical buttons, without the surveillance tech inside, while also having the 'basic' fancy features like Android Auto, backup cam, etc.
I think ideally, I would have liked an EV conversion kit for my 2006 Scion xB, but it wasn't in the cards at the time.
It does seem like the physical buttons are making a comeback.
Here's hoping. I'd look into even a used option like that, but I'm also hoping we get new battery tech in the next year or two. Not that I mind 350W charger speeds, though.
It is extremely annoying that here I am nearly 8 years later, and the Model 3 is the still the only real choice if you want a compact sedan EV. I don't want to buy another one, but for the love of God, every other option sucks, is impossible to get, or costs $30k more than a Model 3
Yeah, would prefer my Volt be a sedan instead of a hatchback. I've not planned to replace it yet, but I hope there are more that one manufacturer offering EV sedans in the U.S. when I do go to replace it.
Both the EV6 and the I-Pace are crossovers, more wagon-like than sedanlike. And the I-Pace was discontinued in 2024.
In terms of a true sedan, the Polestar 2 (also discontinued), the BMW i4, and the Lucid Air are options, but they're significantly more expensive than a Tesla Model 3.
I want aware that the car has to be brand new as OP never stated that.
No, but I'm pointing out that cars that have been discontinued will not increase in number, so they'll be harder to find on the used market over time.
Like the parent comment, I've rented a Hyundai Ioniq 5 a few times, and liked the way it drove. But it is so ugly I'd never buy it for myself. The EV6 is nice, and I agree it's quite close to a sedan.
The Polestar 2 is great. Drives like a sedan. Undisputably a sedan. But its manufacturer is in a weird regulatory limbo, there weren't a lot of 2s sold, and I personally find the clicking of the turn signal annoying. Also a bit expensive for its specs, even on the used market.
I think we'll eventually see Kia/Hyundai/Genesis, Toyota/Lexus, and maybe Volkswagen and BMW compete in this sedan space with new cars. But for now, most car manufacturers selling in the US seem to be focused on SUVs and crossovers.
I leased an Ioniq 5 SEL for three years and loved it (other than it being an SUV).
When the lease ran out, I bought a used 2024 Ioniq 6 SE which has 360 mile range and almost every feature of the SEL. It was super cheap and it suits me even better than the Ioniq 5.
One of the reasons I got my BYD was because of the clicky buttons. Yes, I have the big touchscreen, but all the car controls have a clicky button that I can feel and touch without looking at a screen. Hell, even for the things that don't have a clicky button (like A/C temperature) you only need to swipe up or down with three fingers on any part of the screen to adapt it so there is nothing you need to find in the screen to drive the car.
I’m honestly surprised anyone rents electrics. I love owning one, but recharging would be obnoxious when traveling to a new place and having to juggle half a dozen different charging apps and a charger probably requiring you to go to a Walmart and sit for half an hour.
Can confirm, but we wanted a challenge and it hasn't been that bad with just one app. We even had terrible luck and had to change plans and find another spot (diesel truck overturned, which is ironic when gas is the reason your EV trip got sidetracked lol).
I imagine having reliable charging at home and work makes it braindead.
You only discover the absurd insanity of the charging market once you drive an EV.
Here you’ll stop at charging stations that proudly state they got incentive money (aka your tax €) from the EU and then ask for >1€ per kWh - unless you are a subscriber, then it’s 15% less. If you are a paid subscriber the rebate is more than 50%. Then you check the roaming service of one of your many subscriptions - it’s 2€/kWh.
It’s like streaming but way more exploitative shittier. I think this needs needs government regulation and companies abusing EU incentives should pay back every cent including compound interest immediately.
More chargers are getting tap-to-pay every day, so it is getting easier.
Also, while I doubt electric charging will be as fast as gas within this generation of vehicles (the required voltage would be rather insane), the EV guys I see online suggest charging to 75% or so because it gets you out of there in half the time. It means slightly more frequent stops, but also makes them not much longer than a bathroom break and snack run.
Oh really? That’s good to hear. The requiring an account and app thing was such nonsense.
Made a road trip 2 years ago and the charge time itself was never an issue, it was more the limited chargers and people on slow charging older EVs keeping them tied up for so long.
I was on AC / L2 chargers (my Volt), so it might not apply directly to DC charging but last weekend both the chargers I used and the DC charger I accidentally parked next to, took tap to pay, though one I ended up using did have an additional fee for tap-to-pay so I used my ChargePoint account. The week before that the DC charger that I just happened upon (and was disappointed didn't do AC charging) actually supported both tap-to-pay and the older mag-stripe-swipe.
All those stations were in MO. I was driving AR-IN and back.
I love owning one, but recharging would be obnoxious when traveling to a new place and having to juggle half a dozen different charging apps and a charger probably requiring you to go to a Walmart and sit for half an hour.
When I see complaints like this, I read it as, "I'm a reckless driver who should have their license taken away." If you're taking long road trips and not stopping every 4-6 hours for a 20-30 minute break, you shouldn't be allowed to own a vehicle at all. You're a danger to yourself and everyone around you.
That’s an incredibly weird take. How did you get to that from a complaint about how hard it was to find a decent charger?
My example wasn’t even about a long drive, just being in a town with only 3 high speed chargers and over the course of a week I got to drive well out of my way and sit and wait for a turn at the Walmart twice. If I’d had a gas car I could’ve filled up at the many many stations nearby so it was an example of why I still wouldn’t rent one when traveling. Hell lookup driving to Yellowstone for an easy example of a route with limited chargers for the large number of summer tourists.
Did you miss the part where I love actually owning one?
Hi, I routinely drive 12+ hours only stopping for gas and bathrooms. It’s fun, and what I do for vacations, and I will never stop. I’ve been doing this since I was a teenager and have never been in a car crash because I’m an absurdly safe driver compared to most people on the roads. I think you have a really extreme view of what safe car driving looks like.
I test drove the ioniq 5 when it came out and its problem, to me, wasn't even that it's a stupid tall hatchback (barely a crossover even). It's that the suspension setup makes it both uncomfortable AND unsporty. No idea if they changed it in later models, but they wouldn't have fundamentally changed the entire setup anyway, only fine-tuning.
When the test drive was over, I sat back into my W211 and that was much more comfortable. Way slower and sluggish, but it was smoother on rough roads, and yet I actually felt where the grip was when going into a corner fast. That car was manufactured in 2003, the Ioniq 5 was a 2020 or 2021 model.
I ended up getting a lightly used W205 C-Class instead, staying with diesel. It was half the price of a brand new Ioniq 5 (since those weren't available used)
But I'm not trying to tell you to buy an ICE vehicle like I did back then, I'm just saying that a lightly used executive car that still has warranty is going to be significantly nicer to drive than a brand new budget car. At the end of the day, you're looking at EVs, battery warranty is 8 years anyway. Get a 2-3 year old one, sell it when the warranty is starting to end (degradation isn't a real issue anymore, but sudden battery cell death can still be).
Your part about the suspension just clicked for me why it was bothering me so much. It was really more bumpy than I thought it would be, compared to what I normally drive. It was more like when I drove a mini cooper, tiny wheel bumpy ride.
But yeah, a slightly used but good car is probably my best bet right now, or just hang on one or two more years to see if there's a breakthrough in batteries or we get Chinese imports, basically.
Hell, it's hard to find subcompacts here at all. I'm willing to abandon my U-turn machines for electric when my car dies, but I'd really rather not. Fuck I love having a miniscule turning radius
But the online mediasphere is chock-full of EV haters regurgitating propaganda about how they’re worse for the environment, the posters suddenly care about child labor in foreign countries, and then there’s the regressive mentally 14 year old tools who can’t handle a car that doesn’t spew noise and exhaust everywhere to make people look at them because that’s a real car. But none of them have owned an EV.
I’m a big car fan, and IMO, the majority of car fans are backwards and stubborn. They can’t stand the idea of EV, they have to have the ability to make stupid power with lots of noise to drive to the mall. Thing is there’s room for both EV and ICE cars. They need to get a grip and stop hyperbolizing that it’s a binary choice, ICE is going to be around for a good while longer.
Eh, maybe this is just my opinon / hot take, but I think we really gotta stop burning petroleum and petroleum products, especially at the individual consumer level.
Yeah, but we can't switch everyone over immediately. Don't worry, the trend is there, and it's good; soon the majority of new cars sold will be EVs, based on what I see. They're just cheaper.
They need their emotional support vehicle to be noisy because otherwise they are not "real machos". Driving a silent EV is for girlies, not for realmen™
My Volvo EX30 does the quarter mile in 7.5 seconds, and it only takes that long because it reaches its 180km/hr speed limiter before the end of the quarter mile.
And if you're not stomping on the go pedal it's also perfectly fine coasting around shopping centre car parks.
Aaaand it costs me $14.50 for a complete 0-100 percent charge at home, which it can do overnight after taking 10 extra seconds out of my day to plug it in. And then I'm good for another week or so of around-town driving.
But yeah, I can imagine if I had to haul 9000 pounds and 8 people back and forth across the entire continent every week like your typical regular car owner, yeah, I can see how it might be difficult to own an EV.
Mine isn't quite that fast as it is a 3 row SUV. Nobody expects it to be as fast as it is though. It's pretty fun to surprise people.
Cheap fillups are the best part. I have solar panels on my house as well so I get paid to drive mine lol
People do have a point about vehicle telemetry and complexity but that's not unique to EVs or even vehicles in general. I do my best to avoid that kind of thing but it's difficult when our whole economy revolves around stealing people's data. You do the best you can in an imperfect world.
I legit once saw an old guy stumble over to his giant ass pickup, physically struggle to pull out a step stool from the back seat and then proceeded to climb into the driver's seat. It was legit terrifying.
Facebook, according to the original headline. But I changed it because I knew I'd be getting 5 different comments from people getting hung up on the 'Facebook' part.
I've seen YouTube videos of those car sales guys talking to customers and then regretting getting an EV because of the distance/range and lack of charging stations and stuff.
How many of videos are real and all that, I have no idea. Also, most of those customers are rolling negative equity and stuff so not a great judgment.
There’s a car site for leaks and industry news called Auto Spies that just constantly shits on EVs. They used to be good for breaking new car info, but now they have a massively right slant on everything.
I have a Chevy Bolt EUV. I will also never go back. I need to get a bigger SUV because kids grow and their equipment for sports is out of hand. But it works for now.
My friend got a Telluride EV and she loves it. She has kids and so she's got lots of stuff to carry around. It's a huge car; I rode in it once and felt amazed how we're at a point where even massive SUVs can be powered purely by electricity. She was especially appreciative that she chose the EV option after gas prices spiked due to Trump's Iran meddling.
My EV is quite possibly the most poorly planned decision of my life.
I live in an apartment and cant charge it overnight. Its a leaf so it only has l2 slow charging and Chademo charging; i live in the US so it doesnt exist -- an adapter costs $750 minimum. I charge for 3 hours every week to go a maximum of 70 miles at a time. When its cold out, thats 4 or 5.
I don't regret it at all, unironically, genuinely.
Yeah, but my version of that is sitting in a dead parking lot for 2 hours to spend $3 on 60 miles with my j1772 connection. I cant wait to have $750 to spend on my stupid computer adapter so i can instead spend 15 minutes at an electric gas station
Yamaha went the extra mile and patented a fake engine for electric bikes that moves and moves air just like a real engine, except it generates negative work.
I hate everything about it and everyone who had a hand on it.
I was so excited for EVs to be quiet. The spaceship noises make me so sad. Like finally, we figured out a way to make a car that didn’t make too much noise, and we legally added in stupid scifi sounds. These neurotypicals ruin everything.
I think most of that is due to regulation, it is so you can't sneak up on someone like Andy in his Prius. Early Model 3s don't even have a speaker to make the sound so they still don't, a friend of mine has one and it doesn't make any woowoo noises
Finally! Someone paying attention to what we're really losing with EVs. What am I supposed to asphyxiate on non-ionizing radiation? That could take years!
If you drive a cyber truck you can just spray some water on it and the poorly isolated battery will probably catch fire. If you want to die from the fumes or cooked it's your pick.
You can also get yourself killed by activating the self driving on a tesla or, even better, by having it activate itself in the worst moment to kill you.
No, no, you got it wrong. If you activate the self driving while driving a tesla it will probably kill you (while trying to run over a kid) by hitting something hard, catching fire, blocking you inside and cooking you alive.
But real, e-bikes are cool. Kind of jealous when I'm going up a hill and see someone just like gliiiide past me. But then I do also like the free endorphins so it's a balance.
I bought one in February and it’s absolutely amazing. I live next to a mountain range and to just bike into the mountains and forests is incredibly nice. My buddy instantly got jealous and then bought one himself, so we now quite often go for trips. I had wanted one for years and had been saving money to buy one for about 18 months. Zero regrets, even though I have had a ton of injuries already, including a broken arm.
The biggest downside is that they're expensive. I did an ebike conversion on my old mountain bike and that was pretty easy. It works really well too. Buying a nice 5-10 year old bike of your preference and converting it is definitely the way to go if you want to save some money.
I did that with a dirt cheap Walmart bike and I'm having so many problems, all of them with the dirt cheap Walmart bike parts, the actual e-bike kit has never given me a single problem.
Yeah I could imagine that would cause some issues. Those bikes don't seem to be the best quality. I suppose the bright side is that there's no reason you couldn't find a used bike somewhere and move the motor and battery to that bike instead. You can't do that with any of the manufactured e bikes that I'm aware of
For real. I love the propulsion tech of EV; hate the in-car experience of every one I've been in (and to be fair, most new ICE cars have the same problem.)
My next car will likely be a [used] ICE, not because it's not EV, but because it's not a spaceship.
I'm in the same boat; can't wait to switch but I will be converting my 2003 Jeep. I like standard shift and off road capabilities. I'm still not sure what kind of a conversion I will do since it floods here so you know lithium and water aren't the best combination.
180,000 MILES on my EV! Best purchase I've ever made. The amount of money saved on maintenance and fuel (got free charging at work and now a neighborhood hub has a free charger). Love it!!
My truck has been in the shop all summer, I'm driving a hybrid rental in the mean time and I feel like I'm using a Flintstones car. I miss my truck and I miss having electric even more.
That's one of the electric vehicles that interests me but from the little I've read the company is horribly managed. I've no interest in a vehicle that could have no parts support in a few years.
Same. I love my EV as a commuter machine but I do miss having a more engaging car. If I can ever afford it I'd love to have a little weekend car like a Miata in addition to an EV that I drive 90% of the time.
Also same. I can even afford an older used Miata if I squint. But man, where would I put the thing? We've fortunate enough to have two cars, but storing a third would be very awkward. The current EV charger location means my car must be parked in the garage. My wife will not be bumped out and shuffling cars seems like a massive PITA.
I also live in SE MI and our roads are firmly grid oriented. I moved here daily driving a 96 Miata and got very little joy out of driving it here.
I don't have a garage so any car I own would be living outside, right along with my EV and its charger. But it sounds like you wouldn't get any joy out of having a sports car so I think the best solution for you is to just not.
I've tried them, and I despise touch screen controls. I don't want to go through menus to change settings.
This is a problem for newer gas vehicles also, the newest car I drive is a 2024 and I hate it. Constant beeping, changing settings reverts with an update, and so on.
If they make an electric car with analog controls and door handles, I'm in. But until then, my favorite vehicle is a 2008 ride with working buttons that don't reset.
I've owned an EV for a while now, and it has been a great car, but I share the same complaints. Almost every car these days, regardless if it's EV or ICE, is an over-engineered data-harvester.
I'm excited for the new Slate trucks. They'll have physical buttons, roll down windows, real door handles, and no infotainment system that tracks you and sells your data. They won't be perfect, but it's a lot closer to what I actually want in a vehicle.
Yeah, that's where I'm at, too. Though I'm caught between intending to drive my current car (2013) into the ground or trying to get something a bit newer (like 2018 or even newer) where I can find a pre-enshitification model to push off the "car dies and I have no choice" date.
Modern cars have more options than ever, no analog control can cover them all. That's why menus are needed. That said, some newer cars do have analog controls too, combustion and EVs.
Do people actually think EV drivers would want to go back to gas? Even intuitively it doesn't make sense. A lot of times it involves sinking some amount of time and effort into the home infrastructure. Of course someone wouldn't do that and then what, change their mind?
there's a population of ICE lovers in this community who chime in every time with 'ev's suck' etc., who I suspect have never actually driven an EV or are being paid to fanboy smog.
So, how does this affect the rapidly growing percentage of people that can't afford a house to charge their vehicle at? Most LT rentals I've looked at in the last decade+ don't offer that amenity, and I'm not aware that affordable solutions are available for said renters... 🥲
First, let's actually specifically define the problem. This has nothing to do with home ownership and everything to do with specifically living in rented apartments, not rental units in general. The typical person can meet 100% of their commuting needs by plugging an EV into a regular wall outlet. Unless you're a fringe case hypermiler, the same outlet you use to power or charge whatever device you're accessing lemmy on can cover your commute. So let's not blow this out of proportion and pretend it applies to everyone who rents.
We're talking only about the portion of the population that:
Doesn't own a home of any kind.
Doesn't rent a single family home.
Doesn't rent a townhouse.
Lives in an apartment without charging infrastructure.
Some searching suggests there are about 23 million apartment units in the US. So we're really only talking about 10% of the population here. People renting other housing types may not be able to install a 240V charger in a garage, but they can literally just use any 120V outlet.
For the 10% of the population that lives in apartment units? For these folks, they can continue to do what they already do - fuel their vehicle at a paid facility. The same thing every single ICE vehicle owner does. The absolute worst case scenario for EV ownership is the that charging your EV becomes as big of a hassle as fueling up an ICE vehicle. And the more people own EVs, the more landlords have to discount their outdated apartments without EV charging capability. At some point we'll just pass laws requiring EV charging. In most areas they already have parking minimums. The cost to add a bit of wiring is a rounding error in the cost of building a parking garage.
I appreciate the writeup, though one salient fact is that rentals rarely offer parking spaces within reach of one's home, nevermind that they're often communal when they do. Until the traditional act of the fill-up changes to an at-home after thought, adoption'll continue to struggle, IMHO.
That's why I distinguished apartments from other forms of rentals. It's not all rental housing that's the issue, but specifically apartment units. Someone renting a single family home can charge the EV in the garage or driveway.
The lack of dedicated/assigned/permitted parking is not restricted to apartments alone, to be clear. Hell, even houses these days seem like they're less and less likely to have a garage, much less a driveway. 🥲
You see houses with driveways but no garages. You don't see houses with garages but no driveways. A driveway is a prerequisite for a garage. You can't access a garage without a driveway. And building single family houses without any offstreet parking is nearly unheard of nowadays. That was the kind of thing that happened in the streetcar suburbs early in the 20th century. But I don't know where you're seeing people building new houses without offstreet parking of any kind. Such houses would be unsellable in today's market.
Nobody is building new single family homes in dense city centers; the land is too valuable for that. People build houses today in suburbs, and car commuting is the almost universal norm in those places.
Seriously, where do you get the idea that people are building tons of single family homes without off street parking? Your reply just seems completely disconnected from reality.
Here are some actual numbers. The market standard for a new single family home is a two car garage. It looks like only about 7-8% of houses are built without at least a carport, and a good number of those would still have a driveway. And that share has only been going down with time.
It's rare that I say this, but you're just completely and totally wrong here. If I'm being generous, maybe you're in a different country with a radically different housing market. But where I'm at, if someone said this to me in person I would assume they had just had a stroke.
Unfortunately I cannot parse what you're trying to say here at all. Maybe rewrite your original point and post it the way you're intending to. It's only a sentence or two. I can't imagine any interpretation of your correction that would make your original point, "the lack of dedicated/assigned/permitted parking is not restricted to apartments alone" true in anything other than a trivial sense. (Obviously you could find some rare houses built without parking, but they're the exception that proves the rule.)
The point still stands. 95%+ percent of new houses have off street parking. The lack of parking is almost almost exclusively an issue of apartments. It's not a problem for houses. It is almost exclusively a problem for apartments alone. There's no part off your comment that could be flipped around or read the other way that would make your original point true.
So no friend, the point certainly does not stand. It's fallen down dead.
Apartment access to charging infrastructure is so dependent on the specific property that it's hard to generalize across all of them. Plus, throw in the fact that some have access to chargers at work or at their regular grocery store that it's functionally pretty similar to having access to chargers at home.
I know someone who just moved into a rented garage where their assigned spot doesn't have any access to electricity (not even a normal outlet for level 1 charging) but where the ground floor has a public L2 charger in the same building, so that they can charge "at home" with a little bit of an added inconvenience of needing to move the car when it's done, so that they can leave it for others.
That is not the correct figure. I said 90% of the population has a place at their home to charge an EV. You posted a source asking what percentage of households have a garage or carport. These questions rhyme, but they are not the same.
It leaves out people who can park in driveways. It only considers covered parking. If you have any form of off street parking adjacent to your dwelling unit, you can run an extension cord to charge your EV. Additionally, households with parking will on average have more people per household than those without. (A family of four in a single family home vs one person living in a studio apartment. Housing units that hold larger numbers of people are also more likely to have access to personal off street parking.)
90% of the population has access to a place to charge an EV. It's really only an issue for the portion of the population of that lives in rental apartments, and that's only temporary until market forces or state initiatives solve that problem. You detailed why apartments have issues, but again, we're talking about just 10% of the population.
I charge at work, so for renters that is another option for covering the commute (and more). There's so many car parks without charging (and without solar roofs)... That's gotta change.
I do real estate photography, and I've been in a number of newly built homes, and every single one of them had a 50 amp plug for an EV charger in the garage. To me, that says way more than any poll or whatever does.
Realistically, how much does it increase your home electricity bill charging it? Is there enough of a drastic offset, even before the explosion in gas prices, or could it be considered roughly the same price?
How many km do you drive in a day? If you drive less than 50 km/day, I doubt you can reach $100/month no matter where you live. $50/month is very realistic. Electricity costs less than gasoline, distance-wise, almost everywhere.
It's the cost of running a clothes dryer overnight, but only if your charge is actually empty. Few people use their entire battery each day.
You'll have to look to your specific location and driving behavior, plus the specific statistics for your own vehicle.
But using US national averages of 14,000 miles (22,500 km) driven per year, $0.18 per kWh of electricity, and 30 kWh per 100 miles (112 MPGe or 3.33 miles per kWh): thats about $63 per month in electricity costs.
Using national average car fuel economy of 26 miles per gallon (9 liters per 100km), and an average price of $4/gallon, that same 14,000 miles per year would be a gasoline cost of about $180/month.
Not the OP, but I can share my experience after having solar for about four years.
I have a 33-panel system that cost around $28k after tax credits and rebates. I financed it for 12 years at 4%.
Before solar, my electric bill was around $260/month, and my solar loan payment ended up being about the same. The difference is that electricity rates have gone up over the last four years while my loan payment has stayed the same. During that time, I haven't paid for electricity consumed, but I do still pay monthly grid fees and service charges, which are around $6/month.
My utility doesn't pay for excess generation, but they credit the electricity I put back onto the grid against my usage. I have an EV that is driven about 20 miles a day, plus normal household electricity (AC, range+oven, etc). Charging at home every night only added about $10/month to my electric bill.
So for me, solar has been a good investment. New installations won't have the same tax incentives that I had, but depending financing and local utility generation policies, solar could still be break-even or better for some.
The panels were the least expensive part tbh. My area is sunny much of the year but we have had several power outages in winter and what I was originally seeking was redundancy, so I overspec'd the battery (the largest cost.) I also got a larger inverter than I strictly needed. So, if my goal was purely economic I could have reduced the spend by more than half. But for transparency 16kw of solar panels + 20kw inverter + 60kwh of batteries+ labor ran about €30k. This buys me assurance of being able to withstand significant outages to the grid any time of year. Since early June when the installation completed we've been totally off-grid. Ironically it has made me way more stingy with limiting my energy waste having a more detailed awareness of the impact various activities and appliances use. Ive got things automated so that it charges the car only during peaks when we have abundant excess production.
My advice would be to find a way to track your power usage. If you can monitor and graph it then you'll notice things like running the dishwasher takes close to 1kw. The more you know about your use the better you can determine how much solar you need to offset it, and also (the expensive part)'how much battery storage matters for you (for example overnight load.)
I drive my EV ~20 miles each day and charge at home overnight. It added roughly $10 to my monthly utility bill, but electricity cost in my area is lower than the national average. Overall, even with today's higher electricity costs, charging an EV at home is still likely to cost less than paying for gas for equivalent miles driven. That said, those savings will probably not offset the cost of purchasing a new EV.
I know a few EV owners that aren't able to charge at home, so they have to pay to use Tesla superchargers or other 3rd party charging stations; in those cases, they are paying a little less than they would for gas for equivalent miles driven, but it is much more expensive than charging at home.
It's much cheaper than gas in my area. I installed a hybrid heat pump water heater the same month I got my ev and the difference in electric canceled each other out (except now I don't pay for gas either so saving money overall).
As an owner of a hybrid I want to go full electric
If I could do wall power I could potentially run a cord from my back deck to my parking spot, if I'm allowed and if it would reach. I'd have to figure out how to prevent it from being a tripping hazard but that's minimal
I don't think I'd suffer range anxiety and some of the newer evs are sooo nice
should be doable, the cable on our charger is like 14' long and I kinda wish it wasn't SO long lol because we park snugged up to the garage, it's always way more slack than needed.
iirc the brand is emporia, they're a common charger w/ bluetooth connectivity so you can see how much you're paying / how fast it's charging etc., complete with detailed metrics every month.
my only wish is that I could ev-ize my old honda element.
I don't own a car but rent for special occasions. Recently got a petrol car after driving EVs for years, the experience is truly horrific in comparison. Driving EVs is a lot of fun
A couple, longtime friends of mine, retired one of their 2 diesels for an EV last year. They have a charger at home, and just this week ordered a replacement for the 2nd diesel. They've ordered a Corolla Hybrid. Not PHEV, plain Hybrid. I can't fathom why. I understand they may want to have a bit of ICE power there for hedging or whatever, but no plugin? They are in the process of building a new house, and it will have solar. I just don't get it. I live in a flat, and don't have convenient charging. I'm considering getting a new car (but not retiring my Skoda Octavia 1st gen, 480.000Km with 0 engine repairs except consummables, 3 years away from classic status), and my first choice right now is the KIA EV VAN. Convenient charging is my only problem right now.
A lot of EV people forget that most of us don't have $20,000 for a car, let alone a used one. The cheapest EV's as of today around me are $19,000 and have between 80k-120k miles on them. I bought my 2007 car for $5,500 11 years ago and i've put roughly $2200 in repairs into it, $1700 of that was for a complete suspension rebuild, so it would be much lower. My last car i had for 9 years, i put maybe $300 in repairs on it, and that was just brakes and fluids.
So i personally wont be amazed by an EV that has less maintenance, i would love to have the ability to charge/fuel up at home, and not wait at gas stations, that would be an awesome thing.
Once one of my ICE vehicles costs too much to repair, i hope EV's are more in the $10-15k range with lower miles. At that point the lack of gas would help offset the large investment up front. And yes, i know $15k is not considered a large investment for most EV drivers, but for those of us who don't make more than $20 an hour, it's a HUGE investment.
Dont forget your cost per mile of maintenance. ICE aint cheap to roll around forever. Emissions and tires/brakes will get ya. Idk, thought I had more substance when I started typing
Still too expensive for your average Joe, unfortunately.
Even with all the extra costs, I can still get an older ice car cheaper. I just bought an 07 Honda Fit for $1300, plus a few hundred for some suspension work I did myself. The thing runs like a champ, and I'm averaging 42.5mpg.
I wish I could have an EV, but it's just not cost effective yet. I plan to put another 100k on this Honda before reconsidering the market.
No, EV people don't forget, but the nature of posting publicly is that some readers are closer to the fence than others. You're the only who knows how close you are to that fence.
Yeah, but I should also offset the $5,500 by 11 years of (higher than normal) inflation, and also get more accurate numbers for the amount of money spent on gas ($25 seems a little low, doesn't it?).
I think it's fair to say that a used EV has a lower TCO than a used ICE car.
Sure there's more upfront cost and we have to consider the boots theory but if you can afford to buy a used EV, it's safe to say that it's cheaper in the long run.
My last car was an 04 I bought 7 years ago for 3k and put like 120-140k miles on. Did all the maintenance myself.
It's at 300k now and getting cranky and unreliable. But it owes me nothing. On top of that, my commute increased, and with gas prices being high, the 20-25mpg ain't cutting it.
I just found a beautiful deal, an 07, 190k miles, but only $1300. Right now I'm averaging 42.5mpg over several hundred miles of driving.
It needed a few hundred dollars of suspension work, but I did it myself. This is the way.
I want an EV more than anything. I can change at home but not work. Though there are free chargers downtown I could use on the weekends and evenings. But the used prices are still too high for someone like me.
I had a Volt for a couple years, loved it. Got it dirt cheap, it was broken. I fixed it. It got totalled one winter, a real shame. Can't afford to replace it.
Prices need to come WAY down before it's feasible for your average person. Even us who fix are own cars can't afford it, and we save tons!
What are people reading online? I have never seen anything about EV drivers going to gas. An EV is not cheap and most people I know stick with them even if terrible.
There is a section of the internet that is very loudly anti-EV. I think it's a MAGA-aligned movement. If you watch a lot of EV-related stuff on YouTube, as I have been doing in recent months, the "quitting EVs" videos will pop up eventually.
I mean I hate how silly and connected EVs are, I can see the hate to a degree (I am also too broke to buy one). But I have not seen people who have already bought one say they dislike it.
Oh for sure, I hate EVs due to them being new and shit nothing to do with being electric. I also hate new ICE vehicles for the same reason. I wanted an EV myself but short of making my own so far there is nothing I would ever own (maybe soon?).
I tried a few years ago for example to move to an EV motorcycle but found they don't make one that is not stupid, I need to ride 250km one way, spend the night and ride back. The route I take has zero service (like zero not just chargers but no gas, food or washrooms) stations for the last 190km so I would need about 300km range for it to work. Thought that would be doable since I don't need to go the speed of plaid and don't care about my 0-100km time, but nope, they don't make any EV bikes like that. They all are direct drive (no gearing) torque monsters built to go so fast your skin will come off. They even make some they claim are for adventures but have 150km range. The ones I looked at all have better city then highway efficiency do to them being geared like toys, They could have made one with a higher gear ratio (since the high rpms seem to require a stupid about of heat management at highway speeds) but noooooo, not one on the market is a real vehicle.
I have been looking into EVs myself recently, but the secondhand market here still prices me out for now. In a way, I am content with that as it means I can enjoy my aging 2005 Forester for longer. I have a feeling I will badly miss the manual transmission and low tech, low distraction feel when I eventually switch over. Anything from around the mid-2010s onwards seems to be when cars started going massively downhill in terms of the cabin experience.
My newest car is a 2002. I have a bunch of old shit since I would rather be fixing and driving 5 shitboxes then deal with one new car. Newest I would go is 2008 (that auto bailout fucked the quality of cars)
I will go back to gas for one reason only. I want a backup bush truck with little to no tech in it so if shit goes south I still have a vehicle that can't be shut down easily and fixed easily.
Just have to find the right Tacoma, T100, or 4Runner.
Well the best thing would be a diesel Hilux. But those are extremely hard to find.
Mostly just a dream. We have two vehicles already, the idea of throwing money towards a third vehicle and insurance on the off chance we live long in an apocalypse is fanciful.
An EV is a hell of a lot better apocalypse option than an ICE vehicle. The last thing you're going to want to be doing in such a scenario is wasting your little precious food turning it into biodiesel. Just get some solar panels and charge your car's battery that way.
You have a profound misunderstanding of how much panel area is required to power an EV. You don't need acres of solar panels. You don't need a large power grid. A carport with some solar panels and a clear view of the sky is more than enough to power a regular modern commute, let alone the limited amount of driving you would have to do in a collapse scenario.
And again, in what universe is having a few solar panels on your property more difficult that trying to make your own liquid fuels? In a collapse of civilization scenario, your highest and hardest challenge is just growing enough food to eat. And the only options for making your own liquid fuels are biofuels like ethanol and biodiesel. If you're trying to scrape together a subsistence diet in a collapse scenario, the last thing you would ever want to do is to turn your scarce calories into biodiesel.
I really do not understand your logic at all. In today's world, if you live in a single family suburban home, it is completely impossible for you to power your own ICE vehicle. Even if you dedicated your entire lot to growing soy or corn to make biofuel, there simply isn't enough surface area available. Hell, just putting solar panels on the land we currently use in the US to make corn ethanol would be enough to power the entire US vehicle fleet turned 100% to EVs. Meanwhile, millions of people currently drive EVs powered entirely by the solar arrays they have on their roofs. I know you don't need access to a large grid to power an EV, as millions of people are already powering their EVs off grid with just a few panels on their rooftops. Have you seriously never heard of this before?
Just how do you plan to keep your gas car running in a collapse scenario? There won't be anyone selling gas or diesel.
Look, I'm going to attempt to do the compassionate thing here. I'm going to assume you're acting in good faith but simply out of ignorance. I know it's long, but you really need to watch this video by technology connections. Please don't complain about the length. Be an adult, not a child. I'm trying to help you here. You need to watch this. It will clear up a lot of the misunderstandings you have about the practical realities of owning and powering EVs and the societal-level logistics involved.
I can forgive ignorance, but not wilful ignorance. I've now given you the tools to improve yourself, but now you will have to make the choice between being willfully ignorant or properly informed on this topic. I hope you can be a good person and make the right choice. My pessimistic side is guessing that you'll choose to remain comfortable in your ignorance, but hope springs eternal. Perhaps you can be saved.
That "article" is just a link to a 25 minute video. I'm not going to wade through a 25 minute video to find out what points they make.
But let's get real... The first thing people compare when they go from ICE to EV is how it affects their everyday lives. And immediately, plugging something in when you get home is far easier than going to a gas station.
Most drivers need short range vehicles for daily commutes. EV is just the far superior answer.
That's the first thing that everybody notices when they get their first EV. Once, I had to use an ICE rental car, and it just felt so silly going to the gas station.
I'm sure I'd like them but I love my manual transmission turbo 4. I turn 50 next year and my 2017 is still doing OK. With any luck, I can still get another manual transmission as the last car I personally drive. Hoping that by my late 60s self driving will be good and cheap enough to rely on.
The cheapest EV where I live costs about 30x more than the cheapest ICE car, and about 5x more than the average ICE car.
At the same time, it has half (or not even that) the range and most of the controls inside the touchscreen.
Almost everybody lives in apartments. No chargers in the underground garages or near outside parking spaces. I only know of 4 EV chargers in a radius of 2km around my home, and I live in my country's capital.
I think I'll stick to public transport and cycling. EVs are not the answer to any problem. All that work just to have marginally less ecologically destructive vehicles.
To me it just looks like smoking vs vaping. Improvement? I guess. Worth investing insane amounts of resources into? Yeah, probably not.
"30x more than the cheapest ICE car, and about 5x more than the average ICE car" - If you want anyone to take you seriously, you'll have to post models and prices.
Asstitties is completely correct about their analysis of the Polish used car market. They are nowhere near the tipping point of when it will make financial sense to purchase one.
I'm in Canada and the cheapest EV is less than 50k new, the cheapest new ice is 25-30k. It's definitely worth it, I'm in Toronto and level 2-3 chargers are plentiful, there will be less/different per km costs.
Yeah, you Canucks have been getting screwed by the Yanks on this subject long before Trump took the mask off. I'm sorry you live next to a bully. Hopefully Carney will improve things.
However that doesn't mean you can extrapolate North American experience to Europe, they're utterly different markets that have had the phase out of ICE written into law for years and have been actively pursuing it.
I'm sorry but your personal experience isn't relevant to a Canadian Polish example
Edit to correct, left error with strike through 'cos its funny (yes canadian experience is relevant to canada of course lol)
There's a ton of stock on very low cost older EVs here, I'd have an easy time finding something used that would work for me. I probably should have looking at some of these listings...
AI slop article with all the usual AI slop logic issues.
A subset of the issues because I don't have the time or the interest to poke every hole.
It doesn't address the initial apples to oranges / beater to brand new ridiculous comparison because it only considers prices of recently new BYD and Tesla (2024). Comparing a 15 year old car to a new car on price whether they are EV or ICE is just stupid
Your own AI slop link admits you can get older imports in from the rest of EU - usually Germany because of proximity and wealth. Something that used to be extremely common only a few decades ago and is only recently reducing most probably due to the increase in Poland's wealth. So saying older EV beaters are unavailable is straight up untrue.
The focus on battery health is both one-sided and ill-informed. Plenty of older ICE cars have massive costly issues - ask AUDI owners about timing belts and what that does to an ICE when they (very expensively) break. Furthermore you can easily check the health of a battery in almost all EVs - so no surprises on the motorway at 120km/hr when it goes bang and stops. You buy something that you know the state of (or dont buy it).
The focus on battery health is also wildly overcooked - battery issues almost always surface quickly (as they are usually build faults), and get fixed/replaced under warranty. Plenty of studies show that most EV batteries will last 150-300,000 miles/200-400,000 Km (links below) - longer than the expected life of most cars (average about 125,000 miles / 200,000Km before they are scrapped)
The REAL issue with comparing an EV beater with an ICE beater is that EVs have progress at a lightning fast rate over the last 20 years - early EVs like the leaf against a recent EV is like a model T against a Lamborghini. Whereas ICE changes in the last 20 are pretty small. A leaf has a shitty tiny battery compared to what you can get now - it is very definitely worth buying as new as possible, particularly given the mileage and hence the number of years you can reasonably expect to get
If you like I can generate an AI slop article to match yours and pull apart all the holes one by one - the problem with them always is you have to do multiple iterations before they stop saying "good input, I didn't dig into that, let me have a look" (actually that's not quite the wording Claude uses - hmm I instantly recognise it when I see it but can't yet play it back - oh well you get the gist)
It's only credible because you're taking a broken logic point and moving forward.
The broken logic is the comparison of a beater with brand new and an assertion that EV beaters are unavailable.
Your second link doesn't prove anything either way
First problem is I can't filter by price unless I'm registered, so I'm interested as to how you did so. Secondly the first link you provided states that the majority of beaters are sold on car lots not via auction (where you'll generally find the more expensive cars and if I'm not mistaken -edit missing words - that's exactly what you find on your second link). This link, in its own words is to facilitate the direct purchase of international cars from places like South Korea and the US, people aren't paying £3000 shipping to bring in a £1000 car. The same as grey market imports in the UK are always rare stuff you can't get locally.
You don't speak Polish, OK. You're Canadian, you have to have at least cursory french (it's mandatory right ?) do a search in Belgium and France for EVs under €3000 - that will give you a pretty solid proxy for what is available in Poland - for decades second hand cars went East to the former Warsaw Pact countries. That flow has slowed into Poland as Poles are much richer on average now, but it still exists and hence beater prices are fairly levelled across the EU bloc due to relatively free flow of goods (there are barriers but they aren't too bad)
(Scroll down the page it's at the bottom)
"PLC Auction provides direct access to international auctions of used vehicles (damaged, repaired, and undamaged)."
"One of the main risks when buying a vehicle from abroad is unforeseen expenses. The calculator on the website helps determine the final price of the car at the bidding stage. The calculation takes into account:
The lot price at the auction.
Auction fees and platform commission.
Delivery cost (logistics to the port and sea transportation).
Additional services (depending on the region and client preferences)."
No shit, people that wanted a boring car got a boring car and are satisfied with their boring car. Has anyone even claimed people are abandoning their EVs?
Not that I mean boring as a slight, many people see their car as just a utility. It gets them from point A to point B maybe to point C then back to A at the end of the day.
People that enjoy driving or "car culture" are going to have little interest outside of performance hybrids or electrified classics.
I'm not sure that's true. Maybe for like a Nissan leaf or something but the guys rolling around in cars with like the plaid performance packages and stuff are enjoying the road and teleporting over it. Getting motorcycle torque on demand in a sedan is pretty neat.
You're sort of just proving their point with that example. The people who own manual ICE cars enjoy a lot more about driving than just "put foot on pedal make go fast".
My hesitation with an EV other than the battery catching fire and having to burn itself out, would be driving long distance on vacation and being forced to charge my car instead of a getting a quick fill up and continuing my trip.
Some modern electric cars can get 500km on 30 minutes of charging from most available chargers. It might take a change to habits but range anxiety is much less of a concern than it once was.
As for the fire risk, yeah EV fires are dangerous but incredibly rare especially with second generation EVs. It's just highly publicized when it happens because it's a new technology and people don't trust new things... And probably a little bit of oil industry narrative pushing.
Ahh right I used cars when I should have said EVs in general, it's basically just BYD's newer cars. For trucks there's Chevy's Long Range trucks (they do it by charging 2 battery packs in parallel as I understand it), Rivian also gets close at around 400 - 450km.
That being said most NA domestic options are costly even with incentives and depending on where you're located BYD might be a non-option.
Depends on your thoughts on "long distance", but with a bit of planning, you can plan some fun stops to tack on a couple hundred miles of range. A round of indoor putt putt, shopping, a meal, or whatever. I like to stop every three hours or so anyways.
What ticks me off is that the price of "fast" charging feels exploitative. It's literally more expensive than gas despite being less convenient and less ubiquitous. I just spent about $34 for 202 miles of range. My ICE vehicle would have been $23ish for that same mileage.
Sorry for the rant. I say all this to say, it's a bit intimidating at first, but long trips are still doable and getting better and better with the addition of more fast charging spots. Hopefully, competition starts bringing the price down.
Long trip charges and waking up with 16% battery a Monday morning ahead of work sucks. I’ve been dealing with it for about 4 years already thanks to my work provided EV6.
Still, I would not go back to ICE. It’s a temporary trade off really.
With the range of modern EVs, you're either stopping to rest long enough to charge it, or you're a reckless driver that should have your license taken away. On road trips, you should stopping every 200-300 miles or so. You should take a 20-30 minute break every 4-6 hours to rest. You're piloting thousands of pounds of metal screaming down the highway at superhuman speeds. You need rest. You should be taking breaks on long road trips. Just stop and get a meal while you wait for your car to charge. This isn't that complicated.
I don't doubt the stat, and it's encouraging. But as a point of reference I will be one of the 6%. The depreciation on my current EV is substantial enough that it makes sense for me to consider an ICE car (one that depreciates very little, likely used) for my next car.
Not necessarily. I've had my [used] EV sedan 48 months, and it's depreciated $23,000 in that time. That's $480/month in depreciation alone. I wasn't paying that in gasoline even in my relatively gas-guzzling 4Runner I had before (a vehicle famous for how little it depreciates.) I was spending about $350 in gas per month with the 4Runner.
I'm not saying it was a bad move that I traded in the 4Runner for the used EV; at the time I needed the lower monthly outlay of cash more than I needed car equity. But boy does it sting seeing that $23k and counting.
Tesla Model Y. Granted, I'm comparing the price I paid (CarMax) to the current CarMax value, so in reality it's less than $23k. And I put a fair number of miles on the car, so that's an issue too. I also missed out on any of the EV credits (bad timing on my part), and the loss of the credit definetly reduced the value of the car.
But my point is that, despite all the great things about EVs and the societal and environmental impact the switch to electric has had, for me personally I'm extremely turned off at the relatively high depreciation of all EVs. When I say my next car will likely be a gasoline powered car, it's not because I don't believe in the future of electric vehicles. It's a) a used small economical gas powered hatchback with low depreciation may (at least for me) offer a lower total cost of ownership than a comparable EV, and b) all new cars and all EVs feel like spaceships to me, and I just want a car.
That's a good point. I guess what I'm getting at is that while averages are important metrics, the average EV depreciation isn't applicable as I've yet to find an EV with low depreciation (that would match the vehicle I'd like to be my next car.) That, and the spaceship thing I'm totally over. I'd jump on the Slate truck if that form factor would fit my family.
I totally don't want any of my comments to be taken as I'm anti-EV. I'm most certainly not. Just trying to give my perspective on why I'm personally stilll looking at a gas powered car.
5 or 6 years. But I don't typically buy cars new either. I prioritize reliability and safety as much as strict dollars and cents.
Depreciation doesn't matter when you drive a car into the ground.
That's not quite true. Even if you "drive it into the ground" (which I don't like to do), there's still the amount-paid / years-you-drive-it equation that holds.
If you want to prioritize safety, you'd basically need to drive an EV at this point. The low CG of the battery pack and its added structure do provide significant benefits when it comes to roll over resistance and side impact safety.
I am with you. I leased an EV so I could see if it made sense to purchase. The amount its already depreciated is just insane. On top of, I'm a bit more rural and don't have many charging options if I want to do a trip. We have to use my partner's ICE car for any car trips. I can also only trickle charge at home, which makes it harder. I've already decided I'm going to buy a used hybrid when I'm done with my lease. Makes the most sense at this point in time, for me at least.
The number of people downvoting me (and you) is disturbing. Neither of us are anti-EV, we’re only explaining why its not working for us personally. And we’re speaking from experience, not simply saying anti-EV things.
I think that EVs have come a long way but might require a couple more generations to sort themselves out. A friend of mine once said that tech usually needs three generations to mature and cited light bulbs as an example. Gen 1 was incandescent, provided light but was hot and costly. Gen 2 was florescent, not hot, less expensive but had some nasty chemicals inside. Gen 3, now with LEDs are cheap, cool, and clean.
I think EVs are somewhere at Gen 2.
Edit: Just to note, I'm more of a bike and public transit person than ANY kind of car.
There were folks who held out on electric lighting until incandescent. The first widely used electric light was the carbon arc lamp, invented in the 1800s (as in, 1800-1809) by Humphrey Davey, and put into practical use in the 1870's. It creates an intense broad spectrum light including more than a little UV. Not really suitable for home lighting though often used in outdoor spaces. Per Technology Connections, incandescent electric light was praised for successfully mimicking the appearance and form factor of gas light.
Oh by the way: adoption tended to follow infrastructure. A few rich people would electrify their houses as a flex, but most folks adopted electric light as their towns electrified. This started in major cities first and then filtered out to the sticks. East coast cities in the US were lit with electricity before the dawn of the 20th century, and there were people lighting their homes with kerosene well into the 1950's.
It turns out that electric devices aren't that appealing to folks who don't have a suitable place to plug them in. looks directly into camera
I don't know about that. When I was a kid and we were still on incandescent light bulbs a filament bulb would be maybe £25 (or whatever your local currency is, the actual values don't really matter). By the time LED bulbs had come out that price had gone down to maybe £3 for a filament bulb, but LEDs were about £30 so a 10 x cost increase. But it was worth it because the LED bulb lasted more or less forever.
Most EV cars are around double the price of an equivalent ICE car, that a 2 x cost increase. But there is a lot less of an immediate benefit to an electric vehicle over a traditional engine vehicle. The fuel is cheaper, but the car is more expensive and fuel prices haven't risen enough yet to really cancel that out. Clearly we need to start a few more wars in the middle East.
Well there aren't really any generations because they're all basically the same thing, it's mostly just regulations and common sense that need to be worked out. For example the Nissan leaf was a truly stupid vehicle in every way, it used a weird proprietary charger that nothing else supported, and it had the storage capacity of an electric toothbrush.
Later EVs were considerably better vehicles, but I wouldn't really call that Gen 2 because all that really changed was that a standard had been identified for charges (not even an international standard, just a few local ones) and a decent amount of batteries had been put in the car. But essentially the same technology.
Gen 1 was incandescent, provided light but was hot and costly. Gen 2 was florescent, not hot, less expensive but had some nasty chemicals inside. Gen 3, now with LEDs are cheap, cool, and clean.
Imagine sitting out the use of electric light bulbs from 1900 until 2010, just in the hopes that one day they'd be better.
News flash: your "gen 1" light bulb was better than kerosene lamps from the beginning.
Also there were many generations of each of those. Carbon filament incandescent sucked. Eventually incandescent found a way to be longish lasting and white enough. It was dirt fucking cheap by the end as it's main benefit if you didn't mind replacing them every month.
Gen 1 fluorescent was the long flickery bars that only saw use in offices. It got slightly better over time. Then early compact fluorescent bulbs still were kinda greenish and flickery and couldn't handle the rapid cycling a closet for example might experience, much less outdoor conditions. They lasted longer than incandescent but were always going to be more expensive than it and had the worst color rendering of any major electric general use home lighting technology.
Then LEDs are a whole other thing. For a long time you could have any color you want as long as it's red, then amber was an option. Later green came around, before much later blue did. Once there was blue we could make white using either RGB addition or phosphors and slowly moved towards LED light bulbs, which at first were fine. Like, yeah early LED bulbs were better than incandescent or fluorescent, but they were expensive, less durable, and didn't have as good of light quality as we'd expect today.
These technologies are as different from each other as gas cars to hydrogen cars to electric cars.
Also gen 1 of electric cars is over a hundred years past. And if that doesn't count it's the 90s EV that people loved but GM destroyed all they could of them. In that framework Gen 3/2 is the early Nissan Leaf era. We're well into gen 3 of EVs at the very earliest.
262 Comments
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social · 105 pts · 3d
As an EV owner, I have a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to people's opinions on EVs here. Many will approach me to genuinely ask about the car, the range anxiety, recharge, etc because they are curious and thinking on getting one.
Then there's "the others". People who for some weird reason hate EVs (especially now that gas is over 2€/lt) will approach me to throw hate on them parroting the usual silly remarks about battery degradation, range, lack of "engine sound"... And it's funny because I never open up a conversation about my EV, you won't see me trying to forcefully talk about it... so when I tell them that I don't care if they like EVs or not, they get even more pissed because they just want to shit on them and hope that I get upset or something? Idk, in Italy there's this kind of people who need to show others how noisy their car is and how manly they are for driving a car that is noisy.
grrgyle@slrpnk.net · 63 pts · 3d
Oh how I wish that was only an Italian thing
calliope@retrolemmy.com · 10 pts · 3d
I find this fascinating because no one has ever said anything about my car. I was actually worried they would before I got an EV, because of stories like this.
But I’ve had the car for six years now and I have only had pleasant interactions about it.
They are extremely common here though, so that might be partly why.
In fact, once I thought an elderly man was going to ask something snarky. He said “hey, can I ask about your car?” and then he very kindly asked about what the brake calipers were, because he literally had no idea. Then he said “it’s a really pretty car” and then I felt mentally bad for doubting the sweet old guy.
thatkomputerkat@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 9 pts · 3d
Living in the inland northwest US I’ve never had anyone approach me to talk about EVs one way or another. I’ve been driving a Kia Niro EV for a year now. Not even the few times I’ve been into North Idaho.
I don’t think I’d be bothered too much by some EV hater trying to be an ass either though given I’m not the one eating shit at the gas station. Charging from flat to full would cost me $6.40 at home… where I essentially do all my charging at 10¢ / kWh
Gonzako@lemmy.world · 8 pts · 3d
Have ya see much difference between Chinese EVs and European ones? I'd like to get me a BYD but it seems very expensive here.
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social · 12 pts · 3d
In price? To have a car that had a similar amount of equipment than my atto3, the average difference between the atto and the european brands was around 6-8k euros. And that's just considering the ADAS (like 360° cam, park sensors, autoswitching beams, etc). If I wanted an euro car with all the other "silly" things like the opening roof, the heated wheeldrive and seats, etc, we were going to almost 10k more expensive.
n7gifmdn@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 3d
The U.S. & Canada put a 100% tariff on Chinese EVs. But with the trade war with the USA in full swing hopefully we'll i state free trade with China.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 2d
Canada dropped the tariffs on 50,000 cars. Most of them as Chinese made Teslurs.
UpperBroccoli@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 3d
I guess this is a reality similar to that of most vegetarians or vegans....
eupraxia@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 5 pts · 2d
Was just about to say the same. It's a great source of unwelcomed conversations alongside queerness and toe shoes.
kestrel7_7@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
Oh well toe shoes can go to hell, that makes sense.
eupraxia@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 2d
Oh no, shoes shaped like feet! Won't someone think of the children??
benjirenji@slrpnk.net · 5 pts · 2d
Now you know how vegetarians and vegans feel. Most don't bring it up (I only bring it up now in this context), but still get pulled into discussions about it.
Bluewing@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Remember, you don't need to engage. You get pulled in because you want to be pulled in.
benjirenji@slrpnk.net · 2 pts · 2d
I'm usually the one who talks the least on the table when it comes up. I'm really not interested discussing my personal choices. Some people really are though.
wyldrstallyns@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 4 pts · 3d
As I've grown older, I've come to realize that many people (too many, IMHO) are not only only somewhat aware* of cultural stereotypes but also seem to willingly, if not proudly adopt them as a vital ingredient to their persona. Like some vibe coders/script kiddies copy-pasting themselves an identity from barely-skimmed "data" they got from a friend of a friend who "totally knows what they're talking about, bro." 🙄🤷🏼♂️
*at least, that's what they'll tell you, ofc.
teslekova@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 3d
For some people the politics or aesthetics of their choice of car outweighs the economics or convenience.
I am not rich enough to be one of those people.
Malica@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 3d
Ah the South European Uncle™, I know him well
taiyang@lemmy.world · 47 pts · 3d
We rented an Ionic 5 for the weekend and I will be going back to gas because... uh, it's rented.
Real talk, though, we're trying to find a good EV because it is better. I don't particularly like the Ionic 5, but that's mostly a hatred for crossovers than anything; also the severe lack of clicky buttons and stuff like automatic mirror dimming that isn't working right. Ugh.
I just wish we had more options in the States, especially without the touch screen nonsense.
Edit to complain: finished our trip and EV charging stations are so hit or miss. People worry about range but that's not it-- it's the fucking apps, flex time pricing and 350 kW chargers only putting out 50 kW for mysterious reasons. This shit needs some serious regulation in the US, fucking yikes.
decended_being@midwest.social · 16 pts · 3d
I have a 2019 Nissan Leaf and it was manufactured at the perfect in-between time of still having physical buttons, without the surveillance tech inside, while also having the 'basic' fancy features like Android Auto, backup cam, etc.
I think ideally, I would have liked an EV conversion kit for my 2006 Scion xB, but it wasn't in the cards at the time.
It does seem like the physical buttons are making a comeback.
Edited small typos
taiyang@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 3d
Here's hoping. I'd look into even a used option like that, but I'm also hoping we get new battery tech in the next year or two. Not that I mind 350W charger speeds, though.
socsa@piefed.social · 10 pts · 3d
It is extremely annoying that here I am nearly 8 years later, and the Model 3 is the still the only real choice if you want a compact sedan EV. I don't want to buy another one, but for the love of God, every other option sucks, is impossible to get, or costs $30k more than a Model 3
bss03@infosec.pub · 4 pts · 3d
Yeah, would prefer my Volt be a sedan instead of a hatchback. I've not planned to replace it yet, but I hope there are more that one manufacturer offering EV sedans in the U.S. when I do go to replace it.
hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de · 0 pts · 2d
Would a Kia EV6 or a Jaguar I-Pace be options?
sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 2d
Both the EV6 and the I-Pace are crossovers, more wagon-like than sedanlike. And the I-Pace was discontinued in 2024.
In terms of a true sedan, the Polestar 2 (also discontinued), the BMW i4, and the Lucid Air are options, but they're significantly more expensive than a Tesla Model 3.
hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de · 1 pts · 2d
I want aware that the car has to be brand new as OP never stated that.
Call me a Heather but if the EV6 isn’t sedan-like enough, the Tesla 3 isn’t either.
A Lucid Air plays in a whole different league as It probably beats the Tesla S. However there’s a risk the company itself might be discontinued.
There’s a bunch of Chinese brands that deliver - they might not be available in the US or are tariffed out of budget range.
sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 1d
No, but I'm pointing out that cars that have been discontinued will not increase in number, so they'll be harder to find on the used market over time.
Like the parent comment, I've rented a Hyundai Ioniq 5 a few times, and liked the way it drove. But it is so ugly I'd never buy it for myself. The EV6 is nice, and I agree it's quite close to a sedan.
The Polestar 2 is great. Drives like a sedan. Undisputably a sedan. But its manufacturer is in a weird regulatory limbo, there weren't a lot of 2s sold, and I personally find the clicking of the turn signal annoying. Also a bit expensive for its specs, even on the used market.
I think we'll eventually see Kia/Hyundai/Genesis, Toyota/Lexus, and maybe Volkswagen and BMW compete in this sedan space with new cars. But for now, most car manufacturers selling in the US seem to be focused on SUVs and crossovers.
BillSchofield@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 3d
I leased an Ioniq 5 SEL for three years and loved it (other than it being an SUV).
When the lease ran out, I bought a used 2024 Ioniq 6 SE which has 360 mile range and almost every feature of the SEL. It was super cheap and it suits me even better than the Ioniq 5.
It's probably worth checking out if you like EVs.
taiyang@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 3d
That was my thought, the Ionic 6 looks solid and more like my Ford Fusion Hybrid I've been driving for a decade.
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social · 8 pts · 3d
One of the reasons I got my BYD was because of the clicky buttons. Yes, I have the big touchscreen, but all the car controls have a clicky button that I can feel and touch without looking at a screen. Hell, even for the things that don't have a clicky button (like A/C temperature) you only need to swipe up or down with three fingers on any part of the screen to adapt it so there is nothing you need to find in the screen to drive the car.
DireTech@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 3d
I’m honestly surprised anyone rents electrics. I love owning one, but recharging would be obnoxious when traveling to a new place and having to juggle half a dozen different charging apps and a charger probably requiring you to go to a Walmart and sit for half an hour.
taiyang@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 3d
Can confirm, but we wanted a challenge and it hasn't been that bad with just one app. We even had terrible luck and had to change plans and find another spot (diesel truck overturned, which is ironic when gas is the reason your EV trip got sidetracked lol).
I imagine having reliable charging at home and work makes it braindead.
hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de · 4 pts · 2d
You only discover the absurd insanity of the charging market once you drive an EV.
Here you’ll stop at charging stations that proudly state they got incentive money (aka your tax €) from the EU and then ask for >1€ per kWh - unless you are a subscriber, then it’s 15% less. If you are a paid subscriber the rebate is more than 50%. Then you check the roaming service of one of your many subscriptions - it’s 2€/kWh.
It’s like streaming but way
more exploitativeshittier. I think this needs needs government regulation and companies abusing EU incentives should pay back every cent including compound interest immediately.bss03@infosec.pub · 3 pts · 3d
More chargers are getting tap-to-pay every day, so it is getting easier.
Also, while I doubt electric charging will be as fast as gas within this generation of vehicles (the required voltage would be rather insane), the EV guys I see online suggest charging to 75% or so because it gets you out of there in half the time. It means slightly more frequent stops, but also makes them not much longer than a bathroom break and snack run.
DireTech@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 3d
Oh really? That’s good to hear. The requiring an account and app thing was such nonsense.
Made a road trip 2 years ago and the charge time itself was never an issue, it was more the limited chargers and people on slow charging older EVs keeping them tied up for so long.
bss03@infosec.pub · 1 pts · 3d
I was on AC / L2 chargers (my Volt), so it might not apply directly to DC charging but last weekend both the chargers I used and the DC charger I accidentally parked next to, took tap to pay, though one I ended up using did have an additional fee for tap-to-pay so I used my ChargePoint account. The week before that the DC charger that I just happened upon (and was disappointed didn't do AC charging) actually supported both tap-to-pay and the older mag-stripe-swipe.
All those stations were in MO. I was driving AR-IN and back.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · -4 pts · 3d
When I see complaints like this, I read it as, "I'm a reckless driver who should have their license taken away." If you're taking long road trips and not stopping every 4-6 hours for a 20-30 minute break, you shouldn't be allowed to own a vehicle at all. You're a danger to yourself and everyone around you.
DireTech@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 2d
That’s an incredibly weird take. How did you get to that from a complaint about how hard it was to find a decent charger?
My example wasn’t even about a long drive, just being in a town with only 3 high speed chargers and over the course of a week I got to drive well out of my way and sit and wait for a turn at the Walmart twice. If I’d had a gas car I could’ve filled up at the many many stations nearby so it was an example of why I still wouldn’t rent one when traveling. Hell lookup driving to Yellowstone for an easy example of a route with limited chargers for the large number of summer tourists.
Did you miss the part where I love actually owning one?
hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de · 4 pts · 2d
Maybe it’s an LLM bot set to act contrarian?
An EV that drives for 6h and is charged up in 30min? This has to be an hallucination.
It would be great to have this kind of range though.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 2d
This hurts my soul.
kestrel7_7@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Hi, I routinely drive 12+ hours only stopping for gas and bathrooms. It’s fun, and what I do for vacations, and I will never stop. I’ve been doing this since I was a teenager and have never been in a car crash because I’m an absurdly safe driver compared to most people on the roads. I think you have a really extreme view of what safe car driving looks like.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 2d
I assume you also grew up in Lake Wobegon, where all the children are above average.
boonhet@sopuli.xyz · 4 pts · 3d
I test drove the ioniq 5 when it came out and its problem, to me, wasn't even that it's a stupid tall hatchback (barely a crossover even). It's that the suspension setup makes it both uncomfortable AND unsporty. No idea if they changed it in later models, but they wouldn't have fundamentally changed the entire setup anyway, only fine-tuning.
When the test drive was over, I sat back into my W211 and that was much more comfortable. Way slower and sluggish, but it was smoother on rough roads, and yet I actually felt where the grip was when going into a corner fast. That car was manufactured in 2003, the Ioniq 5 was a 2020 or 2021 model.
I ended up getting a lightly used W205 C-Class instead, staying with diesel. It was half the price of a brand new Ioniq 5 (since those weren't available used)
But I'm not trying to tell you to buy an ICE vehicle like I did back then, I'm just saying that a lightly used executive car that still has warranty is going to be significantly nicer to drive than a brand new budget car. At the end of the day, you're looking at EVs, battery warranty is 8 years anyway. Get a 2-3 year old one, sell it when the warranty is starting to end (degradation isn't a real issue anymore, but sudden battery cell death can still be).
taiyang@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Your part about the suspension just clicked for me why it was bothering me so much. It was really more bumpy than I thought it would be, compared to what I normally drive. It was more like when I drove a mini cooper, tiny wheel bumpy ride.
But yeah, a slightly used but good car is probably my best bet right now, or just hang on one or two more years to see if there's a breakthrough in batteries or we get Chinese imports, basically.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
Hell, it's hard to find subcompacts here at all. I'm willing to abandon my U-turn machines for electric when my car dies, but I'd really rather not. Fuck I love having a miniscule turning radius
k0e3@lemmy.ca · 27 pts · 3d
Uhh on what sites? Every driver I talk to online or otherwise have nothing but praise for EV.
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world · 24 pts · 3d
Yes. Drivers.
But the online mediasphere is chock-full of EV haters regurgitating propaganda about how they’re worse for the environment, the posters suddenly care about child labor in foreign countries, and then there’s the regressive mentally 14 year old tools who can’t handle a car that doesn’t spew noise and exhaust everywhere to make people look at them because that’s a real car. But none of them have owned an EV.
I’m a big car fan, and IMO, the majority of car fans are backwards and stubborn. They can’t stand the idea of EV, they have to have the ability to make stupid power with lots of noise to drive to the mall. Thing is there’s room for both EV and ICE cars. They need to get a grip and stop hyperbolizing that it’s a binary choice, ICE is going to be around for a good while longer.
bss03@infosec.pub · 11 pts · 3d
Eh, maybe this is just my opinon / hot take, but I think we really gotta stop burning petroleum and petroleum products, especially at the individual consumer level.
teslekova@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 3d
Yeah, but we can't switch everyone over immediately. Don't worry, the trend is there, and it's good; soon the majority of new cars sold will be EVs, based on what I see. They're just cheaper.
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social · 7 pts · 3d
They need their emotional support vehicle to be noisy because otherwise they are not "real machos". Driving a silent EV is for girlies, not for realmen™
krashmo@lemmy.world · 10 pts · 3d
EVs are fast as fuck without even trying. There's nothing macho about watching an Ioniq 5 blow your gas guzzling street racer off the line.
dgriffith@aussie.zone · 5 pts · 3d
My Volvo EX30 does the quarter mile in 7.5 seconds, and it only takes that long because it reaches its 180km/hr speed limiter before the end of the quarter mile.
And if you're not stomping on the go pedal it's also perfectly fine coasting around shopping centre car parks.
Aaaand it costs me $14.50 for a complete 0-100 percent charge at home, which it can do overnight after taking 10 extra seconds out of my day to plug it in. And then I'm good for another week or so of around-town driving.
But yeah, I can imagine if I had to haul 9000 pounds and 8 people back and forth across the entire continent every week like your typical regular car owner, yeah, I can see how it might be difficult to own an EV.
krashmo@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 3d
Mine isn't quite that fast as it is a 3 row SUV. Nobody expects it to be as fast as it is though. It's pretty fun to surprise people.
Cheap fillups are the best part. I have solar panels on my house as well so I get paid to drive mine lol
People do have a point about vehicle telemetry and complexity but that's not unique to EVs or even vehicles in general. I do my best to avoid that kind of thing but it's difficult when our whole economy revolves around stealing people's data. You do the best you can in an imperfect world.
dgriffith@aussie.zone · 3 pts · 2d
Pretty much all the torque is there on demand at whatever speed you happen to be doing, that's the biggest difference I think.
There's no changing down a gear or two to spool up the engine to get the acceleration. You want to go a little faster, you just press the pedal.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2d
Real men need stepladders to enter their vehicles.
johnyreeferseed@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 pts · 2d
I legit once saw an old guy stumble over to his giant ass pickup, physically struggle to pull out a step stool from the back seat and then proceeded to climb into the driver's seat. It was legit terrifying.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2d
Mechanics now need stepladders to look under the hood. It's all incredibly fucking stupid.
inari@piefed.zip · 12 pts · 3d
Facebook, according to the original headline. But I changed it because I knew I'd be getting 5 different comments from people getting hung up on the 'Facebook' part.
lobut@lemmy.ca · 10 pts · 3d
I've seen YouTube videos of those car sales guys talking to customers and then regretting getting an EV because of the distance/range and lack of charging stations and stuff.
How many of videos are real and all that, I have no idea. Also, most of those customers are rolling negative equity and stuff so not a great judgment.
ramble81@lemmy.zip · 5 pts · 3d
There’s a car site for leaks and industry news called Auto Spies that just constantly shits on EVs. They used to be good for breaking new car info, but now they have a massively right slant on everything.
Killer57@lemmy.ca · 23 pts · 3d
I'm the owner of a Mustang Mach-E, and I will never go back to gas, I spend between $0 - $20 CAD/month charging my vehicle.
GladiusB@lemmy.world · 15 pts · 3d
I have a Chevy Bolt EUV. I will also never go back. I need to get a bigger SUV because kids grow and their equipment for sports is out of hand. But it works for now.
eggpl4nt@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 3d
My friend got a Telluride EV and she loves it. She has kids and so she's got lots of stuff to carry around. It's a huge car; I rode in it once and felt amazed how we're at a point where even massive SUVs can be powered purely by electricity. She was especially appreciative that she chose the EV option after gas prices spiked due to Trump's Iran meddling.
hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de · 3 pts · 2d
I love how they implemented the door handles on the Match-E. Overall a nice car.
HeartyOfGlass@piefed.social · 22 pts · 3d
... What was I doing, again?
bss03@infosec.pub · 4 pts · 3d
tries to check history
navigates to profile page and reads it
What's my name again!?
Funkt4st1c@lemmy.world · 22 pts · 2d
My EV is quite possibly the most poorly planned decision of my life.
I live in an apartment and cant charge it overnight. Its a leaf so it only has l2 slow charging and Chademo charging; i live in the US so it doesnt exist -- an adapter costs $750 minimum. I charge for 3 hours every week to go a maximum of 70 miles at a time. When its cold out, thats 4 or 5.
I don't regret it at all, unironically, genuinely.
laranis@lemmy.zip · 9 pts · 2d
There's something to be said for not going to gas stations. Ever.
Funkt4st1c@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2d
Yeah, but my version of that is sitting in a dead parking lot for 2 hours to spend $3 on 60 miles with my j1772 connection. I cant wait to have $750 to spend on my stupid computer adapter so i can instead spend 15 minutes at an electric gas station
SethDove@lemmy.world · 20 pts · 3d
I have said it a million times. Whenever I drive a car with an internal combustion engine it feels so incredibly primitive.
Funkt4st1c@lemmy.world · 18 pts · 2d
Loud, too much vibration, slow start up, doesnt even sound like a spaceship
wanderinglurk@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 2d
Monke brain like vroom vrroom
Jokes aside, car manufacturers figured consumers would miss that feeling enough to install software in EVs to mimic it.
ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml · 3 pts · 2d
Yamaha went the extra mile and patented a fake engine for electric bikes that moves and moves air just like a real engine, except it generates negative work.
I hate everything about it and everyone who had a hand on it.
kestrel7_7@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 2d
I was so excited for EVs to be quiet. The spaceship noises make me so sad. Like finally, we figured out a way to make a car that didn’t make too much noise, and we legally added in stupid scifi sounds. These neurotypicals ruin everything.
Funkt4st1c@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 2d
Ive definitely sneaked up on people, even with the added spaceship sound. Its 100% for safety and honestly too quiet.
That being said a lot of hondas have like an angelic hum that I really hate
Flying_Hellfish@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
I think most of that is due to regulation, it is so you can't sneak up on someone like Andy in his Prius. Early Model 3s don't even have a speaker to make the sound so they still don't, a friend of mine has one and it doesn't make any woowoo noises
Bytemeister@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
It was the smell for me. They all smell like horrible chemicals, I was just blind to it until I spent a few weeks away from one.
Theoriginalthon@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1d
Not so much primative, just the peak of an outdated technology, nostalgic in a way, like when you get on a steam train
Sektor@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Why?
cristian64@reddthat.com · 20 pts · 3d
However, 100% of fossil-based vehicle drivers will end up driving EVs.
baggachipz@sh.itjust.works · 12 pts · 3d
Except for the ones who park in the garage, close the door, and leave the engine running to escape the pain of existence.
BarbudoGrande@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 3d
Finally! Someone paying attention to what we're really losing with EVs. What am I supposed to asphyxiate on non-ionizing radiation? That could take years!
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social · 4 pts · 3d
If you drive a cyber truck you can just spray some water on it and the poorly isolated battery will probably catch fire. If you want to die from the fumes or cooked it's your pick.
You can also get yourself killed by activating the self driving on a tesla or, even better, by having it activate itself in the worst moment to kill you.
BarbudoGrande@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 3d
I thought the Teslas only run over children. I'm way too big for those britches.
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social · 3 pts · 3d
No, no, you got it wrong. If you activate the self driving while driving a tesla it will probably kill you (while trying to run over a kid) by hitting something hard, catching fire, blocking you inside and cooking you alive.
BarbudoGrande@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 3d
That seems like a lot of effort. I wonder if I could just get the built-in Grok to roleplay the scenario into existence.
Tyrq@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 3d
Just keep a gas generator around for such an occasion, then you can use it anywhere in the house, not just the garage! Think of the possibilities
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2d
Around me , people use gas BBQs inside during a two hour power failure.
late_pessimistic@slrpnk.net · 2 pts · 3d
You okay mate?
baggachipz@sh.itjust.works · 5 pts · 3d
Yeah but morbid jokes are funny. :)
hash@slrpnk.net · 6 pts · 2d
Hey! A privleged few will go for ebikes + transit.
artyom@piefed.social · 20 pts · 3d
But I read this online so, I should forget this too?
glibg10b@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 1d
It's a podcast
artyom@piefed.social · 0 pts · 1d
Ohhh so only believe what you hear on podcasts?
glibg10b@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 21h
You can also believe images and videos, as long as they don't have any text on them for you to read
betanumerus@lemmy.ca · 12 pts · 3d
But do stay alert. O&G and combustion car manufactures are spending billions on propaganda to make you change your mind.
Even mechanics, gas station attendants, and car dealers will spin records to make EVs look bad and turn you into their next customer.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 3d
I'll buy an EV when I find a reputable manufacturer that isn't microtransacting or requires to have a "smart" system installed in it.
same goes for any non-ev built after 2013.
I want a car, not a device.
krashmo@lemmy.world · 17 pts · 3d
Sounds like your next car is going to be a bike then
fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net · 12 pts · 3d
Electric bikes are awesome
krashmo@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 3d
Indeed they are but even if I lived somewhere with decent bike infrastructure I wouldn't want to commute on one in the winter.
grrgyle@slrpnk.net · 5 pts · 3d
My bike runs on tofu haha.
But real, e-bikes are cool. Kind of jealous when I'm going up a hill and see someone just like gliiiide past me. But then I do also like the free endorphins so it's a balance.
fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net · 3 pts · 3d
The good ebikes let you dial in the exact level of assistance you want
grrgyle@slrpnk.net · 1 pts · 2d
That sounds cool and expensive!
fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net · 2 pts · 2d
Having a few different levels is standard these days
Pringles@sopuli.xyz · 4 pts · 3d
I bought one in February and it’s absolutely amazing. I live next to a mountain range and to just bike into the mountains and forests is incredibly nice. My buddy instantly got jealous and then bought one himself, so we now quite often go for trips. I had wanted one for years and had been saving money to buy one for about 18 months. Zero regrets, even though I have had a ton of injuries already, including a broken arm.
krashmo@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 3d
The biggest downside is that they're expensive. I did an ebike conversion on my old mountain bike and that was pretty easy. It works really well too. Buying a nice 5-10 year old bike of your preference and converting it is definitely the way to go if you want to save some money.
fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net · 2 pts · 3d
I did that with a dirt cheap Walmart bike and I'm having so many problems, all of them with the dirt cheap Walmart bike parts, the actual e-bike kit has never given me a single problem.
krashmo@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 3d
Yeah I could imagine that would cause some issues. Those bikes don't seem to be the best quality. I suppose the bright side is that there's no reason you couldn't find a used bike somewhere and move the motor and battery to that bike instead. You can't do that with any of the manufactured e bikes that I'm aware of
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 3d
or it won't be manufactured after 2013.
TrumpetX@programming.dev · 6 pts · 3d
Check out the Slate, I have it preordered. Electric, and dumb.
blitzen@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 3d
If (and when) Slate makes a vehicle type that fits my needs I'll consider it. For now, a two-door two-seater (basically) doesn't cut it for my family.
nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz · 1 pts · 2d
For ~5k more you can get the SUV version, the real issue is the range imo
blitzen@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 2d
It’s not really an SUV version, it’s just a second row of seats. Still two doors, still 2wd. Wouldn’t work for my family.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 2d
Good luck with a new vehicle from a new company.
blitzen@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 3d
For real. I love the propulsion tech of EV; hate the in-car experience of every one I've been in (and to be fair, most new ICE cars have the same problem.)
My next car will likely be a [used] ICE, not because it's not EV, but because it's not a spaceship.
myyass@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 3d
I'm in the same boat; can't wait to switch but I will be converting my 2003 Jeep. I like standard shift and off road capabilities. I'm still not sure what kind of a conversion I will do since it floods here so you know lithium and water aren't the best combination.
AviAdi@lemmy.world · 12 pts · 2d
180,000 MILES on my EV! Best purchase I've ever made. The amount of money saved on maintenance and fuel (got free charging at work and now a neighborhood hub has a free charger). Love it!!
Gamechanger@slrpnk.net · 10 pts · 3d
Thats basically what every poll/study I ever read online said...
moopet@sh.itjust.works · 8 pts · 2d
What do you mean about what you read online? Am I going to the wrong places? This stat sounds perfectly reasonable to me, and I don't even drive one.
bss03@infosec.pub · 7 pts · 3d
I want to have more electric range, but I have a Volt.
Chargers are rare around here, but not so rare all-electric is a problem.
I definitely do not want to go back to gas. It would be nice if my grid was cleaner.
Malica@lemmy.zip · 7 pts · 3d
My truck has been in the shop all summer, I'm driving a hybrid rental in the mean time and I feel like I'm using a Flintstones car. I miss my truck and I miss having electric even more.
Jackcooper@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
Why has it been in the shop for months?
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 2d
Likely a Ferd.
Malica@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 2d
Rivian
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2d
Bezos truck. No reason why they have parts shortages.
Malica@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 2d
It's a Rivian and waiting on parts is a bitch.
JamesTBagg@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
That's one of the electric vehicles that interests me but from the little I've read the company is horribly managed. I've no interest in a vehicle that could have no parts support in a few years.
dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works · 7 pts · 2d
I would never go back to ICE. But I do miss driving a car with a clutch sometimes.
MagicPterodactyl@lemmy.ml · 8 pts · 2d
Same. I love my EV as a commuter machine but I do miss having a more engaging car. If I can ever afford it I'd love to have a little weekend car like a Miata in addition to an EV that I drive 90% of the time.
IMALlama@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1d
Also same. I can even afford an older used Miata if I squint. But man, where would I put the thing? We've fortunate enough to have two cars, but storing a third would be very awkward. The current EV charger location means my car must be parked in the garage. My wife will not be bumped out and shuffling cars seems like a massive PITA.
I also live in SE MI and our roads are firmly grid oriented. I moved here daily driving a 96 Miata and got very little joy out of driving it here.
MagicPterodactyl@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 1d
I don't have a garage so any car I own would be living outside, right along with my EV and its charger. But it sounds like you wouldn't get any joy out of having a sports car so I think the best solution for you is to just not.
SchwertImStein@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 6h
ah yes americans and their acronyms, Internal Combustion Engine I'm guessing
dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 6h
Nah, I'm on the run from immigration and customs enforcement ;).
(Yeah you got it)
Mulligrubs@lemmy.world · 7 pts · 2d
I've tried them, and I despise touch screen controls. I don't want to go through menus to change settings.
This is a problem for newer gas vehicles also, the newest car I drive is a 2024 and I hate it. Constant beeping, changing settings reverts with an update, and so on.
If they make an electric car with analog controls and door handles, I'm in. But until then, my favorite vehicle is a 2008 ride with working buttons that don't reset.
WolfLink@sh.itjust.works · 9 pts · 2d
That’s been part of the pitch for the Slate
ContriteErudite@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 2d
I've owned an EV for a while now, and it has been a great car, but I share the same complaints. Almost every car these days, regardless if it's EV or ICE, is an over-engineered data-harvester.
I'm excited for the new Slate trucks. They'll have physical buttons, roll down windows, real door handles, and no infotainment system that tracks you and sells your data. They won't be perfect, but it's a lot closer to what I actually want in a vehicle.
FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
My EV has buttons for most stuff, and the rest of it I can use the screen, or just tell the car to do stuff
I'm lucky enough to live in a civilised country, so I have a BYD that yanks cannot yet buy
Randelung@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
2017 BMW i3, original version. Can't do shit, I upgraded with Android Auto and a rear camera. Just... the doors... But otherwise I love it.
Buddahriffic@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
Yeah, that's where I'm at, too. Though I'm caught between intending to drive my current car (2013) into the ground or trying to get something a bit newer (like 2018 or even newer) where I can find a pre-enshitification model to push off the "car dies and I have no choice" date.
betanumerus@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 2d
Modern cars have more options than ever, no analog control can cover them all. That's why menus are needed. That said, some newer cars do have analog controls too, combustion and EVs.
nek0d3r@midwest.social · 6 pts · 1d
Do people actually think EV drivers would want to go back to gas? Even intuitively it doesn't make sense. A lot of times it involves sinking some amount of time and effort into the home infrastructure. Of course someone wouldn't do that and then what, change their mind?
Randelung@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 2d
I don't know who would make the opposite claim. Everything I hear has always been "hardly anyone would go back".
mojofrododojo@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
there's a population of ICE lovers in this community who chime in every time with 'ev's suck' etc., who I suspect have never actually driven an EV or are being paid to fanboy smog.
wyldrstallyns@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 5 pts · 3d
So, how does this affect the rapidly growing percentage of people that can't afford a house to charge their vehicle at? Most LT rentals I've looked at in the last decade+ don't offer that amenity, and I'm not aware that affordable solutions are available for said renters... 🥲
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 10 pts · 3d
First, let's actually specifically define the problem. This has nothing to do with home ownership and everything to do with specifically living in rented apartments, not rental units in general. The typical person can meet 100% of their commuting needs by plugging an EV into a regular wall outlet. Unless you're a fringe case hypermiler, the same outlet you use to power or charge whatever device you're accessing lemmy on can cover your commute. So let's not blow this out of proportion and pretend it applies to everyone who rents.
We're talking only about the portion of the population that:
Some searching suggests there are about 23 million apartment units in the US. So we're really only talking about 10% of the population here. People renting other housing types may not be able to install a 240V charger in a garage, but they can literally just use any 120V outlet.
For the 10% of the population that lives in apartment units? For these folks, they can continue to do what they already do - fuel their vehicle at a paid facility. The same thing every single ICE vehicle owner does. The absolute worst case scenario for EV ownership is the that charging your EV becomes as big of a hassle as fueling up an ICE vehicle. And the more people own EVs, the more landlords have to discount their outdated apartments without EV charging capability. At some point we'll just pass laws requiring EV charging. In most areas they already have parking minimums. The cost to add a bit of wiring is a rounding error in the cost of building a parking garage.
wyldrstallyns@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 6 pts · 2d
I appreciate the writeup, though one salient fact is that rentals rarely offer parking spaces within reach of one's home, nevermind that they're often communal when they do. Until the traditional act of the fill-up changes to an at-home after thought, adoption'll continue to struggle, IMHO.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 2d
That's why I distinguished apartments from other forms of rentals. It's not all rental housing that's the issue, but specifically apartment units. Someone renting a single family home can charge the EV in the garage or driveway.
wyldrstallyns@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 2d
The lack of dedicated/assigned/permitted parking is not restricted to apartments alone, to be clear. Hell, even houses these days seem like they're less and less likely to have a garage, much less a driveway. 🥲
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 2d
This reply is extremely strange.
You see houses with driveways but no garages. You don't see houses with garages but no driveways. A driveway is a prerequisite for a garage. You can't access a garage without a driveway. And building single family houses without any offstreet parking is nearly unheard of nowadays. That was the kind of thing that happened in the streetcar suburbs early in the 20th century. But I don't know where you're seeing people building new houses without offstreet parking of any kind. Such houses would be unsellable in today's market.
Nobody is building new single family homes in dense city centers; the land is too valuable for that. People build houses today in suburbs, and car commuting is the almost universal norm in those places.
Seriously, where do you get the idea that people are building tons of single family homes without off street parking? Your reply just seems completely disconnected from reality.
Here are some actual numbers. The market standard for a new single family home is a two car garage. It looks like only about 7-8% of houses are built without at least a carport, and a good number of those would still have a driveway. And that share has only been going down with time.
It's rare that I say this, but you're just completely and totally wrong here. If I'm being generous, maybe you're in a different country with a radically different housing market. But where I'm at, if someone said this to me in person I would assume they had just had a stroke.
wyldrstallyns@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 0 pts · 2d
Yes, yes, I mixed up the "much less a" segment; it should've read the other way around, but thanks.
The point stands, friend.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 2d
Unfortunately I cannot parse what you're trying to say here at all. Maybe rewrite your original point and post it the way you're intending to. It's only a sentence or two. I can't imagine any interpretation of your correction that would make your original point, "the lack of dedicated/assigned/permitted parking is not restricted to apartments alone" true in anything other than a trivial sense. (Obviously you could find some rare houses built without parking, but they're the exception that proves the rule.)
The point still stands. 95%+ percent of new houses have off street parking. The lack of parking is almost almost exclusively an issue of apartments. It's not a problem for houses. It is almost exclusively a problem for apartments alone. There's no part off your comment that could be flipped around or read the other way that would make your original point true.
So no friend, the point certainly does not stand. It's fallen down dead.
sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip · 2 pts · 2d
Rather than trying to build things from first principles, you can just look at the studies that have already been done. This government study estimated that about 2/3 of households had access to dedicated parking spots.
Apartment access to charging infrastructure is so dependent on the specific property that it's hard to generalize across all of them. Plus, throw in the fact that some have access to chargers at work or at their regular grocery store that it's functionally pretty similar to having access to chargers at home.
I know someone who just moved into a rented garage where their assigned spot doesn't have any access to electricity (not even a normal outlet for level 1 charging) but where the ground floor has a public L2 charger in the same building, so that they can charge "at home" with a little bit of an added inconvenience of needing to move the car when it's done, so that they can leave it for others.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 2d
That is not the correct figure. I said 90% of the population has a place at their home to charge an EV. You posted a source asking what percentage of households have a garage or carport. These questions rhyme, but they are not the same.
It leaves out people who can park in driveways. It only considers covered parking. If you have any form of off street parking adjacent to your dwelling unit, you can run an extension cord to charge your EV. Additionally, households with parking will on average have more people per household than those without. (A family of four in a single family home vs one person living in a studio apartment. Housing units that hold larger numbers of people are also more likely to have access to personal off street parking.)
90% of the population has access to a place to charge an EV. It's really only an issue for the portion of the population of that lives in rental apartments, and that's only temporary until market forces or state initiatives solve that problem. You detailed why apartments have issues, but again, we're talking about just 10% of the population.
bonesawmcl@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
I charge at work, so for renters that is another option for covering the commute (and more). There's so many car parks without charging (and without solar roofs)... That's gotta change.
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 3d
That’s a lot of percent.
limelight79@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1d
I do real estate photography, and I've been in a number of newly built homes, and every single one of them had a 50 amp plug for an EV charger in the garage. To me, that says way more than any poll or whatever does.
Thebeardedsinglemalt@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
Realistically, how much does it increase your home electricity bill charging it? Is there enough of a drastic offset, even before the explosion in gas prices, or could it be considered roughly the same price?
betanumerus@lemmy.ca · 8 pts · 2d
How many km do you drive in a day? If you drive less than 50 km/day, I doubt you can reach $100/month no matter where you live. $50/month is very realistic. Electricity costs less than gasoline, distance-wise, almost everywhere.
It's the cost of running a clothes dryer overnight, but only if your charge is actually empty. Few people use their entire battery each day.
sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 2d
You'll have to look to your specific location and driving behavior, plus the specific statistics for your own vehicle.
But using US national averages of 14,000 miles (22,500 km) driven per year, $0.18 per kWh of electricity, and 30 kWh per 100 miles (112 MPGe or 3.33 miles per kWh): thats about $63 per month in electricity costs.
Using national average car fuel economy of 26 miles per gallon (9 liters per 100km), and an average price of $4/gallon, that same 14,000 miles per year would be a gasoline cost of about $180/month.
dltk@lemmy.world · 6 pts · 2d
Filled my roof with solar panels this spring and now my car is effectively solar powered....
Thebeardedsinglemalt@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
What was the cost of the panels, if you don't mind me asking
ContriteErudite@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2d
Not the OP, but I can share my experience after having solar for about four years.
I have a 33-panel system that cost around $28k after tax credits and rebates. I financed it for 12 years at 4%.
Before solar, my electric bill was around $260/month, and my solar loan payment ended up being about the same. The difference is that electricity rates have gone up over the last four years while my loan payment has stayed the same. During that time, I haven't paid for electricity consumed, but I do still pay monthly grid fees and service charges, which are around $6/month.
My utility doesn't pay for excess generation, but they credit the electricity I put back onto the grid against my usage. I have an EV that is driven about 20 miles a day, plus normal household electricity (AC, range+oven, etc). Charging at home every night only added about $10/month to my electric bill.
So for me, solar has been a good investment. New installations won't have the same tax incentives that I had, but depending financing and local utility generation policies, solar could still be break-even or better for some.
dltk@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2d
The panels were the least expensive part tbh. My area is sunny much of the year but we have had several power outages in winter and what I was originally seeking was redundancy, so I overspec'd the battery (the largest cost.) I also got a larger inverter than I strictly needed. So, if my goal was purely economic I could have reduced the spend by more than half. But for transparency 16kw of solar panels + 20kw inverter + 60kwh of batteries+ labor ran about €30k. This buys me assurance of being able to withstand significant outages to the grid any time of year. Since early June when the installation completed we've been totally off-grid. Ironically it has made me way more stingy with limiting my energy waste having a more detailed awareness of the impact various activities and appliances use. Ive got things automated so that it charges the car only during peaks when we have abundant excess production.
My advice would be to find a way to track your power usage. If you can monitor and graph it then you'll notice things like running the dishwasher takes close to 1kw. The more you know about your use the better you can determine how much solar you need to offset it, and also (the expensive part)'how much battery storage matters for you (for example overnight load.)
ContriteErudite@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2d
I drive my EV ~20 miles each day and charge at home overnight. It added roughly $10 to my monthly utility bill, but electricity cost in my area is lower than the national average. Overall, even with today's higher electricity costs, charging an EV at home is still likely to cost less than paying for gas for equivalent miles driven. That said, those savings will probably not offset the cost of purchasing a new EV.
I know a few EV owners that aren't able to charge at home, so they have to pay to use Tesla superchargers or other 3rd party charging stations; in those cases, they are paying a little less than they would for gas for equivalent miles driven, but it is much more expensive than charging at home.
glitch1985@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
It's much cheaper than gas in my area. I installed a hybrid heat pump water heater the same month I got my ev and the difference in electric canceled each other out (except now I don't pay for gas either so saving money overall).
mojofrododojo@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
it's increased my bill by ~$48 a month, give or take a few bucks either way.
for that, I've stopped gassing up completely, so I'm saving at least $150+ a month on fuel, probably more considering gas has gotten more expensive.
tpyo@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
As an owner of a hybrid I want to go full electric
If I could do wall power I could potentially run a cord from my back deck to my parking spot, if I'm allowed and if it would reach. I'd have to figure out how to prevent it from being a tripping hazard but that's minimal
I don't think I'd suffer range anxiety and some of the newer evs are sooo nice
mojofrododojo@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 1d
should be doable, the cable on our charger is like 14' long and I kinda wish it wasn't SO long lol because we park snugged up to the garage, it's always way more slack than needed.
iirc the brand is emporia, they're a common charger w/ bluetooth connectivity so you can see how much you're paying / how fast it's charging etc., complete with detailed metrics every month.
my only wish is that I could ev-ize my old honda element.
db_null@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 1d
I don't own a car but rent for special occasions. Recently got a petrol car after driving EVs for years, the experience is truly horrific in comparison. Driving EVs is a lot of fun
elucubra@sopuli.xyz · 3 pts · 1d
A couple, longtime friends of mine, retired one of their 2 diesels for an EV last year. They have a charger at home, and just this week ordered a replacement for the 2nd diesel. They've ordered a Corolla Hybrid. Not PHEV, plain Hybrid. I can't fathom why. I understand they may want to have a bit of ICE power there for hedging or whatever, but no plugin? They are in the process of building a new house, and it will have solar. I just don't get it. I live in a flat, and don't have convenient charging. I'm considering getting a new car (but not retiring my Skoda Octavia 1st gen, 480.000Km with 0 engine repairs except consummables, 3 years away from classic status), and my first choice right now is the KIA EV VAN. Convenient charging is my only problem right now.
LoafedBurrito@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 2d
A lot of EV people forget that most of us don't have $20,000 for a car, let alone a used one. The cheapest EV's as of today around me are $19,000 and have between 80k-120k miles on them. I bought my 2007 car for $5,500 11 years ago and i've put roughly $2200 in repairs into it, $1700 of that was for a complete suspension rebuild, so it would be much lower. My last car i had for 9 years, i put maybe $300 in repairs on it, and that was just brakes and fluids.
So i personally wont be amazed by an EV that has less maintenance, i would love to have the ability to charge/fuel up at home, and not wait at gas stations, that would be an awesome thing.
Once one of my ICE vehicles costs too much to repair, i hope EV's are more in the $10-15k range with lower miles. At that point the lack of gas would help offset the large investment up front. And yes, i know $15k is not considered a large investment for most EV drivers, but for those of us who don't make more than $20 an hour, it's a HUGE investment.
abcdqfr@lemmy.world · 9 pts · 2d
Dont forget your cost per mile of maintenance. ICE aint cheap to roll around forever. Emissions and tires/brakes will get ya. Idk, thought I had more substance when I started typing
hereiamagain@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 1d
I love the idea of EVs, drove one for awhile, but as a note, tires do wear out faster on EVs because they are heavier.
But yes gas is more expensive in most areas, and EVs save on brakes with regen.
mojofrododojo@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 1d
and oil changes, and transmission fluid, and alternator rebuilds... the complexity of ICE vehicles alone will be their downfall.
hereiamagain@sh.itjust.works · 0 pts · 1d
All true.
Still too expensive for your average Joe, unfortunately.
Even with all the extra costs, I can still get an older ice car cheaper. I just bought an 07 Honda Fit for $1300, plus a few hundred for some suspension work I did myself. The thing runs like a champ, and I'm averaging 42.5mpg.
I wish I could have an EV, but it's just not cost effective yet. I plan to put another 100k on this Honda before reconsidering the market.
mojofrododojo@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
nice, keep adding to the problem killing the planet.
betanumerus@lemmy.ca · 6 pts · 2d
No, EV people don't forget, but the nature of posting publicly is that some readers are closer to the fence than others. You're the only who knows how close you are to that fence.
MagicPterodactyl@lemmy.ml · 5 pts · 2d
Near me there are multiple Chevy Bolts selling for around $10k.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 2d
How much money do you reckon you spent on gas in the last 11 years?
$25 per week over 11 years works out to be $14,300.
terry_jerry@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 2d
Ya got a point, but it would need to be offset by charging costs.
dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works · 4 pts · 2d
I mean... a full charge costs me like $11 ish? Tesla stats tell me I drove 8300 miles last year And the total cost to me to charge was about $650.
If you can trust their calculator it says gas cost for a comparable car in my state was about $1350 for the same mileage, so $700 savings.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca · 4 pts · 2d
Yeah, but I should also offset the $5,500 by 11 years of (higher than normal) inflation, and also get more accurate numbers for the amount of money spent on gas ($25 seems a little low, doesn't it?).
I think it's fair to say that a used EV has a lower TCO than a used ICE car.
Sure there's more upfront cost and we have to consider the boots theory but if you can afford to buy a used EV, it's safe to say that it's cheaper in the long run.
Sunflier@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 2d
You're absolutely right about the long run. The problem is the up-front costs. The proletariat is living off of the Epstein class's table scraps.
mojofrododojo@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 1d
I didn't have the upfront cost of my car, really never have in my entire life - always got a car loan.
have you been paying cash for cars this whole time?
hereiamagain@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 1d
My last car was an 04 I bought 7 years ago for 3k and put like 120-140k miles on. Did all the maintenance myself.
It's at 300k now and getting cranky and unreliable. But it owes me nothing. On top of that, my commute increased, and with gas prices being high, the 20-25mpg ain't cutting it.
I just found a beautiful deal, an 07, 190k miles, but only $1300. Right now I'm averaging 42.5mpg over several hundred miles of driving. It needed a few hundred dollars of suspension work, but I did it myself. This is the way.
I want an EV more than anything. I can change at home but not work. Though there are free chargers downtown I could use on the weekends and evenings. But the used prices are still too high for someone like me.
I had a Volt for a couple years, loved it. Got it dirt cheap, it was broken. I fixed it. It got totalled one winter, a real shame. Can't afford to replace it.
Prices need to come WAY down before it's feasible for your average person. Even us who fix are own cars can't afford it, and we save tons!
M0oP0o@mander.xyz · 2 pts · 2d
What are people reading online? I have never seen anything about EV drivers going to gas. An EV is not cheap and most people I know stick with them even if terrible.
This seems like bait.
Ilandar@lemmy.today · 3 pts · 1d
There is a section of the internet that is very loudly anti-EV. I think it's a MAGA-aligned movement. If you watch a lot of EV-related stuff on YouTube, as I have been doing in recent months, the "quitting EVs" videos will pop up eventually.
M0oP0o@mander.xyz · 2 pts · 1d
I mean I hate how silly and connected EVs are, I can see the hate to a degree (I am also too broke to buy one). But I have not seen people who have already bought one say they dislike it.
Ilandar@lemmy.today · 4 pts · 1d
Is that an EV problem, or a modern car problem? Modern ICE cars also have massive displays, OTA updates, etc. I'm not sure EVs are much worse.
M0oP0o@mander.xyz · 2 pts · 1d
Oh for sure, I hate EVs due to them being new and shit nothing to do with being electric. I also hate new ICE vehicles for the same reason. I wanted an EV myself but short of making my own so far there is nothing I would ever own (maybe soon?).
I tried a few years ago for example to move to an EV motorcycle but found they don't make one that is not stupid, I need to ride 250km one way, spend the night and ride back. The route I take has zero service (like zero not just chargers but no gas, food or washrooms) stations for the last 190km so I would need about 300km range for it to work. Thought that would be doable since I don't need to go the speed of plaid and don't care about my 0-100km time, but nope, they don't make any EV bikes like that. They all are direct drive (no gearing) torque monsters built to go so fast your skin will come off. They even make some they claim are for adventures but have 150km range. The ones I looked at all have better city then highway efficiency do to them being geared like toys, They could have made one with a higher gear ratio (since the high rpms seem to require a stupid about of heat management at highway speeds) but noooooo, not one on the market is a real vehicle.
Ilandar@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 1d
I have been looking into EVs myself recently, but the secondhand market here still prices me out for now. In a way, I am content with that as it means I can enjoy my aging 2005 Forester for longer. I have a feeling I will badly miss the manual transmission and low tech, low distraction feel when I eventually switch over. Anything from around the mid-2010s onwards seems to be when cars started going massively downhill in terms of the cabin experience.
M0oP0o@mander.xyz · 1 pts · 1d
My newest car is a 2002. I have a bunch of old shit since I would rather be fixing and driving 5 shitboxes then deal with one new car. Newest I would go is 2008 (that auto bailout fucked the quality of cars)
Oh and I can't afford one.
Mycatiskai@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 3d
I will go back to gas for one reason only. I want a backup bush truck with little to no tech in it so if shit goes south I still have a vehicle that can't be shut down easily and fixed easily.
Just have to find the right Tacoma, T100, or 4Runner.
R4D4R@lemmy.ml · 12 pts · 3d
What's your plan for fuel then? Shit goes down, so does gas.
Mycatiskai@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 3d
Well the best thing would be a diesel Hilux. But those are extremely hard to find.
Mostly just a dream. We have two vehicles already, the idea of throwing money towards a third vehicle and insurance on the off chance we live long in an apocalypse is fanciful.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 6 pts · 3d
An EV is a hell of a lot better apocalypse option than an ICE vehicle. The last thing you're going to want to be doing in such a scenario is wasting your little precious food turning it into biodiesel. Just get some solar panels and charge your car's battery that way.
JamesTBagg@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Right, the vehicle that relies on the operational power grid is more apocalypse proof.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 pts · 2d
You have very poor reading comprehension and logical faculties.
JamesTBagg@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Solar won't charge a car at a practical useful rate unless you have soul access to a large grid. Poor they may be, at least I have the faculties.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 2 pts · 2d
You have a profound misunderstanding of how much panel area is required to power an EV. You don't need acres of solar panels. You don't need a large power grid. A carport with some solar panels and a clear view of the sky is more than enough to power a regular modern commute, let alone the limited amount of driving you would have to do in a collapse scenario.
And again, in what universe is having a few solar panels on your property more difficult that trying to make your own liquid fuels? In a collapse of civilization scenario, your highest and hardest challenge is just growing enough food to eat. And the only options for making your own liquid fuels are biofuels like ethanol and biodiesel. If you're trying to scrape together a subsistence diet in a collapse scenario, the last thing you would ever want to do is to turn your scarce calories into biodiesel.
I really do not understand your logic at all. In today's world, if you live in a single family suburban home, it is completely impossible for you to power your own ICE vehicle. Even if you dedicated your entire lot to growing soy or corn to make biofuel, there simply isn't enough surface area available. Hell, just putting solar panels on the land we currently use in the US to make corn ethanol would be enough to power the entire US vehicle fleet turned 100% to EVs. Meanwhile, millions of people currently drive EVs powered entirely by the solar arrays they have on their roofs. I know you don't need access to a large grid to power an EV, as millions of people are already powering their EVs off grid with just a few panels on their rooftops. Have you seriously never heard of this before?
Just how do you plan to keep your gas car running in a collapse scenario? There won't be anyone selling gas or diesel.
Look, I'm going to attempt to do the compassionate thing here. I'm going to assume you're acting in good faith but simply out of ignorance. I know it's long, but you really need to watch this video by technology connections. Please don't complain about the length. Be an adult, not a child. I'm trying to help you here. You need to watch this. It will clear up a lot of the misunderstandings you have about the practical realities of owning and powering EVs and the societal-level logistics involved.
I can forgive ignorance, but not wilful ignorance. I've now given you the tools to improve yourself, but now you will have to make the choice between being willfully ignorant or properly informed on this topic. I hope you can be a good person and make the right choice. My pessimistic side is guessing that you'll choose to remain comfortable in your ignorance, but hope springs eternal. Perhaps you can be saved.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Or the solar panels that any prepper already owns
BillyClark@piefed.social · 1 pts · 3d
That "article" is just a link to a 25 minute video. I'm not going to wade through a 25 minute video to find out what points they make.
But let's get real... The first thing people compare when they go from ICE to EV is how it affects their everyday lives. And immediately, plugging something in when you get home is far easier than going to a gas station.
Most drivers need short range vehicles for daily commutes. EV is just the far superior answer.
That's the first thing that everybody notices when they get their first EV. Once, I had to use an ICE rental car, and it just felt so silly going to the gas station.
likebudda@reddthat.com · 1 pts · 2d
I'm sure I'd like them but I love my manual transmission turbo 4. I turn 50 next year and my 2017 is still doing OK. With any luck, I can still get another manual transmission as the last car I personally drive. Hoping that by my late 60s self driving will be good and cheap enough to rely on.
DupaCycki@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 2d
The cheapest EV where I live costs about 30x more than the cheapest ICE car, and about 5x more than the average ICE car.
At the same time, it has half (or not even that) the range and most of the controls inside the touchscreen.
Almost everybody lives in apartments. No chargers in the underground garages or near outside parking spaces. I only know of 4 EV chargers in a radius of 2km around my home, and I live in my country's capital.
I think I'll stick to public transport and cycling. EVs are not the answer to any problem. All that work just to have marginally less ecologically destructive vehicles.
To me it just looks like smoking vs vaping. Improvement? I guess. Worth investing insane amounts of resources into? Yeah, probably not.
betanumerus@lemmy.ca · 11 pts · 2d
"30x more than the cheapest ICE car, and about 5x more than the average ICE car" - If you want anyone to take you seriously, you'll have to post models and prices.
Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 3 pts · 2d
They are Polish probably, because their username translates to "asstitties"
Looks like new cheap EV can be 100k in the local currency, ICE beaters can be like 3k. So the cursory numbers at a glance check out.
thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe · 3 pts · 2d
Well that's comparing apples with oranges then.
I can get a used Leaf or Zoe for £1600, and a new petrol Range Rover is over £100,000 so clearly EVs are more cost effective.
Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 2d
There are no used beater EVs in Poland
https://en.guazi.com/blog/insight/used-electric-cars-poland.html
Asstitties is completely correct about their analysis of the Polish used car market. They are nowhere near the tipping point of when it will make financial sense to purchase one.
I'm in Canada and the cheapest EV is less than 50k new, the cheapest new ice is 25-30k. It's definitely worth it, I'm in Toronto and level 2-3 chargers are plentiful, there will be less/different per km costs.
abrasiveteapot@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 1d
Yeah, you Canucks have been getting screwed by the Yanks on this subject long before Trump took the mask off. I'm sorry you live next to a bully. Hopefully Carney will improve things.
However that doesn't mean you can extrapolate North American experience to Europe, they're utterly different markets that have had the phase out of ICE written into law for years and have been actively pursuing it.
I'm sorry but your personal experience isn't relevant to a
CanadianPolish exampleEdit to correct, left error with strike through 'cos its funny (yes canadian experience is relevant to canada of course lol)
Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 1d
Poland seems a lot different than here.
https://www.autotrader.ca/cars/reg_on/cit_toronto/ft_electric?offer=N%2CU&cy=CA&damaged_listing=exclude&desc=0&sort=price&ustate=N%2CU&zip=Toronto&zipr=100&lat=43.70011&lon=-79.4163&atype=C&search_id=10j4nmorvg2&size=20&srsltid=AfmBOor-ErrbLmltE7EddTUtZfEj5iKkogvDSbJ2EdVXgk0huSLBTQ2J
There's a ton of stock on very low cost older EVs here, I'd have an easy time finding something used that would work for me. I probably should have looking at some of these listings...
thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe · 2 pts · 1d
AI slop article with all the usual AI slop logic issues.
A subset of the issues because I don't have the time or the interest to poke every hole.
It doesn't address the initial apples to oranges / beater to brand new ridiculous comparison because it only considers prices of recently new BYD and Tesla (2024). Comparing a 15 year old car to a new car on price whether they are EV or ICE is just stupid
Your own AI slop link admits you can get older imports in from the rest of EU - usually Germany because of proximity and wealth. Something that used to be extremely common only a few decades ago and is only recently reducing most probably due to the increase in Poland's wealth. So saying older EV beaters are unavailable is straight up untrue.
The focus on battery health is both one-sided and ill-informed. Plenty of older ICE cars have massive costly issues - ask AUDI owners about timing belts and what that does to an ICE when they (very expensively) break. Furthermore you can easily check the health of a battery in almost all EVs - so no surprises on the motorway at 120km/hr when it goes bang and stops. You buy something that you know the state of (or dont buy it).
The focus on battery health is also wildly overcooked - battery issues almost always surface quickly (as they are usually build faults), and get fixed/replaced under warranty. Plenty of studies show that most EV batteries will last 150-300,000 miles/200-400,000 Km (links below) - longer than the expected life of most cars (average about 125,000 miles / 200,000Km before they are scrapped)
The REAL issue with comparing an EV beater with an ICE beater is that EVs have progress at a lightning fast rate over the last 20 years - early EVs like the leaf against a recent EV is like a model T against a Lamborghini. Whereas ICE changes in the last 20 are pretty small. A leaf has a shitty tiny battery compared to what you can get now - it is very definitely worth buying as new as possible, particularly given the mileage and hence the number of years you can reasonably expect to get
https://evinsightdaily.com/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last-real-world-data-and-battery-degradation-2026/
https://voltchek.app/blog/ev-battery-degradation-statistics
https://www.gadgetreview.com/300000-kilometers-and-still-going-the-engineering-secret-extending-ev-battery-life
If you like I can generate an AI slop article to match yours and pull apart all the holes one by one - the problem with them always is you have to do multiple iterations before they stop saying "good input, I didn't dig into that, let me have a look" (actually that's not quite the wording Claude uses - hmm I instantly recognise it when I see it but can't yet play it back - oh well you get the gist)
Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 1 pts · 1d
The link was just an example man. I don't speak Polish I didn't look up any sources in Polish.
https://plc.auction/auction/from-pl/fuel-gasoline
https://plc.auction/auction/from-pl/fuel-electric
I see a ton of listings for sub 10k for ice, very few in that range for EVs.
I'm trying to say asstitties has a credible perspective.
thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe · 2 pts · 1d
It's only credible because you're taking a broken logic point and moving forward.
The broken logic is the comparison of a beater with brand new and an assertion that EV beaters are unavailable.
Your second link doesn't prove anything either way
First problem is I can't filter by price unless I'm registered, so I'm interested as to how you did so. Secondly the first link you provided states that the majority of beaters are sold on car lots not via auction (where you'll generally find the more expensive cars and if I'm not mistaken -edit missing words - that's exactly what you find on your second link). This link, in its own words is to facilitate the direct purchase of international cars from places like South Korea and the US, people aren't paying £3000 shipping to bring in a £1000 car. The same as grey market imports in the UK are always rare stuff you can't get locally.
You don't speak Polish, OK. You're Canadian, you have to have at least cursory french (it's mandatory right ?) do a search in Belgium and France for EVs under €3000 - that will give you a pretty solid proxy for what is available in Poland - for decades second hand cars went East to the former Warsaw Pact countries. That flow has slowed into Poland as Poles are much richer on average now, but it still exists and hence beater prices are fairly levelled across the EU bloc due to relatively free flow of goods (there are barriers but they aren't too bad)
(Scroll down the page it's at the bottom)
"PLC Auction provides direct access to international auctions of used vehicles (damaged, repaired, and undamaged)."
"One of the main risks when buying a vehicle from abroad is unforeseen expenses. The calculator on the website helps determine the final price of the car at the bidding stage. The calculation takes into account:
mojofrododojo@lemmy.world · 2 pts · 1d
your stack of strawmen there is huge, but this turd cherry on the shit sundae reveals how silly the entire argument was from the start.
we get it, you don't like 'em, go suck on a tail pipe and save the rest of us your exhaust
JamesTBagg@lemmy.world · 0 pts · 2d
No shit, people that wanted a boring car got a boring car and are satisfied with their boring car. Has anyone even claimed people are abandoning their EVs?
Not that I mean boring as a slight, many people see their car as just a utility. It gets them from point A to point B maybe to point C then back to A at the end of the day.
People that enjoy driving or "car culture" are going to have little interest outside of performance hybrids or electrified classics.
dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works · 3 pts · 2d
I'm not sure that's true. Maybe for like a Nissan leaf or something but the guys rolling around in cars with like the plaid performance packages and stuff are enjoying the road and teleporting over it. Getting motorcycle torque on demand in a sedan is pretty neat.
That is admittedly not every EV owner though.
Ilandar@lemmy.today · 1 pts · 1d
You're sort of just proving their point with that example. The people who own manual ICE cars enjoy a lot more about driving than just "put foot on pedal make go fast".
Sektor@lemmy.world · -2 pts · 2d
Because they can't sell?
404found@lemmy.zip · -4 pts · 3d
My hesitation with an EV other than the battery catching fire and having to burn itself out, would be driving long distance on vacation and being forced to charge my car instead of a getting a quick fill up and continuing my trip.
KindnessIsPunk@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 3d
Some modern electric cars can get 500km on 30 minutes of charging from most available chargers. It might take a change to habits but range anxiety is much less of a concern than it once was.
As for the fire risk, yeah EV fires are dangerous but incredibly rare especially with second generation EVs. It's just highly publicized when it happens because it's a new technology and people don't trust new things... And probably a little bit of oil industry narrative pushing.
chillpanzee@lemmy.ml · 2 pts · 3d
What cars do that?
KindnessIsPunk@lemmy.ca · 1 pts · 3d
Ahh right I used cars when I should have said EVs in general, it's basically just BYD's newer cars. For trucks there's Chevy's Long Range trucks (they do it by charging 2 battery packs in parallel as I understand it), Rivian also gets close at around 400 - 450km.
That being said most NA domestic options are costly even with incentives and depending on where you're located BYD might be a non-option.
404found@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 2d
Makes sense. Sounds like things have come a long way
madkins@lemmy.world · 5 pts · 3d
Depends on your thoughts on "long distance", but with a bit of planning, you can plan some fun stops to tack on a couple hundred miles of range. A round of indoor putt putt, shopping, a meal, or whatever. I like to stop every three hours or so anyways. What ticks me off is that the price of "fast" charging feels exploitative. It's literally more expensive than gas despite being less convenient and less ubiquitous. I just spent about $34 for 202 miles of range. My ICE vehicle would have been $23ish for that same mileage. Sorry for the rant. I say all this to say, it's a bit intimidating at first, but long trips are still doable and getting better and better with the addition of more fast charging spots. Hopefully, competition starts bringing the price down.
404found@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 2d
I would be annoyed too. You're probably right about a change of habit though. It wouldn't be the end of the world to stop somewhere to eat and charge.
a4ng3l@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 3d
Long trip charges and waking up with 16% battery a Monday morning ahead of work sucks. I’ve been dealing with it for about 4 years already thanks to my work provided EV6.
Still, I would not go back to ICE. It’s a temporary trade off really.
isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zone · -2 pts · 3d
With the range of modern EVs, you're either stopping to rest long enough to charge it, or you're a reckless driver that should have your license taken away. On road trips, you should stopping every 200-300 miles or so. You should take a 20-30 minute break every 4-6 hours to rest. You're piloting thousands of pounds of metal screaming down the highway at superhuman speeds. You need rest. You should be taking breaks on long road trips. Just stop and get a meal while you wait for your car to charge. This isn't that complicated.
404found@lemmy.zip · 1 pts · 2d
Settle down Dad. I was just stating my hesitations about EVs. You're right. You win. I'm sorry
blitzen@lemmy.ca · -5 pts · 3d
I don't doubt the stat, and it's encouraging. But as a point of reference I will be one of the 6%. The depreciation on my current EV is substantial enough that it makes sense for me to consider an ICE car (one that depreciates very little, likely used) for my next car.
tabularasa@lemmy.ca · 11 pts · 3d
Do you change cars often? Depreciation doesn't matter when you drive a car into the ground.
Kolanaki@pawb.social · 7 pts · 3d
The money saved on not buying gas all the time more than makes up for any depreciation anyway.
blitzen@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 3d
Not necessarily. I've had my [used] EV sedan 48 months, and it's depreciated $23,000 in that time. That's $480/month in depreciation alone. I wasn't paying that in gasoline even in my relatively gas-guzzling 4Runner I had before (a vehicle famous for how little it depreciates.) I was spending about $350 in gas per month with the 4Runner.
I'm not saying it was a bad move that I traded in the 4Runner for the used EV; at the time I needed the lower monthly outlay of cash more than I needed car equity. But boy does it sting seeing that $23k and counting.
Dogyote@slrpnk.net · 3 pts · 2d
What used EV depreciated $23K in four years?
blitzen@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2d
Tesla Model Y. Granted, I'm comparing the price I paid (CarMax) to the current CarMax value, so in reality it's less than $23k. And I put a fair number of miles on the car, so that's an issue too. I also missed out on any of the EV credits (bad timing on my part), and the loss of the credit definetly reduced the value of the car.
But my point is that, despite all the great things about EVs and the societal and environmental impact the switch to electric has had, for me personally I'm extremely turned off at the relatively high depreciation of all EVs. When I say my next car will likely be a gasoline powered car, it's not because I don't believe in the future of electric vehicles. It's a) a used small economical gas powered hatchback with low depreciation may (at least for me) offer a lower total cost of ownership than a comparable EV, and b) all new cars and all EVs feel like spaceships to me, and I just want a car.
ilinamorato@lemmy.world · 4 pts · 2d
Teslas have depreciated far more than the category average. EVs in general are still slightly higher than the industry average, but unfortunately the CEN (Chief Executive Nazi) has tanked the value of the vehicle you bought.
blitzen@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2d
That's a good point. I guess what I'm getting at is that while averages are important metrics, the average EV depreciation isn't applicable as I've yet to find an EV with low depreciation (that would match the vehicle I'd like to be my next car.) That, and the spaceship thing I'm totally over. I'd jump on the Slate truck if that form factor would fit my family.
I totally don't want any of my comments to be taken as I'm anti-EV. I'm most certainly not. Just trying to give my perspective on why I'm personally stilll looking at a gas powered car.
blitzen@lemmy.ca · 3 pts · 3d
5 or 6 years. But I don't typically buy cars new either. I prioritize reliability and safety as much as strict dollars and cents.
That's not quite true. Even if you "drive it into the ground" (which I don't like to do), there's still the amount-paid / years-you-drive-it equation that holds.
bonesawmcl@lemmy.world · 3 pts · 2d
If you want to prioritize safety, you'd basically need to drive an EV at this point. The low CG of the battery pack and its added structure do provide significant benefits when it comes to roll over resistance and side impact safety.
Kanzar@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 2d
What car did you buy?
mellibird@feddit.online · 0 pts · 2d
I am with you. I leased an EV so I could see if it made sense to purchase. The amount its already depreciated is just insane. On top of, I'm a bit more rural and don't have many charging options if I want to do a trip. We have to use my partner's ICE car for any car trips. I can also only trickle charge at home, which makes it harder. I've already decided I'm going to buy a used hybrid when I'm done with my lease. Makes the most sense at this point in time, for me at least.
blitzen@lemmy.ca · 0 pts · 2d
The number of people downvoting me (and you) is disturbing. Neither of us are anti-EV, we’re only explaining why its not working for us personally. And we’re speaking from experience, not simply saying anti-EV things.
Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca · -9 pts · 2d
I think that EVs have come a long way but might require a couple more generations to sort themselves out. A friend of mine once said that tech usually needs three generations to mature and cited light bulbs as an example. Gen 1 was incandescent, provided light but was hot and costly. Gen 2 was florescent, not hot, less expensive but had some nasty chemicals inside. Gen 3, now with LEDs are cheap, cool, and clean.
I think EVs are somewhere at Gen 2.
Edit: Just to note, I'm more of a bike and public transit person than ANY kind of car.
echodot@feddit.uk · 18 pts · 2d
I don't know anyone who was holding out on lightbulbs untill LEDs
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2d
I still use candles..no data spying.
ThePantser@sh.itjust.works · 2 pts · 2d
Many technologies were not possible until their invention. So on a way.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works · 1 pts · 2d
There were folks who held out on electric lighting until incandescent. The first widely used electric light was the carbon arc lamp, invented in the 1800s (as in, 1800-1809) by Humphrey Davey, and put into practical use in the 1870's. It creates an intense broad spectrum light including more than a little UV. Not really suitable for home lighting though often used in outdoor spaces. Per Technology Connections, incandescent electric light was praised for successfully mimicking the appearance and form factor of gas light.
Oh by the way: adoption tended to follow infrastructure. A few rich people would electrify their houses as a flex, but most folks adopted electric light as their towns electrified. This started in major cities first and then filtered out to the sticks. East coast cities in the US were lit with electricity before the dawn of the 20th century, and there were people lighting their homes with kerosene well into the 1950's.
It turns out that electric devices aren't that appealing to folks who don't have a suitable place to plug them in. looks directly into camera
Squirrelanna@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 0 pts · 2d
Not as much of an investment as an EV
echodot@feddit.uk · 2 pts · 2d
I don't know about that. When I was a kid and we were still on incandescent light bulbs a filament bulb would be maybe £25 (or whatever your local currency is, the actual values don't really matter). By the time LED bulbs had come out that price had gone down to maybe £3 for a filament bulb, but LEDs were about £30 so a 10 x cost increase. But it was worth it because the LED bulb lasted more or less forever.
Most EV cars are around double the price of an equivalent ICE car, that a 2 x cost increase. But there is a lot less of an immediate benefit to an electric vehicle over a traditional engine vehicle. The fuel is cheaper, but the car is more expensive and fuel prices haven't risen enough yet to really cancel that out. Clearly we need to start a few more wars in the middle East.
betanumerus@lemmy.ca · 9 pts · 2d
A friend of mine says my EV is fully sorted out and you're making this up. "Gen 1" "Gen 2" and "Gen 3"? 🤣
echodot@feddit.uk · 1 pts · 2d
Well there aren't really any generations because they're all basically the same thing, it's mostly just regulations and common sense that need to be worked out. For example the Nissan leaf was a truly stupid vehicle in every way, it used a weird proprietary charger that nothing else supported, and it had the storage capacity of an electric toothbrush.
Later EVs were considerably better vehicles, but I wouldn't really call that Gen 2 because all that really changed was that a standard had been identified for charges (not even an international standard, just a few local ones) and a decent amount of batteries had been put in the car. But essentially the same technology.
sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip · 6 pts · 2d
Imagine sitting out the use of electric light bulbs from 1900 until 2010, just in the hopes that one day they'd be better.
News flash: your "gen 1" light bulb was better than kerosene lamps from the beginning.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world · 1 pts · 2d
Also there were many generations of each of those. Carbon filament incandescent sucked. Eventually incandescent found a way to be longish lasting and white enough. It was dirt fucking cheap by the end as it's main benefit if you didn't mind replacing them every month.
Gen 1 fluorescent was the long flickery bars that only saw use in offices. It got slightly better over time. Then early compact fluorescent bulbs still were kinda greenish and flickery and couldn't handle the rapid cycling a closet for example might experience, much less outdoor conditions. They lasted longer than incandescent but were always going to be more expensive than it and had the worst color rendering of any major electric general use home lighting technology.
Then LEDs are a whole other thing. For a long time you could have any color you want as long as it's red, then amber was an option. Later green came around, before much later blue did. Once there was blue we could make white using either RGB addition or phosphors and slowly moved towards LED light bulbs, which at first were fine. Like, yeah early LED bulbs were better than incandescent or fluorescent, but they were expensive, less durable, and didn't have as good of light quality as we'd expect today.
These technologies are as different from each other as gas cars to hydrogen cars to electric cars.
Also gen 1 of electric cars is over a hundred years past. And if that doesn't count it's the 90s EV that people loved but GM destroyed all they could of them. In that framework Gen 3/2 is the early Nissan Leaf era. We're well into gen 3 of EVs at the very earliest.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · -1 pts · 2d
And not as reliable as they used to be.
Thebeardedsinglemalt@lemmy.world · -1 pts · 2d
LEDs might be less expensive to run but they certainly have a lot of upfront costs and depending on what you get they don't put out as much light.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca · 2 pts · 2d
you can get LEDs at any lumen output.